The Most Troublesome Buu: Buu scaling revision

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

i agree with op

 

[AwkguyDB]

I agree OP

 

[InfinityUltron]

I agree with this, seems about right and you did explain it well.

 

[Shar122]

Seems blatant enough, I agree.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Well this is an interesting thread. Leaning towards agreeing for now

 

[Sus]

for me it seems goku being stronger was a decision that came after gohan was made the strongest

gonna see what damage has to say

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

As a former Buuhan>Kid Buu believer, I'm gonna agree with this thread

 

[OrangeFR]

Leaning in agreement rn

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure atm.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm unsure atm.

If you want, I'll ping you when my response to the OP is up. Should be in a few hours.

 

[Saqphire]

Kid Buu rep? Instant agree from me

 

[Godernet]

I’ll take a look at this later today

 

[Damage3245]

Spoiler

We can start here by clearing some things up. In the original manga for starters, it isn't really stated that Gohan has surpassed Goku outright when his potential unleashed. The only reference we have is Goku being shocked at how much hidden potential Gohan has which he was previously unaware of. This isn't counting guides, but just what was actually stated when Gohan received this power from Elder Kai. It goes on to show Goku's shocked face when powering up but that doesn't inherently mean that Gohan surpassed Goku in power. Goku can be surprised and still stronger than Gohan. He did train over 7 years, and Gohan's potential increases as he trains and grows more powerful. That's a reason the ultimate form isn't stagnant; It's because Gohan's power doesn't have a cap. Not to mention what played a part in Goku's reaction was Goku being surprised that he could output this much power while not even turning Super Saiyan. Not that this level of power in general was impossible. So just keep that in mind. I'm not saying that Gohan 100 percent wasn't stronger, that it's just less concrete, but I'll get to more on that shortly.


I'll touch on Gotenks next since people like to bring up a statement of Goku's. Goku says here to Piccolo that he promised Buu that there are two people stronger than him to come fight him in a couple days. This is not a good argument since Goku only told Buu this to get him to cease his destruction until that day arrives. Goku has no idea on how powerful the fusion will actually be. What implications are there to back up such a claim when it isn't directly stated? And mind you, only Super Gotenks Pre-RoSAT training is capable of beating Fat Buu and not Base Gotenks who literally got beat up. Here, Goku doesn't even say that someone stronger than himself will actually appear. Buu just asked "Are they strong?" and then it was left at that. Goku only promised that they would show up in a few days time and defeat them. Nothing about them being stronger. So kind of a weird writing issue here since I didn't detect anything different in the translations. However, it's the same either way since Goku said this and/or would say this to pique Buu's interest and have them stop the destruction, which was later admitted he was a fool for expecting Buu to stop regardless. Right here, Goku is only impressed that Gotenks was able to learn SS3 in such a short time even when it took Goku years to learn it. That makes sense with the narrative since they just seem to be extremely talented. Being the youngest Super Saiyans and all and mastering fusion in a very short time. It's only natural with S-Cells and stuff like that coming into play.


Next, Goku powers down in front of Super Buu while Gohan was off guard and not next to him whatsoever. Goku straight up calls Buu's power disappointing and that "Even Gohan alone can handle you now" obviously meaning they don't have to resort to fusion and Gohan can just mop him up. This does NOT mean Super Buu is stronger for a few reasons. Which I'll get into right now. First of all, Goku's wording here "Even Gohan alone" is quite significant because he's using Gohan as a sort of gauge for power. It's a possible interpretation but what makes it stronger is Goku's other dialogue. Gohan isn't even worried about his dad who is supposedly supposed to be way weaker than himself and Super Buu yet he doesn't go up there to help him at all. Buu doesn't attack Goku either and is literally sweating and is faced with genuine fear until he makes up his mind about absorbing Gohan. If Buu was way stronger, why not attack GOKU and absorb him faster than he'd react? Buu's purpose was to KILL Goku to stop fusion. Why not continue what he was doing? Buu can easily blow himself up at any time to catch Gohan off guard like he did before, or just blow up the earth. Why stop? Well the answer is because Buu knows Goku is stronger and has Super Saiyan 3 which he's shown the capability to transform instantly and mess up Buu if he starts shit. There's nothing stopping Buu right here. Why would he be afraid of Gohan if he's all the way down at the ground while Goku is RIGHT THERE? Sure, he had a plan already to detach a piece of himself, but it's also possible Goku could have been on Guard which Buu knows since he SAW Buutenks do it. Why not Kill Goku? It's painfully clear that Goku is not inferior at all. Not to mention that this is Buu making up his mind, absorption being his only option. Killing Goku wasn't one of them. Goku just felt confident his son could handle it since that's what Gohan set out to do in the first place and you know how Goku was going on about the next generation. The situation was under control to the best of Goku's knowledge. In his mind, Gohan would just go up there and stop Buu then that's the end.

• There was nothing stopping Buu from attacking Goku.
• There was no reason for Buu to be sweating in front of Goku at first unless he though absorbing Gohan was the BEST chance instead of a confrontation with Goku himself head on.
• There was no reason for Gohan to be so laid back about Goku up there with a mass psychotic murder who's stronger than his father and could kill or absorb him in an instant which is a technique Gohan KNOWS he has and so does Goku
• There IS a reason for Goku to give the fight to Gohan and let him just finish it since the situation was under control. It's akin to Moro arc Goku being caught off guard by a BS power he didn't know existed, just a little watered down here obviously since he wasn't aware Buu had hidden the other piece.

