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Hello again.
This thread will be aiming to re-evaluate Buu Saga scaling for the God tiers of the verse. What this basically means is that we’ll be going over the Buu scaling, along with where Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks should now scale.
We can start here by clearing some things up. In the original manga for starters, it isn't really stated that Gohan has surpassed Goku outright when his potential unleashed. The only reference we have is Goku being shocked at how much hidden potential Gohan has which he was previously unaware of. This isn't counting guides, but just what was actually stated when Gohan received this power from Elder Kai. It goes on to show Goku's shocked face when powering up but that doesn't inherently mean that Gohan surpassed Goku in power. Goku can be surprised and still stronger than Gohan. He did train over 7 years, and Gohan's potential increases as he trains and grows more powerful. That's a reason the ultimate form isn't stagnant; It's because Gohan's power doesn't have a cap. Not to mention what played a part in Goku's reaction was Goku being surprised that he could output this much power while not even turning Super Saiyan. Not that this level of power in general was impossible. So just keep that in mind. I'm not saying that Gohan 100 percent wasn't stronger, that it's just less concrete, but I'll get to more on that shortly.
I'll touch on Gotenks next since people like to bring up a statement of Goku's. Goku says here to Piccolo that he promised Buu that there are two people stronger than him to come fight him in a couple days. This is not a good argument since Goku only told Buu this to get him to cease his destruction until that day arrives. Goku has no idea on how powerful the fusion will actually be. What implications are there to back up such a claim when it isn't directly stated? And mind you, only Super Gotenks Pre-RoSAT training is capable of beating Fat Buu and not Base Gotenks who literally got beat up. Here, Goku doesn't even say that someone stronger than himself will actually appear. Buu just asked "Are they strong?" and then it was left at that. Goku only promised that they would show up in a few days time and defeat them. Nothing about them being stronger. So kind of a weird writing issue here since I didn't detect anything different in the translations. However, it's the same either way since Goku said this and/or would say this to pique Buu's interest and have them stop the destruction, which was later admitted he was a fool for expecting Buu to stop regardless. Right here, Goku is only impressed that Gotenks was able to learn SS3 in such a short time even when it took Goku years to learn it. That makes sense with the narrative since they just seem to be extremely talented. Being the youngest Super Saiyans and all and mastering fusion in a very short time. It's only natural with S-Cells and stuff like that coming into play.
Next, Goku powers down in front of Super Buu while Gohan was off guard and not next to him whatsoever. Goku straight up calls Buu's power disappointing and that "Even Gohan alone can handle you now" obviously meaning they don't have to resort to fusion and Gohan can just mop him up. This does NOT mean Super Buu is stronger for a few reasons. Which I'll get into right now. First of all, Goku's wording here "Even Gohan alone" is quite significant because he's using Gohan as a sort of gauge for power. It's a possible interpretation but what makes it stronger is Goku's other dialogue. Gohan isn't even worried about his dad who is supposedly supposed to be way weaker than himself and Super Buu yet he doesn't go up there to help him at all. Buu doesn't attack Goku either and is literally sweating and is faced with genuine fear until he makes up his mind about absorbing Gohan. If Buu was way stronger, why not attack GOKU and absorb him faster than he'd react? Buu's purpose was to KILL Goku to stop fusion. Why not continue what he was doing? Buu can easily blow himself up at any time to catch Gohan off guard like he did before, or just blow up the earth. Why stop? Well the answer is because Buu knows Goku is stronger and has Super Saiyan 3 which he's shown the capability to transform instantly and mess up Buu if he starts shit. There's nothing stopping Buu right here. Why would he be afraid of Gohan if he's all the way down at the ground while Goku is RIGHT THERE? Sure, he had a plan already to detach a piece of himself, but it's also possible Goku could have been on Guard which Buu knows since he SAW Buutenks do it. Why not Kill Goku? It's painfully clear that Goku is not inferior at all. Not to mention that this is Buu making up his mind, absorption being his only option. Killing Goku wasn't one of them. Goku just felt confident his son could handle it since that's what Gohan set out to do in the first place and you know how Goku was going on about the next generation. The situation was under control to the best of Goku's knowledge. In his mind, Gohan would just go up there and stop Buu then that's the end.
TL;DR?
There is nothing suggesting that Goku was inferior to Super Buu at any point upon his return to earth. Goku was simply stronger than Fat Buu but we didn't even know how MUCH. Goku wasn't even at full power either and he was passively getting weaker due to SS3 draining a lot of energy, especially in the living world where it effects his body differently. So yes, Goku doesn't have to be inferior to Super Buu at all, in fact, there is nothing suggesting he was ever weaker. Goku's power varies based on how much he's charged up, and even then, he could of Beaten Fat Buu in that specific state. SS3 Goku (Dead + LV+ Non-FP)>Super Buu. So based on everything we've seen, Goku can still be weaker than Gohan and Gotenks at the time and still be stronger than Super Buu. At worst, Goku is relative to Gotenks and Gohan at this point.
