Veldanava Key Divisison - [TenSura LN]

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Goodmorning/evening everyone

Today I wanted to divide the Pre-Creation key for Veldanava, and also move some a abilities​

Veldanava Key Divisison

Spoiler: Key Divisison

So there's two forms of Veldanava (not God) that should be divided.

One is the version that created the World Language/VoTW and then the Cardinal World. The second version is the Veldanava who descended into the Cardinal World he had created and could no longer use Void Collapse.

Though it was a mysterious voice, it resonated in Velzard's core.

"?!"

She reacted unconsciously, but it didn't turn into words.

It seemed so unrealistic that she was slow to grasp the situation.

(Is this Rimuru helping me? Like Guy said? It's a lot different from how I imagined it...)

It was all too similar to the "World Language" that Veldanava created.

However, she instinctually understood it was something completely different. After calming down, Velzard realized she could guess the true identity of the "voice". It was likely a Manas, much like Twilight who had been parasitizing her.
،V23C1

I never intended to use this except when creating a new world. That was a trump card for an emergency. “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Dominion (Initialize Heaven)” It is a technique that initializes the world and reconstructs it.

When Veldanava gave birth to the cardinal world, what he used was an ultimate divine act called “Paradise Genesis (Beginning Eden).
”By using this secret art, Veldanava lost “Void Collapse” and ceased to be “Omniscient and Omnipotent.”

Even so, he succeeded in descending into the world he had created.Now that he can no longer handle “divine acts,” the next best thing, “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Dominion (Initialize Heaven)," is the strongest divine technique that Veldanava can wield.

With this, it should have been possible to destroy all worlds, including Rimuru.
V23C5

Tier Difference

Spoiler: Tier

The tier remains the same, as the second version can still use another power to destroy all worlds, including the Cardinal World.

I never intended to use this except when creating a new world. That was a trump card for an emergency. “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Dominion (Initialize Heaven)” It is a technique that initializes the world and reconstructs it.

When Veldanava gave birth to the cardinal world, what he used was an ultimate divine act called “Paradise Genesis (Beginning Eden).
”By using this secret art, Veldanava lost “Void Collapse” and ceased to be “Omniscient and Omnipotent.”

Even so, he succeeded in descending into the world he had created.Now that he can no longer handle “divine acts,” the next best thing, “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Dominion (Initialize Heaven)," is the strongest divine technique that Veldanava can wield.

With this, it should have been possible to destroy all worlds, including Rimuru.

Ability Difference

Spoiler: Ability Addition

There are a few differences between the abilities of each key (which is why it should be divided).

First is Creating the VoTW
This means this Veldanava created the very laws of the world instead of just manipulating them, this would give him Greater Conceptual Manipulation. This is the wording

Greater Conceptual Manipulation (Created the World Language, the Laws of the World)

So God key would lose this since it feels redundant and becuase it didn't create them directly:

• Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; The Great Spirits serve as source for all attributes, attributes are phenomena that govern every aspect of reality)

Another ability, which Rimuru would also get in his True Dragon key is Chaos Manipulation:

Originally, "Nihility Collapse" was a phenomenon that was impossible to control. It was as if Testarossa was forcefully using the "void" she had poured her heart and soul into controlling as pure energy. Nihility Collapse's true nature could be said to be of the chaos before the Abyss of Hell collapsed/beyond the collapse of the Abyss of Hell, or rather- "the chaos of before Hell was birthed".

The keyword "beyond" was allowed here.

So the wording would be:

Chaos Manipulation (Via manipulating <Void Collapse>, which is Chaos beyond the collapse of Abyss of Hell, before the birth of Hell itself)

Clarification

Spoiler: Veldanava

The keys proposed have no relation to the All-One

“Don’t be ridiculous! I’m no longer alone! I reclaimed Veldanava and became one with him. I’ve become omniscient and omnipotent!!”

Good grief. Luvelage is so utterly ignorant that all I can do is laugh.
He absorbed Veldanava and even went so far as to give himself a “name,” trying to return to the state of the “All-One,” yet in the end, he failed to attain omniscience and omnipotence.

Well, that was only to be expected. After all, your very existence itself is a contradiction.

