Question: How can a character who is higher in tier in every aspect be defeated by a character who is lower than them in tier in every aspect?

[Azertyhuuh]

Before I begin, this is only a personal opinion and personal thinking, and just something that confuses me.

---

When I first opened the matchup between Veldanava and Zeno for the first time, I think everyone remembers, and after that there were some people who mocked me and said Zeno loses and it’s a stomp match and so on, even though there were also people who agreed that Zeno is stronger, but the problem is that today I was mocked on other social media sites about this comparison, so I want to speak with logic and fairness and leave emotions aside please and talk only with logic.

We have Zeno 1C (6d):
Attack Potency: 1C
Striking Strength: 1C
Durability: 1C
Range: 1C

We have Veldanava 2A:
Attack Potency: 2A
Striking Strength: 2A
Durability: 2A
Range: 2A

Now how exactly does Veldanava defeat Zeno, this is the only thing I want to understand, I don’t care about Zeno or Veldanava, I just want to know the hidden reason and the logic they follow, because we are currently comparing the characters based only on what is written in their profiles here, so how does Veldanava win now, with what exactly can he win, when his striking strength and attack potency are 2A while Zeno’s durability is 1C, meaning any attack would not even scratch him from Veldanava, and Zeno has durability 1C, it’s like saying you want to destroy metal with a sheet of paper, comparing the hardness of metal and paper and trying to damage metal with a paper strike, it’s the same thing there, and all the hax Veldanava has in his profile also have no importance and won’t help him because his range is also 2A, meaning all these things like conceptual manipulation and other abilities and information and existence erasure or whatever will only work on a 2A scale and won’t cause any damage except on a 2A level, and he won’t be able to harm a character with 1C durability, so let’s leave emotions aside and follow logic and not contradict what is written in the profiles, because logically you can’t say he erases him with hax when his attack potency is 2A and Zeno’s durability is 1C, so let’s just follow logic not emotions.

That’s all, and it’s not an insult to That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime or Dragon Ball, it’s just something I don’t understand and I only talked about it as a personal opinion, I just don’t understand, I tried to understand but couldn’t, I looked at attack and durability and this is the logic I saw, I didn’t understand how people tell me Veldanava wins, I like Veldanava and Tensura and even my profile picture is Diablo from Tensura, so I like Tensura and I know Veldanava deserves more, he deserves High 1-A, but I just want to understand based on the current ratings in their profiles, comparing only according to what is written in the profiles, meaning it’s not about them specifically, even if it wasn’t Zeno or Veldanava but two other characters with the same ratings, how can a character with a lower tier defeat a character with a higher tier who surpasses him in everything, durability, attack, power, range and so on like Zeno, how is that possible.

 

[AlexSamDen]

I will respond properly later (in 40 minutes), but for starters:

Durability doesn't matter, as Hax are explicitly abilities that let you bypass that statistic

Zeno's AP doesn't matter, since he can't interact with Veldanava's AE. Tier (until 1-A) doesn't matter here. You are much bigger than a fire from a matchstick. Does that allow you to hold its fire? No.

Range also doesn't matter. While it would indeed be a problem if Zeno possessed HDE, he doesn't. His body is only 3D in size, meaning that to affect it you only need such range

Moreover, Veldanava has Madness Manipulation Type 3, which is a hax that works regardless of range, that being the reason I considered it a wincon in Veldanava vs Zamasu, where HDE indeed was a problem

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Before I begin, this is only a personal opinion and personal thinking, and just something that confuses me.

When I first opened the matchup between Veldanava and Zeno for the first time, I think everyone remembers, and after that there were some people who mocked me and said Zeno loses and it’s a stomp match and so on, even though there were also people who agreed that Zeno is stronger, but the problem is that today I was mocked on other social media sites about this comparison, so I want to speak with logic and fairness and leave emotions aside please and talk only with logic.

Leave emotions aside, he says, when in reality he tried to create what was a one-sided stomp match in his head one way, when it was actually the opposite....

We have Zeno 1C (6d):
Attack Potency: 1C
Striking Strength: 1C
Durability: 1C
Range: 1C

We have Veldanava 2A:
Attack Potency: 2A
Striking Strength: 2A
Durability: 2A
Range: 2A

This trully says it all...