Okay we can move onto the strongest Buu Debate. This should be obvious but Innocent Buu is the weakest by far since his power went into the Evil Buu upon splitting, and Fat Buu would be above both of these versions since he's just the same but not split and containing all of his power. So we have this order going from weakest to strongest:
Next up is obviously Super Buu since he absorbed the other portion of his power and changed into a new being entirely. At first it was stated by Piccolo that he just has a body suited for combat, but later he says EVERYTHING about Buu is stronger which confirms Super Buu is just stronger than Fat Buu. Piccolo also tells Gotenks and Trunks that they must train as hard as they can after not denying that Super Gotenks could beat Fat Buu previously. Next, Buu absorbs Gotenks and becomes way stronger clearly, and Buuhan is way stronger than that. And I do want to state that due to Buu's absorption not being like Potara or Fusion dance, it's only additive, so Buu didn't get much stronger between Buutenks and Buuhan, especially since Gohan was only a BIT stronger than Gotenks from their own admission. So obviously here's the continued ranking:
Gonna get into Kid Buu scaling now. The fun part. First of all, Kid Buu is verbatim stated to be the most troublesome Buu. It's stated that Buu lost power when he absorbed the Kaioshin which YES includes both the Grand Supreme Kai and South Supreme Kai. People only say it was only the GSK that weakened Kid Buu which is not the case. 'Heart' weakens Kid Buu. All the Supreme Kai's are good, they have heart, along being very powerful. This is also supported by the fact that when Fat Buu was removed (Who contains Grand Supreme Kai) Buu's power started to go UP and not fall immediately. It was pointed out to me recently that this could actually mean BUUHAN instead of Super Buu. The entire point of going inside of Buu was lowering his power from his most powered up form which was Buuhan at the time. Goku and Vegeta stating his Ki actually went up is very likely resorting to the highest power he's had the ENTIRE time up until this point, not just from Super Buu. But it doesn't matter either way since since we know Heart weakens Buu, he'd be getting two entire powerups from Super Buu, (Loss of GSK and SSK) which already puts him above Buuhan anyways, which leads into another point I was going to get into here. Before that, it also mentions "absorptions" in plural. Japanese doesn't really have plural and its more context based. So when Kibito Kai talks about the Kai's and specifically says the ABSORPTIONS weakened Buu, it absolutely is talking about both.And most translations translate it to mean plural regardless. GSK only made Buu become more controllable since he was much gentler than the other Kais, which makes sense. Buff Buu may of actually been able to talk but we didn't see it at all. Mild Mannered = More controllable. 'Heart' = Weakened when he's in his pure state and not in a weird overlap like Super Buu. Overlap in this case just means Buu actually gaining power from his absorptions since he's an offshoot. Even if I were to Grant it only being GSK weakening Buu, it simply means Buff Buu and Kid Buu are way stronger than any Buu form that is above Fat Buu or Fat Buu himself. They don't have that limiter on them at all. We know for a fact that it still affects all the other Buu's that have GSK absorbed since Super Buu got stronger upon removal.
Next I'll get into something else entirely which is Buu's nature. Evil is a force in Dragon Ball. The strongest people tend to be evil usually, which is a sentiment that was brought forth in the Moro saga during Merus and Goku's conversations. Kid Buu has a consciousness. He can get scared, he can laugh, he can mock, he can understand. Thats what makes him so dangerous. He doesn't care about anything, he exist simply to destroy. That is the sole purpose in which he was created. So you have to ask yourself, if a force that was meant to be the incarnation of evil was created, why wouldn't they suffer from having external forces that clash against them be absorbed into their very being? That's exactly what Toriyama was trying to convey. Kid Buu is the pure idea of evil, he is at his most powerful when he is in his pure state.
It becomes especially apparent when all the power of Fat Buu went to Evil Buu. So for a being like Buu at least, the more evil, the stronger. Why wouldn't Kid Buu be the most powerful of his forms? He's literally the embodiment of evil itself.
Now onto Supreme Kai. Why would he be SO AFRAID if Kid Buu was so much weaker than the forms they had just encountered? It makes absolutely no sense when his entire lore dump on Buu was about how the he went on a rampage, killed the Kai's, and absorbed some of them which lowered his power. Now that he's gained that power back and is the force of evil he was meant to be, he WILL be the most dangerous and troublesome. Not just because he's "unrestrained". Buu can hold back and has done so before as we've seen. He's just as destructive as the other Buu's who tried to destroy the earth like Buutenks. They all caused terrible destruction. "Yeah Supreme Kai is freaking out since they have to fight a Buu who is 5x weaker than before, the horror". It's a non argument, absolutely irrelevant since Supreme Kai knows the idea of Vegito going inside of Buu was to make him weaker. He should be HAPPY, but he's not. Fighting wildly would make Buu even less of a threat since he can be predictable, especially against an opponent who's stronger. I'll go over debunks now.
First claim: "Goku said himself and Vegeta would die to Super Buu, therefore Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu and Buuhan since they fought him evenly and stated at full power Kid Buu would be killed by SS3 Goku".
Second Claim: "Kid Buu's power went down and the statement only refers to Buff Buu being stronger".
Third claim: "Buutenks/Buuhan claimed he is stronger than ever before so that means Kid Buu"
Additional Arguments for Kid Buu: He was pushing back a Spirit Bomb with the power of Gohan, all Z fighters, Earth, Namek, and the afterlife. Even with all the Z fighters energy, Goku STILL said it wasn't going to be enough to put down kid Buu, and he was actively pushing it back even when fully completed. Goku needed his FULL POWER to gather enough energy to amplify and push it into Kid Buu. And no, the argument "Genki isn't regular Ki" or "Genki isn't battle power" is absolutely wrong. Genki is literally just vitality. Actual tangible energy that you use for empowering yourself and fighting. Everyone was so drained of energy that they couldn't even TELEPORT whatsoever. This is an insane feat since to be that drained requires your energy to basically be Zero. Even earthlings were passing out from exertion. Which means Genki is the actual energy you need to LIVE. All evidence points towards the Super Spirit Bomb being arguably the most impressive display of power shown so far, even being stated to be immeasurable. Only thing that would be greater is Super Vegito. We have to understand that a Spirit Bomb of this magnitude with the Z-fighters energy (including Gohan), all of Earth, Namek, and the otherworld? Not to mention just the energy of some of the universe in general? It would far surpass Ultimate Gohan in strength since that power gets magnified.
