Epsilon (The Eminence in Shadow) vs Matasaka Kamishiro (Tokyo Ghoul) | [7-1-2] (Grace)

[Delusionaltx2]

Behold! A TG matchup that has nothing to do with kaneki! (Shocking ik)

• Speed equalized
• Both are 7-C with anything higher being ofc restricted
• Both start 8 meters away from each other

Fight takes place here:

Old Orca:

Elfin Knight of shadow: XxZetsuxX, Zefra3011, S33rz, Anonymous_Learner, Thunderman101, NikHelton, Jackof_noTrades068

Incon: DarthSorox

 

[NikHelton]

So.
Shachi has a 2.5x advantage in reaction speed and kagune attacks, a 47833405x advantage in LS, a 2x advantage in AP, and resistance to analytical prediction, plus extra limbs and accelerated perception.

He simply closes in on her and crushes her like he did to Kaneki the first time they met, turning her organs to mush and then breaking her neck.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

So.
Shachi has a 2.5x advantage in reaction speed and kagune attacks, a 47833405x advantage in LS, a 2x advantage in AP, and resistance to analytical prediction, plus extra limbs and accelerated perception.

He simply closes in on her and crushes her like he did to Kaneki the first time they met, turning her organs to mush and then breaking her neck.

Regarding skill slop, You may wanna wait for Eminence in Shadow supporters for this one (also she can turn her body into mist so there's that too)

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Uh, Alpha will recieve a full rework soon, Zefra's either has the profile finished, or is close, i suggest waiting a bit

 

[XxZetsuxX]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Zefra3011/Alpha_profile#Without_Magic

In case any of you are interest in what will be added

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Regarding skill, EIS stomps btw

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Uh, Alpha will recieve a full rework soon, Zefra's either has the profile finished, or is close, i suggest waiting a bi

wait so what eminence in shadows profiles are actually done then besides cids?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

wait so what eminence in shadows profiles are actually done then besides cids?

Delta, Epsilon, Gamma and Alexia have gotten their rework already

Zefra has Alpha, Zeta and Beta mostly finished or finished but he is busy with work so he hasn't done any CRT for the reworks yet

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Delta, Epsilon, Gamma and Alexia have gotten their rework already

Zefra has Alpha, Zeta and Beta mostly finished or finished but he is busy with work so he hasn't done any CRT for the reworks yet

guess i'll use epsilon

 

[Delusionaltx2]

alright switched

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Ok so, Epsilon prefers to stay distanced from the opponent while spamming invisible magic slashes which negates his reaction speed and perception as he can't see them

In CQC, Epsilon anpr is mostly eye motion reading which i believe Kaneki doesn't take into account

Skill feats wise, at just 9 years old she was one of the top tiers of the verse can cover 1000 years of experience and skill in just a few months with a training that's not entirely focused on a specific subject like magic slashes which is considered unthinkable to even vampires with said 1000 years of skill and experience with knowledge reflecting that

 

[Delusionaltx2]

which i believe Kaneki doesn't take into account

this ain't kaneki, dw about that (obv that would kill the vibe)

 

[XxZetsuxX]

this ain't kaneki, dw about that

Yeah but the dude has resistence to ANPR based on what Kaneki uses, no?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Yeah but the dude has resistence to ANPR based on what Kaneki uses, no?

yeah that is true (he just dosen't have things like RE)

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Btw, Epsilon also upscales everything shadow garden (the members) can do here;

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Eminence_In_Shadow:_General_Abilities#Abilities

 

[Delusionaltx2]

bump

 

[NikHelton]

In CQC, Epsilon anpr is mostly eye motion reading which i believe Kaneki doesn't take into account

Reading the direction and movement of the gaze, muscle movements and observing someone else's center of gravity are the basic things for reading an opponent.

 

[Zefra3011]

So how is he dealing with ranged and invisible attacks?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

A non Kaneki matchup? (Following)

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Reading the direction and movement of the gaze, muscle movements and observing someone else's center of gravity are the basic things for reading an opponent.

From what i am seeing, even assuming he manages to engage in H2H, i don't see him touching Epsilon for these reasons;

Better - MA, ANPR, Information Analysis and IA

And upon engaging in H2H, he is getting pressure point'ed, unable to discern feints (he doesn't have ANPR), unable to leave her sight because of enhanced kinetic energy and assuming he doesn't start with grapple, Epsilon can just use magic damage reduction and martial arts damage reduction (soft techniques and barrier around the user with magic) i'd reckon he would barely do any damage

 

[NikHelton]

From what i am seeing, even assuming he manages to engage in H2H, i don't see him touching Epsilon for these reasons;

Better - MA, ANPR, Information Analysis and IA

And upon engaging in H2H, he is getting pressure point'ed, unable to discern feints (he doesn't have ANPR), unable to leave her sight because of enhanced kinetic energy and assuming he doesn't start with grapple, Epsilon can just use magic damage reduction and martial arts damage reduction (soft techniques and barrier around the user with magic) i'd reckon he would barely do any damage

Orca's profile is outdated.

