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Kamen Rider Cosmology Scaling: Part 2 (Everything Else)

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BERRIES555

BERRIES555

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Hello everyone, if you've been following our activity here, it is known that Kamen Riders have recently undergone two revisions. A revision that upgraded our verse into 1-A and a revision that upgraded a cornerstone of our franchise. The rest of the verse will be covered in this revision, from Heisei Phase 1 to Reiwa.


  • Profiles Affected: Agito (Post Dai-Shocker), Ryuki (Post Dai-Shocker - Desire Royale), Knight (Rider Time: Ryuki - Desire Royale), Ouja (Kamen Rider Brave - Outsiders), Odin (Post-Oma Day - Outsiders), Ryuga (Desire Royale), Faiz (Post Dai-Shocker), Blade (Post Dai Shocker), Garren (Outsiders), Hibiki (Post Dai-Shocker), Kabuto (Post Dai Shocker), Den-O (Post Dai Shocker), Zeronos (Post Oma Day), Kiva (Post Dai Shocker), Decade (Post Dai-Shocker and Movie War 2010), DiEnd (Kamen Rider DiEnd), AR Kabuto (Post Resurrection), Kivala (Kamen Rider Kivala - Zi-O vs Decade), Apollo Geist (DCD) (Apollo Geist - Super Apollo Geist), G (Kamen Rider G)
    • Reasoning: This is a straightforward upgrade. During the events of Dai-Shocker and Movie War 2010, all the Riders from Kamen Rider Ichigo to Kamen Rider Decade gather together to fight against Dai-Shocker. Additionally, Kamen Rider Decade has demonstrated superiority over all of these Riders in his battles against numerous Showa and Heisei Riders. Now, why the 1-C rating? Simple: The many Riders included in the verse-wide slaughter that Decade included were ZO, someone who was accepted to be 100x Baseline 7-D. All the characters listed above would scale to ZO and would later get stronger as time progresses.


  • Profiles Affected: PunchHopper (Post Oma Day), Todoroki (Post Oma Day), KickHopper (Post Oma Day)
    • Reasoning: The characters listed above are considered to be 1-C (6-D) due to scaling to characters appearing in Kamen Rider Zi-O. Later in this thread, Zi-O Riders will have a 1-A rating, and as per wiki rules, we cannot simply powerscale people into 1-A as they need their own reasoning. As such, the three profiles provided will be downgraded from their 1-C rating back to their original values or simply removed altogether due to a lack of usable feats.







  • Profiles Affected: Zero One (Reiwa The First Generation) (Zero-One - ZeroZero-One), Ichi-Gata (Reiwa The First Generation)
    • Reasoning: Just like the other downgrades, these two Riders' only feats come from scaling and not from any other external sources. Due to the fact that the Riders they scale to are 1-A, Zero One, and Ichi-Gata will not be receiving a 1-A upgrade and will be reduced to the level of their original universe selves.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:
 
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I agree with the majority of this, with a few nitpicks.
BERRIES555 said:
Click to expand...
We may need to add a note to Agito, Kyosuke, and Gatack's profiles to explain that the 1-A stats come from the Ridewatches and are only exclusive to the Post Oma Day key, as people may wonder why other returning Riders in Zi-O do not have 1-A keys from fighting Zi-O guys.

BERRIES555 said:
  • Profiles Affected: PunchHopper (Post Oma Day), Todoroki (Post Oma Day), KickHopper (Post Oma Day)
    • Reasoning: The characters listed above are considered to be 1-C (6-D) due to scaling to characters appearing in Kamen Rider Zi-O. Later in this thread, Zi-O Riders will have a 1-A rating, and as per wiki rules, we cannot simply powerscale people into 1-A as they need their own reasoning. As such, the three profiles provided will be downgraded from their 1-C rating back to their original values or simply removed altogether due to a lack of usable feats.
Click to expand...
I'm inclined to side with removing their key entirely. Unlike the guys above, their only scaling comes from fighting Zi-O guys, which is insufficient per 1-A rule. Even if we put them at 1-C, that wouldn't make sense in Zi-O context and would just complicate the scaling further. Similar to what I said above, a note is likely required to explain why their appearance in Zi-O is removed.