Now how exactly does Veldanava defeat Zeno, this is the only thing I want to understand, I don’t care about Zeno or Veldanava, I just want to know the hidden reason and the logic they follow, because we are currently comparing the characters based only on what is written in their profiles here, so how does Veldanava win now, with what exactly can he win, when his striking strength and attack potency are 2A while Zeno’s durability is 1C, meaning any attack would not even scratch him from Veldanava, and Zeno has durability 1C, it’s like saying you want to destroy metal with a sheet of paper, comparing the hardness of metal and paper and trying to damage metal with a paper strike, it’s the same thing there, and all the hax Veldanava has in his profile also have no importance and won’t help him because his range is also 2A, meaning all these things like conceptual manipulation and other abilities and information and existence erasure or whatever will only work on a 2A scale and won’t cause any damage except on a 2A level, and he won’t be able to harm a character with 1C durability, so let’s leave emotions aside and follow logic and not contradict what is written in the profiles, because logically you can’t say he erases him with hax when his attack potency is 2A and Zeno’s durability is 1C, so let’s just follow logic not emotions.

That’s all, and it’s not an insult to That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime or Dragon Ball, it’s just something I don’t understand and I only talked about it as a personal opinion, I just don’t understand, I tried to understand but couldn’t, I looked at attack and durability and this is the logic I saw, I didn’t understand how people tell me Veldanava wins, I like Veldanava and Tensura and even my profile picture is Diablo from Tensura, so I like Tensura and I know Veldanava deserves more, he deserves High 1-A, but I just want to understand based on the current ratings in their profiles, comparing only according to what is written in the profiles, meaning it’s not about them specifically, even if it wasn’t Zeno or Veldanava but two other characters with the same ratings, how can a character with a lower tier defeat a character with a higher tier who surpasses him in everything, durability, attack, power, range and so on like Zeno, how is that possible.

Here is the thing: I will explain it as simply as possible.

Hax and diemsnionality/AP/DC are a separate matter. Meaning in most instances, Hax are not counted when it comes to a being tier or AP. This means that someone who can attack with 9B, 5B, or 2C are equally affected by the hax in question, unless we count other factors.

Unless a target has, for example, 4D HDE, they can still be affected/killed normally by 3D hax, as we assume they are 3D by default. (4D HDE, does not actually grant immunity to does hax in the first place, but makes the user "outside" of the 3D range)

This makes it so that Hax of a lower-tier character can affect a higher-tier character, in the same way as a being of equal tier.

 

[Hecky2222]

If he was HDE what you were saying would work as incon(Zeno cant touch AE from Velda either)

But Zeno isnt HDE and his AP is js 6-D so no running from hax

 

[Azertyhuuh]

If he was HDE what you were saying would work as incon(Zeno cant touch AE from Velda either)

But Zeno isnt HDE and his AP is js 6-D so no running from hax

What can Veldanava even do? Even Super Shenron in the series is almost omnipotent and still cannot defeat Zeno. All abilities in Dragon Ball are also useless against Zeno, and he cannot be killed within the series. Even Arale, who has plot manipulation, cannot do anything against Zeno because he is the greatest being in the entire series and no one is on his level. Just imagine plot manipulation and every possible ability, and still he cannot be killed by any means, and all of that is useless against him. He also has erasure and can erase anything from existence, and his erasure is higher even than plot manipulation and narrative erasure. He can even resist narrative erasure itself and the plot, so is there anything beyond that?

 

[AlexSamDen]

What can Veldanava even do? Even Super Shenron in the series is almost omnipotent and still cannot defeat Zeno. All abilities in Dragon Ball are also useless against Zeno, and he cannot be killed within the series. Even Arale, who has plot manipulation, cannot do anything against Zeno because he is the greatest being in the entire series and no one is on his level. Just imagine plot manipulation and every possible ability, and still he cannot be killed by any means, and all of that is useless against him. He also has erasure and can erase anything from existence, and his erasure is higher even than plot manipulation and narrative erasure. He can even resist narrative erasure itself and the plot, so is there anything beyond that?