Vegeta states here that he was NOT going to bring Gotenks and Gohan back to jump Kid Buu since in his mind it wouldn't work. Goku only thinks those two could HELP defeat Kid Buu. If Goku did think it was the best way, he would of outright said it and rejected the idea of using the spirit bomb if the former was the better option that secured victory. And it absolutely would be the simplest option. He tells Kibito Kai to go get Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. They fuse, and SS3 Gotenks jumps Kid Buu along with Gohan and innocent Buu. And Goku isn't an idiot, if he thought it would work, he absolutely would have said so. We have some examples of this actually. Goku states Vegito could do it absolutely no problem. Goku and Vegeta also stated that Goku's SS3 would definitely be able to beat Buu. So why would Vegeta take the infinitely harder option? I understand his whole "letting the people of earth save themselves for once" sentiment, but it was still the only option. Goku didn't deny it either when Vegeta told him they would be using ALL the energy they could instead of just a tiny bit. He calls Vegeta crazy at first, but then is all in on the idea once Vegeta elaborates. Spirit Bomb (Full energy)>Gohan and SS3 Gotenks jumping Buu>Spirit Bomb (a little energy at once). So clearly the "Super Spirit Bomb" was the best and only option that Goku never actually doubts and thinks can just straight up win while he and Vegeta think the other two Can't.
I should touch on Vegeta's character as well. The reason he goes to fight Kid Buu either way is that he believed it was HIS fault for making it harder on Goku, so he owns up to his mistakes. Goku ADMITS that they should have just fused in the first place. Vegeta REALIZES that Goku didn't actually want to particularly fight Buu solo in the first place. That's why he says "We're you being considerate towards me?" when he realizes. That was in the raw btw. It's the far right panel on the second page. Vegeta realizes he projected his own ideals onto Goku which Goku followed along and realized it was a mistake. That he as trying to act too cool and got cocky since he was just psyching himself up to fight. He even admitted he didn't know if he could do a THING to Buu before fighting, yet did anyway since he was thinking about Vegeta. That's why he was saying things like "You might not get a turn" after admitting to Vegeta he didn't know if he could actually do shit. It's a mask basically. So why would Vegeta make it harder on Goku by suggesting worse options to defeat Buu? It goes against his character development and makes no sense within the narrative. It's only consistent AND correct if Vegeta just doesn't think Gohan and Gotenks will cut it.
Many statements here to go over in the argument of Kid Buu. There are quite a bit in favor of Kid Buu.
Take this statement however you wish, but just know it does exist. Buuhan stated to gain power on the level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Regardless of how you take this, it doesn't really mean would in a fight with Buuhan or Buutenks. Goku wouldn't win in a fight of attrition with Buu since SS3 drains energy and he needs time to charge up to the absolute max. When fighting characters on the level of Super Buu, he doesn't need that full charge, but Buutenks and above he absolutely does since they have infinite regen, stamina, and don't lose energy while Goku does if you go with that scans interpretation. Goku didn't argue with Elder Kai since he knew his own capabilities and the drawbacks of Super Saiyan three, which is why he opted for fusion. Even without remembering it, he was going to do it anyways since he had no other choice regardless. I do think this isn't the most consistent in my opinion, however, it doesn't rule out Goku getting stronger by the end to be on Kid Buu's level so just keep that in mind.
Vegeta states Kid Buu's power was beyond anything he could imagine, and so was Goku's. Vegeta didn't realize how strong Goku actually was this entire time. Vegeta has fought Fat Buu, he fought Buuhan as Vegito and actively witnessed his energy levels while inside Buu's body. This is clearly meant to display to us as readers just how powerful this Buu is. It's beyond anything we've seen up to this point. Saiyans get stronger mid fight, Goku was also part of a very strong fusion as well. Goku is fighting for the sake of the entire universe. He can easily just get stronger mid battle, nothing stops it, especially since he's experienced all these powerful foes with his own eyes and sensed their power. Whatever the explanation, it did happen. Goku initially believed he wouldn't be able to fight on par with Kid Buu at all, to being confident in his ability to destroy him at full power if he gets the chance. All this does is upscale Goku to Kid Buu level. Vegeta clearly had the same sentiment, Goku is just stronger than he imagined, his power was pretty unknown up to that point, especially since he can get stronger by charging up long enough.
Some of those other scans also mention how the SSK weakened Buu, so you can't claim it's just the GSK, especially when the manga goes against this as well. There are scans that state Goku was weakened in Buu's body, and it references the manga. A lot of these are Chozenshuu as well if you need them. Gohan was stated to be the mightiest warrior, but this can easily be isolated to earth in general or just at the time like I mentioned earlier, nothing wrong with that. And remember the statements of Gohan are only in guidebooks which are secondary. Goku has similar statements in universe by the end and by Toriyama. There are also statements of Toriyama going against expectations with making the smaller villain the strongest. It's just one of his philosophies when it comes to writing and how he sets the expectation for the reader. Toriyama blatantly says he likes to make the final villain the strongest so it's more exciting. Which would be Kid Buu since he's totally different than the other Buu's. He's the first most troublesome.
You can use EML statements as well, but I can also find the same statements that state Kid Buu is the strongest, and that's from Super. Verbatim stated to be the mightiest multiple times within the story. With Goku even needed energy of the universe to win. It's hard to just deny all these statements. It was clearly the intent. The source material is always what will matter the most, so even if we play the scan game, we go about what's more consistent. I brought up all the relevant scans you need and all manga evidence that remain consistent enough to say Kid Buu is the strongest, that Goku beats Ultimate Gohan by the end at least. Narrative, Authors intent, blatant statements, etc. Goku is even stated to be the strongest by the end, him along with Kid Buu which places Goku over Ultimate Gohan. It's stated if they lost, Kid Buu would have killed everyone. Oh and there's also Toriyama yet again confirming the last version of Buu is the strongest. And please, don't be pedantic about statements such as Vegeta stating Goku is the ONLY one who can fight him. "Oh but Gohan is dead so he doesn't count". Gohan can easily be given a body by Enma and brought back just like what happened for Vegeta. The narrative clearly places emphasis of Goku being the strongest multiple times. There's almost nothing for Gohan when you read the statements correctly and go over authors intent.
