Regarding Abstract Existence (as a whole) and HDE.

[SweetDao]

So, it has come to my attention that some characters have both "HDE" and some sort of "abstract existence" (AE,...)

On the HDE page, we have this:

A given object or entity is referred to as being higher-dimensional when they exist as part of a system with a number of coordinates axes greater than our own, or in layman's terms, if they possess more than three dimensions.

The term “Higher-Dimensional Existence” refers to objects and entities that exist in more than the regular 3-dimensional space, with at least one additional dimension

As far as being larger than infinitely-sized objects or spaces goes, one must analyze the context of the feat in question to determine if it truly qualifies for Higher-Dimensional Existence. In terms of volume (Or, more generally, measure), the only way to be truly bigger than an object of infinite size is to have a non-zero size in a space of more dimensions than the object in question. However, portrayals of more expansive realms containing infinitely large things within themselves are not necessarily indicative of such.

Stating that something is Extra-Dimensional simply means it comes from outside of the regular 3-dimensional space. It does not necessarily mean that it has an extradimensional axis in contrast to 3-dimensional objects, without further context.

Simply stating that something is from a Higher Plane or a Higher Existence does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis in relation to 3-dimensional entities or objects. Statements that something is "higher-dimensional" also need to be interpreted in context, as authors at times use the term figuratively

Characters who embody or are a literal timeline / spacetime continuum (The entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) on a universal scale can also be considered for Higher-Dimensional Existence (4-D). However, simply being called a universe does not count without proper evidence of the entirety of the past, present and future of the timeline being mentioned

The point is that the HDE page very directl reference something that is "physical" and, especially, "dimensioned". You can't have HDE as an abstract entity because you lack geometry/size in the first place. However, a verse could surely postulate that "concepts are dimensioned", like this would unironically qualify (even if it's more of a nerf than anything).

You can see a list of some examples here:

Shibai, Simon, Anti-Spiral, Beyonder, Madoka, Six Fold God, Dialga, Giygas, and so on (there are tons of these)

I can't speak for all of them, since most of them I don't even know the verse, but regarding Anti-Spiral, Beyonder, and Giygas, there are some sort of physical implications:

Anti-spiral: Is said to be the universe itself, so that's a physical phenomenon.
Beyonder: His true form is that of an "energy being", but his physical form has Infinite-D HDE.
Giygas: Is said to have been transformed into an "abstract mass of energy" (no scans), but since it's said to affect time in its entirety, it should be fine, I think.

However, for the rest? There is clearly an issue.

Madoka: She became a concept, but is also stated to have Large Size/HDE for her Abstract Self, which makes no sense since an "abstract object" doesn't have any size to begin with. I think it's more referring to "a physical/visual representation" of her form. I don't know the verse, so I can't argue much.

Shibai: It's stated he left behind his physical body, so I don't know if he became an abstract being or something else, but regardless, he needs to have a physical representation.

Six Fold God: Don't have any scans, so can't say, and maybe an old page?

Dialga: I don't know, and it doesn't seem to have any scan/specified dimension related to it? Maybe an old page?

So yeah, my question is, do WE treat abstract objects as being able to have HDE (and therefore physicality) by default or not?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I think you already know my thought, but my answer to this is no, something abstract can't be "dimensional", but it can have a "range".

 

[Orioreeem]

Wiudn't 4D concept give an actual 4D hax? Like the one that actually qualiefies for smurf hax

 

[SweetDao]

Wiudn't 4D concept give an actual 4D hax? Like the one that actually qualiefies for smurf hax

That's moreso range than smurf hax tbf, but if the concept is indeed dimensioned, one could say it's maybe worse/weaker than usual concepts imo.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

What's the point of this now? This has been made into a staff thread already hasn't it? For the record, I disagree it should be a thing by default. This is very verse dependent, actually the immunity page technically crosses into how the wiki generally treats such things if I'm not mistaken

 

[Hecky2222]

What's the point of this now? This has been made into a staff thread already hasn't it? For the record, I disagree it should be a thing by default. This is very verse dependent, actually the immunity page technically crosses into how the wiki generally treats such things if I'm not mistaken

Bro made it before staff thread. It was moved to staff thread cuz we questioned why we have AEs and HDEs at same time

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Bro made it before staff thread. It was moved to staff thread cuz we questioned why we have AEs and HDEs at same time

Oh I saw the recent reply and thought this was made after it, my fault

 

[PedjaTarzan]

this sounds like BDE 3 for AE to me :3

 

[Thermor]

That's moreso range than smurf hax tbf, but if the concept is indeed dimensioned, one could say it's maybe worse/weaker than usual concepts imo.

