Who would win in a hypothetical war between Time War era Time Lords and the Crimson King and his Todash Space Monsters?

[Jockey-1337]

Who would win in a hypothetical war between Time War era Time Lords (Doctor Who Universe) and the Crimson King and his Todash Space Monsters/Monsters of the Prim (Stephen King's Universe)?

Spoiler: Grok AI:

Overview of the Factions​

The Time War era Time Lords represent one of the most advanced civilizations in fiction, having escalated from observers of time to desperate warmongers capable of multiversal-scale destruction during their conflict with the Daleks. They possess unparalleled mastery over time, space, and reality itself. On the other side, the Crimson King is an ancient, immortal entity born from the union of Arthur Eld and a being from the Prim, embodying chaos and seeking to collapse the Dark Tower—the axis of the multiverse—to unleash primordial discord and remake existence in his image. His forces include the monsters of Todash Space (a dark void between worlds teeming with devouring horrors) and entities from the Prim (primordial chaos spawning demons, succubi, and eldritch beings like Mia and Maerlyn). This hypothetical war pits structured temporal dominance against chaotic, multiversal entropy.

Key Capabilities Comparison​

To evaluate the outcome, let's break down their respective strengths, weaknesses, and arsenals. The Time Lords operate like a highly organized military empire with time as their domain, while the Crimson King's side is more akin to an insidious, Lovecraftian horde driven by fate (Ka) and random cosmic forces.

Aspect	Time War Era Time Lords	Crimson King and His Forces
Leadership and Organization	Led by figures like Rassilon and the War Council; highly structured with conscription, resurrection loops (reviving soldiers millions of times per second), and strategic patterns (e.g., Pattern Nocturne for cautious strikes, Pattern Daylight for ambushes).	Crimson King as a shapeshifting overlord, relying on agents like Randall Flagg; forces are chaotic and decentralized, with monsters acting on instinct rather than coordinated strategy. He orchestrates through psychic influence and fate manipulation but lacks a unified army.
Core Powers	Time manipulation (loops, locks, scoops, chronic tripwires to age enemies instantly); reality-warping (altering timelines via the Matrix, creating paradoxes, possibility engines to connect realms); god-like resurrection and immortality grants (e.g., reviving Rassilon from the Matrix).	Immortality and shapeshifting; reality manipulation (eroding multiversal Beams via Breakers); psychic dominance (visions, influence over minds); tied to primordial chaos for spawning horrors. Forces include fate-weavers like the Random (manipulating events to cause disasters, e.g., undetected life-force cuts).
Weapons and Technology	Superweapons like the Moment (destroys fleets, time-locks wars), De-mat Guns (erase from existence), Omega Arsenal (N-Forms, Time Destructors to wipe eras, Annihilator for race-erasure), bio-engineered horrors (Vashta Nerada, Raston Warrior Robots), and empathetic weather to weaponize enemy rage.	No conventional tech; relies on eldritch entities: Todash monsters (devour wanderers in the void, escape via Thinnies—holes in reality); Prim demons (succubi, incubi, oracles with magical predation); connected horrors like Langoliers (eat past realities), Pennywise's Deadlights (mind-shattering), and Lovecraftian invaders (universe-destroyers resistant to erasure).
Military Forces	Vast fleets: Over a million Battle TARDISes (time-traveling warships), Black Hole Carriers, Dreadnoughts; armies of bio-engineered soldiers, allies (Thals, Sensorites, Great Vampires), and time-scooped historical forces.	Infinite but disorganized: Todash tunnel demons and void horrors (consume individuals/groups); Prim-stranded entities (adapted demons causing discord); psychics (planet-splitters, reality-warpers) and fate entities (Random forces generating "death-bags" for inevitable calamities).
Scale and Scope	Multiversal; fought across timelines, realities, and the Time Vortex; capable of seeding colonies through epochs, relocating planets (e.g., Gallifrey to a pocket universe), and ultimate sanctions to ascend to pure consciousness.	Multiversal via the Dark Tower; erodes Beams supporting infinite worlds; Todash/Prim threats invade via dimensional weaknesses, potentially flooding realities with chaos, but more insidious than direct conquest.
Weaknesses	Bureaucratic rigidity; vulnerable to higher cosmic entities (e.g., Old Gods like Fenric); internal resistance (e.g., against Rassilon's tyranny); reliance on tech that could be disrupted by fate manipulation or reality-eating forces.	Physical form can be diminished/trapped (e.g., aged undead state); relies on intermediaries (Breakers, agents) that can be targeted; monsters are instinctual and not always controllable; defeated in lore by mortal means (e.g., erased by an artist).