TL;DR?


There is nothing suggesting that Goku was inferior to Super Buu at any point upon his return to earth. Goku was simply stronger than Fat Buu but we didn't even know how MUCH. Goku wasn't even at full power either and he was passively getting weaker due to SS3 draining a lot of energy, especially in the living world where it effects his body differently. So yes, Goku doesn't have to be inferior to Super Buu at all, in fact, there is nothing suggesting he was ever weaker. Goku's power varies based on how much he's charged up, and even then, he could of Beaten Fat Buu in that specific state. SS3 Goku (Dead + LV+ Non-FP)>Super Buu. So based on everything we've seen, Goku can still be weaker than Gohan and Gotenks at the time and still be stronger than Super Buu. At worst, Goku is relative to Gotenks and Gohan at this point.

I don't have an issue with most of what you've said here. I agree that Ultimate Gohan isn't stated explicitly to surpass SSJ3 Goku, nor is SSJ3 Gotenks stated explicitly to be superior to SSJ3 Goku.

However, I think there are implications that SSJ3 Gotenks (and therefore by extension Ultimate Gohan) are superior to SSJ3 Goku. I think what we can agree on is this much firstly:

SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu (As stated by Goku)

SSJ3 Goku < Buutenks < Buuhan (As stated by Elder Kai)

This much is clear from direct statements. But it is difficult to know for certain how SSJ3 Goku compares to Super Buu and Buucolo because he only gets direct comparisons to other forms of Buu above, but I think your interpretation of the scene with Goku and Buucolo isn't hard evidence for him being clearly superior. Let's go over what we know first:

Firstly we know that SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku are comparable to each other due to their fight, and we know that SSJ2 Vegeta is inferior to Fat Buu. And based on Piccolo's reaction to base Gotenks after fusing, we know that he believes that Gotenks is definitely superior enough to stand a chance of beating Fat Buu, due to Fat Buu being inferior to Super Buu as the OP points out, and he feels that Gotenks can potentially fight Super Buu without transforming.

SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ2 Gotenks > SSJ1 Gotenks > Base Gotenks > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku.

So base Gotenks after considerable amounts of Hyperbolic Time Chamber training is definitely superior to base Goku. No comment is made about their transformations being wildly different from each other, so it follows then that:

Base Gotenks > Base Goku
SSJ1 Gotenks > SSJ1 Goku
SSJ2 Gotenks > SSJ2 Goku
SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

Now, SSJ3 Gotenks is ultimately superior to Super Buu but they have a fairly close and competitive battle with each other extending over multiple chapters. So there is room for SSJ3 Goku to be inferior to Gotenks while still being possibly superior to Super Buu, but in my view the balance of evidence doesn't support it when base Gotenks alone is currently being scaled to be comparable or superior to SSJ2 Vegeta.

Regarding your observations of the scene between Goku and Buucolo here:

There was nothing stopping Buu from attacking Goku.

I can think of a few reasons beyond just "SSJ3 Goku is superior to Buucolo." Goku has instant transmission as Buucolo just felt Goku appearing out of nowhere, and as shown later Goku's instant transmission is so fast that he could even evade an attack from Buuhan. If Buucolo rushed him to kill or absorb him, there's no guarantee he'd hit him.

And just because Goku could instantly transform back into SSJ3 if Buucolo did try something is not the same as Goku being superior to Buucolo. He could be inferior to him and still just survive his attack. After all Vegeta is inferior to Kid Buu yet he survived his attacks, Gohan was inferior to Buutenks yet he survived his attacks, etc. Many more examples could be found but basically all it means is that Goku wouldn't get one-shot by Buucolo if he did believe that Buucolo could've launched an attack before Gohan would intervene. It doesn't prove superiority on Goku's part.

There was no reason for Buu to be sweating in front of Goku at first unless he though absorbing Gohan was the BEST chance instead of a confrontation with Goku himself head on.

It isn't just a direct confrontation with Goku alone. Gohan is still in the fight and will jump in if Buucolo rushed Goku. The situation reversed from a 1 vs. 2 that he could handle easily to a 2 vs. 1 where he is definitely inferior to at least one of the two. He exhibits momentary nervousness but that isn't directed as Goku specifically.

There was no reason for Gohan to be so laid back about Goku up there with a mass psychotic murder who's stronger than his father and could kill or absorb him in an instant which is a technique Gohan KNOWS he has and so does Goku

I wouldn't say that Gohan is being intentionally laidback. The scene takes place very quickly and Gohan isn't in the best headspace due to being beat up by Super Buu moments ago. He clumsily fails to catch the Potara, frantically searches for it and then just as he gets it he is taken aback by Buutenks de-trasnforming to Buucolo. Before he can really do anything Buucolo activates his trap and absorbs him. That's not a sign anywhere of Gohan intentionally staying back because he believes Goku can beat Buu.

There IS a reason for Goku to give the fight to Gohan and let him just finish it since the situation was under control. It's akin to Moro arc Goku being caught off guard by a BS power he didn't know existed, just a little watered down here obviously since he wasn't aware Buu had hidden the other piece.

I agree that the situation is under control but it doesn't follow that the situation is under control because Goku is equal to Buccolo. As he said, Gohan alone can handle Buucolo whereas before both Goku and Gohan together wouldn't be able to defeat Buutenks. It is a huge relief compared to the situation they were in just moments ago so Goku can afford to be laidback.

So I do not believe that the scene is strong enough evidence of Goku's superiority to Super Buu.

---

Onto the Kid Buu stuff now...

