Fundamental aspects of Black Clover / Part 2/5? (Ki (vital energy and magical power)

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Hello, following up on my proposals from the other topic (which wasn't accepted), this time I want to talk about magical power and ki.

Spoiler: Ki ,Vital energy

Ki is the flow of vital energy that exists in everything, from natural objects in the world (such as magma and stones) to human actions (such as muscle contractions, the gaze of people), being the generic term for any release of energy, whether from living or non-living things. Ki is the source that produces yoryoku, which is magical power. The manipulation of ki in the verse should grant the following abilities:

All the characters:

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Energy manipulation, life manipulation, Chi Manipulation : Ki is the flow of vital energy that people unconsciously use to produce and manipulate magical power/yoryoku.​

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Sensitive to ki :​

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Enhanced Senses : People sensitive to ki can read a person's emotions and also see invisible people.​

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Extrasensory Perception : people sensitive to ki can read the flow of vital energy in others.​

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Information Analysis , Precognition : Those sensitive to ki have the ability to predict their opponents' next moves by reading their breathing, muscle movements, gaze, life force, current emotional state, and even their slight presence, with all their senses combined. Their ki perception allows them to sense even inanimate objects, such as stones.​

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Users of Zetten :

Energy manipulation, life manipulation , Chi Manipulation enhanced: Zetten is an advanced ki manipulation technique that even experienced yojutsu/magic users cannot learn, even after years of training.​

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Increased damage, Energy Projection, Explosive aura : Zetten is a concentrated eruption of explosive power.​

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Afterimage Creation : Zetten can create afterimages.​

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Spoiler: Magical power

The magical power of Black Clover is one of the base energies of the entire Verse power system; it's the ability to influence substances and refine them into magic. Although it may seem like normal Magic Verse, in Black Clover it possesses very cool characteristics that were very well explained in the movie "BLACK CLOVER: THE SWORD OF THE WIZARD KING" ,where the sword in question, ELSDOCIA, has the ability to absorb and release magical power. However, it gains several good abilities beyond absorption and projection, which should scale to magical power in general, such as:

Magic, energy manipulation, matter manipulation, at least macro-quantum : magical power is the power to influence substances that can be refined into magic, and this extends to light magic (photons), lightning (ions), even shadow magic (non-existent substance). Even the fire magic of a peasant like Magna is capable of causing hydrolysis (a macro-quantum chemical-physical phenomenon) because it has the exact composition of fire magic.​

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Information manipulation Type 1, Soul Manipulation Limited : Elsdocia may have access to the knowledge and a fragment of the soul of those whose magical power she absorbs.​

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Aura overwhelming : When a spell is activated, the magical power creates aura that causes damage to its surroundings.​

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• Power Nullification : The aura of magical power is capable of nullifying magic.

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NPI ,Mind Manipulation : when attacking Conrad with pure magical power absorbed by Elsdocia, Asta forced his consciousness out of his body.​

sensitivity to magical power:

Extrasensory perception, information analysis : users of magical power can sense the magical power of others and thus obtain various information about the individual such as magical power level, magical quality, magical affinity, etc.By reading the magical power of a grimoire, it is also possible to obtain information about the user's spells.​

Resistances :

Magic, reality warping : Everything Zagred says becomes reality, even affecting living beings. The intensity of the effect corresponds to the amount of his magic that exceeds that of his opponent, meaning that if the amount of magic Zagred imposes in his words is less than the magic of his opponent, it will have no effect.​

(This is accepted here.)

agree:​

Neutral:​

disagree:​

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[Mommyleona]

Pretty sure alot of this has already been accepted

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Pretty sure alot of this has already been accepted

Yes, I know, but I thought it was a good idea to put it in the topic.

Edit : and I also propose revisions to the justification.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Magic, energy manipulation, matter manipulation, at least macro-quantum : magical power is the power to influence substances that can be refined into magic, and this extends to light magic (photons), lightning (ions), even shadow magic (non-existent substance). Even the fire magic of a peasant like Magna is capable of causing hydrolysis (a macro-quantum chemical-physical phenomenon) because it has the exact composition of fire magic.