Analysis of a Hypothetical War​

In a full-scale war, the Time Lords' advantages in mobility and preemption would be decisive. With time travel, they could strike at the Crimson King's origins—preventing his birth from Arthur Eld and the Prim entity—or time-lock Todash Space to contain its monsters before incursions begin. Weapons like the Annihilator could erase entire races of Prim demons from history, while De-mat tech would handle reality-resistant Lovecraftian horrors by removing them from existence altogether. Their fleets could overwhelm scattered Todash invasions, using black hole carriers to collapse dimensional Thinnies or Vashta Nerada swarms to devour monster hordes in shadows.
However, the Crimson King's side poses unique threats through chaos and fate. Todash monsters could exploit weaknesses like the Eye of Harmony, flooding Gallifrey with void horrors if manipulated by Random forces to create "inevitable" disasters (e.g., a TARDIS malfunction opening a rift). Langoliers might eat timelines, countering Time Lord manipulations, while psychic Breakers could erode the structural "Beams" of the Doctor Who multiverse if analogous rules apply. The King's psychic influence might corrupt Time Lord minds, turning regenerations against them or inciting internal rebellions akin to the resistance against Rassilon.
Discussions in versus communities highlight this split: Some argue the King's eldritch scale (universe-invading entities, fate-weaving) overwhelms via indirect interference, while others see Time Lords' precise, reality-nuking tech dominating disorganized horrors. Ultimately, the war would be a grinding attrition across multiverses, with Time Lords' organization clashing against unending Prim chaos.

Who Would Win?​

The Time War era Time Lords would emerge victorious in most scenarios. Their ability to manipulate time allows for proactive elimination of threats—rewriting the Crimson King's timeline or isolating Todash Space—before his forces can fully mobilize. While the King's chaotic entities could cause catastrophic surprises (e.g., fate-driven rifts unleashing Prim demons on Gallifrey), the Time Lords have contended with similar cosmic horrors (e.g., Daleks, Great Old Ones) and possess superweapons to seal or erase them. The Crimson King's reliance on subtlety and agents falters against a foe that can strike anywhere in history, tipping the scales toward the Time Lords after immense mutual destruction. This outcome aligns with their survival against Dalek-level extinction events, substantiating their edge over the more narrative-driven, fate-bound threats of King's universe.

Spoiler: ChatGPT:

Fun matchup. Also gloriously unfair in scale.


Short version: the Time War–era Time Lords are operating at a level of causality control that the Crimson King and most Prim/Todash entities have never clearly been shown to counter. Unless you grant the Crimson King powers beyond what he demonstrates on the page, Gallifrey probably takes it.


Here’s why.

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What the Time Lords can actually do at their peak​

During the Time War they’re not just clever people with ray-guns. They’re:

• Rewriting timelines and erasing events from history.
• Using weapons that remove species from ever having existed.
• Fighting across multiple temporal fronts simultaneously.
• Resurrecting or duplicating themselves via time tech.
• Deploying things like the Moment, which can lock or annihilate whole civilizations in time.
• Capable of hiding Gallifrey in pocket universes or outside normal causality.

In other words, they don’t just kill you. They make it so you were never a problem.

