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48 hrs need to pass since the thread was made. Then it can be applied and the thread closed.
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Pokemon: Creation Trio (& Others) Tier 1 Upgrade (ACCEPTED)
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No that I understand, what I meant was do we need more votes to be cast before then.
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3 is enough.
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Okay gotcha, thank you.
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Pokémon Legends Za DLC spoilers:
Also, in case it's needed, here are all of Darkrai's appearances in the anime.
Honestly, I don't recall seeing him fight at any other point, but if I had to check, probably the most important chapters post-dp would be his Journeys ones.
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I don't know if it matters, but doesn't Pokémon Legends Za affect Darkrai's scaling? None of the Pokémon mentioned in the opening are present in the game except for Darkrai (even with its Mega Evolution), and yet the protagonist is still able to defeat and capture it.
Using Serebii as a guide (because I haven't seen the DLC yet), the legendaries you can have at that point are Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Diancie, Mewtwo, and Heatran. Therefore, in the best-case scenario, you catch it using At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A Pokémons.
Unless we try to scale them to Darkrai (Heatran and Zygarde received Mega Evolutions, so maybe that help this case)
Using Serebii as a guide (because I haven't seen the DLC yet), the legendaries you can have at that point are Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Diancie, Mewtwo, and Heatran. Therefore, in the best-case scenario, you catch it using At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A Pokémons.
Unless we try to scale them to Darkrai (Heatran and Zygarde received Mega Evolutions, so maybe that help this case)
Also, in case it's needed, here are all of Darkrai's appearances in the anime.
Honestly, I don't recall seeing him fight at any other point, but if I had to check, probably the most important chapters post-dp would be his Journeys ones.
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Gonna be honest: Trained Legendaries do be strong AF. So no real difference
ExcelsisBerny
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If that’s what you define as “plot essential,” then I can LITERALLY say the same about the Mega trio, since those three Pokémon were summoned by Hoopa PRECISELY to counter the ones summoned by the unleashed Hoopa.
You’re being incredibly inconsistent and trying to assign a level of importance to Darkrai that the others supposedly don’t have, when in reality they do, and arguably even more so, since the Mega trio was able to match the Creation Trio while they were using their signature moves.
Either you bring up anti-feats, like Lepyr said, or the scaling is valid. It’s that simple.
Ditto. There’s an entire battle sequence where the Mega trio are shown trading direct blows, dodging, damaging, and even subduing the Creation Trio.
How is that even relevant? Those Darkrai are completely different. In Pokémon Mystery Dungeon, the power levels operate on an entirely different scale, so trying to establish consistency between the two is a fallacy.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter. I’m not even against Darkrai scaling.
This is nothing more than a baseless assertion. Those Pokémon use their Mega forms to match the level of their opponents, so we’re not even talking about regular Latios/Latias or the Rayquaza that fought Deoxys in another movie. If Hoopa summoned them through its rings, it’s because he knew they could balance the scale. So dismissing it as invalid just because it’s “random” under your own criteria is completely arbitrary.
Prove that those Pokémon (Mega Rayquaza Shiny, Mega Latios and Mega Latias) have anti feats that put them infinities below the Creation Trio, because they have feats for scaling to them.
Again, this is a baseless assertion, and you’re presupposing that those specific Pokémon, in their strongest forms, have anti-feats when you haven’t shown that at all.
Why are you acting like ALL the versions of legendaries across the verse have NECESSARILY the same level of power?????
ExcelsisBerny
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Regardless, as I said, I don’t mind leaving out the Primals since that’s more contentious, but the Mega trio scales to the Creation Trio without a doubt.
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We are not talking of scaling anymore, you really could've avoided this wall of text.
ExcelsisBerny
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Plank talked about “contentious”/"controversial" scaling. This isn’t contentious, it’s clear-cut.
You really could’ve avoided this message.
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Genuine lmaoing here.
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Anyway, all that's left to do here is to work on a blog for this addition and that's it?
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As DaReaperman mentioned, this doesn't really mean much. Trained variants of Pokemon can be absurdly powerful. This gives an argument for the Z-A protag to scale to this more than otherwise (and seeing as we already allow trainers like champions to scale, this isn't that big of a change).
You have this backwards. Confined Hoopa did not summon Latias, Latios or Rayquaza specifically to fight the CT at all. They were summoned first simply to battle Shadow Hoopa, who then summoned up the CT, Primals & Kyurem of it's own accord. It wasn't "in response" to anything.