None of these people from which this specific abilities of Fire, Light or Lightning Magic even have Macro-Quantum Matter Manipulation to begin with — Light Manipulation is listed as Light Manipulation, Same as Lightning Manipulation etc.

Not only is the Hydrolysis reaction not something achievable via fire magic alone (It required electricity being run through the water prior by luck) isn't even something he's achieving by actually manipulating matter, it's done via basic scientific principles... This is equivalent to giving anyone with a bottle of water, jumper cables and a lighter Matter Manipulation on a Macro-Quantum level...

Also there's no proof any user of the sword even has the knowledge on the process of hydrolysis to begin with...

Magic, reality warping : Everything Zagred says becomes reality, even affecting living beings. The intensity of the effect corresponds to the amount of his magic that exceeds that of his opponent, meaning that if the amount of magic Zagred imposes in his words is less than the magic of his opponent, it will have no effect.

This reads like a weakness/condition of Zagreds own magic rather than a boon/resistance for anyone else

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

None of these people from which this specific abilities of Fire, Light or Lightning Magic even have Macro-Quantum Matter Manipulation to begin with — Light Manipulation is listed as Light Manipulation, Same as Lightning Manipulation etc.

Not only is the Hydrolysis reaction not something achievable via fire magic alone (It required electricity being run through the water prior by luck) isn't even something he's achieving by actually manipulating matter, it's done via basic scientific principles... This is equivalent to giving anyone with a bottle of water, jumper cables and a lighter Matter Manipulation on a Macro-Quantum level...

The manipulation of macro-quantum matter comes from them using magical power to "influence substances" that are refined into magic. With the existence of light and lightning magic, it's clear that the "substances" in this case are at the macro-quantum level, and this is something that all magic must have in its refinement/creation, since low-level characters like Magna can also cause reactions like hydrolysis, which means that his fire magic must also be at this level of matter manipulation.

Regarding Elsdocia, the text turned out a little differently than I expected.

This reads like a weakness/condition of Zagreds own magic rather than a boon/resistance for anyone else

Yes, it seems so, but it also proves that the amount of MP interferes with reality warping.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

The manipulation of macro-quantum matter comes from them using magical power to "influence substances" that are refined into magic.

They can only do that in specific and very limited ways which in no way constitutes macro-quantum matter manipulation.

All uses of electricity manipulation are inherently manipulating ions but we do not give them matter manipulation without actual reasonable feats of such... All uses of light manipulation are inherently manipulation photons but we do not give them matter manipulation without actual reasonable feats.

With the existence of light and lightning magic, it's clear that the "substances" in this case are at the macro-quantum level, and this is something that all magic must have in its refinement/creation, since low-level characters like Magna can also cause reactions like hydrolysis, which means that his fire magic must also be at this level of matter manipulation.

Again as I pointed out Magna inducing a hydrolysis reaction is not a feat of matter manipulation and instead just a basic application of physics.

The person they were fighting created real water which was electrocuted by Luck then hit with a fireball by Magna.

Claiming that this is a feat of matter manipulation is equivalent to claiming a third year Chem student with a Bunsen burner is a matter manipulator because they could light it then chuck the open flame at the electrocuted water to result in hydrolysis.

Magna's magic did literally 0 manipulation of matter at all, he just lobbed a fireball at a pre-prepared glob of electrocuted water... Again this is the most asinine reach possible because the same effect would have occurred of you lobbed a ******* lit torch at the water.

I don't think you understand what constitutes a power.

Yes, it seems so, but it also proves that the amount of MP interferes with reality warping.

Not really, it "proves" that Zagreds has a weakness/limitation and nothing more.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

They can only do that in specific and very limited ways which in no way constitutes macro-quantum matter manipulation.

