An issue I have with Yogiri Takatou

[StrymULTRA]

Imagine making a CRT saying that Goku shouldn't have Martial Arts. This would be completely and utterly ridiculous, right? Because it is, as Goku is not only pretty much within the very definition of Martial Arts, but he's one of the very first characters that gets out in the overall pop culture when asking about a fictional character who is a martial artist.

The issue I have here is about Yogiri's Death Manipulation, as I believe that he definitely should get it back, and it's completely ridiculous to argue otherwise.

The juice​

The main arguments of the thread on why Yogiri's basically lying when he says that he inflicts death to people are the following:

• It "kills" even inanimated stuff or only limited parts of living beings, and can erase people on a fundamental level.
• Erasing magical power means the death of that being as a side-effect.

I do not particulairly agree with the notion that Death Manipulation cannot do this. In fact, it relies on the misconception that Death Manipulation can only mean "forcing physical death on people", when the page itself mentions this:

Death Manipulation is the ability to directly induce death in beings, objects or even concepts via supernatural means. This can manifest as the inexplicable death of an individual, the direct cessation of biological functions, dispersal of life force and more, being able to affect anything from plant and animal life to possibly even abstract forces and concepts.

This is important, as you cannot do stuff like giving heart attacks or suffocation to abstract concepts, as these things are literally etheral beings that lack any biological or physical function, they're absolutely not really "living" in the same way a biological creature does, so why is the Instant Death killing people like UEG on a fundamental level, or killing inanimated beings suddenly problematic? By "killing" a concept you're pretty much erasing them as they cannot really just "lay down dead", but they'd just stop existing, given that a concept is either there, or is not, and no in-between. Plus let's not act as if fiction cannot do stuff like erasing beings who are already voids (too many cases to count, I think at least everyone here knows an example of this) or mind haxxing inanimated objects like Giygas, does this mean that these abilities stop being what they're shown to be only because they "affect stuff that they shouldn't"? The above point is funny too, given that in-universe what I said was basically repeated, lol.

The magical power side effect thing seems to be damning, however we have this in the Death Manipulation page still:

It is important to note that just causing death via other abilities or indirect means (such as soul destruction, physical damage, deconstruction etc.) in itself does not qualify for Death Manipulation unless it is specified or portrayed to be a direct inducement of death in its targets with these being aftereffects of that.

This is also important, given that everything in-universe, even the fiction's main title or even the narrator quite literally describes the ability as "death" or killing, you cannot say that all of these are lies, come on. The thing I said about the page saying you can "kill" concepts also applies, Yogiri is indeed inducing death via some kind of EE, but the verse portrays it as a direct inducement of death constantly, to the point of it being part of its title ffs. It's also funnt

My proposal is simple: replace the "Unconventional Existence Erasure" with "Death Manipulation" once again, and make everything that's a result of Yogiri's Instant Death a subset of his Death/Concept hax, similar to how Caine's Reality Warping or Yukari's Conceptual Manipulation are worded, with these abilities being the main one, and the rest just a specific application of said main ability, and him "erasing" the Magical Power should be the result of him "killing" it, given that he also can delay the death of people akin to the Death Note.

 

[SweetDao]

I mean, the main issue really is that the "death" thing is how Yogiri perceives his power; he stated multiple times in the novel that he wasn't aware of his own power specificities, nor how it works. The whole "kill stuff" is really just a running joke of the novel. We do know that his "death hax" isn't a death hax like any other character, either.

The "people die" is simply a consequence of what he does (erasing/killing magical power).

If you simply go with the "He erases one thing, and the rest dies", Unconventional EE is still fine.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, the main issue really is that the "death" thing is how Yogiri perceives his power; he stated multiple times in the novel that he wasn't aware of his own power specificities, nor how it works. The whole "kill stuff" is really just a running joke of the novel. We do know that his "death hax" isn't a death hax like any other character, either.

The "people die" is simply a consequence of what he does (erasing/killing magical power).

If you simply go with the "He erases one thing, and the rest dies", Unconventional EE is still fine.

As I said in Discord, the note we have on the Death Manipulation page about portrayal of it being inducement of death being still enough for it to classify as that hax despite "only" doing things like shutting down biological functions, otherwise nothing would even qualify for it (Death Note without Death Manipulation despite only causing heart attacks [biological hax], making scenarios where people die [Fate Manipulation] or causing people to suicide in-universe [Mind hax], can you imagine that!?).

The Death Manipulation page says that you can kill concepts, and I concepts are not really "living", as said in OP they either exist or not, and erasing them is the only way to trully "kill" those, only that it's the in-universe portrayal that does the trick. You have to argue for the Death Manipulation page. Like, I understand your argument that Yogiri induces death by erasing the source, but that's still possible by Death hax according to the page.