Please do read these 2 pages

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Metaphysical_Aspects?so=search

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fallacies?so=search

And specifically the NLF note here

Plot Manipulation

Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Hecky2222]

What can Veldanava even do? Even Super Shenron in the series is almost omnipotent and still cannot defeat Zeno. All abilities in Dragon Ball are also useless against Zeno, and he cannot be killed within the series. Even Arale, who has plot manipulation, cannot do anything against Zeno because he is the greatest being in the entire series and no one is on his level. Just imagine plot manipulation and every possible ability, and still he cannot be killed by any means, and all of that is useless against him. He also has erasure and can erase anything from existence, and his erasure is higher even than plot manipulation and narrative erasure. He can even resist narrative erasure itself and the plot, so is there anything beyond that?

L-M-A-O

My Lord. I just assumed you asked question how Veldanava affect Zeno who is Complex Multi? I just answered your question how Tier 2 can affect Tier 1. Which you would be correct if Zeno had HDE but he doesn't. As for what Veld can do read this page. Also assuming plot would work against characters with Meta abiltiies is straight up wrong. Wiki already covered when plot will work against Meta abilities there

What are meta abilities? Try to read this page. If you still don't understand i can explain it even simplier

I am not debating it whatsover just trying to explain as simple as possible

 

[Shar122]

Man... Ok

Haxes and tiers are different categories that fall under the standard of this wiki, in which Haxes bypasses durability, which pertains to stats, it doesn't grant you inherent resistance to all abilities of lower tiers just because you're incredibly strong.
HDE just more so pertains to "being so vastly large enough" so that the lower tier character doesn't have the range to affect you, it does not however mean you're inherently superior in every natural aspect. It just you're inaccessible to the lower tiers haxes unless they have the necessary range to affect you or they have Smurf abilities.

What can Veldanava even do? Even Super Shenron in the series is almost omnipotent and still cannot defeat Zeno. All abilities in Dragon Ball are also useless against Zeno, and he cannot be killed within the series. Even Arale, who has plot manipulation, cannot do anything against Zeno because he is the greatest being in the entire series and no one is on his level. Just imagine plot manipulation and every possible ability, and still he cannot be killed by any means, and all of that is useless against him. He also has erasure and can erase anything from existence, and his erasure is higher even than plot manipulation and narrative erasure. He can even resist narrative erasure itself and the plot, so is there anything beyond that?

Even if we grant him that, resistance to plot hax ≠ resistance to concept hax or info type 2.
They are inherently different metaphysical properties/aspects treated as such in the wiki.

See this page right here;

Hax

Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant. The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier, however, they can be measured with...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I will respond properly later (in 40 minutes), but for starters:

Durability doesn't matter, as Hax are explicitly abilities that let you bypass that statistic

Zeno's AP doesn't matter, since he can't interact with Veldanava's AE. Tier (until 1-A) doesn't matter here. You are much bigger than a fire from a matchstick. Does that allow you to hold its fire? No.

Range also doesn't matter. While it would indeed be a problem if Zeno possessed HDE, he doesn't. His body is only 3D in size, meaning that to affect it you only need such range

Moreover, Veldanava has Madness Manipulation Type 3, which is a hax that works regardless of range, that being the reason I considered it a wincon in Veldanava vs Zamasu, where HDE indeed was a problem

Durability doesn’t matter?? Durability is extremely important, and abilities do not let you bypass durability except for certain special abilities, and those are rare. Also, abilities have types and naturally operate based on the user’s power. For example, Goku has the Kamehameha, and Master Roshi also has the Kamehameha, yet Goku’s Kamehameha is far stronger at a 2C level, while Master Roshi’s Kamehameha is at a planetary or multi-planet level. You also have the Hakai ability, but its strength differs depending on the user. Likewise, one person may have a sword and another person may also have a sword, yet merely possessing a sword will not put you on the same level as everyone else who has that same sword; it depends on your own strength. Even if you all have the same sword, if your muscles, intelligence, and power are at, for example, a planetary level, while the other person has the same sword but only average strength, then a single strike from the planetary-level person with that sword would be enough to tear the other apart and even cause environmental damage. Even if we ignore raw power, factors like speed, intelligence, and stamina would still play a role even if you both had the same sword. So don’t say it doesn’t matter, because it does. All of this is to help you understand that possessing abilities is useless if you are weak; even if two characters share the same ability, that ability will function according to your own power and capabilities.