Spoiler

Okay we can move onto the strongest Buu Debate. This should be obvious but Innocent Buu is the weakest by far since his power went into the Evil Buu upon splitting, and Fat Buu would be above both of these versions since he's just the same but not split and containing all of his power. So we have this order going from weakest to strongest:

• Innocent Buu
• Evil Buu
• Fat Buu

Next up is obviously Super Buu since he absorbed the other portion of his power and changed into a new being entirely. At first it was stated by Piccolo that he just has a body suited for combat, but later he says EVERYTHING about Buu is stronger which confirms Super Buu is just stronger than Fat Buu. Piccolo also tells Gotenks and Trunks that they must train as hard as they can after not denying that Super Gotenks could beat Fat Buu previously. Next, Buu absorbs Gotenks and becomes way stronger clearly, and Buuhan is way stronger than that. And I do want to state that due to Buu's absorption not being like Potara or Fusion dance, it's only additive, so Buu didn't get much stronger between Buutenks and Buuhan, especially since Gohan was only a BIT stronger than Gotenks from their own admission. So obviously here's the continued ranking:

• Super Buu
• Buutenks
• Buuhan

I don't have a problem with this section. Makes sense to me.

But as for the next parts:

Gonna get into Kid Buu scaling now. The fun part. First of all, Kid Buu is verbatim stated to be the most troublesome Buu. It's stated that Buu lost power when he absorbed the Kaioshin which YES includes both the Grand Supreme Kai and South Supreme Kai. People only say it was only the GSK that weakened Kid Buu which is not the case. 'Heart' weakens Kid Buu. All the Supreme Kai's are good, they have heart, along being very powerful. This is also supported by the fact that when Fat Buu was removed (Who contains Grand Supreme Kai) Buu's power started to go UP and not fall immediately. It was pointed out to me recently that this could actually mean BUUHAN instead of Super Buu. The entire point of going inside of Buu was lowering his power from his most powered up form which was Buuhan at the time. Goku and Vegeta stating his Ki actually went up is very likely resorting to the highest power he's had the ENTIRE time up until this point, not just from Super Buu. But it doesn't matter either way since since we know Heart weakens Buu, he'd be getting two entire powerups from Super Buu, (Loss of GSK and SSK) which already puts him above Buuhan anyways, which leads into another point I was going to get into here. Before that, it also mentions "absorptions" in plural. Japanese doesn't really have plural and its more context based. So when Kibito Kai talks about the Kai's and specifically says the ABSORPTIONS weakened Buu, it absolutely is talking about both. And most translations translate it to mean plural regardless. GSK only made Buu become more controllable since he was much gentler than the other Kais, which makes sense. Buff Buu may of actually been able to talk but we didn't see it at all. Mild Mannered = More controllable. 'Heart' = Weakened when he's in his pure state and not in a weird overlap like Super Buu. Overlap in this case just means Buu actually gaining power from his absorptions since he's an offshoot. Even if I were to Grant it only being GSK weakening Buu, it simply means Buff Buu and Kid Buu are way stronger than any Buu form that is above Fat Buu or Fat Buu himself. They don't have that limiter on them at all. We know for a fact that it still affects all the other Buu's that have GSK absorbed since Super Buu got stronger upon removal.

I think you're making a false equivocation between "most troublesome" and strongest. The context for why Kid Buu is the most troublesome is because he's the most uncontrollable and he's pure evil. He's now "untamed."

I don't think it has definitely been shown that absorbing South Kai was a net debuff to Buu like how absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai was. The absorptions in total would've weakened him down to below his original level, but that doesn't mean the first absorption by itself did.

I also see no reason why Goku and Vegeta would be comparing him to Buuhan specifically when they comment on his Chi rising. First they felt his Chi shrink down earlier when he returned to being Super Buu. So they already know that Buu isn't as strong as he was before. If they're commenting on Buu's power rising as Buff Buu, then it makes sense that they mean he is rising from his current level which is Super Buu's power level, not Buuhan's.

Next I'll get into something else entirely which is Buu's nature. Evil is a force in Dragon Ball. The strongest people tend to be evil usually, which is a sentiment that was brought forth in the Moro saga during Merus and Goku's conversations. Kid Buu has a consciousness. He can get scared, he can laugh, he can mock, he can understand. Thats what makes him so dangerous. He doesn't care about anything, he exist simply to destroy. That is the sole purpose in which he was created. So you have to ask yourself, if a force that was meant to be the incarnation of evil was created, why wouldn't they suffer from having external forces that clash against them be absorbed into their very being? That's exactly what Toriyama was trying to convey. Kid Buu is the pure idea of evil, he is at his most powerful when he is in his pure state.

It becomes especially apparent when all the power of Fat Buu went to Evil Buu. So for a being like Buu at least, the more evil, the stronger. Why wouldn't Kid Buu be the most powerful of his forms? He's literally the embodiment of evil itself.

Evilness is not literally a force that is the only factor in how strong an individual is in Dragon Ball. Correlation does not imply causation; just because Merus remarks that most strong individuals tend to be evil doesn't mean that the more evil they are, the stronger they become. Kid Buu being pure evil means that he is inherently more dangerous, more chaotic than other forms of Buu but that doesn't gurantee that he has the highest raw power. It's been shown with multiple other absorptions (Evil Buu eating Fat Buu, Buutenks, Buuhan, etc) that Buu can get stronger and stronger without becoming more evil from it. It definitely doesn't prove that if Buu has even a little bit of goodness within him that he will always be weaker than when he is pure evil.