BERRIES555 said:
  • Profiles Affected: Eternal (Another World),
    • Reasoning: The character listed has a feat of fighting Zi-O characters, who are 1-A. As per wiki rules, this feat would be invalid and considered an outlier. His stats would be returned to 2-C due to him destroying a standard universe.
Click to expand...
Another World Eternal is a weird case ngl.

1. He's technically another version of Eternal and that would warrant this version his own profile.

2. His scaling to Zi-O is due not only to fighting him but also to this Eternal's Maximum Drive's ability to destroy Swartz's Another Worlds, which are created by Neo Decade's 1-A power, which also spawned White Woz. In a nutshell, if Swartz created something with 1-A power that spawned beings on par with 1-A beings, i.e., Zi-O guys, it wouldn't be too far-fetched for them to be on that level.

I believe Another World Eternal can actually be upgraded to 1-A since he does have his own reasons to be on that level. However, all of his Another World feats and abilities should be moved to a new profile.

BERRIES555 said:
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I'm neutral about this.

The audience in the 4 Aces movie wasn't specified to be the Real World audience or just the 4-D Future Humans audience. Even if they do talk about the Audience in the context of the Real World, characters being empowered by a higher force wouldn't necessarily put them on the same level as that higher force.

While I haven't seen the film in a long time, I recall that XGeats was still able to hold his own against Geats Oneness in their fights without making it completely one-sided. This would imply that XGeats is High 1-A to some extent, thereby completely breaking the scaling chain.

If we apply the audience-empowering context to stageshows, where the Riders usually ask the audience to lend them their strength, this would give not only Geats Oneness but also nearly every Riders High 1-A empowerment for the same reason.

BERRIES555 said:
  • Profiles Affected: Zero One (Reiwa The First Generation) (Zero-One - ZeroZero-One), Ichi-Gata (Reiwa The First Generation)
    • Reasoning: Just like the other downgrades, these two Riders' only feats come from scaling and not from any other external sources. Due to the fact that the Riders they scale to are 1-A, Zero One, and Ichi-Gata will not be receiving a 1-A upgrade and will be reduced to the level of their original universe selves.
Click to expand...
Tbh, I'm inclined to the opinion to delete these two profiles for the exact same reasons as PunchHopper/KickHopper/Todoroki above.

Zero-One (Reiwa The First Generation) is a remnant from the time when Legend Riders' profiles were a thing, I'm surprised it hasn't been deleted yet. No good reasons for 1-A scaling and alt timeline shenanigans.

At best, There's Analytical feats of detecting the altered timeline and Acausality feat of Is remembering what happened in the movie despite everything being reset at the end could be put on the Zero-One main profile.
 
I was asked to look at this, but when someone says Kamen Rider I picture someone riding a caiman as in the crocodilian, literally no knowledge of the verse at all. Can someone break this down so someone who's never heard of the verse outside the VSBW can understand?
 
Looking through the CRT, I do have two questions:

1. Why don't Saber, Storious, and pretty much anyone who possesses a piece of the Almighty Book rated as High 1-A? Wasn't it agreed before?

2. Where would Narutaki scales at?
 
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Random-Helper323 said:
I was asked to look at this, but when someone says Kamen Rider I picture someone riding a caiman as in the crocodilian, literally no knowledge of the verse at all. Can someone break this down so someone who's never heard of the verse outside the VSBW can understand?
Click to expand...
To my best attempt to simplify this:

Kamen Rider is a huge franchise starting from 1975 up until today, currently reaching 40 series at the time this thread is made. Each series is being produced annually, with the TV series being the main one, along with numerous crossovers and spin-off specials. The franchise is split into three eras: Showa era (1975-1994), Heisei era (2000-2019), Reiwa (2019-ongoing). Because of the massive amount of works produced throughout the years, the thread was split into two parts.