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What the Crimson King and the Prim monsters bring​

The Crimson King is powerful, ancient, and cosmically significant, but in the actual Dark Tower text:

• He is imprisoned, outmaneuvered, and ultimately not portrayed as omnipotent.
• His plans rely heavily on agents, cults, psychic breakers, etc.
• He can influence across realities, but we rarely see him exercising fine, surgical control over time itself.
• Todash/Prim creatures are terrifying, but mostly in the sense of chaotic eldritch predators, not strategic time engineers.

They’re catastrophic at a local or metaphysical level, but not shown doing “I deleted your civilization from yesterday” moves.

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The real deciding factor: temporal warfare​

If one side can:

travel to before your rise and prevent it,

while the other side has not clearly demonstrated immunity to that kind of intervention, the contest skews hard.


The Time Lords specialized in exactly this kind of solution.

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Could the Crimson King resist?​

If you interpret him as a fundamental multiversal constant tied to Gan and the Dark Tower’s metaphysics, you could argue he’s too archetypal to be erased.


But if you go strictly by demonstrated capability in the novels, he’s vulnerable to imprisonment, trickery, and limitation. That makes him very targetable by a civilization that fights wars with paradoxes.

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Verdict​

Most likely winner: Time Lords (decisively).


They’d either:

• trap him outside causality,
• prevent his ascent,
• or restructure history so his campaign never coheres.

Spoiler: Perplexity AI:

Time War–era Time Lords almost certainly win, because their forces operate at “rewrite the whole multiverse’s history” scale, whereas the Crimson King and his monsters mainly menace the Dark Tower’s multiverse rather than casually editing it from outside its laws.vsbattles.fandom+1

Time Lords in the Time War​

• Time Lords are depicted as a civilization that “controlled the fundamental forces of the entire universe”, often described in fan and meta sources as effectively beyond normal Kardashev scales.reddit+1
• Their war with the Daleks involved weapons and strategies that burned and rewrote timelines, destroyed or re‑ran entire histories, and weaponised time itself across higher dimensions.thewertzone.blogspot+1
• Their technology (battle TARDIS fleets, the Matrix, reality‑breaking weapons, etc.) lets them alter causality, erase events retroactively, and potentially lock enemies out of time so they “never were”.tardis.fandom+1

Crimson King and the Prim/Todash side​

• In Stephen King’s Dark Tower cosmology, the Prim is a primordial chaotic “sea” from which Gan and the Beams and all universes emerge; the Dark Tower stands like an island within this sea.vsbattles.fandom+1
• As the Prim recedes, demons and “monsters of the Prim” are left on the shores of realities; many are dangerous but fundamentally parasitic entities choking on normal reality, with only some (like succubi, Maerlyn, Mia) adapting well.darktower.fandom
• Todash Space is the howling void between worlds, full of monstrous entities; the Crimson King can manipulate portals and use this void tactically, tossing enemies into it and exploiting its horrors, but he is still tied to the cosmology of the Tower rather than standing fully outside it as a creator‑level force.YouTubevsbattles.fandom+1

Why the Time Lords have the edge​

• The decisive factor is systemic control: Time Lords canonically helped establish and enforce physical laws and the structure of their universe’s history, turning “an otherwise malleable and structureless space of infinite possibility” into a rule‑bound continuum.vsbattles.fandom
• That implies they can impose or rewrite laws and timelines, while the Prim and Todash monsters are embodiments of chaos within an already‑given metaphysical framework; they are terrifying within the Dark Tower cosmology but do not routinely reconstruct that cosmology itself.vsbattles.fandom+1
• In a crossover scenario where both sides can interact, the Time Lords’ ability to edit causality, lock events out of existence, and potentially quarantine or collapse hostile spaces means they are far better equipped to contain or erase even very high‑end cosmic threats like Todash beings, so long as they can extend their temporal technology’s reach into that multiverse.thewertzone.blogspot+2