All uses of electricity manipulation are inherently manipulating ions but we do not give them matter manipulation without actual reasonable feats of such... All uses of light manipulation are inherently manipulation photons but we do not give them matter manipulation without actual reasonable feats.

Again as I pointed out Magna inducing a hydrolysis reaction is not a feat of matter manipulation and instead just a basic application of physics.

The person they were fighting created real water which was electrocuted by Luck then hit with a fireball by Magna.

Claiming that this is a feat of matter manipulation is equivalent to claiming a third year Chem student with a Bunsen burner is a matter manipulator because they could light it then chuck the open flame at the electrocuted water to result in hydrolysis.

Magna's magic did literally 0 manipulation of matter at all, he just lobbed a fireball at a pre-prepared glob of electrocuted water... Again this is the most asinine reach possible because the same effect would have occurred of you lobbed a ******* lit torce at the water.

I don't think you understand what constitutes a power.

Yes, it's limited, but it's still macro-quantum matter manipulation. The scan I use from the author's explanation makes it very clear how it works: "magical power is the power to influence substances that can be refined into magic." I know that light or lightning manipulators don't receive macro-quantum manipulation just because they control light and lightning, which are composed of ions and photons, but everything on the Wiki should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. In Black Clover, the general context of magic is that characters who can manipulate light or lightning are doing so by manipulating the "substances that compose them."

Magna's situation is merely to prove that magic in general has a "real physical composition,"at the macro-quantum level not that he is gaining macro-quantum manipulation by causing hydrolysis.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Yes, it's limited, but it's still macro-quantum matter manipulation.

No it isn't... "limited" in the sense that they are not actually manipulating any of these elements at a micro-Quantum level but just manipulating them regardless is in of itself manipulating "Ions" or "Light".

Firing off beams of light & forming weapons from light are about as complex as Patri's light manipulation gets which is in no way macro Quantum matter manipulation in the same way firing off jets of air or making weapons from it is not matter manipulation at the molecular level.

You're are just wasting everyone's time with this nonsense.

The scan I use from the author's explanation makes it very clear how it works: "magical power is the power to influence substances that can be refined into magic." I know that light or lightning manipulators don't receive macro-quantum manipulation just because they control light and lightning, which are composed of ions and photons, but everything on the Wiki should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

They are evaluated on a case by case basis and in this case they are literally just not manipulating anything on a macro-quantum level to begin with.

You're argument boils down to:

Magic Power is said to "influence substances" [Meaningless and irrelevant to qualify for Macro-Quantum Matter Manipulation] = Influencing Lightning or Light with Magic Power is Micro-Quantum matter manipulation because Light is made of Photons and Lightning is made of Ions.

My point is that this line of reasoning applies to literally every ******* application of these abilities.

The term "Substance" just denotes a kind of matter with uniform properties not that they are manipulating individual Ions or Photons.

In Black Clover, the general context of magic is that characters who can manipulate light or lightning are doing so by manipulating the "substances that compose them."

Literally ever application and manipulating of Light or Electricity is manipulating the substance they are composed off to actually prove macro-quantum matter manipulation you have to show an effect acting on the level of individual Ions or Photons.

Magna's situation is merely to prove that magic in general has a "real physical composition," not that he is gaining macro-quantum manipulation by causing hydrolysis.

Except it doesn't actually do that or remain relevant to the topic.

The reaction was achieved because the water they encountered was from a specific magic that made real water [Something they emphasis on the explanation implying this isn't normal which makes sense because creating real elements isn't usually the norm unless you get into True Magic] and even at that has no relevant to proving macro Quantum matter manipulation.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

No it isn't... "limited" in the sense that they are not actually manipulating any of these elements at a micro-Quantum level but just manipulating them regardless is in of itself manipulating "Ions" or "Light".

Firing off beams of light & forming weapons from light are about as complex as Patri's light manipulation gets which is in no way macro Quantum matter manipulation in the same way firing off jets of air or making weapons from it is not matter manipulation at the molecular level.