Now onto Supreme Kai. Why would he be SO AFRAID if Kid Buu was so much weaker than the forms they had just encountered? It makes absolutely no sense when his entire lore dump on Buu was about how the he went on a rampage, killed the Kai's, and absorbed some of them which lowered his power. Now that he's gained that power back and is the force of evil he was meant to be, he WILL be the most dangerous and troublesome. Not just because he's "unrestrained". Buu can hold back and has done so before as we've seen. He's just as destructive as the other Buu's who tried to destroy the earth like Buutenks. They all caused terrible destruction. "Yeah Supreme Kai is freaking out since they have to fight a Buu who is 5x weaker than before, the horror". It's a non argument, absolutely irrelevant since Supreme Kai knows the idea of Vegito going inside of Buu was to make him weaker. He should be HAPPY, but he's not. Fighting wildly would make Buu even less of a threat since he can be predictable, especially against an opponent who's stronger. I'll go over debunks now.

Characters in a work don't operate on a purely powerscaling mindset that we have as readers outside of the work. Supreme Kai is exhibting an emotional response because he recognizes the version of Buu that he has personal experience with, that killed his friends/colleagues and rampaged across the Universe. Again, being the most dangerous and troublesome isn't the same as being the most powerful. I don't think that fighting chaotically would make Buu less threatening; in fact one of the first things Buu does upon achieving his Kid Buu form is to try and destroy the planet without a thought. Something that the other versions of Buu wouldn't have done on a whim and only threatened to do after fighting for an extended period of time.

First claim: "Goku said himself and Vegeta would die to Super Buu, therefore Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu and Buuhan since they fought him evenly and stated at full power Kid Buu would be killed by SS3 Goku".

• This claim is bad for a couple reasons. First off, Goku was talking about their CURRENT state inside of Super Buu. Goku says if they go out as they are now, they'd be killed. This is important for a couple reasons which I'll bring up, and no, they were not talking about fusion here. They were extremely small. Far, far smaller than even fleas which is why their energy couldn't even so much as dent Super Buu's head lining. Goku stated he would be able to do it, or at least THINKS he'd be able to do it in just regular Super Saiyan. He's even SURPRISED when he finds out it doesn't do anything later. So Goku the entire time would be sensing his WEAKENED energy and comparing it to Super Buu, unless you think Goku can't sense his own energy which you need to prove (You can't). If anything, Goku couldn't even grasp the EXTENT of his weakness since he was under the impression he could blow a huge hole through Buu's body even while tiny. The claim that "Goku didn't know he was tiny or weak" doesn't hold up for some major reasons. First off is Goku's statement obviously, he has no reason to think he ISN'T small since he knows they are inside of Buu's body. You'd have to prove without a shadow of a doubt he didn't know. And this is not burden shifting since claiming Goku didn't know is has far less evidence than Goku just straight up knowing. I mean, it's the entire plan that they conjured up while being Vegito. It makes LESS sense than him knowing. Super Buu only points out specifically how small they really are once Goku overestimates how nerfed he is. Even if he DIDN'T know (somehow) he'd still be talking about his weakened energy the entire time since they are objectively weakened here, so that's all they'd have to gauge for their strength. Back to the other point about the first scan, Goku also has Zero reason to assume he'd go back to normal after going out. He was even visibly surprised when they went back to full size as well as the others. So either interpretation leads to this statement talking about weakened Goku, with Buu also knowing and admitting it. And Goku being ignorant to the mechanics of Buu's body and their current state overall.

This is where I think you're leaning too strongly into your own interpretation of the scene and treating it as fact. Goku and Vegeta don't directly bring up their shrunken size or reduced power level as the reason for why they'd be inferior to Super Buu. They don't have any reason to believe that they are now permanently as small and weak as they are in that moment. If that is all it was, they could've brought up the possibility of just returning to their normal selves as a way to solve the issue but they don't.

In the full context of the scene, after Goku laments that they still are unable to beat Super Buu, he remarks that it's Vegeta's fault because he destroyed the Potara.

だから おめえが ポタラを こわしちまうから
“It’s your fault for smashing the Potara…”

This context makes it clear to me what Goku means by "If we go out like this". He means if they go out singularly as themselves. He even brings up an alternative that will save them which is combining once again but via the Fusion Dance.

Second Claim: "Kid Buu's power went down and the statement only refers to Buff Buu being stronger".

• This is stupid for a couple reasons. Buu's power is almost impossible to fully gauge at times, which makes it difficult for the opponent to get a read on it. Along with that, there was no ACTUAL statement of Kid Buu's power dropping. It had no reason to and there's no justifiable explanation either. It's explained by Buu's power being hard to read, Buu being suppressed, along with Goku and Vegeta getting cocky because of his size. And it's all invalidated by Buu taking it semi seriously literally a moment later and putting a bit of power behind his attacks. This means Goku and Vegeta were WRONG about being able to take on Buu (To the best of Goku's knowledge). They instantly eat their words and basically say they are screwed if he throws it. Goku had to resort to literal begging. Goku has Vegeta right there AND can transform into SS3 instantly. Goku believed he couldn't take that head on so he ran. So this is a defeater to the claim since they are proven wrong. Therefore, you can't actually prove Buu's power just dropped for no reason at all. So Kid Buu>Buff Buu>Super Buu/Buuhan.

I don't think that Buu's power is quite so unfathomable that we can't get any useful information from the character's sensing Buu's power level. Here's a few cases:

1) Piccolo sensing Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu.