Durability is important. Imagine someone like Goku who has physical durability; his body can withstand 2C-level blows without being affected, and this comes down to durability, meaning that affecting him would require power on a 2C level. Otherwise, his durability would be a problem, and you wouldn’t even be able to scratch him. Even Hakai, which can erase anything from existence, failed to scratch him, and Frieza managed to survive because of his durability, and you say durability isn’t important!! It is extremely important in battles, and abilities, regardless of their type, operate based on the user’s power. Not everyone who holds a sword becomes strong, and having an ability does not automatically make you powerful; these are very obvious points.

Range is important as well, because it determines the scope of a character’s power and how far their influence can reach. Range defines the extent of hax, information, resistances, and how far things can be affected; it is important.

Since Zeno’s durability is 1C, affecting him would require abilities at that same level of power.

Narrative erasure, all possible abilities, plot manipulation, none of that works against Zeno, and we also shouldn’t forget that Zeno cannot be killed in any way within the series, which means that regardless of the type of killing method or ability used, he would return. Even narrative erasure, which is the highest form of erasure, doesn’t work, and imagine now that Zeno’s erasure is above narrative erasure itself.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Durability doesn’t matter?? Durability is extremely important, and abilities do not let you bypass durability except for certain special abilities, and those are rare. Also, abilities have types and naturally operate based on the user’s power. For example, Goku has the Kamehameha, and Master Roshi also has the Kamehameha, yet Goku’s Kamehameha is far stronger at a 2C level, while Master Roshi’s Kamehameha is at a planetary or multi-planet level. You also have the Hakai ability, but its strength differs depending on the user. Likewise, one person may have a sword and another person may also have a sword, yet merely possessing a sword will not put you on the same level as everyone else who has that same sword; it depends on your own strength. Even if you all have the same sword, if your muscles, intelligence, and power are at, for example, a planetary level, while the other person has the same sword but only average strength, then a single strike from the planetary-level person with that sword would be enough to tear the other apart and even cause environmental damage. Even if we ignore raw power, factors like speed, intelligence, and stamina would still play a role even if you both had the same sword. So don’t say it doesn’t matter, because it does. All of this is to help you understand that possessing abilities is useless if you are weak; even if two characters share the same ability, that ability will function according to your own power and capabilities.

Durability is important. Imagine someone like Goku who has physical durability; his body can withstand 2C-level blows without being affected, and this comes down to durability, meaning that affecting him would require power on a 2C level. Otherwise, his durability would be a problem, and you wouldn’t even be able to scratch him. Even Hakai, which can erase anything from existence, failed to scratch him, and Frieza managed to survive because of his durability, and you say durability isn’t important!! It is extremely important in battles, and abilities, regardless of their type, operate based on the user’s power. Not everyone who holds a sword becomes strong, and having an ability does not automatically make you powerful; these are very obvious points.

Range is important as well, because it determines the scope of a character’s power and how far their influence can reach. Range defines the extent of hax, information, resistances, and how far things can be affected; it is important.

Since Zeno’s durability is 1C, affecting him would require abilities at that same level of power.

Narrative erasure, all possible abilities, plot manipulation, none of that works against Zeno, and we also shouldn’t forget that Zeno cannot be killed in any way within the series, which means that regardless of the type of killing method or ability used, he would return. Even narrative erasure, which is the highest form of erasure, doesn’t work, and imagine now that Zeno’s erasure is above narrative erasure itself.

Can I just ask you.... Did you actually read ANY of the linked pages and arguments explaining how the wiki treats hax and stats separately? Or any of the other explanations?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Also, I will do you a favour.... Regarding this and Plot manipulation NLFs, I will link a personal thread I made in the past...

Narrative erasure, all possible abilities, plot manipulation, none of that works against Zeno, and we also shouldn’t forget that Zeno cannot be killed in any way within the series, which means that regardless of the type of killing method or ability used, he would return. Even narrative erasure, which is the highest form of erasure, doesn’t work, and imagine now that Zeno’s erasure is above narrative erasure itself.

The problem with Plot Manipulation.

(This thread has now been moved to a Staff thread, so none staff members without permission needs to first ask a staff member to talk here) Let's get straight to the point. When we deal with plot manipulation on the profile in versus battles, their are always full of NLFs. The majority of...

vsbattles.com

Also, while you're at this, please read this....

16. No Limits Fallacy (NLF)​

This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).

Example​

"Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."

The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.

This is exactly what you are doing here....