So my proposal? Since I've given pretty solid, concrete evidence of Kid Buu being stronger than Gohan (Spirit Bomb, Vegeta and Goku's statements, etc) that eliminates Super Buu>Kid Buu entirely from what I've seen. As for Gotenks, Gohan, and Goku? That much is simple. Goku is to be given a Varies rating. Gotenks power increase is just unknown after Goten and Trunks' ROSAT training. We don't know how much stronger Super Buu actually got upon absorbing Innocent Buu so it's just an unknown. Would be around 50x at least since Piccolo thought Gotenks could maybe beat Super Buu after witnessing his power (which can't be sensed all that accurately, but he knew Super Buu was still above Fat Buu). But what we do know is that Ultimate Gohan is just a bit stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and that Goku would be stronger than Super Buu. Goku can fight opponents on the level of Fat Buu and make it appear like it's a somewhat even fight, but depending on how much power he outputs, he can vaporize opponents on the level of Super Buu even without a full charge. In the Kid Buu fight, if he charges up to the absolute max, he can destroy opponents on the level of Kid Buu who are stronger than every Super Buu iteration. Even if you want to say that Goku is weaker than Gohan and Gotenks Pre-Kid Buu fight, that'd be completely fine since Goku fighting Kid Buu just shows he got stronger. Not to mention we didn't see Goku go all out (besides full power) until the very end, with concrete statements. He was even doing better in his fight against Kid Buu and was less exhausted than he was against Fat Buu even while using more power (Goku after Fat Buu vs against Kid Buu while using far more power). As I showed, Goku was literally exausted after not nearly going all out after the battle. It was not the same with Kid Buu when where he fought him all out and then tried to charge up to max power with a living body as well. Something clearly changed. Next up, Gohan didn't even grow stronger at all after having his potential unlocked, fighting a powerful foe, and being healed from near death. We never see Gohan charge his Ki, rage boost, or any of the attributes that we know Ultimate has. Yet we absolutely know Goku can output far higher power than what he shows initially since Super Saiyan 3 is also a form that draws out your potential. Goku can go from fighting a Kid Buu who is somewhat holding back to absolutely obliterating him at full power no matter what. To be honest, Super Saiyan 3 doesn't have to be given a set multiplier based on what we've been shown, especially considering the at least 50x gap between Fat Buu and Super Buu. So with the statements of Goku getting stronger as he fights, experiences battles, arguably getting a fusion amp from being Super Vegito and witnessing that power for himself, you can argue he got stronger. Regardless, we did witness an increase in power by the time he fights Kid Buu. So the scale would look something like this:
FP SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Regular Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Kid Buu fight)>Buuhan>Buutenks>Ultimate Gohan>=SS3 Gotenks ? SS3 Goku>Super Buu. Fat Buu would not scale to Post-ROSAT Gotenks or any Super Buu variation, nor Gotenks since the power increase is unknown. Goku would be given a varies rating. For example, 'Son Goku, 4-B, far higher with charged Ki' or '4-B, varies depending on how much Ki he's built up'. Something along those lines since it really does matter at this point.
Based on this comment here, these were the options proposed as valid:
Agree: Qawsedf234 (Kid Buu Agenda), Vietthai96 (either option), Godernet (Agrees with Buuhan Agenga, Neutral on Kid Buu Agenda), Nierre (Buuhan Agenda)
Neutral: Random-Helper323 (leaning towards Buuhan Agenda)
Disagree: KingTempest, Damage3245, DarkDragonMedeus
This thread will be aiming to re-evaluate Buu Saga scaling for the God tiers of the verse. What this basically means is that we’ll be going over the Buu scaling, along with where Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks should now scale.
We can start here by clearing some things up. In the original manga for starters, it isn't really stated that Gohan has surpassed Goku outright when his potential unleashed. The only reference we have is Goku being shocked at how much hidden potential Gohan has which he was previously unaware of. This isn't counting guides, but just what was actually stated when Gohan received this power from Elder Kai. It goes on to show Goku's shocked face when powering up but that doesn't inherently mean that Gohan surpassed Goku in power. Goku can be surprised and still stronger than Gohan. He did train over 7 years, and Gohan's potential increases as he trains and grows more powerful. That's a reason the ultimate form isn't stagnant; It's because Gohan's power doesn't have a cap. Not to mention what played a part in Goku's reaction was Goku being surprised that he could output this much power while not even turning Super Saiyan. Not that this level of power in general was impossible. So just keep that in mind. I'm not saying that Gohan 100 percent wasn't stronger, that it's just less concrete, but I'll get to more on that shortly.
I'll touch on Gotenks next since people like to bring up a statement of Goku's. Goku says here to Piccolo that he promised Buu that there are two people stronger than him to come fight him in a couple days. This is not a good argument since Goku only told Buu this to get him to cease his destruction until that day arrives. Goku has no idea on how powerful the fusion will actually be. What implications are there to back up such a claim when it isn't directly stated? And mind you, only Super Gotenks Pre-RoSAT training is capable of beating Fat Buu and not Base Gotenks who literally got beat up. Here, Goku doesn't even say that someone stronger than himself will actually appear. Buu just asked "Are they strong?" and then it was left at that. Goku only promised that they would show up in a few days time and defeat them. Nothing about them being stronger. So kind of a weird writing issue here since I didn't detect anything different in the translations. However, it's the same either way since Goku said this and/or would say this to pique Buu's interest and have them stop the destruction, which was later admitted he was a fool for expecting Buu to stop regardless. Right here, Goku is only impressed that Gotenks was able to learn SS3 in such a short time even when it took Goku years to learn it. That makes sense with the narrative since they just seem to be extremely talented. Being the youngest Super Saiyans and all and mastering fusion in a very short time. It's only natural with S-Cells and stuff like that coming into play.