DT mentioned if abtracts like information are dimensioned, they can act as smurf.

 

[Shar122]

Wiudn't 4D concept give an actual 4D hax? Like the one that actually qualiefies for smurf hax

Concept haxes doesn't pertain to dimensional properties as far as I know, it's a metaphysical aspect/property, it just gives you range for the application of said hax, and if said concept is dimensioned. .. Then it's likely an anti feat or it's not a concept at all.

 

[Shar122]

DT mentioned if abtracts like information are dimensioned, they can act as smurf.

Hmh.. really? Concepts are ontologically different from information tho.
Although both are abstracts.

 

[Thermor]

Concept haxes doesn't pertain to dimensional properties as far as I know, it's a metaphysical aspect/property, it just gives you range for the application of said hax, and if said concept is dimensioned. .. Then it's likely an anti feat or it's not a concept at all.

Concepts can be smurfed if you show they have dimensions or concentrated.

can we please add an NLF note regarding the durability negation page

Now the Resistance page just needs to be modernised in-line with the newer Tiering System.

vsbattles.com

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Kinda confused, I feel this is more of a sub topic pertaining to the OP. Isn't this (and consequently the staff thread) only about whether HDE & AE can coexist?

 

[Hecky2222]

Kinda confused, I feel this is more of a sub topic pertaining to the OP. Isn't this (and consequently the staff thread) only about whether HDE & AE can coexist?

AE is related to CM and whatever abilities depending as what you exist

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

AE is related to CM and whatever abilities depending as what you exist

Well yeah naturally, but if CM is specifically the issue then I think there should be clarification on AE1 CM rather than just broadly saying "AE", as it's also entirely possible to have AE to something that isn't any specific type of concept

 

[SweetDao]

Kinda confused, I feel this is more of a sub topic pertaining to the OP. Isn't this (and consequently the staff thread) only about whether HDE & AE can coexist?

Yeah, Reiner beat me to it lol, I wanted to do a QnA first.

It's not really about "co-existing" because a profile can have both IF it makes sense. Like you can be AE1 (whatever you want) and your physical manifestation CAN be HDE whatever. My issue is solely with AE 1 (existing as an abstract object, so no physicality) AND having HDE (having a physical size in higher dimension).

Like if it's avatar, physical manifestation, clone, reinfarnation etc, it's fine really. But that's like saying a concept has "Large Size" for example, makes no sense. (Unless said concept is physical/dimensioned, which I doubt it's even a concept to begin with ngl)

 

[Arency]

Like you can be AE1 (whatever you want) and your physical manifestation CAN be HDE whatever.

What if it's the opposite, like your physical manifestation is AE1, tied to HDE then?

 

[SweetDao]

What if it's the opposite, like your physical manifestation is AE1, tied to HDE then?

How can it be a physical manifestation if you're an abstract object in the first place?

You're basically asking "what if an idea was actually a physical object" it wouldn't be an idea anymore, at that point. I think you're maybe talking about AE 2 instead, perhaps.

 

[Arency]

How can it be a physical manifestation if you're an abstract object in the first place?

I mean avatar creation my bad, it can still be intangible regardless, if it was shown to

 

[SweetDao]

I mean avatar creation my bad, it can still be intangible regardless if it was shown to

Simply Intangible/incorporeal is vastly different imo. Just like we don't assume ghost have BDE 1 just because they are ghost. Technically speaking they are still under the ruling of space and time (unless it's stated that they don't, in which case, it's specific to the verse).

 

[SweetDao]

This is the same with soul or mind really, we don't assume it's "higher dimensional" because the character is physically 4D (unless said Soul/Mind is also dimensioned)

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

It's not really about "co-existing" because a profile can have both IF it makes sense. Like you can be AE1 (whatever you want) and your physical manifestation CAN be HDE whatever. My issue is solely with AE 1 (existing as an abstract object, so no physicality) AND having HDE (having a physical size in higher dimension).