2) Goku and Vegeta sensing that Buuhan's power had dropped back down to Super Buu's level.

3) Goku and Vegeta sensing that Buff Buu was gaining more Chi than he had as Super Buu.

So changes to Buu's Chi are indeed readable by the characters. Now, this doesn't preclude them from underestimating or overestimating their opponents, which can happen, but we can still get rough indicators.

Goku and Vegeta aren't complete idiots. If they felt Super Buu's Chi rising dramatically when he became Buff Buu, and then Buu continued to get even stronger after that, they're not going to suddenly forget that they felt his Chi rising when they see he became a small guy. They've got experience with Freiza. They know that a smaller opponent doesn't mean a weaker opponent.

What must've happened is that after they felt Buu's Chi rise as Buff Buu, they must've felt Buu's Chi fall back down when he settled into being Kid Buu. That's the most reasonable explanation for their confidence in being able to think they have a chance after Kid Buu. The two of them knew they didn't have any kind of chance moments ago against Buuhan; they're not going to be thinking they can take on someone who got even stronger than Buuhan.

The point about them panicking over the stronger blast that Kid Buu charges up doesn't hold up as them being wrong. FIrstly, we know that Dragon Ball characters can charge up attacks to launch far stronger ones that they can dish out normally. And secondly Goku and Vegeta didn't express worry for themselves; they were worried that they wouldn't be able to deflect the blast from destroying the Earth. They wanted Kid Buu to fight them; their reaction is not "Oh no, we can't beat him", it's "Oh no, he's going to blow up the Earth without even fighting us."

Third claim: "Buutenks/Buuhan claimed he is stronger than ever before so that means Kid Buu"

• More problems. First of all, prove Super Buu of any form knows of Kid Buu's existence. There is nothing to support this at all. Best you got it Super Buu claiming "I won't be me anymore". But what exactly does this have to do with Kid Buu? I mean, no shit Super Buu won't be himself anymore. He only exist because Evil Buu absorbed Fat Buu. Does Fat Buu have memories of his time as Buff Buu or Pure Buu? Any proof of that? Better yet, prove that Buu knows he got weaker as a result of absorbing the Kais. Both things are impossible to prove. Fat Buu knows Bibidi and Babidi since Fat Buu was around to be ruled by Bibidi. Fat Buu completely changed from Buff Buu, an arguable still damn near mindless monster so there isn't even concrete evidence for that claim. In order for it to be seen as valid and not just going with the obvious interpretation just to wank Buu's gloating, then there's nothing. Buuhan could easily be referring to how he's stronger than ever since becoming Super Buu in general. Super Buu is not Fat Buu, Buff Buu, or Kid Buu. Evil Buu is a literal off shoot of Fat Buu, then they merge to become a different being altogether with just added power and intelligence from Piccolo and Gohan. In the Raw, Buutenks doesn't even mention the past either way so it can't be used regardless. Only Buuhan's statement can and that's it, which I already debunked if you can't prove what you need to make it valid. I should also mention that Buuhan's statement is a complete mistranslation. He only says he powered up even more from his previous state, which is obvious. Not "I'm stronger than I've ever been". Therefore, it's invalid to use. I'm just saying that even if I steelmanned these arguments, it still falls completely short. It wouldn't of mattered regardless but still.

I think you raise a fine point here regarding the raws for Buutenks' statement not specifically mentioning the past, and Buuhan's statement being in relation just to his previous form. But I think your first argument is questionable because at what point is Buu ever suggested to suffer from memory issues related to his absorption or transformations? We don't need to directly prove that Fat Buu can remember being Buff Buu or Kid Buu because we know from his later transformations that he remembers his previous experiences quite well. As Buutenks, he recalled fighting Goku back when he was Fat Buu.

And Buutenks' full statement still has him describing himself as the most powerful Majin:

この瞬間こそ未来においても二度と現れぬであろう最強の魔人の誕生だ

“This very moment marks the birth of the mightiest Majin - one that will likely never appear again, even in the future.”

He's the only Majin in existence in the present, so his statement logically should be encompassing the past by default otherwise he wouldn't be comparing himself to anything.

Additional Arguments for Kid Buu: He was pushing back a Spirit Bomb with the power of Gohan, all Z fighters, Earth, Namek, and the afterlife. Even with all the Z fighters energy, Goku STILL said it wasn't going to be enough to put down kid Buu, and he was actively pushing it back even when fully completed. Goku needed his FULL POWER to gather enough energy to amplify and push it into Kid Buu. And no, the argument "Genki isn't regular Ki" or "Genki isn't battle power" is absolutely wrong. Genki is literally just vitality. Actual tangible energy that you use for empowering yourself and fighting. Everyone was so drained of energy that they couldn't even TELEPORT whatsoever. This is an insane feat since to be that drained requires your energy to basically be Zero. Even earthlings were passing out from exertion. Which means Genki is the actual energy you need to LIVE. All evidence points towards the Super Spirit Bomb being arguably the most impressive display of power shown so far, even being stated to be immeasurable. Only thing that would be greater is Super Vegito. We have to understand that a Spirit Bomb of this magnitude with the Z-fighters energy (including Gohan), all of Earth, Namek, and the otherworld? Not to mention just the energy of some of the universe in general? It would far surpass Ultimate Gohan in strength since that power gets magnified.