You're are just wasting everyone's time with this nonsense.


They are evaluated on a case by case basis and in this case they are literally just not manipulating anything on a macro-quantum level to begin with.

You're argument boils down to:

Magic Power is said to "influence substances" [Meaningless and irrelevant to qualify for Macro-Quantum Matter Manipulation] = Influencing Lightning or Light with Magic Power is Micro-Quantum matter manipulation because Light is made of Photons and Lightning is made of Ions.

My point is that this line of reasoning applies to literally every ******* application of these abilities.

The term "Substance" just denotes a kind of matter with uniform properties not that they are manipulating individual Ions or Photons.

The "matter with uniform properties" in this case refers to ions and photons because that's what makes up light and rays.

The reaction was achieved because the water they encountered was from a specific magic that made real water [Something they emphasis on the explanation implying this isn't normal which makes sense because creating real elements isn't usually the norm unless you get into True Magic] and even at that has no relevant to proving macro Quantum matter manipulation.

If Magna's magic doesn't have a "true composition"—because that's a property only of "true magic"—why is it capable of causing hydrolysis, which requires the "exact composition" to occur? This is a problem of interpreting how true magic works, and it's not something I'd like to discuss in this thread. If you disagree with the manipulation of matter, OK, I'll put you in the disagreement section about that; we don't need to complicate the topic with six hundred more mental arguments that end up in the same place.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

The "matter with uniform properties" in this case refers to ions and photons because that's what makes up light and rays.

And as I said OVER and OVER again:

This logic applies to literally every single application of Lightning and Light Manipulation.

Lightning doesn't suddenly stop being made of Ions because you can't actually manipulate it at the macro-quantum level and neither does light.

Literally every quantity of a substance from the lowest possible to a planets worth of it can be categorised as a "Substance" if it's of uniform properties.

An Iron atom doesn't stop being a "Substance" when we start taking about four grams of iron instead so no, the use of the word "Substance" alone is completely and utterly irrelevant in trying to achieve what you want.

Search up the definition of "Substance" on Google right now and tell me what sentence is used as an example for the definition:

[Spoiler it's]

a steel tube coated with a waxy substance"

Now tell me does this waxy substance bring applied mean they are manipulating things at molecular level because the smallest particles of this that maintain uniform properties are each individual molecule of this substance.

I see your problem now... You think the word Substance means "smallest quantity of a type of matter" so you saw it used and assumed they were taking about ******* individual Ions and Photons.

Well that's wrong, stop bringing it up.

If Magna's magic doesn't have a "true composition"—because that's a property only of "true magic"—why is it capable of causing hydrolysis, which requires the "exact composition" to occur? This is a problem of interpreting how true magic works, and it's not something I'd like to discuss in this thread. If you disagree with the manipulation of matter, OK, I'll put you in the disagreement section about that; we don't need to complicate the topic with six hundred more mental arguments that end up in the same place.

Magna's magic produce heat which is all that's required for the reaction to occured besides voltage running through water which was provided by Luck prior to magna throwing a fireball at the water.

You severely misunderstand the actual point if my argument.

It not being "Real" fire doesn't mean it shares 0 properties with real fire, just that it will only be attributed those it has shown. "Heat" the catalyst for the reaction is a property magna's flames here so the reaction occured.

Yes I disagree, I just want to point out why which boils down to the fact treating Magna as manipulating matter for throwing a fireball into a bubble of electrocuted water is about as sensible as calling any idiot with a torch within reach of jumper cables and a fishtank a Macro-Quantum Matter manipulator

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

And as I said OVER and OVER again:

This logic applies to literally every single application of Lightning and Light Manipulation.

Lightning doesn't suddenly stop being made of Ions because you can't actually manipulate it at the macro-quantum level and neither does light.

Literally every quantity of a substance from the lowest possible to a planets worth of it can be categorised as a "Substance" if it's of uniform properties.