How the fight might look​

• The Crimson King’s best shot would be to destabilize the Time Lords’ Web of Time by attacking “outside the script” from Todash‑like voids, forcing paradoxes and tearing at Beams‑analogues if such structures exist in the Doctor Who side.
• The Time Lords’ likely response is to treat the Prim/Todash as another hostile extra‑universal zone: seal or re‑route its connections, weaponise temporal anchors to prevent incursions, and use retroactive attacks so that key Prim entities or the Crimson King “never intersect” the shared history at all.darktower.fandom+3

So in most reasonably fair setups, a full Time War–mobilised Gallifrey should overpower the Crimson King and his Todash/Prim monsters, mainly because they fight by rewriting the rules and history of reality, not just by unleashing stronger monsters inside it.

Spoiler: Gemini AI:

This is a clash of titans: High-Concept Science Fiction vs. Cosmic Horror Fantasy.
To determine the winner, we must look at the combatants at their absolute peaks: The Time Lords during the Last Great Time War (fully militarized, morals off) vs. The Crimson King (Los’) in his prime, commanding the armies of Discordia and the monsters of Todash Space.

The Combatants​

Feature	Time War Era Time Lords (Doctor Who)	The Crimson King & The Prim (The Dark Tower)
Nature	Gods of Law, Physics, and Causality.	Avatar of Chaos, The Random, and Entropy.
Power Source	The Eye of Harmony (captured star/black hole), The Time Vortex.	The Prim (primordial chaos), Deadlights, Dark Magic.
Key Weaponry	The Moment, De-Mat Guns, Time Loops, Black Hole Carriers, TARDISes.	Breakers (telepaths), Sneeches, Maerlyn’s Rainbow, The Deadlights.
Troops	Battle TARDIS fleets, Bowships, Chancellery Guard, The Doctor / The Master.	Vampires, Taheen, Low Men, Todash Monsters (e.g., IT/Pennywise species).
Goal	Preservation of the Web of Time / Survival at all costs.	Destruction of the Dark Tower (The Multiverse).

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The War Scenario​

Phase 1: The Breach​

The war begins when the Crimson King attempts to smash the support beams of the Doctor Who universe to let the "Prim" (chaos soup) flood in.

• The Crimson King's Move: He unleashes Todash Monsters (Lovecraftian horrors that exist outside of reality). These creatures don't follow physics; they are nightmares made flesh.
• The Time Lords' Counter: The Time Lords have faced this before. In their ancient history, Rassilon fought the "Great Old Ones" (Lovecraftian gods like Cthulhu) and the Great Vampires. The Time Lords didn't just beat them; they rewrote the laws of the universe to make magic impossible, replacing it with physics (the Web of Time).
• Outcome: The Time Lords' Transduction Barriers (which separate Gallifrey from the rest of the universe) are designed specifically to keep non-reality out. The initial wave of monsters crashes against defenses that can withstand the destruction of the universe.

Phase 2: Mental Warfare & The Deadlights​

The Crimson King's most potent weapon is madness. He utilizes the Deadlights—lights that exist outside the macroverse that drive any mortal who sees them instantly insane (or catatonic).

• Crimson King's Move: He projects the Deadlights into the Time Vortex, attempting to drive the Time Lord High Council mad.
• Time Lords' Counter: Time Lords possess immense psychic resistance. They can partition their brains, store their consciousness in the Matrix (a virtual reality heaven/database), and telepathically link with one another. However, the Deadlights are a threat on a higher dimensional level.
• Outcome: Heavy casualties for the Time Lords. Many lesser Gallifreyans succumb to madness. However, the higher-tier Time Lords (like Rassilon or the Doctor) have feats of resisting gods, mind-parasites, and abstract entities. They would quickly engineer "Psionic Shielding" or weaponize the Matrix to filter out the madness.

Phase 3: The Nukes (Erasure vs. Destruction)​

This is where the war ends. Both sides bring out their "End of Everything" weapons.