• 元 (gen): origin, source, foundation 気 (ki): spirit, energy 勇 (yū): bravery, valor 気 (ki): spirit, energy 正 (shō): correct, true, proper 気 (ki): spirit, energy Shoki and Yuki are things that ARE Ki. They make it so you can use your Genki to the best of your ability, but it's not just the actual raw energy that's inside you. If the spirit bomb only takes Genki, then why were the earthlings tired if they only lost 1/3rd of their Ki? Why couldn't Supreme Kai teleport if he still had Shoki and Yuki left? Simple, because Genki is the actual energy and battle power. It's your life force, your spirit, that's all. So when Gohan gives his energy along with all the Z fighters and it's added together and increased in power, that just means Ultimate Gohan is not enough for Kid Buu whatsoever. And this is before the Genki Dama got like 4 times larger as well.

I think there's a slight misunderstanding here; they make it very clear in the manga that the problem isn't with the Spirit Bomb not being strong enough (nobody says they need more power for the Spirit Bomb once it is complete), the problem is solely with Goku not being strong enough to launch the Spirit Bomb at Kid Buu.

Once Goku's stamina is restored and he is able to succeed in launching the Spirit Bomb, Kid Buu is completely destroyed by it. The power of the Spirit Bomb isn't what was lacking in order to destroy Kid Buu, it was only the power required to push it at him.

Vegeta states here that he was NOT going to bring Gotenks and Gohan back to jump Kid Buu since in his mind it wouldn't work. Goku only thinks those two could HELP defeat Kid Buu. If Goku did think it was the best way, he would of outright said it and rejected the idea of using the spirit bomb if the former was the better option that secured victory. And it absolutely would be the simplest option. He tells Kibito Kai to go get Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. They fuse, and SS3 Gotenks jumps Kid Buu along with Gohan and innocent Buu. And Goku isn't an idiot, if he thought it would work, he absolutely would have said so. We have some examples of this actually. Goku states Vegito could do it absolutely no problem. Goku and Vegeta also stated that Goku's SS3 would definitely be able to beat Buu. So why would Vegeta take the infinitely harder option? I understand his whole "letting the people of earth save themselves for once" sentiment, but it was still the only option. Goku didn't deny it either when Vegeta told him they would be using ALL the energy they could instead of just a tiny bit. He calls Vegeta crazy at first, but then is all in on the idea once Vegeta elaborates. Spirit Bomb (Full energy)>Gohan and SS3 Gotenks jumping Buu>Spirit Bomb (a little energy at once). So clearly the "Super Spirit Bomb" was the best and only option that Goku never actually doubts and thinks can just straight up win while he and Vegeta think the other two Can't.

I should touch on Vegeta's character as well. The reason he goes to fight Kid Buu either way is that he believed it was HIS fault for making it harder on Goku, so he owns up to his mistakes. Goku ADMITS that they should have just fused in the first place. Vegeta REALIZES that Goku didn't actually want to particularly fight Buu solo in the first place. That's why he says "We're you being considerate towards me?" when he realizes. That was in the raw btw. It's the far right panel on the second page. Vegeta realizes he projected his own ideals onto Goku which Goku followed along and realized it was a mistake. That he as trying to act too cool and got cocky since he was just psyching himself up to fight. He even admitted he didn't know if he could do a THING to Buu before fighting, yet did anyway since he was thinking about Vegeta. That's why he was saying things like "You might not get a turn" after admitting to Vegeta he didn't know if he could actually do shit. It's a mask basically. So why would Vegeta make it harder on Goku by suggesting worse options to defeat Buu? It goes against his character development and makes no sense within the narrative. It's only consistent AND correct if Vegeta just doesn't think Gohan and Gotenks will cut it.

Vegeta doesn't state that bringing Gohan and Gotenks to fight wouldn't work. He just says that his plan is to use the Spirit Bomb. And Goku doesn't state in the raws as far as I can tell that Gohan and Gotenks would only be a help against Buu (and if he believed that Kid Buu was far stronger than even Buuhan, wouldn't Goku himself have pointed out that they could offer no help whatsoever?)

Again I have to point out that characters aren't purely logical combat machines that always pick the best options or strategies. They could have fused earlier if they were solely concerned with making the most optimal moves. They didn't; they preferred to fight on their own. They could have used the wish from Porunga to simply wish for a new pair of Potara earrings since they already acknowledged that as Vegeto they could've won, but they didn't despite that being even less risky than having to charge up a Spirit Bomb for an extended period of time.

Also, the idea that Goku was following along with Vegeta's assumption that Goku was holding back against Kid Buu out of consideration towards Vegeta is wrong as Vegeta realizes that Goku wasn't holding back at all. Also, from what I can tell of the raws, Goku doesn't admit that he doesn't think he can do anything against Buu; he just isn't 100% sure that he'll win and resolves to do his best.

Take this statement however you wish, but just know it does exist. Buuhan stated to gain power on the level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Regardless of how you take this, it doesn't really mean would in a fight with Buuhan or Buutenks. Goku wouldn't win in a fight of attrition with Buu since SS3 drains energy and he needs time to charge up to the absolute max. When fighting characters on the level of Super Buu, he doesn't need that full charge, but Buutenks and above he absolutely does since they have infinite regen, stamina, and don't lose energy while Goku does if you go with that scans interpretation. Goku didn't argue with Elder Kai since he knew his own capabilities and the drawbacks of Super Saiyan three, which is why he opted for fusion. Even without remembering it, he was going to do it anyways since he had no other choice regardless. I do think this isn't the most consistent in my opinion, however, it doesn't rule out Goku getting stronger by the end to be on Kid Buu's level so just keep that in mind.