An Iron atom doesn't stop being a "Substance" when we start taking about four grams of iron instead so no, the use of the word "Substance" alone is completely and utterly irrelevant in trying to achieve what you want.

Search up the definition of "Substance" on Google right now and tell me what sentence is used as an example for the definition:

[Spoiler it's]

Now tell me does this waxy substance bring applied mean they are manipulating things at molecular level because the smallest particles of this that maintain uniform properties are each individual molecule of this substance.

I see your problem now... You think the word Substance means "smallest quantity of a type of matter" so you saw it used and assumed they were taking about ******* individual Ions and Photons

Substances are "any portion of matter" by definition; my interpretation suggests that magical power can influence substances that compose light and rays. The term "substance" here exists as a "particle," and not as the smallest existing part.

It not being "Real" fire doesn't mean it shares 0 properties with real fire, just that it will only be attributed those it has shown. "Heat" the catalyst for the reaction is a property magna's flames here so the reaction occured.

Yes I disagree, I just want to point out why which boils down to the fact treating Magna as manipulating matter for throwing a fireball into a bubble of electrocuted water is about as sensible as calling any idiot with a torch within reach of jumper cables and a fishtank a Macro-Quantum Matter manipulator

An idiot isn't creating a flashlight, cables, and battery from scratch, much less with a fictitious energy that allows influencing substances. That's the point. And if Magna's fire magic burns, it emits heat, which makes it "not real"?And you misinterpreted the situation shown. Sally specifically speaks of Dorothy's magic being real because it's made of dreams within the dream world. She never questioned the physical composition of Luck and Magna's magic, Your interpretation makes the entire hydrolysis situation seem stupid and unnecessary, and is inconsistent with what is shown.

 

[FroYoSans]

Dude swears he's not wanking BC but is unironically trying to argue that literally anyone with magic has at least "macro quantum matter manipulation". This has got to be one of the most absurd things I've seen in scaling.

I mean holy God it is literally JUST a CHEMICAL REACTION you're acting as if Magna, Luck or Sally saw the atoms around them and decided to arrange the individual ions of lightning, the molecules in water, or the molecules needed for the chemical reaction in fire. NOTHING is being manipulated here, no one just pieced everything together molecule by molecule, Atom by Atom, and decided it was gonna happen. I mean **** MAGNA AND LUCK DIDN'T EVEN KNOW A REACTION WOULD OCCUR you cannot convince me that people who can manipulate matter on a MACRO QUANTUM SCALE, wouldn't know some basic reaction

I promise you that the author did NOT intend for these characters to be able to manipulate matter on a macro quantum scale based on a simple chemical reaction

And if Magna's fire magic burns, it emits heat,

So here's something you might not be aware of...but there's not a single fictional universe I can think of that applies the use of "fire magic" and doesn't have it burn or emit heat...BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE MAIN PROPERTIES OF FIRE WHO IS SHOOTING A COLD FIREBALL? YOU REALIZE IF A MAGIC FIREBALL DIDNT BURN OR EMIT HEAT IT WOULDNT LOOK ANYTHING LIKE FIRE RIGHT? RIGHT??

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Dude swears he's not wanking BC but is unironically trying to argue that literally anyone with magic has at least "macro quantum matter manipulation". This has got to be one of the most absurd things I've seen in scaling.

I mean holy God it is literally JUST a CHEMICAL REACTION you're acting as if Magna, Luck or Sally saw the atoms around them and decided to arrange the individual ions of lightning, the molecules in water, or the molecules needed for the chemical reaction in fire. NOTHING is being manipulated here, no one just pieced everything together molecule by molecule, Atom by Atom, and decided it was gonna happen. I mean **** MAGNA AND LUCK DIDN'T EVEN KNOW A REACTION WOULD OCCUR you cannot convince me that people who can manipulate matter on a MACRO QUANTUM SCALE, wouldn't know some basic reaction

I promise you that the author did NOT intend for these characters to be able to manipulate matter on a macro quantum scale based on a simple chemical reaction


So here's something you might not be aware of...but there's not a single fictional universe I can think of that applies the use of "fire magic" and doesn't have it burn or emit heat...BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE MAIN PROPERTIES OF FIRE WHO IS SHOOTING A COLD FIREBALL? YOU REALIZE IF A MAGIC FIREBALL DIDNT BURN OR EMIT HEAT IT WOULDNT LOOK ANYTHING LIKE FIRE RIGHT? RIGHT??