Like if it's avatar, physical manifestation, clone, reinfarnation etc, it's fine really. But that's like saying a concept has "Large Size" for example, makes no sense. (Unless said concept is physical/dimensioned, which I doubt it's even a concept to begin with ngl)

At the end of the day, I'm of the opinion that neither is true. I think this is very much a case by case basis, as tends to be the norm with a lot of such topics of this nature, and I don't think we should be trying to shove all of fiction into a box. To default to what Vietthai said in the staff thread

Anyway, while dimensions having physical quality, they are themselves actually not corporeal or physical, like you can't touch space axis or time axis with your hand right? That why interact with them grant you NPI. So a non-physical being can have HDE is normal because HDE isn't implies the character having a physical corporeal body, and of course fiction being fiction as Cipher has said, some have their true inner self beng incorporeal while the "body" outside is physical.

But well, as I said. I don't think this should strictly be the case, the fiction in question should decide what it is, and we should simply index based on said decision

 

[Arency]

Simply Intangible/incorporeal is vastly different imo.

I mean it was originally an answer for this :

How can it be a physical manifestation if you're an abstract object in the first place?

By "physical manifestation" It was meant to be intangible avatar tied to HDE structure with AE1 origin, tho personally I think we can't put a default basis, seeing how large fiction can be, at least in this case, I can probably see a lot of examples be different to each others so...

And I think I just misread your original question, so take my yap as the most useless thing the wiki has seen

 

[Arency]

At the end of the day, I'm of the opinion that neither is true. I think this is very much a case by case basis, as tends to be the norm with a lot of such topics of this nature, and I don't think we should be trying to shove all of fiction into a box. To default to what Vietthai said in the staff thread

Yeah this basically

 

[SweetDao]

But well, as I said. I don't think this should strictly be the case, the fiction in question should decide what it is, and we should simply index based on said decision

I think the main issue is moreso related to the fact we don't have a different nomination between "HDE" (as in, physically being 4D) and "HDE" (Being able to travel/live/whatever inside a 4D space)

Because while with the former, you do get an additional axis, with the latter, no so much imo.

 

[SweetDao]

By "physical manifestation" It was meant to be intangible avatar tied to HDE structure with AE1 origin, tho personally I think we can't put a default basis, seeing how large fiction can be, at least in this case, I can probably see a lot of examples be different to each others so...

I think people are not understanding the thing.

If a verse comes and say "X is the concept of Y", we will give AE 1. If, then, we get a description of "He's actually a 4D concept", I'm fine with listing it as a HDE BUT that would also mean that the concept is dimensioned, which is worse than regular AE/CM (I took concept as an exemple, you can change it with soul, mind, whatever, it's the same)

My issue is that, if someone is AE 1 (AE of anything really) it makes no sense to give stuff that directly partakes to size/geometry shenanigans, since there is no geometry to begin with.

 

[MrTayman616]

I think we'd just call it limited HDE(Or maybe we'd make additions to the page for situations like this), or just their existence's range would be limited to the dimensionality described imo.

Like that "4D concept" example. Let's say the character is the concept of death which the verse regards it as a 3D concept. Then ig that'd just be the range limit of the character's existence.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I think the main issue is moreso related to the fact we don't have a different nomination between "HDE" (as in, physically being 4D) and "HDE" (Being able to travel/live/whatever inside a 4D space)

Because while with the former, you do get an additional axis, with the latter, no so much imo.

Isn't it because the latter doesn't grant anything? Last I checked simply existing inside a higher dimensional space (unless it's L1A or above) doesn't give you any abilities on it's own

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I think we'd just call it limited HDE(Or maybe we'd make additions to the page for situations like this), or just their existence's range would be limited to the dimensionality described imo.

Like that "4D concept" example. Let's say the character is the concept of death which the verse regards it as a 3D concept. Then ig that'd just be the range limit of the character's existence.

This kinda circles back into the above point of concepts not being "dimensioned" which...while I can sorta understand the line of thinking behind it, as I already said above I think it's case by case but meh. Honestly probably should continue this on the staff thread

 

[SweetDao]

I think we'd just call it limited HDE(Or maybe we'd make additions to the page for situations like this), or just their existence's range would be limited to the dimensionality described imo.

Like that "4D concept" example. Let's say the character is the concept of death which the verse regards it as a 3D concept. Then ig that'd just be the range limit of the character's existence.

Imo talking about range (and range of movement) would be more fitting I THINK.

 

[SweetDao]

Isn't it because the latter doesn't grant anything? Last I checked simply existing inside a higher dimensional space (unless it's L1A or above) doesn't give you any abilities on it's own

Yeah, that's why, tbf, you have no way to actually write it on a profile.