Next, Goku powers down in front of Super Buu while Gohan was off guard and not next to him whatsoever. Goku straight up calls Buu's power disappointing and that "Even Gohan alone can handle you now" obviously meaning they don't have to resort to fusion and Gohan can just mop him up. This does NOT mean Super Buu is stronger for a few reasons. Which I'll get into right now. First of all, Goku's wording here "Even Gohan alone" is quite significant because he's using Gohan as a sort of gauge for power. It's a possible interpretation but what makes it stronger is Goku's other dialogue. Gohan isn't even worried about his dad who is supposedly supposed to be way weaker than himself and Super Buu yet he doesn't go up there to help him at all. Buu doesn't attack Goku either and is literally sweating and is faced with genuine fear until he makes up his mind about absorbing Gohan. If Buu was way stronger, why not attack GOKU and absorb him faster than he'd react? Buu's purpose was to KILL Goku to stop fusion. Why not continue what he was doing? Buu can easily blow himself up at any time to catch Gohan off guard like he did before, or just blow up the earth. Why stop? Well the answer is because Buu knows Goku is stronger and has Super Saiyan 3 which he's shown the capability to transform instantly and mess up Buu if he starts shit. There's nothing stopping Buu right here. Why would he be afraid of Gohan if he's all the way down at the ground while Goku is RIGHT THERE? Sure, he had a plan already to detach a piece of himself, but it's also possible Goku could have been on Guard which Buu knows since he SAW Buutenks do it. Why not Kill Goku? It's painfully clear that Goku is not inferior at all. Not to mention that this is Buu making up his mind, absorption being his only option. Killing Goku wasn't one of them. Goku just felt confident his son could handle it since that's what Gohan set out to do in the first place and you know how Goku was going on about the next generation. The situation was under control to the best of Goku's knowledge. In his mind, Gohan would just go up there and stop Buu then that's the end.
- There was nothing stopping Buu from attacking Goku.
- There was no reason for Buu to be sweating in front of Goku at first unless he though absorbing Gohan was the BEST chance instead of a confrontation with Goku himself head on.
- There was no reason for Gohan to be so laid back about Goku up there with a mass psychotic murder who's stronger than his father and could kill or absorb him in an instant which is a technique Gohan KNOWS he has and so does Goku
- There IS a reason for Goku to give the fight to Gohan and let him just finish it since the situation was under control. It's akin to Moro arc Goku being caught off guard by a BS power he didn't know existed, just a little watered down here obviously since he wasn't aware Buu had hidden the other piece.
TL;DR?
There is nothing suggesting that Goku was inferior to Super Buu at any point upon his return to earth. Goku was simply stronger than Fat Buu but we didn't even know how MUCH. Goku wasn't even at full power either and he was passively getting weaker due to SS3 draining a lot of energy, especially in the living world where it effects his body differently. So yes, Goku doesn't have to be inferior to Super Buu at all, in fact, there is nothing suggesting he was ever weaker. Goku's power varies based on how much he's charged up, and even then, he could of Beaten Fat Buu in that specific state. SS3 Goku (Dead + LV+ Non-FP)>Super Buu. So based on everything we've seen, Goku can still be weaker than Gohan and Gotenks at the time and still be stronger than Super Buu. At worst, Goku is relative to Gotenks and Gohan at this point.
Okay we can move onto the strongest Buu Debate. This should be obvious but Innocent Buu is the weakest by far since his power went into the Evil Buu upon splitting, and Fat Buu would be above both of these versions since he's just the same but not split and containing all of his power. So we have this order going from weakest to strongest:
- Innocent Buu
- Evil Buu
- Fat Buu
Next up is obviously Super Buu since he absorbed the other portion of his power and changed into a new being entirely. At first it was stated by Piccolo that he just has a body suited for combat, but later he says EVERYTHING about Buu is stronger which confirms Super Buu is just stronger than Fat Buu. Piccolo also tells Gotenks and Trunks that they must train as hard as they can after not denying that Super Gotenks could beat Fat Buu previously. Next, Buu absorbs Gotenks and becomes way stronger clearly, and Buuhan is way stronger than that. And I do want to state that due to Buu's absorption not being like Potara or Fusion dance, it's only additive, so Buu didn't get much stronger between Buutenks and Buuhan, especially since Gohan was only a BIT stronger than Gotenks from their own admission. So obviously here's the continued ranking:
- Super Buu
- Buutenks
- Buuhan
Gonna get into Kid Buu scaling now. The fun part. First of all, Kid Buu is verbatim stated to be the most troublesome Buu. It's stated that Buu lost power when he absorbed the Kaioshin which YES includes both the Grand Supreme Kai and South Supreme Kai. People only say it was only the GSK that weakened Kid Buu which is not the case. 'Heart' weakens Kid Buu. All the Supreme Kai's are good, they have heart, along being very powerful. This is also supported by the fact that when Fat Buu was removed (Who contains Grand Supreme Kai) Buu's power started to go UP and not fall immediately. It was pointed out to me recently that this could actually mean BUUHAN instead of Super Buu. The entire point of going inside of Buu was lowering his power from his most powered up form which was Buuhan at the time. Goku and Vegeta stating his Ki actually went up is very likely resorting to the highest power he's had the ENTIRE time up until this point, not just from Super Buu. But it doesn't matter either way since since we know Heart weakens Buu, he'd be getting two entire powerups from Super Buu, (Loss of GSK and SSK) which already puts him above Buuhan anyways, which leads into another point I was going to get into here. Before that, it also mentions "absorptions" in plural. Japanese doesn't really have plural and its more context based. So when Kibito Kai talks about the Kai's and specifically says the ABSORPTIONS weakened Buu, it absolutely is talking about both.
Next I'll get into something else entirely which is Buu's nature. Evil is a force in Dragon Ball. The strongest people tend to be evil usually, which is a sentiment that was brought forth in the Moro saga during Merus and Goku's conversations. Kid Buu has a consciousness. He can get scared, he can laugh, he can mock, he can understand. Thats what makes him so dangerous. He doesn't care about anything, he exist simply to destroy. That is the sole purpose in which he was created. So you have to ask yourself, if a force that was meant to be the incarnation of evil was created, why wouldn't they suffer from having external forces that clash against them be absorbed into their very being? That's exactly what Toriyama was trying to convey. Kid Buu is the pure idea of evil, he is at his most powerful when he is in his pure state.