His analytical prediction, information analysis, and instinctive actions are scaled to a level higher than Part 1 Kaneki's. Furthermore, he resists all of these abilities.

The kagune's movements defy simple information analysis. Shachi has regeneration, can deny regeneration, has a total advantage in AP, and any grab will be fatal.
His senses are so heightened that he can detect attacks by vibrations and the sound of air movement, see entire buildings as if in a sonar echo, detect creatures a couple of blocks away using scent, and his vision surpasses that of humans. Furthermore, his accelerated perception allows him to see opponents in slow motion, which, combined with his reaction advantage and the 2.5 times faster attack speed of his kagune, will allow him to win.

 

[Zefra3011]

But how is he dealing with invisible attacks?!

 

[NikHelton]

But how is he dealing with invisible attacks?!

Kaneki is capable of fighting with his eyes closed, relying on instinct, and can dodge attacks from behind, delivered through the air, using air vibrations. Shachi scales higher.

 

[Zefra3011]

Kaneki is capable of fighting with his eyes closed, relying on instinct, and can dodge attacks from behind, delivered through the air, using air vibrations. Shachi scales higher.

I dont see the air thing on Kaneki profile.

Instincts aren't omniscient, so it still depends on what he can dodge with them.

 

[NikHelton]

I dont see the air thing on Kaneki profile.

Instincts aren't omniscient, so it still depends on what he can dodge with them.

He can dodge attacks he can't see.

 

[Zefra3011]

He can dodge attacks he can't see.

yeah, but how? Again, the air vibration thing isnt on the profile and instincts are context dependent, it likely apply to attacks and patterns he already has experience with rather than his instincts reaching an omniscient level allowing him to react to absolutely anything.

Just because he dodged an attack he couldnt see it doesnt mean he can dodge all the attacks he cant see. Can you present a feat with scans?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

bump

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I'm gonna vote Epsilon

Has better H2H, hax and skill in general, i don't see her getting touched with this stomp level MA and IA

 

[Delusionaltx2]

yeah, but how? Again, the air vibration thing isnt on the profile

I think he's referring to the stuff on ghoul physiology for advanced ghouls

• Experienced Ghouls​

  • Enhanced Senses, Extrasensory Perception & Information Analysis (Hearing; The Ghouls' advanced senses allow them to sense and distinguish numerous targets across tens of meters from one's mass from the loudness of footsteps, texture from tone, sound reflection in the environment, form from rhythm, and the vibration kagune's give off. This is something Ghouls learn and don't inherently have like Banjo's group. Given Hinami and Irimi learned it, more experienced ghouls should have it like Yoshimura. Quinxs are also capable of this like Shirazu being able to detect Kagunes within walls. Ayato is able to do it as well though not to the extent of Hinami)

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I'm gonna vote Epsilon

Has better H2H, hax and skill in general, i don't see her getting touched with this stomp level MA and IA

Counted

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I think he's referring to the stuff on ghoul physiology for advanced ghouls

It doesn't mention air vibrations, like, her slash pushing air

I don't think that counts?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It doesn't mention air vibrations, like, her slash pushing air

I don't think that counts?

Oh air vibrations? Idk then

I skimmed and saw vibrations then thought this was it

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Oh air vibrations? Idk then

I skimmed and saw vibrations then thought this was it

GG

 

[Delusionaltx2]

GG

Either it is on the profile and we just can't read or it was probably accepted in a random CRT somewhere but never applied

There is also the case where Nik is just wrong but that's pretty rare

 

[NikHelton]

Either it is on the profile and we just can't read or it was probably accepted in a random CRT somewhere but never applied

There is also the case where Nik is just wrong but that's pretty rare

We'll be reworking the TG profiles soon. Regarding air vibrations, we have two examples: Shachi attacks Kaneki from a building. Kaneki wasn't aware of his presence, and the attack comes from a blind spot. Kaneki simply identifies the attack by the "falling sounds," that is, by the air vibrations. The second example is when Amon attacks Donato from behind, also in mid-air, from a blind spot, and Donato blocks this attack without turning around, having noticed his presence as he approached.