The “All-One” exists precisely because it lacks contradictions, yet Veldanava possessed far too many of them. Having absorbed and integrated such a being, there was no possible way for Luvelage to return to the “All-One.”

«That is the truth.»

Right? It’s logic simple enough that even a child could understand it.
V23C5

Summary​

This is the summary of the above proposals:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ciel_Trinity439/nn

• New key for Veldanava
• Addition of Chaos Manipulation and Greater Conceptual Manipulation

Everything else remains the same:

• Veldanava's new key will have the range as 2-A for having Velgrynd's ability.
• His rating will remain Supergenius due to scaling above Rimuru's Raphael.

NOTE:

• In the translation, I changed some names to their localized official translations.
• Things not in the sandbox remain the same
• Nothing is added to that God key, but one ability was removed and moved to the new key.
• The name of the keys right now could be Post Apotheosis and Pre-Apotheosis. But if someone has another better suggestion then feel free to mention it.

Votes​

Agree: Elizhaa ,@Random-Helper323 ,SomebodyData ,Astral_Trinity439, Dark_Soul20189, K'rimuru, MetaChronos, PHANtomFELdway, Ultimuru, DrunkMan04, AlexSamDen, Sebas-S.P-san, Cipher72, Re5yh, korea1234 , Vesxpura , Lycoris4812 , Astral_void4 , PrimeHydra64 ,BoastJr , Community_Gamer , @Incomprehensibleexistence ,EldemadeDityjon

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

As discussed on discord, agree
Good job Ciel (⁠◠⁠‿⁠・⁠)⁠—⁠☆

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Finally, Veldanava is getting his separate keys... I will look into the thread later and give my thoughts.

 

[K'rimuru]

I completely agree with the points you make in this CRT

 

[MetaChronos]

Makes sense. I'll agree as well

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I still like pre-genesis and post-genesis more ngl.

 

[Ultimuru]

Agree

 

[Random-Helper323]

I'm not certain yet as I barely know the verse. I'll wait for some further input, okay?

 

[DrunkMan04]

Agreed with the name I gave on discord

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

On that note, how about making the key Pre Descent and Post Descent?
Since "descend" is directly from the novel, Apotheosis isn't

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

On that note, how about making the key Pre Descent and Post Descent?
Since "descend" is directly from the novel, Apotheosis isn't

before buying milk and after buying milk?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Can't we just go with the community and fandom name..

Pre creation and post creation?....

 

[Ultimuru]

On that note, how about making the key Pre Descent and Post Descent?
Since "descend" is directly from the novel, Apotheosis isn't

Rimuru's killer and Rimuru's victim

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

I'm not certain yet as I barely know the verse. I'll wait for some further input, okay?

ok

 

[AlexSamDen]

Can't we just go with the community and fandom name..

Pre creation and post creation?....

I also proposed it, but the arg against it is that Velda still continued to create worlds other than CW after descent

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

I agree

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Oh, right
I forgot to update Ln Raph's intelligence and to Supergenius (accepted already)

I'll do so my tonight

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

After reviewing it, most look fine, even though I disagree with some of the current interpretations for accepted abilities; it's something we can deal with on a later date.

However, there is one thing that's concerning me: why are we using feats and statements both before and after His "rebirth" as the same key, since I think it's pretty clear that it will bring some inconsistencies, since the "pre-rebirth" one was constantly growing weaker.

Also... a few other things... when it comes to skills, I really don't think we can assume "post creation" to have all skills, since we see him give them away, and we never see him use them again...

So I am against giving them to him without further evidence.

Also.... Where does this come from?

Supergenius (Far superior to Raphael)

 

[AlexSamDen]

Also.... Where does this come from?

See right above you

 

[Pluto321]

following

 

[Ultimuru]

, I really don't think we can assume "post creation" to have all skills, since we see him give them away, and we never see him use them again...

Rimuru described Veldanava as someone who govern all authorities (skills) in existence. We also see him using various abilities which belongs to different skills like resurrection (Asmodeus), soul seize (Beelzebub) suspended world (Sariel).

So I understand it as: He doesn't have every ability in existence as literal skill, but can use effects of all skills as his own power.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

After reviewing it, most look fine, even though I disagree with some of the current interpretations for accepted abilities; it's something we can deal with on a later date.