It becomes especially apparent when all the power of Fat Buu went to Evil Buu. So for a being like Buu at least, the more evil, the stronger. Why wouldn't Kid Buu be the most powerful of his forms? He's literally the embodiment of evil itself.
Now onto Supreme Kai. Why would he be SO AFRAID if Kid Buu was so much weaker than the forms they had just encountered? It makes absolutely no sense when his entire lore dump on Buu was about how the he went on a rampage, killed the Kai's, and absorbed some of them which lowered his power. Now that he's gained that power back and is the force of evil he was meant to be, he WILL be the most dangerous and troublesome. Not just because he's "unrestrained". Buu can hold back and has done so before as we've seen. He's just as destructive as the other Buu's who tried to destroy the earth like Buutenks. They all caused terrible destruction. "Yeah Supreme Kai is freaking out since they have to fight a Buu who is 5x weaker than before, the horror". It's a non argument, absolutely irrelevant since Supreme Kai knows the idea of Vegito going inside of Buu was to make him weaker. He should be HAPPY, but he's not. Fighting wildly would make Buu even less of a threat since he can be predictable, especially against an opponent who's stronger. I'll go over debunks now.
First claim: "Goku said himself and Vegeta would die to Super Buu, therefore Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu and Buuhan since they fought him evenly and stated at full power Kid Buu would be killed by SS3 Goku".
- This claim is bad for a couple reasons. First off, Goku was talking about their CURRENT state inside of Super Buu. Goku says if they go out as they are now, they'd be killed. This is important for a couple reasons which I'll bring up, and no, they were not talking about fusion here. They were extremely small. Far, far smaller than even fleas which is why their energy couldn't even so much as dent Super Buu's head lining. Goku stated he would be able to do it, or at least THINKS he'd be able to do it in just regular Super Saiyan. He's even SURPRISED when he finds out it doesn't do anything later. So Goku the entire time would be sensing his WEAKENED energy and comparing it to Super Buu, unless you think Goku can't sense his own energy which you need to prove (You can't). If anything, Goku couldn't even grasp the EXTENT of his weakness since he was under the impression he could blow a huge hole through Buu's body even while tiny. The claim that "Goku didn't know he was tiny or weak" doesn't hold up for some major reasons. First off is Goku's statement obviously, he has no reason to think he ISN'T small since he knows they are inside of Buu's body. You'd have to prove without a shadow of a doubt he didn't know. And this is not burden shifting since claiming Goku didn't know is has far less evidence than Goku just straight up knowing. I mean, it's the entire plan that they conjured up while being Vegito. It makes LESS sense than him knowing. Super Buu only points out specifically how small they really are once Goku overestimates how nerfed he is. Even if he DIDN'T know (somehow) he'd still be talking about his weakened energy the entire time since they are objectively weakened here, so that's all they'd have to gauge for their strength. Back to the other point about the first scan, Goku also has Zero reason to assume he'd go back to normal after going out. He was even visibly surprised when they went back to full size as well as the others. So either interpretation leads to this statement talking about weakened Goku, with Buu also knowing and admitting it. And Goku being ignorant to the mechanics of Buu's body and their current state overall.
Second Claim: "Kid Buu's power went down and the statement only refers to Buff Buu being stronger".
- This is stupid for a couple reasons. Buu's power is almost impossible to fully gauge at times, which makes it difficult for the opponent to get a read on it. Along with that, there was no ACTUAL statement of Kid Buu's power dropping. It had no reason to and there's no justifiable explanation either. It's explained by Buu's power being hard to read, Buu being suppressed, along with Goku and Vegeta getting cocky because of his size. And it's all invalidated by Buu taking it semi seriously literally a moment later and putting a bit of power behind his attacks. This means Goku and Vegeta were WRONG about being able to take on Buu (To the best of Goku's knowledge). They instantly eat their words and basically say they are screwed if he throws it. Goku had to resort to literal begging. Goku has Vegeta right there AND can transform into SS3 instantly. Goku believed he couldn't take that head on so he ran. So this is a defeater to the claim since they are proven wrong. Therefore, you can't actually prove Buu's power just dropped for no reason at all. So Kid Buu>Buff Buu>Super Buu/Buuhan.
Third claim: "Buutenks/Buuhan claimed he is stronger than ever before so that means Kid Buu"
- More problems. First of all, prove Super Buu of any form knows of Kid Buu's existence. There is nothing to support this at all. Best you got it Super Buu claiming "I won't be me anymore". But what exactly does this have to do with Kid Buu? I mean, no shit Super Buu won't be himself anymore. He only exist because Evil Buu absorbed Fat Buu. Does Fat Buu have memories of his time as Buff Buu or Pure Buu? Any proof of that? Better yet, prove that Buu knows he got weaker as a result of absorbing the Kais. Both things are impossible to prove. Fat Buu knows Bibidi and Babidi since Fat Buu was around to be ruled by Bibidi. Fat Buu completely changed from Buff Buu, an arguable still damn near mindless monster so there isn't even concrete evidence for that claim. In order for it to be seen as valid and not just going with the obvious interpretation just to wank Buu's gloating, then there's nothing. Buuhan could easily be referring to how he's stronger than ever since becoming Super Buu in general. Super Buu is not Fat Buu, Buff Buu, or Kid Buu. Evil Buu is a literal off shoot of Fat Buu, then they merge to become a different being altogether with just added power and intelligence from Piccolo and Gohan. In the Raw, Buutenks doesn't even mention the past either way so it can't be used regardless. Only Buuhan's statement can and that's it, which I already debunked if you can't prove what you need to make it valid. I should also mention that Buuhan's statement is a complete mistranslation. He only says he powered up even more from his previous state, which is obvious. Not "I'm stronger than I've ever been". Therefore, it's invalid to use. I'm just saying that even if I steelmanned these arguments, it still falls completely short.
It wouldn't of mattered regardless but still.