It's just a skill mechanic for creating expensive magic; I'm not suggesting they're manipulating the opponent's matter at a macro-quantum level. They're exaggerating the reaction to something simple. It's like magic verses that manipulate cause and effect to form a fireball; matter manipulation can be put the same way.

 

[God_of_perversion]

It's just a skill mechanic for creating expensive magic; I'm not suggesting they're manipulating the opponent's matter at a macro-quantum level. They're exaggerating the reaction to something simple. It's like magic verses that manipulate cause and effect to form a fireball; matter manipulation can be put the same way.

Do i have macro quantum matter manipulation because i can do chemical reactions at my home? Like just compare your justification to the justification of other characters,for example Daewi han has acepted macro quantum matter manip because he literally control the force that binds quarks togther.Does your justification sound nearly as reliable as his?

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Do i have macro quantum matter manipulation because i can do chemical reactions at my home? Like just compare your justification to the justification of other characters,for example Daewi han has acepted macro quantum matter manip because he literally control the force that binds quarks togther.Does your justification sound nearly as reliable as his?

Everything must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis; no verse will be treated the same. But if you want to compare, look at Luffy's profile, which has "macro-quantum transmutation" due to transmuting lightning. This isn't uncommon on the Wiki, and Black Clover, despite everything, never used scientific terms from our world to explain things within the verse. Take the case of hydrolysis, for example; the word hydrolysis was never mentioned, but the reaction of decomposing water with lightning and then rapidly heating it is indeed hydrolysis.

Things like electrons and photons will never be mentioned in Black Clover because the verse has its own nomenclature for those aspects.

 

[FroYoSans]

It's just a skill mechanic for creating expensive magic; I'm not suggesting they're manipulating the opponent's matter at a macro-quantum level. They're exaggerating the reaction to something simple. It's like magic verses that manipulate cause and effect to form a fireball; matter manipulation can be put the same way.

That's not the same at all, it's literally JUST a CHEMICAL reaction. If one manipulates cause and effect to create a fireball THAT is manipulation of causality, what they're doing is just basic chemistry

 

[FroYoSans]

Everything must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis; no verse will be treated the same. But if you want to compare, look at Luffy's profile, which has "macro-quantum transmutation" due to transmuting lightning. This isn't uncommon on the Wiki, and Black Clover, despite everything, never used scientific terms from our world to explain things within the verse.

This entire example makes no sense, not only is there more reasoning than just that but that's because HE LITERALLY MAKES LIGHTNING A PHYSICAL HOLDABLE SUBSTANCE he doesn't just make a reaction happen

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Disagree w this thread
Sonoftanavast9 and FroYosans make the most sense and they saved my ahh for writing a giant novel worth of text as to why I disagree

 

[Arkenis]

There's gotta be a rule against making crts like this. Why not put time into a detailed Mana page instead?

 

[Vietthai96]

What Sonoftanavast9 has said is correct

 

[AyOgUyS]

disagree, macro quantum matter manip over what is basically just fancy chemical reactions seems like a bit of a stretch ngl

 

[SJ360playz]

My first black clover comment

 

[SJ360playz]

I disagree with that macro quantum matter manipulation stuff. Think of it like this... Anyone else can do thesame. Magna just followed scientific procedures in verse. Regardless of if it was hydrolysis based on black clover terms we know it's a scientific theory on how matter should behave. Sally herself makes this obvious because her entire thought was "if this works then this is real" so even in black clover, the general logic behind hydrolysis exists even though it's interpreted a something different.