Anyway, I fail to see what's inconsistent about this. Darkrai has more plot relevance for the simple virtue of, in its own movie, it's the only one shown to actually be able to put up a fight against Dialga and Palkia. The entire time. Hoopa's movie has random legendaries pulled forth for no deep reason other than the movie being a battle royale. And Anti-feats? Compare those legendaries lore & scaling compared to the Creation Trios, and tell me how this isn't an outlier for them?
One single battle instance vs half of Rise of Darkrai being dedicated to Darkrai fending off Dialga and Palkia. I think it's clear which one is the more valued depiction.
Because those Darkrai are not different in power scaling, as per how Pokemon's verse works here. Darkrai across multiple forms of Pokemon media being depicted on these levels showcases that Darkrai in general is on that level, in the anime and outside of it.
Explain to me how Pokemon known for raising continents & oceans is comparable to governing time and space? It's most certainly not baseless in the slightest. Compare the current scaling those other legendaries have across the board, and what you're trying to suggest from the Hoopa movie sticks out like a sore thumb as an outlier.
Okay, and?
Yeah, this movie being their only feats of interacting with the Creation Trio. Everywhere else?
Rayquaza stopping GMD & Deoxys, The Eon Duo scaling from legendaries like the Birds or Legendary Beasts? Astronomically below the Creation Trio.
Not how this works. What you're attempting to do is a reverse burden of proof. You need to be the one to prove this scaling is consistent and isn't an outlier beyond what these legendaries normally have.
...........Dude. Thats literally what we do for Pokemon here?
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Yeah. Besides the blog it's grace now.
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Still talking abaut Darkrai (I think this is the last time)
And what about the manga?
I put all the appearances in the link
And what about the manga?
- In chapter 414, it's revealed that the clash of Darkrai and Mewtwo's attacks was what petrified the Pokédex holders in Leaf Green & Fire Red (which would put them on the same level, remembering that this is the Mewtwo from which the scaling to Deoxys originates; If we assume it's stronger than the average Mewtwo, then all its scaling goes out the window.).
- In chapter 439, we see it being mind-controlled to interfere in the legendary battle, but honestly, the only one it seems to fight is Cresselia.
- In chapter 440, we see it put all the legendary Pokémon to sleep except Giratina and Shaymin, and when Giratina (Origin Forme) was about to attack them all, Shaymin wakes them up, and together they redirect the beam at the villain and Darkrai. Considering that it doesn't appear after this (except when they talk about where all the legendary Pokémon went after the battle), it's easy to assume that Giratina defeated Darkrai with an attack.
I put all the appearances in the link
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If we are to accept that different Darkrais with different powers exist to justify one scaling to the Creation and ignoring instances like Tobias' Darkrai, then I don't personally see why Cresselia should be scaling to the strongest we'd be seeing just because they are equal at a species level.
Agree with the low 1-C anyways.
Agree with the low 1-C anyways.
The only good thing GF has done in the past years.
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We don't go with this type of scaling here, as in separating the Darkrai's. Tobias's Darkrai is definitely a case of PIS simply because Tobias himself is infamously a plot device who was introduced solely to be the reason Ash doesn't win the Sinnoh League and then literally never appears at any other point in the anime ever again.
Theres no context or background behind this Darkrai other than Tobias magically having it. This Darkrai also having speed running all of the Sinnoh gyms solo and one shotting everyone in the league besides Ash.
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I mean, is it? there's several dedicated profiles. Including MD and Sir Aron's Lucario.
All of Ash rivals who have defeated him at a Pokemon league are plot devices. Ironically, it's only after Tobias that these characters were no longer introduced at the regional league. Tobias just happens to be the most popular because DP Ash was the best candidate to win a Regional League and Tobias was the rival with the hacked team. Nonetheless, Tobias as character has a plot weight on his season and we're told he's not a run of the mill trainer - Quite the opposite actually.
But anyways, point is that PIS pointed here is not even Darkrai or his fight against Ash, but Tobias existence as a character, which is a different subject.
Sounds like Alain before Alain.
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Oh no im talking about general species, not specific variant characters. Sir Aaron's lucario is one thing because that Lucario specifically is a movie protagonist, so its own character compared to an ordinary one.
Yeah, but those characters are established characters on some level and they don't just magically pull out legendaries without some kind of in-universe explanation for them obtaining it. They've even cameo'd at later points. Tobias's whole existence though is dismissed after the Sinnoh league and he came in out of nowhere before it.