Additional Arguments for Kid Buu: He was pushing back a Spirit Bomb with the power of Gohan, all Z fighters, Earth, Namek, and the afterlife. Even with all the Z fighters energy, Goku STILL said it wasn't going to be enough to put down kid Buu, and he was actively pushing it back even when fully completed. Goku needed his FULL POWER to gather enough energy to amplify and push it into Kid Buu. And no, the argument "Genki isn't regular Ki" or "Genki isn't battle power" is absolutely wrong. Genki is literally just vitality. Actual tangible energy that you use for empowering yourself and fighting. Everyone was so drained of energy that they couldn't even TELEPORT whatsoever. This is an insane feat since to be that drained requires your energy to basically be Zero. Even earthlings were passing out from exertion. Which means Genki is the actual energy you need to LIVE. All evidence points towards the Super Spirit Bomb being arguably the most impressive display of power shown so far, even being stated to be immeasurable. Only thing that would be greater is Super Vegito. We have to understand that a Spirit Bomb of this magnitude with the Z-fighters energy (including Gohan), all of Earth, Namek, and the otherworld? Not to mention just the energy of some of the universe in general? It would far surpass Ultimate Gohan in strength since that power gets magnified.
- 元 (gen): origin, source, foundation 気 (ki): spirit, energy 勇 (yū): bravery, valor 気 (ki): spirit, energy 正 (shō): correct, true, proper 気 (ki): spirit, energy Shoki and Yuki are things that ARE Ki. They make it so you can use your Genki to the best of your ability, but it's not just the actual raw energy that's inside you. If the spirit bomb only takes Genki, then why were the earthlings tired if they only lost 1/3rd of their Ki? Why couldn't Supreme Kai teleport if he still had Shoki and Yuki left? Simple, because Genki is the actual energy and battle power. It's your life force, your spirit, that's all. So when Gohan gives his energy along with all the Z fighters and it's added together and increased in power, that just means Ultimate Gohan is not enough for Kid Buu whatsoever. And this is before the Genki Dama got like 4 times larger as well.
Vegeta states here that he was NOT going to bring Gotenks and Gohan back to jump Kid Buu since in his mind it wouldn't work. Goku only thinks those two could HELP defeat Kid Buu. If Goku did think it was the best way, he would of outright said it and rejected the idea of using the spirit bomb if the former was the better option that secured victory. And it absolutely would be the simplest option. He tells Kibito Kai to go get Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. They fuse, and SS3 Gotenks jumps Kid Buu along with Gohan and innocent Buu. And Goku isn't an idiot, if he thought it would work, he absolutely would have said so. We have some examples of this actually. Goku states Vegito could do it absolutely no problem. Goku and Vegeta also stated that Goku's SS3 would definitely be able to beat Buu. So why would Vegeta take the infinitely harder option? I understand his whole "letting the people of earth save themselves for once" sentiment, but it was still the only option. Goku didn't deny it either when Vegeta told him they would be using ALL the energy they could instead of just a tiny bit. He calls Vegeta crazy at first, but then is all in on the idea once Vegeta elaborates. Spirit Bomb (Full energy)>Gohan and SS3 Gotenks jumping Buu>Spirit Bomb (a little energy at once). So clearly the "Super Spirit Bomb" was the best and only option that Goku never actually doubts and thinks can just straight up win while he and Vegeta think the other two Can't.
I should touch on Vegeta's character as well. The reason he goes to fight Kid Buu either way is that he believed it was HIS fault for making it harder on Goku, so he owns up to his mistakes. Goku ADMITS that they should have just fused in the first place. Vegeta REALIZES that Goku didn't actually want to particularly fight Buu solo in the first place. That's why he says "We're you being considerate towards me?" when he realizes. That was in the raw btw. It's the far right panel on the second page. Vegeta realizes he projected his own ideals onto Goku which Goku followed along and realized it was a mistake. That he as trying to act too cool and got cocky since he was just psyching himself up to fight. He even admitted he didn't know if he could do a THING to Buu before fighting, yet did anyway since he was thinking about Vegeta. That's why he was saying things like "You might not get a turn" after admitting to Vegeta he didn't know if he could actually do shit. It's a mask basically. So why would Vegeta make it harder on Goku by suggesting worse options to defeat Buu? It goes against his character development and makes no sense within the narrative. It's only consistent AND correct if Vegeta just doesn't think Gohan and Gotenks will cut it.
Many statements here to go over in the argument of Kid Buu. There are quite a bit in favor of Kid Buu.
Take this statement however you wish, but just know it does exist. Buuhan stated to gain power on the level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Regardless of how you take this, it doesn't really mean would in a fight with Buuhan or Buutenks. Goku wouldn't win in a fight of attrition with Buu since SS3 drains energy and he needs time to charge up to the absolute max. When fighting characters on the level of Super Buu, he doesn't need that full charge, but Buutenks and above he absolutely does since they have infinite regen, stamina, and don't lose energy while Goku does if you go with that scans interpretation. Goku didn't argue with Elder Kai since he knew his own capabilities and the drawbacks of Super Saiyan three, which is why he opted for fusion. Even without remembering it, he was going to do it anyways since he had no other choice regardless. I do think this isn't the most consistent in my opinion, however, it doesn't rule out Goku getting stronger by the end to be on Kid Buu's level so just keep that in mind.
Vegeta states Kid Buu's power was beyond anything he could imagine, and so was Goku's. Vegeta didn't realize how strong Goku actually was this entire time. Vegeta has fought Fat Buu, he fought Buuhan as Vegito and actively witnessed his energy levels while inside Buu's body. This is clearly meant to display to us as readers just how powerful this Buu is. It's beyond anything we've seen up to this point. Saiyans get stronger mid fight, Goku was also part of a very strong fusion as well. Goku is fighting for the sake of the entire universe. He can easily just get stronger mid battle, nothing stops it, especially since he's experienced all these powerful foes with his own eyes and sensed their power. Whatever the explanation, it did happen. Goku initially believed he wouldn't be able to fight on par with Kid Buu at all, to being confident in his ability to destroy him at full power if he gets the chance. All this does is upscale Goku to Kid Buu level. Vegeta clearly had the same sentiment, Goku is just stronger than he imagined, his power was pretty unknown up to that point, especially since he can get stronger by charging up long enough.