I don't think I have anything to say on the statement of "Buuhan gaining power on level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku." From my earlier sections, I think there's enough evidence that SSJ3 Gotenks was superior to SSJ3 Goku already, which by extension would make Buuhan far stronger than him.

Vegeta states Kid Buu's power was beyond anything he could imagine, and so was Goku's. Vegeta didn't realize how strong Goku actually was this entire time. Vegeta has fought Fat Buu, he fought Buuhan as Vegito and actively witnessed his energy levels while inside Buu's body. This is clearly meant to display to us as readers just how powerful this Buu is. It's beyond anything we've seen up to this point. Saiyans get stronger mid fight, Goku was also part of a very strong fusion as well. Goku is fighting for the sake of the entire universe. He can easily just get stronger mid battle, nothing stops it, especially since he's experienced all these powerful foes with his own eyes and sensed their power. Whatever the explanation, it did happen. Goku initially believed he wouldn't be able to fight on par with Kid Buu at all, to being confident in his ability to destroy him at full power if he gets the chance. All this does is upscale Goku to Kid Buu level. Vegeta clearly had the same sentiment, Goku is just stronger than he imagined, his power was pretty unknown up to that point, especially since he can get stronger by charging up long enough.

Sure, SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu were stronger than Vegeta initially estimated them to be but that's all that it means. He isn't saying they're stronger than everything else that Vegeta has ever experienced. Vegeta has also experienced how powerful he was as Vegeto but he isn't saying that Kid Buu and Goku are even stronger than that.

I'm not convinced by the hand-wavy explanation of "Saiyans can just get stronger mid-fight", as a way of overlooking the discrepancies between Goku's performance against Super Buu earlier (where he was inferior against most of his forms), and SSJ3 Goku being comparable to Kid Buu. Goku and Vegeta are aware of their own nature as Saiyans and yet they never bring up the possibility that they'll just grow stronger as a solution to the problem. Against Buuhan earlier they had to resort to fusion because they simply had no alternative of beating Buuhan.

And there is no explanation for when this convenient power-increase would happen. It certainly didn't happen prior to the battle with Kid Buu as they were powerless against Buuhan. If I'm right that they felt they couldn't even taken on Super Buu after de-fusing then they didn't get a miraculous power increase following the fusion. So at some point between them getting outside of Kid Buu's body and them fighting Kid Buu in the Supreme Kai's realm, they (or at least Goku) got hundreds of times stronger without even fighting? It doesn't make sense and you'd think that if Goku or Vegeta had gotten far stronger than they did before, that they would've remarked on it at some point like "We stand far more of a chance now than before" but instead they act and perform much as the same as I'd expect them to before they fused together for the first time.

You can use EML statements as well, but I can also find the same statements that state Kid Buu is the strongest, and that's from Super. Verbatim stated to be the mightiest multiple times within the story. With Goku even needed energy of the universe to win. It's hard to just deny all these statements. It was clearly the intent. The source material is always what will matter the most, so even if we play the scan game, we go about what's more consistent. I brought up all the relevant scans you need and all manga evidence that remain consistent enough to say Kid Buu is the strongest, that Goku beats Ultimate Gohan by the end at least. Narrative, Authors intent, blatant statements, etc. Goku is even stated to be the strongest by the end, him along with Kid Buu which places Goku over Ultimate Gohan. It's stated if they lost, Kid Buu would have killed everyone. Oh and there's also Toriyama yet again confirming the last version of Buu is the strongest. And please, don't be pedantic about statements such as Vegeta stating Goku is the ONLY one who can fight him. "Oh but Gohan is dead so he doesn't count". Gohan can easily be given a body by Enma and brought back just like what happened for Vegeta. The narrative clearly places emphasis of Goku being the strongest multiple times. There's almost nothing for Gohan when you read the statements correctly and go over authors intent.

I think that some of those Dragon Ball Super statements are a bit misleading.

In this scan, it doesn't specify that it is Kid Buu exclusively which is the mightiest enemy of all time. The visual is of the climactic fight against Buu, but the statement mentions that Majin Buu forced all life on the planet to the brink of extinction. Kid Buu didn't do that; Super Buu did. It seems clear to me that statements of "Majin Buu being the strongest enemy Goku ever faced" is referring to Majin Buu overall, not his final form.

I won't be pedantic about the rest but I think that the statements take a lesser priority to displays of power throughout the manga which puts Kid Buu as more comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku, compared to him being far superior to Buuhan who is far stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku just minutes prior.

---

Overall I think you've made a fair number of worthwhile points and I can see how you arrived at the conclusion you did for your proposals, but based on my analysis above I find myself disagreeing with your interpretations of a number of scenes and statements. I think it isn't demonstrated clearly enough that SSJ3 Goku got incredibly stronger in virtually no time to be far superior to Buuhan who he was previously helpless against, and there is more than enough evidence that puts SSJ3 Goku as inferior to the likes of Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks beforehand.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mostly agree with Damage though I might want to mention that characters can get stronger when we least expect them due or Zenkai; or it is later revealed in Super Buu is another one of those characters similar to Beerus where then can just get mysteriously stronger for little to no reason. Goku in his SSJ2 form was evenly matched with Majin SSJ2 Vegeta back then, but it's possible the surprise punch that knocked out Goku prior to his fight with Fat Buu that he received a Zenkai from healing from Dende. Statements about Gotenks are also true, even before he got brutalized, his base form was at least as strong as Majin Vegeta, though training in RoSaT did power up to where in base he was stronger. It was also kind of overlooked that even before Gohan's transformation into Final/Ultimate Gohan, training with the Z Sword in hand made him grow significantly stronger. Goku also got a power up from training with it; still a stretch to even compare him to Final Gohan even with SSJ3, but there is indeed no full way to compare how much he grew compared to Gotenks.