 

[AlexSamDen]

I think HDE should in some way be able to be applicable to AE1 (we're talking about Concepts, ig), as that would affect VS matchups

As simple as it is, HDE is pretty much treated like Large Size, so it wouldn't make sense to not list it for Concepts, as, for example, a guy with an NPI, but no sufficient range wouldn't be able to attack any significant part of it. Same with CM with lower range, changing a 3D part of one wouldn't do anything to the 4D one

 

[SweetDao]

I think HDE should in some way be able to be applicable to AE1 (we're talking about Concepts, ig), as that would affect VS matchups

As simple as it is, HDE is pretty much treated like Large Size, so it wouldn't make sense to not list it for Concepts, as, for example, a guy with an NPI, but no sufficient range wouldn't be able to attack any significant part of it. Same with CM with lower range, changing a 3D part of one wouldn't do anything to the 4D one

That doesn't make any sense because NPI is literally "non-physical interaction", the "size" you're describing here is conceptual at most, so no, that wouldn't be Large Size, that would be just goofy because he can interact "physically" with something that isn't physical in the first place.

A concept scale to the reality it governs, it doesn't have a "size within the reality", at most, it has influence/range. If anything, that's just the hax of the NPI user that is impressive if he can directly target a conceptual object/entity/whatever.

 

[AlexSamDen]

That doesn't make any sense because NPI is literally "non-physical interaction", the "size" you're describing here is conceptual at most, so no, that wouldn't be Large Size, that would be just goofy because he can interact "physically" with something that isn't physical in the first place.

A concept scale to the reality it governs, it doesn't have a "size within the reality", at most, it has influence/range. If anything, that's just the hax of the NPI user that is impressive if he can directly target a conceptual object/entity/whatever.

Dao... Interacting with Abstracts as if they are physical is literally what NPI is

The power to interact with intangible or non-corporeal beings or objects. Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent objects or life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm.

It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate them in other contexts.

 

[SweetDao]

Dao... Interacting with Abstracts as if they are physical is literally what NPI is

Yeah... so why would that give an actual size to the ABSTRACT OBJECT, instead of the guy having the possibility to attack SOMETHING ABSTRACT AS IF IT WAS PHYSICAL?

Like, if someone touches a soul via NPI, is it actually 20cm long now? If a guy grabs your mind, does it mean he has 2kg of mass inside his hands?

 

[Hecky2222]

I think HDE should in some way be able to be applicable to AE1 (we're talking about Concepts, ig), as that would affect VS matchups

As simple as it is, HDE is pretty much treated like Large Size, so it wouldn't make sense to not list it for Concepts, as, for example, a guy with an NPI, but no sufficient range wouldn't be able to attack any significant part of it. Same with CM with lower range, changing a 3D part of one wouldn't do anything to the 4D one

Abstract object by itself doesn't have physical size. We dont treat usually Large Size as Physical One(Since 1-A by default gets Large Size Type 10 no matter AE or not). HDE is physical existence. If we treat HDE as simply Higher Plane Existence probably what you are talking would work. But current HDE we have talks about physical existence at mathematical dimensions

 

[Hecky2222]

Dao... Interacting with Abstracts as if they are physical is literally what NPI is

As if physical doesn't mean they are physical bro

 

[Qawsedf234]

So yeah, my question is, do WE treat abstract objects as being able to have HDE (and therefore physicality) by default or not?

No, we do not. Those are separate powers; however, a character can qualify for both at the same time if the abstract concept they embody also acts as a super-dimensional size.

For example, The Long Quiet has both HDE and Abstract Existence because he exists both as the conceptual idea of nothing (Abstract Existence) while also being a "structure" of super-dimensional size (the void reality is defined against). But if TLQ was just "Nothing" as an idea without being that superstructure, then it would just qualify for Abstract Existence.

 

[SweetDao]

For example, The Long Quiet has both HDE and Abstract Existence because he exists both as the conceptual idea of nothing (Abstract Existence) while also being a "structure" of super-dimensional size (the void reality is defined against).

Yeah, okay, I asked MGQ about this. You do agree, however, that even if on his profile he has "both", HDE is related to the "physical structure" while the AE is related to the "conceptual object" right? At no point does the "abstract object" also have HDE?

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Abstract Concept, unless it's like the Abstract Concept of space or distance, wouldn't have a size. It's a thing that stuff participates in. So yeah, the HDE is talking about the size of him while AE is his nature.