The first thread deals with Showa scaling, which brings 1-C scaling into play. The reason for this is that Showa Riders can survive and nullify the Space Time Rupture System, which is said to erase all existence beyond space-time and dimensions, including all of the dimensions listed on the cosmology page (7-D), which were accepted here.

In this second thread, which will handle the next two eras: Heisei and Reiwa. Thanks to the previous thread, their scaling is simply brought over by crossovering with Showa Riders.
  1. All Riders vs Dai Shocker: The movie where every Riders up to Decade is brought together to fight against the main villains.
  2. Ghost: Appearance! The Mysterious Warrior!/Kamen Rider 1: Both movies brought back Kamen Rider Ichigo with his power-up form. They were aired during Kamen Rider Ghost's run, so all Riders from his series onward also get 1-C scaling.
  3. Girls Remix/Outsiders: These two are sort of their own spin-off series where they brought several previous Riders into one big crossover during Reiwa era.
    1. The scaling goes in this order: Ghost fights alongside Saber, Saber fights alongside Revice, Revice fights alongside Geats.
  4. Geats Extras: Kamen Rider Tycoon meets Kamen Rider Shinobi: Another spin-off featuring several Ninja Riders fighting together, with the appearance of Showa Riders Kamen Rider ZX to solidify the scaling even further.
(Yes, I'm using Youtube clips and reaction videos to save time)

1-A and High 1-A scaling are a little bit more tricky, though.
  • 1-A scaling originally came from this thread, where it's argued that Kamen Rider Gaim, after ascending to godhood, is 1-A. He is usually referred to as Man of The Beginning (MOTB)
  • Zi-O Riders would scale to 1-A due to the Ridewatch (page not fully updated yet btw), which contains not only a Rider's power source but also his or her entire history, essence, story, and so on. Gaim Ridewatch contains his power and nature as MOTB. Therefore, it scales all Ridewatch users to 1-A.
  • God Geats is getting 1-A for the reasons stated in the OP, aka he is described as having a similar existence to MOTB Gaim.
High 1-A is the tier that is reserved only for two types:
  • The Almighty Book: A concept in Kamen Rider that, like the Akashic Record, represents the sum of all ideas, possibilities, and concepts within the Kamen Riderverse. Further detail is on the cosmology page (Baseline High 1-A)
  • Kamen Rider Oma Zi-O: He has every single Riderwatch power, including that of Saber (High 1-A). Because of how Ridewatch works, he would also have the Almighty Book power (unfortunately, I can only find toy videos so I probably will get the actual clip later)
  • Shotaro Ishinomori/The Real World: Both have feats of transcending/viewing the entirety of the Kamen Rider verse as fictional, giving them one layer into High 1-A. Once again, detail is in the cosmology page.
That is basically what I can trim down. Are there any parts that you need us to elaborate upon?
 
Where another Kabuto ?
About kickhopper you could argue that he was amped by another ridewatch Kabuto
Sorry for my English
 
Random-Helper323 said:
I was asked to look at this, but when someone says Kamen Rider I picture someone riding a caiman as in the crocodilian, literally no knowledge of the verse at all. Can someone break this down so someone who's never heard of the verse outside the VSBW can understand?
Click to expand...
So Kamen means masked in Japanese. The official english translations have them be called Masked Rider. Rider is because they ride sick ass motorcycles that are a staple to the series (though the recent Japan laws on private and customized vehicles have reduced the riding scenes by a lot. First time seeing someone think of caimen from the kamen, but it's understandable. We do make jokes here and there about Men Riders (remove the ka from kamen, ???, then profit).

Or are you asking to break down the big ass cosmology scaling? Basically, the cosmology got accepted here, making almost everyone who interacted with The Place beyond Space-Time be 1-C (7-D). The Showa Cosmology Scaling thread makes it clearer that any modern riders (the ones being scaled here) have fought together/against the Showa Riders, meaning they scale along the lines of their AP. Most Riders fit the former category, and only a few other Riders go beyond it.