 

[SweetDao]

As I said in Discord, the note we have on the Death Manipulation page about portrayal of it being inducement of death being still enough for it to classify as that hax despite "only" doing things like shutting down biological functions, otherwise nothing would even qualify for it (Death Note without Death Manipulation despite only causing heart attacks [biological hax], making scenarios where people die [Fate Manipulation] or causing people to suicide in-universe [Mind hax], can you imagine that!?).

This is the issue tho, from the perspective of anyone, it would act as Death Manipulation. I mean, let's say you had the same power as him. You erase the magical power of some guy, and he falls flat on the floor. Would you say you killed him? Would you say he's dead? Obviously, yet that's not what happened directly/at the source.

The Death Manipulation page says that you can kill concepts, and I concepts are not really "living", as said in OP they either exist or not, and erasing them is the only way to trully "kill" those, only that it's the in-universe portrayal that does the trick. You have to argue for the Death Manipulation page. Like, I understand your argument that Yogiri induces death by erasing the source, but that's still possible by Death hax according to the page.

Yeah, I know you can do that, I'm saying that what he does is different from just "killing concept", he erases the magical power. That's what Ultimate God stated and since it's the most recent piece of information, I'm tempted to believe him. There is also the scene with UEG "losing her sense of self"/vanishing until nothing remains that links directly with how "when Magical Power disappears, you lose yourself" stuff.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is the issue tho, from the perspective of anyone, it would act as Death Manipulation. I mean, let's say you had the same power as him. You erase the magical power of some guy, and he falls flat on the floor. Would you say you killed him? Would you say he's dead? Obviously, yet that's not what happened directly/at the source.

Yeah, I know you can do that, I'm saying that what he does is different from just "killing concept", he erases the magical power. That's what Ultimate God stated and since it's the most recent piece of information, I'm tempted to believe him. There is also the scene with UEG "losing her sense of self"/vanishing until nothing remains that links directly with how "when Magical Power disappears, you lose yourself" stuff.

This does not really refutes my idea that Death Manipulation can indeed come as a replacement of direct "effects" like Fate/Biological hax, otherwise not even the Death Note would have the ability given that all of its stuff can be replaced by other abilities and still "work", so does my idea with EE when dealing with incorporeal stuff.

As I've said to you, we had a thread about this right to address this concern that portrayal is key here.

 

[SweetDao]

This does not really refutes my idea that Death Manipulation can indeed come as a replacement of direct "effects" like Fate/Biological hax, otherwise not even the Death Note would have the ability given that all of its stuff can be replaced by other abilities and still "work", so does my idea with EE when dealing with incorporeal stuff.

Isn't the Death Note literally stated to inflict death tho and that "heart attack" is just the standard way for them to die?

As I've said to you, we had a thread about this right to address this concern that portrayal is key here.

Meh. I'll wait for staff then, I don't think it changes much ultimately.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I still think unconventional EE, is more accurate for the arguments that existed in the old threads.

Sorry @StrymULTRA for not providing a more detailed explanation, my mind is kinda mush with a fever rn...

 

[StrymULTRA]

Isn't the Death Note literally stated to inflict death tho and that "heart attack" is just the standard way for them to die?

Nah, it only inflicts death through different ways that are chosen from the user, and only generates "causes of death".

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

make everything that's a result of Yogiri's Instant Death a subset of his Death/Concept hax, similar to how Caine's Reality Warping or Yukari's Conceptual Manipulation are worded, with these abilities being the main one, and the rest just a specific application of said main ability, and him "erasing" the Magical Power should be the result of him "killing" it, given that he also can delay the death of people akin to the Death Note.

I do agree with this, but instead of death manipulation, unconventional EE would work. Was planning to do that, but never actually got around that.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Looks reasonable to me.

 

[Reiner04]

Death Manip is essentially the ability to induce death in an opponent (or anything existing), regardless of what specific mechanism verse or event uses to achieve it. Whether it is achieved through shutting down biological functions or EE them out of the world.

Seems reasonable.

 

[Planck69]

How tf did he lose Death Manipulation in the first place? Next you'll tell me Doomsday doesn't have Reactive Evolution and Kratos and Asura don't have Rage Power.

Jokes aside, yeah this makes sense. Death Manipulation is also determined by how it's presented, else every single use of this power would be something else.

 

[BoastJr]

Fastest Fra train in the west

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks simple enough.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I agree, this is clear

I now feel from here the hatred and anger of the haters over these approvals to the point that I found people on Discord crying because of this approval. Believe it or not, I mean, imagine crying because of a character...