• The Crimson King: He uses his Breakers—powerful telepaths—to snap the "Beams" holding reality together. If he succeeds, the universe dissolves into Todash darkness.
• The Time Lords: They deploy The Moment (Galaxy Eater) or the Ultimate Sanction.
  • The Ultimate Sanction: Rassilon's plan to rip the Time Vortex apart, destroying the physical universe and elevating the Time Lords into beings of pure consciousness.
  • De-Mat Gun: A weapon that doesn't just kill you; it removes you from history. You never existed.

The Verdict: The Time Lords​

While the Crimson King is a multiversal threat, the Time Lords operate on a "Meta" level of narrative control that few fictional civilizations can match.
1. Weaponized History:
The Crimson King exists within the linear flow of "Ka" (destiny). The Time Lords build destiny. If the Crimson King is winning in the present, the Time Lords will travel back to the "Prim" era (before the multiverse existed) and alter the conditions of his birth or seal the Prim permanently. They have weaponized time travel; the Crimson King has not.
2. Rationalizing the Irrational:
The Time Lords' greatest feat is the anchoring of the thread. They took a universe of chaos and magic and forced it to become a universe of science and order. In a war against the Crimson King, they would not fight his magic with magic; they would use technology to impose "physics" on his monsters, rendering them mortal and killable.
3. The "Doctor" Factor:
Even if the Crimson King destroys Gallifrey, the Time Lords have The Doctor. The Doctor has defeated:

• The Beast (The Devil, from before the universe).
• The Great Intelligence (An Old One).
• Fenric (An Elder God).
• Chronovores (Eaters of Time).

The Crimson King was ultimately defeated by a gunslinger with big revolvers and an artist with an eraser. The Doctor is a super-genius who routinely outsmarts gods.

How the Crimson King Could Win​

The only path to victory for the Crimson King is if the Time Lords are arrogant (which they are). If they underestimate the Deadlights or the chaotic nature of Todash space, they could be driven insane before they can fire the Moment. Additionally, if the Crimson King manages to destroy the Time Vortex, the Time Lords lose their technology.

Final Winner​

The Time Lords.
They are simply too versatile. They can fight in the past, present, and future simultaneously. They can freeze the Crimson King in a single second of time forever (Time Loop), or throw his entire castle into a pocket universe (The Void). The Crimson King is a "breaker" of worlds, but the Time Lords are the "architects" of them.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

dunno about Dark Tower cosmology, i only watch it´s movies but holy shit there are many things which are so wrong

Great Vampires),

... they not are ally of Time lords, TLs just open a hole to their universe middle of the battle, the great vampires were confused but only attack the daleks becuase the daleks attack first

vulnerable to higher cosmic entities (e.g., Old Gods like Fenric); internal resistance (e.g., against Rassilon's tyranny);

this is so wrong in many level, the first is basically "A yes, humans are vulnerable to a nuked, thus is a weakness", no to say Old Gods were scare of the time war, even athoulght i think Fenric is High in the foodscaling enough to not be killed so easy, is not he breath and killed time war era TLs (however pre time era time lords actually could die just be a breath of fenric)

Rassilon was brough back becuase time lords not found a way of kill the daleks as they are basically "i always come back" (MFs die and were brough back by Time Strategiest Dalek), so they were mostly willing to follow Rassilon becuase they have no option... against monster they fully could go with his plan

Deploying things like the Moment, which can lock or annihilate whole civilizations in time.

They deploy The Moment (Galaxy Eater)

they cannot, the moment will refused being use by Time lords, she said that to Rassilon, only agree with the doctor becuase she have her long plan aka the Day of the Doctor

Additionally, if the Crimson King manages to destroy the Time Vortex, the Time Lords lose their technology.

Time Vortex isnt the only source of power, they could just block transfer unlimited amount of Tarranium, let alone they can powered their technology with their mind or TARDISes just start to drink energy around