Furthermore, we have Urie, who instinctively dodged Donato's attack, which was so fast that it simply didn't exist for him. He didn't see it, didn't hear it, didn't acknowledge it.
And then there's Kaneki, who fights a ghoul with blocked vision, relying on instinct and perception, while counterattacking a hand-to-hand combatant using parkour skills and somersaults. He didn't see any of these attacks.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

We'll be reworking the TG profiles soon. Regarding air vibrations, we have two examples: Shachi attacks Kaneki from a building. Kaneki wasn't aware of his presence, and the attack comes from a blind spot. Kaneki simply identifies the attack by the "falling sounds," that is, by the air vibrations. The second example is when Amon attacks Donato from behind, also in mid-air, from a blind spot, and Donato blocks this attack without turning around, having noticed his presence as he approached.

Furthermore, we have Urie, who instinctively dodged Donato's attack, which was so fast that it simply didn't exist for him. He didn't see it, didn't hear it, didn't acknowledge it.
And then there's Kaneki, who fights a ghoul with blocked vision, relying on instinct and perception, while counterattacking a hand-to-hand combatant using parkour skills and somersaults. He didn't see any of these attacks.

Can you send scans for these?

 

[NikHelton]

Tg Ch 90 — Postimages

postimg.cc

Tg Ch 90 — Postimages

postimg.cc

TG re Ch 107 — Postimages

postimg.cc

 

[Zefra3011]

I think he's referring to the stuff on ghoul physiology for advanced ghouls

Thanks. I see.

I don't think it would be enough to prove he can constantly dodge invisible attacks. In that scan, they have time to make their visualizations using echolocation, a different situation from an actual fight. Even if he can perceive it, an invisible slash contains far lower and different information than what they are using in the scan, so I don't think he can make out the exact shape quickly enough and react accordingly based on this scan alone.

Also, Epsilon slashes aren't portrayed as making any sound, at least not anything audible like a footstep. The other Seven Shadows are capable of attacking without making sounds too. Epsilon didn't show it specifically, but learnt the swordmanship which involves it, it's a possibility, but dropping it anyway.

We would need to see these senses reliably used in a fight, at least, preferably with attacks that would not make any sound to an average ear.

Tg Ch 90 — Postimages

postimg.cc

Tg Ch 90 — Postimages

postimg.cc

TG re Ch 107 — Postimages

postimg.cc

Sure, but they all make clear sounds when jumping, before attacking, which might be what they pick up on. But even if he's using air motion, you can't compare the sound, or the air vibration, of an entire body moving to a very thin cut of magic.

Plus, in these scenes, they aren't portrayed to constantly dodge via sound/air vibration only and in an actual fight. At best, they are shown to do so when they have a lot of time to react to a single attack.

 

[NikHelton]

Thanks. I see.

I don't think it would be enough to prove he can constantly dodge invisible attacks. In that scan, they have time to make their visualizations using echolocation, a different situation from an actual fight. Even if he can perceive it, an invisible slash contains far lower and different information than what they are using in the scan, so I don't think he can make out the exact shape quickly enough and react accordingly based on this scan alone.

In one case, the character instinctively dodged an attack they couldn't recognize due to their speed. In the second case, they literally couldn't see it.
I suppose this should be sufficient for invisible attacks, but I'm interested in what others think.

Also, Epsilon slashes aren't portrayed as making any sound, at least not anything audible like a footstep. The other Seven Shadows are capable of attacking without making sounds too. Epsilon didn't show it specifically, but learnt the swordmanship which involves it, it's a possibility, but dropping it anyway.

We would need to see these senses reliably used in a fight, at least, preferably with attacks that would not make any sound to an average ear.

When you can detect the number of people on the other side of a building by the sound of their footsteps, the location of an enemy several blocks away in a high-rise building by the sound of their presence, and when you can see the entire room as if by echolocation, that's not ordinary hearing. Even Arima, blind as he was, blocked danmaku attacks from behind and attacks from three opponents simultaneously with one hand, relying on skill and sound.

Sure, but they all make clear sounds when jumping, before attacking, which might be what they pick up on. But even if he's using air motion, you can't compare the sound, or the air vibration, of an entire body moving to a very thin cut of magic.

Plus, in these scenes, they aren't portrayed to constantly dodge via sound/air vibration only and in an actual fight. At best, they are shown to do so when they have a lot of time to react to a single attack.

Donato reacted to the movement in the air and the swing of the quinque

 

[NikHelton]

Well, Donato still has the advantage in AP, LS, accelerated perception, resistance to analytical prediction, and the same for his kagune, as well as a 2.5x advantage in attack and reaction speed.

While Elfin would move his head 30 cm to avoid a strike, Shachi's kagune would travel 75 cm to still reach her. And thanks to analytical prediction and accelerated perception, which allows him to see all his opponent's actions at a glance, he'll simply know how she'll dodge and deliver the right blow.