Saver's ascension caused anyone with a Saver System to ascend alongside him. Gaim's power from the Golden Fruit is far superior from the false one, yet the false one is enough to get Saver to 1-A, hence him also being 1-A.
The Ridewatches are able to absorb and obtain Gaim's entire everything, including what made him 1-A in the first place. Due to this nature, any Ridewatch users are 1-A, including those that transmute a Ridewatch into their transformation trinket, hence why certain characters like Agito are able to be 1-A despite normally not having the means (and this is temporary, like the Saver System).
Geats' ascension is similar in vein to Gaim's, the difference is that he transcended from death and logic as a whole.

Only a few characters scale to High 1-A for either of these reasons:
Those that actually got plucked out into the real world where the entire Kamen Rider franchise is considered fiction become that for obvious reasons, including any supporting character that doesn't actually fight.
  • Another similar reason (mainly for Geats) is that he is directly powered by the audience of the real world. Since the film where this feat happened are first shown in cinemas, it gives evidence that real life kids and some diehard adults empowered Geats to fight the big bad, despite having all his stats ripped from his d&d character sheet.
Saber's Almighty Book powers were absorbed into the Ridewatch similarly to the Gaim 1-A (besides the book being High 1-A, already accepted in the cosmology).

EDIT: James beat me to the punch.

SECOND EDIT: Decade's ridecard system is a Ridewatch before a Ridewatch, the only difference being that he's bestowed the respective Rider's entire powerset and abilities and whatnot instead of just absorbing the powers away. So he also gets 1-A from Gaim.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Tôi đồng ý với phần lớn nội dung này, chỉ có một vài điểm cần góp ý nhỏ.

Có lẽ chúng ta cần thêm một ghi chú vào hồ sơ của Agito, Kyosuke và Gatack để giải thích rằng chỉ số 1-A đến từ Ridewatch và chỉ dành riêng cho chìa khóa sau Ngày Oma , vì mọi người có thể thắc mắc tại sao các Rider trở lại khác trong Zi-O lại không có chìa khóa 1-A sau khi chiến đấu với các thành viên Zi-O.


Tôi nghiêng về phương án loại bỏ hoàn toàn chìa khóa của họ. Không giống như những người ở trên, khả năng tăng sức mạnh của họ chỉ đến từ việc chiến đấu với những người chơi Zi-O, điều này không đủ theo quy tắc 1-A. Ngay cả khi chúng ta xếp họ vào 1-C, điều đó cũng không hợp lý trong bối cảnh Zi-O và chỉ làm phức tạp thêm việc tăng sức mạnh. Tương tự như những gì tôi đã nói ở trên, có lẽ cần một ghi chú để giải thích lý do tại sao sự xuất hiện của họ trong Zi-O lại bị loại bỏ.


"Another World Eternal" là một trường hợp kỳ lạ, nói thật đấy.

1. Về mặt kỹ thuật, anh ta là một phiên bản khác của Eternal và điều đó đủ để phiên bản này có hồ sơ riêng.

2. Việc hắn có thể sánh ngang với Zi-O không chỉ là do đã từng chiến đấu với Zi-O mà còn do khả năng của Maximum Drive của Eternal này trong việc phá hủy các Thế giới Khác của Swartz, được tạo ra bởi sức mạnh cấp 1-A của Neo Decade, thứ cũng đã sinh ra White Woz. Tóm lại, nếu Swartz tạo ra thứ gì đó bằng sức mạnh cấp 1-A và sinh ra những sinh vật có sức mạnh ngang ngửa với các sinh vật cấp 1-A, ví dụ như Zi-O, thì việc chúng có sức mạnh tương đương cũng không phải là điều quá xa vời.

Tôi tin rằng Another World Eternal thực sự có thể được nâng cấp lên cấp 1-A vì anh ta có những lý do riêng để đạt đến cấp độ đó. Tuy nhiên, tất cả những thành tích và khả năng của anh ta ở Another World nên được chuyển sang một hồ sơ mới.


Tôi không có ý kiến gì về vấn đề này.