Anyway, this is just a small promotion because the next one is more beautiful. You will cry more and more

 

[StrymULTRA]

I agree, this is clear

I now feel from here the hatred and anger of the haters over these approvals to the point that I found people on Discord crying because of this approval. Believe it or not, I mean, imagine crying because of a character...

Anyway, this is just a small promotion because the next one is more beautiful. You will cry more and more

Dude, don't. None cares about what randoms off-site say, if they disagree then nothing stops them from coming here.

 

[Planck69]

I agree, this is clear

I now feel from here the hatred and anger of the haters over these approvals to the point that I found people on Discord crying because of this approval. Believe it or not, I mean, imagine crying because of a character...

Anyway, this is just a small promotion because the next one is more beautiful. You will cry more and more

Enough of the drama baiting. Give your opinion on the CRT and move on.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

I agree, this is clear

I now feel from here the hatred and anger of the haters over these approvals to the point that I found people on Discord crying because of this approval. Believe it or not, I mean, imagine crying because of a character...

Anyway, this is just a small promotion because the next one is more beautiful. You will cry more and more

what did we talk about that attitude....

anyways agree, how tf do u even lose ts LMAO

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, this is oke

 

[StrymULTRA]

Snip

Looks reasonable to me.

Death Manip is essentially the ability to induce death in an opponent (or anything existing), regardless of what specific mechanism verse or event uses to achieve it. Whether it is achieved through shutting down biological functions or EE them out of the world.

Seems reasonable.

How tf did he lose Death Manipulation in the first place? Next you'll tell me Doomsday doesn't have Reactive Evolution and Kratos and Asura don't have Rage Power.

Jokes aside, yeah this makes sense. Death Manipulation is also determined by how it's presented, else every single use of this power would be something else.

Looks simple enough.

Yeah, this is oke

So, I have made this sandbox with the P&A as it should be reworded in the 1st key, if there's a complaint I'll be hearing.

 

[BoastJr]

Dao isn't here anymore

I miss him already

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

So, I have made this sandbox with the P&A as it should be reworded in the 1st key, if there's a complaint I'll be hearing.

In the "which can also be automatic" part, this feat(s) would be better to use.

And the portal creation/dimensional travel should also be included in the applications of his death manip.

 

[StrymULTRA]

In the "which can also be automatic" part, this feat(s) would be better to use.

And the portal creation/dimensional travel should also be included in the applications of his death manip.

Alr.

Also I have noticed this scan too, could it be applied here? Plus a hand with references in the new scans for Death Manip could help

 

[Maniaunavailable]

So, I have made this sandbox with the P&A as it should be reworded in the 1st key, if there's a complaint I'll be hearing.

unreleated but wtf happend to his other 30 haxes lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

unreleated but wtf happend to his other 30 haxes lol

Only his 1st key, again.

 

[BoastJr]

# Senses

• Yogiri can perceive killing intent.
• Yogiri can visibly see hazards to his life before they actually happen.
• Killing intent is actually not required to activate Yogiri's ability, as he perceives all possible threats to his life. Even if you have no intention of harming him, he is still going to predict/sense the attack if it's a threat to his life. This has caused him to kill people that didn't even know about his existence.
• Yogiri can see hazards in the form of shadows which allows him to know where attacks are gonna land, the source of the danger or the trajectory of the attack.
• Yogiri could detect and kill Tracy, whose power makes her literally impossible to be perceived.
• Yogiri can detect danger in foods.

# Instant Death Ability

Capabilities:

• Yogiri explains his power and how he can kill people just by thinking.
• Yogiri can kill specific body parts of a person's body.
• Yogiri 'killed' a dog man's eyes, ears, and nose; negating the senses that go along with them. No amount of healing magic was useful, and the dog-man is completely unable to communicate with others or grasp aspects of the world, even telepathy is effectively negated.
• Yogiri's Instant Death 'killed' Lisa's ice magic, completely negating it, and he also 'killed' her magic staff causing it to shatter to pieces.
• Yogiri can kill clothes.
• Yogiri killed Lain's true body through the indirect connection Lain's B existence had with Lain's (main) existence whose existence was reliant on her real body which was located in a completely different dimension.
• Yogiri can kills undeads.
• Yogiri's ability kills an entire battalion of undead monsters and people with 'immunity' to Instant Death.
• Yogiri can kill inanimate objects.
• Yogiri can kill the powers of a target.
• Yogiri can kill ghosts and souls.
• Yogiri can kill momentum.
• Yogiri can kill radiation, light, noise, wind and heat.
• No phenomena can survive Yogiri's ability, and there are no countermeasures that can be done against it.
• Yogiri's ability negates resurrection.
• His power is irreversible.
• Even if the concept of death doesn't apply to you, you still die to Yogiri.
• Yogiri's ability is stated numerous times to lack cause and effect relationships.
• Yogiri's power transcends cause and effect.
• Yogiri can use his power through the use of other people as a medium, and can also kill anyone/anything that his targets have ever seen from their memories.
• What dies and what phenomenon occurs, all of it relies on Yogiri's subjective perception of death. (In other words, his power is based on his very imagination. Whatever he imagines in relation to death is what actually occurs and this is absolute)
• No matter how much defenses or resistances one has to instant death abilities, it is all meaningless in front of Yogiri's power.
• Yogiri can kill hypothetical beings.
• Yogiri could kill Alice's dimension and its laws/rules.
• Yogiri could eradicate Izelda's lineage by killing over sixty million of his descendants, along with all the livestock, wild animals, insects, plants, and infinitesimal bacteria that contained his factor. Yogiri was able to do this even though Izelda's consciousness was hidden in most of the people who possessed his factor, and killed his offspring so throughly that not even a piece of their genetic information remained.
• Yogiri can use his power through the use of other people as a medium, and can also kill anyone/anything that his targets have ever seen from their memories.
• Yogiri can eliminate any concept.
• The author personally stated in the Afterword that Yogiri can kill anything without any limits, which by consequence would include Celestial Foundations of the verse, which are conceptual in nature, as well as the information that makes up reality.
• Even lesser beings in the series can kill concepts or erase a target across all timelines.
• Yogiri's ability is stated to be "the power to make anything and everything disappear".
• His power is limitless and the author also states that it does not have any limit.
• Yogiri could kill the Celestial Foundation Eater before it could kill him. For reference, Celestial Foundations are universes, and each of those CFs contain further parallel universes inside it (universes inside universes), of which there are so many that an individual was likened to a single hair on his head when compared to all the parallel versions of himself. The Foundation Eaters are quite literally multiversal fishes that eat those Celestial Foundations. In fact, just their mouth alone dwarfs a Celestial Foundation in size. Even time and space are only a part of their existence, implying their superiority over those.
• Yogiri killed UEG, who could previously regenerate from her existence being utterly erased. For reference, UEG has also destroyed numerous universes, she has jumped 'out of dimensional space', and transcends time and space.
• As a result of fighting Yogiri, some gods in the verse have "disappeared" and vanished, being thus 'removed' from the Ultimate Ensemble World. The Ultimate Ensemble is the totality of existence, including not only the multiverse but also worlds beyond even that, which are also nested within each other and have different fundamental laws.
• To be killed by Yogiri is to be sent to eternal nothingness.
• Despite the entire world being Mitsuki's dream, Yogiri could defeat him by killing the relationship between dream and dreamer, completely disconnecting Mitsuki from his own dream, and as such leaving Mitsukion a comatose state.
• Yogiri was implied to be able to kill the Question Corner (QnA sections done by the author at the end of each volume). According to Tomochika, this would likely result in the lack of other Bonus Short Stories for the next incoming volumes. In addition, the Question Corner is stated to exist as a 'mysterious space outside the novel'.

Automatic Defenses:

• Yogiri can use his powers even while sleeping.
• Yogiri's power automatically activates against abilities that tries to manipulate his mind.
• Yogiri considers forced teleportation to be an attack. Thus, trying to teleport him against his will would result in death for the opponent.
• Even if the opponent is faster than what Yogiri can react, his powers activate automatically to retaliate them before any harm is done.
• Even as a baby, Yogiri could still retaliate with his power.
• Killing Yogiri is impossible. No matter how fast an attack is, it won't work. Unseen and indiscriminate attacks are also equally worthless against him.

# True Form

• Yogiri's true form is the End of all things. An embodiment of nonexistence that overcomes all others, and from which everything returns to after their end/deaths, of which there is nothing beyond, not even Fate or Plot itself.
• Yogiri's true form was compared to a natural limiter of reality, in which it is the inevitable end of the line that puts in check whatever god or entity that tries to destroy all of creation, ensuring its safety and balance.
• His true form exists across all space and time.
• His true form can act in stopped time.
• The author implied that Yogiri's true form is inaccessible to higher dimensions, no matter how many of them are stacked, as it can destroy all of those things.