However, there is one thing that's concerning me: why are we using feats and statements both before and after His "rebirth" as the same key, since I think it's pretty clear that it will bring some inconsistencies, since the "pre-rebirth" one was constantly growing weaker.

This will need yet another CRT to be divided into more keys. Basically right now both pre and post reincarnation fall under Post Descent key

Also... a few other things... when it comes to skills, I really don't think we can assume "post creation" to have all skills, since we see him give them away, and we never see him use them again...

It was accepted in the previous CRT that he can realize the effects of all of them via Law Dominantion. And even if not, it falls under what I said above; another CRT after this one

Also.... Where does this come from?

Self-evident intelligence revisions thread

"At least Genius" seems safer than "Extraordinary Genius", as it is not self-evident enough for the second option. 🙏 Ain't the fact that he did all what i said while having years of poor nutrition, sleep and etc not be enough for the qualification? That is the root of my argument

vsbattles.com

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

snip

I am asking where the rating comes from for Veldanava, not Raphael.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

This will need yet another CRT to be divided into more keys. Basically right now both pre and post reincarnation fall under Post Descent key

It was accepted in the previous CRT that he can realize the effects of all of them via Law Dominantion. And even if not, it falls under what I said above; another CRT after this one

Lovely.... So more cleanup and follow-up threads.... Just what we need...

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I am asking where the rating comes from for Veldanava, not Raphael.

His computing ability should be above Raphael and maybe even Ciel, or at the very very least comparable

No! No, it can’t be! That slime is…
…someone who freely tinkered with ultimate skills, gave Velgrynd her freedom, and massively improved her own powers, evolving them to greater heights. No regular human could possibly have done any of that.
(Only my brother Veldanava could do anything so outlandish. If it were possible
for anyone else at all…)

(V15E)

Also cuz most Descent Velda still created all the other worlds and their laws

Lovely.... So more cleanup and follow-up threads.... Just what we need...

Indeed

 

[AlexSamDen]

Lovely.... So more cleanup and follow-up threads.... Just what we need...

Didn't you want our 3 CRTs to always be full

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

His computing ability should be above Raphael and maybe even Ciel, or at the very very least comparable

Here is the thing... This feat doesn't prove that conclusion at all... All it does is prove that Vedlanava could modify skills, and we don't even know in what way, or when...

So no, this is not enough.... (Also, originally Veldanava had Raphael...)

Indeed

pain...

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Here is the thing... This feat doesn't prove that conclusion at all... All it does is prove that Vedlanava could modify skills, and we don't even know in what way, or when...

So no, this is not enough...

It is... This is literally listed as an intelligence feat in Rimuru's profile:

Supergenius (Ciel have greater understanding and control over the system that manages the world, it was noted that it is impossible for anyone else except Veldanava who himself created the system that govern providence of the world)

And, then again, we ain't gonna assume that Great Sage, a mere unique, has more computational power than the reincarnated creator

. (Also, originally Veldanava had Raphael...)

Then he can just get it via that

Besides, he's gonna get nigh omniscience soon via Akashic

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

It is... This is literally listed as an intelligence feat in Rimuru's profile:

And, then again, we ain't gonna assume that Great Sage, a mere unique, has more computational power than the reincarnated creator

.... So the problem is even on Rimuru's profile got it... (The reason super genius was accepted was due to Infinity prison, requiring infinite data... not due to this...)

Then he can just get it via that

No, since he quite literally gave it away.... And let's not pretend that Raphael is not the "intelligence" of god, and widely to believe thhe one who controls over VoTW.'

Besides, he's gonna get nigh omniscience soon via Akashic

Then give it to him through that.

I will say this, I am FULLY against using the current justification for his intelligence.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don't have any problem with 2-A rating for now untill infinite timeline thread gets settled. But why you people scaling everything off of their Trump card as to their base sts without any explanation?

Where is the justification for the durability? Didn't he started activating his Trump card to kill off Rimuru who was posing a threat to him & why would his durability scales to his Trump card?