Khán giả trong phim 4 Aces không được xác định rõ là khán giả Thế giới Thực hay chỉ là khán giả của Con người Tương lai 4 chiều. Ngay cả khi họ nói về khán giả trong bối cảnh Thế giới Thực, việc các nhân vật được một thế lực cao hơn ban cho sức mạnh không nhất thiết đặt họ ngang hàng với thế lực đó.

Mặc dù đã lâu rồi tôi không xem lại bộ phim, nhưng tôi nhớ rằng XGeats vẫn có thể tự mình đối đầu với Geats Oneness trong các trận chiến mà không khiến trận đấu trở nên hoàn toàn một chiều. Điều này ngụ ý rằng XGeats có sức mạnh ở mức Cao 1-A, từ đó phá vỡ hoàn toàn chuỗi xếp hạng sức mạnh.

If we apply the audience-empowering context to stageshows, where the Riders usually ask the audience to lend them their strength, this would give not only Geats Oneness but also nearly every Riders High 1-A empowerment for the same reason.


Tbh, I'm inclined to the opinion to delete these two profiles for the exact same reasons as PunchHopper/KickHopper/Todoroki above.

Zero-One (Reiwa The First Generation) is a remnant from the time when Legend Riders' profiles were a thing, I'm surprised it hasn't been deleted yet. No good reasons for 1-A scaling and alt timeline shenanigans.

At best, There's Analytical feats of detecting the altered timeline and Acausality feat of Is remembering what happened in the movie despite everything being reset at the end could be put on the Zero-One main profile.
Click to expand...
Same opinion with James here though I would like to add Storious (perhaps Solomon too) to Saber High 1-A scaling as my previous proposal in the last revision of Saber verse.
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(Mod Input needed) Kamen Rider Saber Wonder Almighty, Tiering, Keys Revision

Starting up my Saber revisions again to make them usable again. They are an essential part of Reiwa, Outsiders, and Girls Remix scaling so its high priority to work on these now. I will work on post series stuff at a later time. Upgrade With the Toei Cosmology being accepted, Kamen Rider...
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I'm agree the eternal part is somewhat difficult for me to understand why he gets downgrade because his feats support with power to destroy zio variants and he's an another version of eternal on kamen rider w series
 
BERRIES555 said:
Profiles Affected: Gaim (MotB) (True Form), Ryugen (Saver System), Zangetsu (Saver System), Saver (True Forms), Megahex (Original Form - ZZZ Megahex), Drive (Type Fruits), Zi-O (Pre Grand Zi-O - Post Grand Zi-O), Geiz (Pre Grand Zi-O - Post Grand Zi-O), Black Woz (Pre Grand Zi-O - Post Grand Zi-O), Trinity (Pre Grand Zi-O - Post Grand Zi-O), Tsukuyomi (Kamen Rider Tsukuyomi), Oma Zi-O, Zi-O (Over Quartzer) (Kamen Rider Zi-O), Black Woz (Futuring - Another DiEnd), Decade (Neo Ver) (Kamen Rider Decade - Complete 21), DiEnd (Neo Ver) (Kamen Rider DiEnd), Ginga, Barlckxs, Another Zi-O (Another Zi-O - Another Zi-O II), Swartz (Another Decade), Another Ryuga, Kuroto Dan (Another OOO)
  • Reasoning: There are three reasons for this 1-A for the listed characters above. Either they are amped by Ridewatches, ascended into 1-A, or simply became stronger from a previous self who is already 1-A.
Click to expand...
Oma and OQ Zi-O should be High 1-A, because they possess Saber Ridewatch
BERRIES555 said:
Profiles Affected: Geats Oneness
Click to expand...
Disagree with this. Getting empowered by a High 1-A reality does not necessarily elevate you to that level iirc.

I also agree with James on deleting RTF profiles. We can move Aruto's stuff onto his main profile, since they're the same person.
 
EvoltOz said:
Disagree with this. Getting empowered by a High 1-A reality does not necessarily elevate you to that level iirc.
Click to expand...
Gaining power through a higher existence that views all possible structures within the cosmology as fiction or a story can be a strong justification for a Tier increase
 
Shadowslash125 said:
That should be rectified, by removing anything about motb from ex aid.
Click to expand...
Genm Corporation used data from previous devices and Kamen Riders to create newer devices, so I don’t think it can be denied that the Gaim Gamer device is on the same level as Kamen Rider Gaim himself.
 