# Miscellaneous

• Yogiri can perceive and freely manipulate the higher-dimensional Abyss/Astral Plane.
• His power can manifest through videos, audios, cameras and any other recording device, even if not in real time.
• Yogiri's ability is not magic.
• Yukimasa's ability of rewriting the future at will did not work against Yogiri, resulting in Yukimasa's death instead.
• Yogiri was born with his powers.
• Trying to nullify his power is useless.
• If Yogiri dies, he will eventually reincarnate into a new vessel.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Also I have noticed this scan too, could it be applied here?

Sure, but thats the fan translation, you should use the official translation instead.

Plus a hand with references in the new scans for Death Manip could help

For the automatic thing: Volume 10 Chapter 15 and Volume 14 Chapter 11

For the kill any existence/phenomena thing: Volume 2 Chapter 22

 

[StrymULTRA]

For the automatic thing: Volume 10 Chapter 15 and Volume 14 Chapter 11

Also for the following ones plz:

• be capable of "deciding what death is"
• ice
• clothes
• phenomena or concepts

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Sure, but thats the fan translation, you should use the official translation instead.

For the automatic thing: Volume 10 Chapter 15 and Volume 14 Chapter 11

For the kill any existence/phenomena thing: Volume 2 Chapter 22

What do you think about the topic I opened about the 1A level? Can all of you who agreed here also approve it there?

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Also for the following ones plz:

• be capable of "deciding what death is"
• ice
• clothes
• phenomena or concepts

Shouldn’t you open a thread regarding Conceptual Manipulation Type 1?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What do you think about the topic I opened about the 1A level? Can all of you who agreed here also approve it there?

Shouldn’t you open a thread regarding Conceptual Manipulation Type 1?

Don't flood my thread with unrelated questions ffs.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Also for the following ones plz:

• be capable of "deciding what death is"
• ice
• clothes
• phenomena or concepts

• Volume 1 Chapter 36
• Volume 1 Chapter 29
• Volume 1 Chapter 30
• Volume 4 Chapter 14

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Also, I think killing "senses" should be re-added under that format, but unsure of the correct wording.

Yogiri's underserved Perception manipulation

Welcome back to part 2 of fixing undeserved abilities, it should be equally long as the last one. Perception Manipulation (Can make a person become blind and deaf by killing its eyes, ears and nose[7][8]) Can someone explain to me how someone making someone else lose their eyes and nose, is...

vsbattles.com

I removed it here, since it didn't fit the ability, but it is a feat for his Death ability nonetheless, so it should be listed under death manipulation, but without "perception manipulation" ability.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Yeah no,it's just cm3 EE causing people to die
Also i love how many false equivalents this tread has,genuinely insane

 

[Maniaunavailable]

What do you think about the topic I opened about the 1A level? Can all of you who agreed here also approve it there?

? no what

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Also, I think killing "senses" should be re-added under that format, but unsure of the correct wording.

Yogiri's underserved Perception manipulation

Welcome back to part 2 of fixing undeserved abilities, it should be equally long as the last one. Perception Manipulation (Can make a person become blind and deaf by killing its eyes, ears and nose[7][8]) Can someone explain to me how someone making someone else lose their eyes and nose, is...

vsbattles.com

I removed it here, since it didn't fit the ability, but it is a feat for his Death ability nonetheless, so it should be listed under death manipulation, but without "perception manipulation" ability.

I think it should be Perception Manipulation tbh.

Yogiri killing one's senses does not just make them go blind as if their eyes were pierced. Iirc, a character took out the eyes of the one who went blind and regenerated them from scratch yet they still were blind due to his sight being killed. And iirc Yogiri also killed one's hearing and so the character can't, not only hear, but also receive information from telepathy.

Edit: Yeah, it's on his profile's respect thread

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah no,it's just cm3 EE causing people to die

Does the Death Note have only Fate hax lil bro?

Also, I think killing "senses" should be re-added under that format, but unsure of the correct wording.

Yogiri's underserved Perception manipulation

Welcome back to part 2 of fixing undeserved abilities, it should be equally long as the last one. Perception Manipulation (Can make a person become blind and deaf by killing its eyes, ears and nose[7][8]) Can someone explain to me how someone making someone else lose their eyes and nose, is...

vsbattles.com

I removed it here, since it didn't fit the ability, but it is a feat for his Death ability nonetheless, so it should be listed under death manipulation, but without "perception manipulation" ability.

This is not the CRT for it, sorry.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

This is not the CRT for it, sorry.

I am asking you to make a follow up CRT.

 

[Reiner04]

So, I have made this sandbox with the P&A as it should be reworded in the 1st key, if there's a complaint I'll be hearing.

Not knowledgable on the verse to provide any good adjustments so i will be fine with whatever Oblivion decides regarding justifications or rewording.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Bro saved Undertale and now going for ID