 

[AlexSamDen]

Durability doesn’t matter?? Durability is extremely important, and abilities do not let you bypass durability except for certain special abilities, and those are rare. Also, abilities have types and naturally operate based on the user’s power. For example, Goku has the Kamehameha, and Master Roshi also has the Kamehameha, yet Goku’s Kamehameha is far stronger at a 2C level, while Master Roshi’s Kamehameha is at a planetary or multi-planet level. You also have the Hakai ability, but its strength differs depending on the user. Likewise, one person may have a sword and another person may also have a sword, yet merely possessing a sword will not put you on the same level as everyone else who has that same sword; it depends on your own strength. Even if you all have the same sword, if your muscles, intelligence, and power are at, for example, a planetary level, while the other person has the same sword but only average strength, then a single strike from the planetary-level person with that sword would be enough to tear the other apart and even cause environmental damage. Even if we ignore raw power, factors like speed, intelligence, and stamina would still play a role even if you both had the same sword. So don’t say it doesn’t matter, because it does. All of this is to help you understand that possessing abilities is useless if you are weak; even if two characters share the same ability, that ability will function according to your own power and capabilities.

Durability is important. Imagine someone like Goku who has physical durability; his body can withstand 2C-level blows without being affected, and this comes down to durability, meaning that affecting him would require power on a 2C level. Otherwise, his durability would be a problem, and you wouldn’t even be able to scratch him. Even Hakai, which can erase anything from existence, failed to scratch him, and Frieza managed to survive because of his durability, and you say durability isn’t important!! It is extremely important in battles, and abilities, regardless of their type, operate based on the user’s power. Not everyone who holds a sword becomes strong, and having an ability does not automatically make you powerful; these are very obvious points.

Range is important as well, because it determines the scope of a character’s power and how far their influence can reach. Range defines the extent of hax, information, resistances, and how far things can be affected; it is important.

Since Zeno’s durability is 1C, affecting him would require abilities at that same level of power.

Narrative erasure, all possible abilities, plot manipulation, none of that works against Zeno, and we also shouldn’t forget that Zeno cannot be killed in any way within the series, which means that regardless of the type of killing method or ability used, he would return. Even narrative erasure, which is the highest form of erasure, doesn’t work, and imagine now that Zeno’s erasure is above narrative erasure itself.

I'm now convinced that you didn't read any of the Wiki's explanation pages carefully

From the Hax page:

Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant.

The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier, however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability. This is because, depending on the hax, the statistics bypassed may actually counter it if they have a higher enough scale. This, however, is not the case with certain hax, examples include Reality Warping, Probability Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, and other abilities that simply & logically cannot be countered by high statistics.

Moreover, even the examples you provide are extremely wrong.
Abilities being more powerful the higher the tier the user is in Dragon Ball is the result of them having a Universal Energy System. This does not work the same way with other fandom's

A good example in this case would be Accelerator
His tier is at most 4-B, he's often portrayed as physically weak and yet he has the ability to manipulate 11-dimensional vectors to fight against stronger opponents

This goes directly against your idea

 

[Reiner04]

This issue shall be resolved by Tetramand Trial of Combat. Whoever wants to throw hands come forward.

 

[AlexSamDen]

This issue shall be resolved by Tetramand Trial of Combat. Whoever wants to throw hands come forward.

comes forward

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

This issue shall be resolved by Tetramand Trial of Combat. Whoever wants to throw hands come forward.

I am not fighting with a child. What do you take me for, Technoblade? (RIP Legend)

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

This issue shall be resolved by Tetramand Trial of Combat. Whoever wants to throw hands come forward

I choose Alien X

 

[Reiner04]

comes forward

I am not fighting with a child. What do you take me for, Technoblade? (RIP Legend)

I choose Alien X

Good for you i don't like violence! Gtg now. Thanks to God a thousand times that i didn't destroy you all right where you stand! Gotcha!?

 

[Hecky2222]

I'm now convinced that you didn't read any of the Wiki's explanation pages carefully

From the Hax page:

Can I just ask you.... Did you actually read ANY of the linked pages and arguments explaining how the wiki treats hax and stats separately? Or any of the other explanations?