Ren_amamya said:
Gemn programed many devices and projects the power of rider so it is actual power

And in ex_Aid page this key have same tier with "man of the Beginning"
Click to expand...
Genm did mimic all previous Heisei Riders up to Ghost, yes. However, nothing suggests that he managed to copy the power of MOTB Gaim.

Before you suggest that Genm can copy MOTB Gaim's power, keep in mind that this is an anti-feat for Gaim being 1-A in the first place because it implies that lower beings can copy his power and become as strong as him, which is against the rule for 1-A scaling.

The purpose of this thread is to revamp the scaling chain, so the link on the Genm page will be removed or changed.

Ren_amamya said:
Gaining power through a higher existence that views all possible structures within the cosmology as fiction or a story can be a strong justification for a Tier increase
Click to expand...
A tier jump to High 1-A would require stronger evidence than just getting empowered by High 1-A force. The very evidence against this is that Geats Oneness is still fighting XGeats (1-A), which should not be the case if he is High 1-A.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Genm did mimic all previous Heisei Riders up to Ghost, yes. However, nothing suggests that he managed to copy the power of MOTB Gaim.

Before you suggest that Genm can copy MOTB Gaim's power, keep in mind that this is an anti-feat for Gaim being 1-A in the first place because it implies that lower beings can copy his power and become as strong as him, which is against the rule for 1-A scaling.

The purpose of this thread is to revamp the scaling chain, so the link on the Genm page will be removed or changed.
Click to expand...
Oh okay I understand now


Jamesthetaker said:
tier jump to High 1-A would require stronger evidence than just getting empowered by High 1-A force. The very evidence against this is that Geats Oneness is still fighting XGeats (1-A), which should not be the case if he is High 1-A.
Click to expand...
Thanks for explanation but this two really fights?because I didn't seem in the series
 
Personally, Geats Oneness’s H1-A would be valid as again, it’s a higher plane of existence which sees Ace himself as fictional. Even an infinitesimal fraction of a single inhabitant of the Real World is infinitely superior to anything and everything Ace has access to.

As for XGeats fight against Oneness, I believe that’s an obvious outlier. Geats Oneness is a form that has less than 5 minutes of screen time and it wouldn’t make sense at a director’s standpoint for Ace to destroy Mela just from his sheer presence.

I do agree with the upgrade of AR Eternal to he 1-A and the deletion of some profiles
 
1 layers above baseline High 1-A.

Gemn, like what the others pointed out, copied the powers of an avatar of the MoTB. Not the true form.

Also, @EvoltOz, Oma should be outright High 1-A but Zi-O would be High 1-A only during the events of Decade vs Zi-O as that’s when he received the Saber Ride Watch
 
BERRIES555 said:
Personally, Geats Oneness’s H1-A would be valid as again, it’s a higher plane of existence which sees Ace himself as fictional. Even an infinitesimal fraction of a single inhabitant of the Real World is infinitely superior to anything and everything Ace has access to.

As for XGeats fight against Oneness, I believe that’s an obvious outlier. Geats Oneness is a form that has less than 5 minutes of screen time and it wouldn’t make sense at a director’s standpoint for Ace to destroy Mela just from his sheer presence.

I do agree with the upgrade of AR Eternal to he 1-A and the deletion of some profiles
Click to expand...
I still disagree with Geat Oneness being H1-A due to due to the vaguely of these "audiences", we all know that future people are "audiences" to previous era people (this theory is also support with Den-O theory), but they hold no superiority over Ace the Fox god. Melo and Mela created this game "world destruction" in order to entertain the future people who are lack of entertainment shows so it's make sense that they are the "audiences" in Ziin and Tsumuri words rather than any actual real world audience.
 
What about den o when he fight real world version of Another den o ?
Also why is geiz and woz didn't have real world version of them ?
 
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