Some of those other scans also mention how the SSK weakened Buu, so you can't claim it's just the GSK, especially when the manga goes against this as well. There are scans that state Goku was weakened in Buu's body, and it references the manga. A lot of these are Chozenshuu as well if you need them. Gohan was stated to be the mightiest warrior, but this can easily be isolated to earth in general or just at the time like I mentioned earlier, nothing wrong with that. And remember the statements of Gohan are only in guidebooks which are secondary. Goku has similar statements in universe by the end and by Toriyama. There are also statements of Toriyama going against expectations with making the smaller villain the strongest. It's just one of his philosophies when it comes to writing and how he sets the expectation for the reader. Toriyama blatantly says he likes to make the final villain the strongest so it's more exciting. Which would be Kid Buu since he's totally different than the other Buu's. He's the first most troublesome.
You can use EML statements as well, but I can also find the same statements that state Kid Buu is the strongest, and that's from Super. Verbatim stated to be the mightiest multiple times within the story. With Goku even needed energy of the universe to win. It's hard to just deny all these statements. It was clearly the intent. The source material is always what will matter the most, so even if we play the scan game, we go about what's more consistent. I brought up all the relevant scans you need and all manga evidence that remain consistent enough to say Kid Buu is the strongest, that Goku beats Ultimate Gohan by the end at least. Narrative, Authors intent, blatant statements, etc. Goku is even stated to be the strongest by the end, him along with Kid Buu which places Goku over Ultimate Gohan. It's stated if they lost, Kid Buu would have killed everyone. Oh and there's also Toriyama yet again confirming the last version of Buu is the strongest. And please, don't be pedantic about statements such as Vegeta stating Goku is the ONLY one who can fight him. "Oh but Gohan is dead so he doesn't count". Gohan can easily be given a body by Enma and brought back just like what happened for Vegeta. The narrative clearly places emphasis of Goku being the strongest multiple times. There's almost nothing for Gohan when you read the statements correctly and go over authors intent.
So my proposal? Since I've given pretty solid, concrete evidence of Kid Buu being stronger than Gohan (Spirit Bomb, Vegeta and Goku's statements, etc) that eliminates Super Buu>Kid Buu entirely from what I've seen. As for Gotenks, Gohan, and Goku? That much is simple. Goku is to be given a Varies rating. Gotenks power increase is just unknown after Goten and Trunks' ROSAT training. We don't know how much stronger Super Buu actually got upon absorbing Innocent Buu so it's just an unknown. Would be around 50x at least since Piccolo thought Gotenks could maybe beat Super Buu after witnessing his power (which can't be sensed all that accurately, but he knew Super Buu was still above Fat Buu). But what we do know is that Ultimate Gohan is just a bit stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and that Goku would be stronger than Super Buu. Goku can fight opponents on the level of Fat Buu and make it appear like it's a somewhat even fight, but depending on how much power he outputs, he can vaporize opponents on the level of Super Buu even without a full charge. In the Kid Buu fight, if he charges up to the absolute max, he can destroy opponents on the level of Kid Buu who are stronger than every Super Buu iteration. Even if you want to say that Goku is weaker than Gohan and Gotenks Pre-Kid Buu fight, that'd be completely fine since Goku fighting Kid Buu just shows he got stronger. Not to mention we didn't see Goku go all out (besides full power) until the very end, with concrete statements. He was even doing better in his fight against Kid Buu and was less exhausted than he was against Fat Buu even while using more power (Goku after Fat Buu vs against Kid Buu while using far more power). As I showed, Goku was literally exausted after not nearly going all out after the battle. It was not the same with Kid Buu when where he fought him all out and then tried to charge up to max power with a living body as well. Something clearly changed. Next up, Gohan didn't even grow stronger at all after having his potential unlocked, fighting a powerful foe, and being healed from near death. We never see Gohan charge his Ki, rage boost, or any of the attributes that we know Ultimate has. Yet we absolutely know Goku can output far higher power than what he shows initially since Super Saiyan 3 is also a form that draws out your potential. Goku can go from fighting a Kid Buu who is somewhat holding back to absolutely obliterating him at full power no matter what. To be honest, Super Saiyan 3 doesn't have to be given a set multiplier based on what we've been shown, especially considering the at least 50x gap between Fat Buu and Super Buu. So with the statements of Goku getting stronger as he fights, experiences battles, arguably getting a fusion amp from being Super Vegito and witnessing that power for himself, you can argue he got stronger. Regardless, we did witness an increase in power by the time he fights Kid Buu. So the scale would look something like this:
FP SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Regular Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Kid Buu fight)>Buuhan>Buutenks>Ultimate Gohan>=SS3 Gotenks ? SS3 Goku>Super Buu. Fat Buu would not scale to Post-ROSAT Gotenks or any Super Buu variation, nor Gotenks since the power increase is unknown. Goku would be given a varies rating. For example, 'Son Goku, 4-B, far higher with charged Ki' or '4-B, varies depending on how much Ki he's built up'. Something along those lines since it really does matter at this point.
Based on this comment here, these were the options proposed as valid:
- The Buuhan Agenda:
- SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > Maxed SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Gohan > Default Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta
- The Pure Kid Buu Agenda:
- SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Maxed SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks> Gohan > Default Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta
Agree: Qawsedf234 (Kid Buu Agenda), Vietthai96 (either option), Godernet (Agrees with Buuhan Agenga, Neutral on Kid Buu Agenda), Nierre (Buuhan Agenda)
Neutral: Random-Helper323 (leaning towards Buuhan Agenda)
Disagree: KingTempest, Damage3245, DarkDragonMedeus
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