You all assuming he understands this pages with advanced english(Considering his first language isn't english)

I spent hours in fandom and wiki, even by that I needed someone to explain me some of this pages. Sometimes ppl need simplier explanation and "read pages LOL" isn't answer to question

 

[AlexSamDen]

You all assuming he understands this pages with advanced english(Considering his first language isn't english)

I spent hours in fandom and wiki, even by that I needed someone to explain me some of this pages. Sometimes ppl need simplier explanation and "read pages LOL" isn't answer to question

My first language is also not English, yet I function as a part of the wiki just fine. This cannot be an excuse for this long

Moreover, the Hax page and its main premise are rather simple and easy to understand

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

You all assuming he understands this pages with advanced english(Considering his first language isn't english)

I spent hours in fandom and wiki, even by that I needed someone to explain me some of this pages. Sometimes ppl need simplier explanation and "read pages LOL" isn't answer to question

Let me make this clear: I understand people have issues with the English language, but here is the thing. It is not an excuse to completely ignore others.

We tried to explain in simple terms why it was different and didn't work like he thought it did; in return, he repeats his arguments instead. While making some very "questionable" comments.

So yes, I can understand having difficulties in English, but that is not something that can excuse everything.

For example, I tried to explain it as simply as possible above, but it was fully ignored.

 

[Robo432343]

Let me make this clear: I understand people have issues with the English language, but here is the thing. It is not an excuse to completely ignore others.

We tried to explain in simple terms why it was different and didn't work like he thought it did; in return, he repeats his arguments instead. While making some very "questionable" comments.

So yes, I can understand having difficulties in English, but that is not something that can excuse everything.

For example, I tried to explain it as simply as possible above, but it was fully ignored.

your explanation was, "read the page"
not very helpful ngl

 

[AlexSamDen]

your explanation was, "read the page"
not very helpful ngl

The very thing the wiki itself recommends to do before arguing anything btw...

We additionally quoted most relevant parts

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

your explanation was, "read the page"
not very helpful ngl

That was after my first message was either ignored, skipped or whatever, but here is the first one.

Here is the thing: I will explain it as simply as possible.

Hax and diemsnionality/AP/DC are a separate matter. Meaning in most instances, Hax are not counted when it comes to a being tier or AP. This means that someone who can attack with 9B, 5B, or 2C are equally affected by the hax in question, unless we count other factors.

Unless a target has, for example, 4D HDE, they can still be affected/killed normally by 3D hax, as we assume they are 3D by default. (4D HDE, does not actually grant immunity to does hax in the first place, but makes the user "outside" of the 3D range)

This makes it so that Hax of a lower-tier character can affect a higher-tier character, in the same way as a being of equal tier.

I think this is pretty simply described. So yeah, it was not my first message that tried to make him read another page, but a follow up to tried to to get him to read a more thorough explanation to hopefully get him to understand the subject better.

 

[Hecky2222]

your explanation was, "read the page"
not very helpful ngl

^

 

[StrymULTRA]

When I first opened the matchup between Veldanava and Zeno for the first time, I think everyone remembers, and after that there were some people who mocked me and said Zeno loses and it’s a stomp match and so on, even though there were also people who agreed that Zeno is stronger, but the problem is that today I was mocked on other social media sites about this comparison, so I want to speak with logic and fairness and leave emotions aside please and talk only with logic.

We have Zeno 1C (6d):
Attack Potency: 1C
Striking Strength: 1C
Durability: 1C
Range: 1C

We have Veldanava 2A:
Attack Potency: 2A
Striking Strength: 2A
Durability: 2A
Range: 2A

That time when Zeno was about to lose to a High 8-C with no smurf abilities.

 

[Cipher72]

You got popcorn ?

This issue shall be resolved by Tetramand Trial of Combat. Whoever wants to throw hands come forward.

 

[Cipher72]

Alright everyone has essentially covered what I wanted to say so I will do something a bit different.

Tell me @Azertyhuuh are you familiar with the term “hax” or more commonly “Power/Ability” ?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Before I begin, this is only a personal opinion and personal thinking, and just something that confuses me.

---

When I first opened the matchup between Veldanava and Zeno for the first time, I think everyone remembers, and after that there were some people who mocked me and said Zeno loses and it’s a stomp match and so on, even though there were also people who agreed that Zeno is stronger, but the problem is that today I was mocked on other social media sites about this comparison, so I want to speak with logic and fairness and leave emotions aside please and talk only with logic.