 

[Cipher72]

Agree with the proposals, my key suggestions were better smh bullies

 

[Re5yh]

Looks good, I agree

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I don't have any problem with 2-A rating for now untill infinite timeline thread gets settled. But why you people scaling everything off of their Trump card as to their base sts without any explanation?

Where is the justification for the durability? Didn't he started activating his Trump card to kill off Rimuru who was posing a threat to him & why would his durability scales to his Trump card?

It was listed as 2-A since that was how it was before this revision
The new key doesn't add anything to dura

But I'll try making another justification since I like being detailed.
He should be comparable to Ivarage, who according to himself can survive Initialize Heaven, or at least heavily implied.

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Would someone please be able to translate this and confirm whether the translation given in the image is generally in line with the original scan? Thanks in advance! Change where into “here,” other parts are fine

vsbattles.com

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Agree with the proposals, my key suggestions were better smh bullies

It indeed was
Sadly fuse doesn't like that word

 

[korea1234]

I've read this novel before, so I read this post and it seems fine. I agree with the content of this post.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It was listed as 2-A since that was how it was before this revision
The new key doesn't add anything to dura

But I'll try making another justification since I like being detailed.
He should be comparable to Ivarage, who according to himself can survive Initialize Heaven, or at least heavily implied.

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Would someone please be able to translate this and confirm whether the translation given in the image is generally in line with the original scan? Thanks in advance! Change where into “here,” other parts are fine

vsbattles.com

Thats seems he is not affected by the ability since he is other half of Veldanava I don't see why that's gonna be Durability rather than innate resistance type of kind

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

[]Summary[/]This is the summary of the above proposals:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ciel_Trinity439/nn

Added some scans to the sandbox and did some minor corrections

Thats seems he is not affected by the ability since he is other half of Veldanava I don't see why that's gonna be Durability rather than innate resistance type of kind

At that point we'd just list it as dura since she's blatantly surviving world destruction while being inside it... Why would we even assume it's some sort of "resistance". Initialize Heaven isn't Void Collapse (absorption of everything), so we don't have any reason to assume it's not blatant destruction instead of, well, some hax

Note how Veldanava says he can't use selection like this. That's the act of making it so that some move to the next world as is. Veldanava can't do that now and neither can Ivarage (no feat), so ivarage's all by himself surviving that.

Other half can also mean they're talking about her being comparable to Veldanava because she's his other half

Ivarage is a she btw ⁠(⁠ ͡⁠°⁠ ͜⁠ʖ⁠ ͡⁠°⁠)

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Thats seems he is not affected by the ability since he is other half of Veldanava I don't see why that's gonna be Durability rather than innate resistance type of kind

I do not agree with this conclusion at all.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Thats seems he is not affected by the ability since he is other half of Veldanava I don't see why that's gonna be Durability rather than innate resistance type of kind

Why do we assume that this ability does not work on him, even though there is no statement of that kind?
What the context only says is that Ivarage is half of Veldanava, and that even after passing through this power he would remain alive / existent.
And the kanji means to survive / be spared.
Therefore, I do not agree with this conclusion.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Added some scans to the sandbox and did some minor corrections

At that point we'd just list it as dura since she's blatantly surviving world destruction while being inside it... Why would we even assume it's some sort of "resistance". Initialize Heaven isn't Void Collapse (absorption of everything), so we don't have any reason to assume it's not blatant destruction instead of, well, some hax

Note how Veldanava says he can't use selection like this. That's the act of making it so that some move to the next world as is. Veldanava can't do that now and neither can Ivarage (no feat), so ivarage's all by himself surviving that.

He is not saying anything about selecting or not for Iverage he said since he is his other half. Where are you getting this is due to Durability rather than innate resistance? Others are not part of his rather his creations so both are different cases. Logically it doesn't make sense he is trying to smoke his equal tier character (Rimuru)? with this attack. He only explained why Iverage would survive.

Other half can also mean they're talking about her being comparable to Veldanava because she's his other half

Ivarage is a she btw ⁠(⁠ ͡⁠°⁠ ͜⁠ʖ⁠ ͡⁠°⁠)

I don't see where this was mentioned though isn't Veldanava literally sealed her off with ease and Guy also bested her ? Why are you assuming she is equal to Veldanava?