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I mean, we're sorta doing the same now.
eh, it's just a thing that happens. We've seen trainers with legendary Pokémon on their team (The not-nurse Joy who has a Latias, Brandon's Regis and we know that people in Sinnoh were commanding Heatrans even before the Pokeball were invented thanks to the Arceus movie (and there was also a background one at the Sinnoh League for some reason). And after Goh got Suicune, I honestly don't really think you need much of an in-universe explanation as to why you're going for a full UBER team). It's a big minority, but it happens.
I think the only rival that Ash had at a regional league that appeared after was Ritchie (And Alain). But then again, I don't think Tobias revealing he was the secret 0 of the Master Class would've retroactively not make him a plot device either.
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Genuinely, can y'all stop talking about the scaling and focus on that for another thread? This CRT has been already accepted rn and y'all just cluttering it.
ExcelsisBerny
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This is genuinely hilarious.
1. A character has an extremely clear on-screen feat and the conclusion is drawn that, based on that feat, they scale.
2. The opposition claims it’s PIS purely on arbitrary grounds.
3. The opposition is asked to provide evidence that a specific character, who has appeared only once and in that single appearance has Low 1-C level feats, has inconsistencies in their scaling.
4. The opposition refuses, supposedly because I have to prove it’s consistent, even though they KNOW FULL WELL that those specific versions of the Pokémon only appeared once.
In other words, you’re not only claiming the scaling is invalid based on an “inconsistency” that doesn’t exist, since consistency is established by examining the common factors within a set of possibilities, and in this case that set is effectively equal to one, but you’re also expecting me to show additional feats that don’t exist, while accusing me of committing a “reverse burden of proof,” a term you used incorrectly, by the way.
Incoherence at its finest. At this point just do what you want.
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Agree
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Grace is over now I suppose?
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Yeah, where blog lil bro
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Was waiting until grace was done. I can make this today.
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You did not need to wait grace for that tho lol.
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Just to be on the safe side is all
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Okay so as of now, Low 1-C CT & others, and 1-C Arceus, has been accepted. But before we apply the accepted changes, I did want to bring this to the table & see what could come from it.
Regarding 6-D earlier, I am ultimately fine if the current stuff that was presented isn’t enough for this to become 1-C for everyone other than Arceus. However, there is something I wanted to follow up with you guys about.
In the manga version of the Rise of Darkrai, theres more clarification given about Dialgas influence inside of the Rift. Theres outright confirmation that the flow of time was affected, becoming out of sync because of Dialga.
This would confirm a flow of time is present inside of it, which would mean a temporal dimension is required for this to happen. Given that the rift is now proven (& accepted) to be a separate space, wouldn’t this at least imply the rifts time axis would be independent from the rest of the multiverse?
Regarding 6-D earlier, I am ultimately fine if the current stuff that was presented isn’t enough for this to become 1-C for everyone other than Arceus. However, there is something I wanted to follow up with you guys about.
In the manga version of the Rise of Darkrai, theres more clarification given about Dialgas influence inside of the Rift. Theres outright confirmation that the flow of time was affected, becoming out of sync because of Dialga.
This would confirm a flow of time is present inside of it, which would mean a temporal dimension is required for this to happen. Given that the rift is now proven (& accepted) to be a separate space, wouldn’t this at least imply the rifts time axis would be independent from the rest of the multiverse?
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I feel like the assumption would be that time as a single dimension encompasses both the rift and the multiverse, and the rift would be 4-D spatially while the multiverse is 3-D spatially. Unless it can be proven the time within the rift works as hypertime.
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Arent parallel universes supposed to be 4-D? Unless I misread what you said wrong.
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This makes no sense given that alternate cartridges are indeed alternate timelines with also statements of being different space-times lol
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They’re 4D because of 3 spatial dimensions plus time, I don’t think time outside of an infinite multiverse does much unless it’s a hypertime.
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Can you explain how Ash scales to this? Which keys and Pokemon scale to the Creation Trio?
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Journeys (and just Journeys I believe)
Since Ash > Leon whos > Cynthia, who in both anime and games scales from the Creation Trio.
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Good point.
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Only game cynthia has creation trio scaling. In the anime, Palkia's spatial rend destroys her Garchomp's draco meteor and that's the only time her Pokemon fights the creation trio
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Thats not what happened. Garchomps Draco meteor and Palkia's spatial rend cancel each other out, demonstrating that both attacks had equal power put into them. in contrast to how Dialga's Roar of Time almost immediately cleaved right through Ash, Dawn and Brock's combined attacks and required the lake trio to stop it in the end.
And let's not forget, something else her page doesn't cover (but should) is that Cynthia's Garchomp can single handedly destroy the red chain on Palkia. Meanwhile, the inverse of that required the Lake Trio combined to do the same with the one on Dialga.
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