We have Zeno 1C (6d):
Attack Potency: 1C
Striking Strength: 1C
Durability: 1C
Range: 1C

We have Veldanava 2A:
Attack Potency: 2A
Striking Strength: 2A
Durability: 2A
Range: 2A

Now how exactly does Veldanava defeat Zeno, this is the only thing I want to understand, I don’t care about Zeno or Veldanava, I just want to know the hidden reason and the logic they follow, because we are currently comparing the characters based only on what is written in their profiles here, so how does Veldanava win now, with what exactly can he win, when his striking strength and attack potency are 2A while Zeno’s durability is 1C, meaning any attack would not even scratch him from Veldanava, and Zeno has durability 1C, it’s like saying you want to destroy metal with a sheet of paper, comparing the hardness of metal and paper and trying to damage metal with a paper strike, it’s the same thing there, and all the hax Veldanava has in his profile also have no importance and won’t help him because his range is also 2A, meaning all these things like conceptual manipulation and other abilities and information and existence erasure or whatever will only work on a 2A scale and won’t cause any damage except on a 2A level, and he won’t be able to harm a character with 1C durability, so let’s leave emotions aside and follow logic and not contradict what is written in the profiles, because logically you can’t say he erases him with hax when his attack potency is 2A and Zeno’s durability is 1C, so let’s just follow logic not emotions.

That’s all, and it’s not an insult to That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime or Dragon Ball, it’s just something I don’t understand and I only talked about it as a personal opinion, I just don’t understand, I tried to understand but couldn’t, I looked at attack and durability and this is the logic I saw, I didn’t understand how people tell me Veldanava wins, I like Veldanava and Tensura and even my profile picture is Diablo from Tensura, so I like Tensura and I know Veldanava deserves more, he deserves High 1-A, but I just want to understand based on the current ratings in their profiles, comparing only according to what is written in the profiles, meaning it’s not about them specifically, even if it wasn’t Zeno or Veldanava but two other characters with the same ratings, how can a character with a lower tier defeat a character with a higher tier who surpasses him in everything, durability, attack, power, range and so on like Zeno, how is that possible.

The answer is really, really simple; better hax ignores most if not all other statistics.

A high 1-B doesn't have resistance to madness manip type 3? It's gonna lose even if the other character that has it is tier 8. Someone can tank a punch shown to destroy a planet? Doesn't matter if someone else can just rip their soul out by thinking.

Someone can thrown a fireball from another multiverse? Does not matter if someone else erases all attacks within their own planetary range. The moment the fire ball comes within range it gets erased ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

Lets say a thick wall of rubber can tank a canon ball, what stops a fire from a simple match stick from slowly burning away the rubber? Compatibility matters, even a tier 6 winning against a tier 2 isn't rare here if the tier 6 just has better hax

 

[AyOgUyS]

While I am not particularly familiar with the characters used as examples, methinks I can give an explanation

Let's say there's Bob and Gob

Bob has a 3-D body but 5-D stats (since OP said tiering not really HDE)

Gob also has a 3-D body but 4-D stats

Bob would just obliterate Gob, right? Well...what if Gob is intangible? Then Bob can't just punch him. And if Gob has eternal life and Bob doesn't, Gob can win via outliving him

What if Gob has infinite lives? Then no matter how many times Bob kills him, Gob will just respawn

What if once Gob reaches his 2nd life, his aura teleports his opponents into another dimension? Gob's aura will just teleport Bob into another dimension and Gob wins

That's how despite having higher dimensional stats in comparison with your opponent, it doesn't always mean u will win

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

While I am not particularly familiar with the characters used as examples, methinks I can give an explanation

Let's say there's Bob and Gob

Bob has a 3-D body but 5-D stats (since OP said tiering not really HDE)

Gob also has a 3-D body but 4-D stats

Bob would just obliterate Gob, right? Well...what if Gob is intangible? Then Bob can't just punch him. And if Gob has eternal life and Bob doesn't, Gob can win via outliving him

What if Gob has infinite lives? Then no matter how many times Bob kills him, Gob will just respawn

What if once Gob reaches his 2nd life, his aura teleports his opponents into another dimension? Gob's aura will just teleport Bob into another dimension and Gob wins

That's how despite having higher dimensional stats in comparison with your opponent, it doesn't always mean u will win

Why did I imagine this was Finn, narating a match-up between Gumbel and Jake...

 

[AyOgUyS]

Why did I imagine this was Finn, narating a match-up between Gumbel and Jake...

High 1-A Finn when