But I ultimately do agree there is no proof of Kid Buu being the strongest Buu in combat PL as opposed to canon statements merely describing him as "More dangerous."

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Agree with Titled

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I mostly agree with Damage though I might want to mention that characters can get stronger when we least expect them due or Zenkai; or it is later revealed in Super Buu is another one of those characters similar to Beerus where then can just get mysteriously stronger for little to no reason. Goku in his SSJ2 form was evenly matched with Majin SSJ2 Vegeta back then, but it's possible the surprise punch that knocked out Goku prior to his fight with Fat Buu that he received a Zenkai from healing from Dende. Statements about Gotenks are also true, even before he got brutalized, his base form was at least as strong as Majin Vegeta, though training in RoSaT did power up to where in base he was stronger. It was also kind of overlooked that even before Gohan's transformation into Final/Ultimate Gohan, training with the Z Sword in hand made him grow significantly stronger. Goku also got a power up from training with it; still a stretch to even compare him to Final Gohan even with SSJ3, but there is indeed no full way to compare how much he grew compared to Gotenks.

But I ultimately do agree there is no proof of Kid Buu being the strongest Buu in combat PL as opposed to canon statements merely describing him as "More dangerous."

Are you willing to reevaluate your leanings after OP responds to Damage's points?

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Fully agree with the OP. Also, about half of the scans the OP posted were not really fully countered.
I might give a very detailed response to the counterarguments if the OP does not do that.

 

[TiltedFN]

This much is clear from direct statements. But it is difficult to know for certain how SSJ3 Goku compares to Super Buu and Buucolo because he only gets direct comparisons to other forms of Buu above, but I think your interpretation of the scene with Goku and Buucolo isn't hard evidence for him being clearly superior. Let's go over what we know first:

Firstly we know that SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku are comparable to each other due to their fight, and we know that SSJ2 Vegeta is inferior to Fat Buu.

Sort of. Vegeta was only equal to Goku with the Majin boost which is exactly the reason he submitted to Babidi.
Without that boost, he's pretty explicitly inferior. After witnessing Goku's power against Yakon, that's when he realized he definitely wasn't on Goku's level.
So I don't think we can actually call them equal here. If you mean SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta? If not? No. Best you could argue is later.

And based on Piccolo's reaction to base Gotenks after fusing, we know that he believes that Gotenks is definitely superior enough to stand a chance of beating Fat Buu, due to Fat Buu being inferior to Super Buu as the OP points out, and he feels that Gotenks can potentially fight Super Buu without transforming.

Super Buu IS superior to fat Buu, but we don't know by how much. Fat Buu got an actual rage boost when Mr. Satan got shot. To satiate that rage and evil building up, it came out and became Evil Buu so Majin Buu wouldn't be corrupted and taken over by it. I did say previously that the difference between Fat Buu and Super Buu would be at least 50x, but it's more like that's how much stronger Buu would of actually gotten from his rage boost. And I know this because of Base Gotenks surpassing his Super Saiyan version pre-ROSAT training in which Piccolo thought he could stand a chance against Buu based on what he himself thought Buu's power was. Obviously Piccolo can't sense Super Buu's full power, but he deduced it enough to say he was stronger than Fat Buu's previous power at the very least. But Super Buu is likely only a bit stronger than Fat Buu.

SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ2 Gotenks > SSJ1 Gotenks > Base Gotenks > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku.

You should probably specify pre and post ROSAT training, but sure.

So base Gotenks after considerable amounts of Hyperbolic Time Chamber training is definitely superior to base Goku. No comment is made about their transformations being wildly different from each other, so it follows then that:

Base Gotenks > Base Goku
SSJ1 Gotenks > SSJ1 Goku
SSJ2 Gotenks > SSJ2 Goku
SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

Why would Gotenks be superior to Goku? We aren't ever explicitly told that in the story which is the point I was making.
Goku only acted impressed and surprised that Gotenks was able to get Super Saiyan 3.
Super Saiyan 3 is a form that draws out the potential of a Saiyan to it's limits.
Can you prove Gotenks would have more hidden power than Goku at this point? Super Saiyan 3 isn't an average transformation as I've shown. The power varies and is decided based on multiple factors. So without an explicit statement of Gotenks actually being superior, we can't say for sure.
Again this doesn't actually affect much at this point in the story. I was just pointing out how there isn't anything wholly concrete when deciding the powers of these characters.

Now, SSJ3 Gotenks is ultimately superior to Super Buu but they have a fairly close and competitive battle with each other extending over multiple chapters.

Eh, not really. Gotenks was pretty explicitly above Super Buu and would have obliterated him if he didn't play around.
They are kids who are inexperienced. I wouldn't even say they are close in power if I'm being real. Buu was getting stomped on pretty badly.

So there is room for SSJ3 Goku to be inferior to Gotenks while still being possibly superior to Super Buu, but in my view the balance of evidence doesn't support it when base Gotenks alone is currently being scaled to be comparable or superior to SSJ2 Vegeta.

A Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta who doesn't even scale to a Super Saiyan 2 Goku regularly.
And like I said, Super Saiyan 3 isn't treated to be that simple of a powerup in this arc. It definitely depends on who's using it since it draws out potential.
Goku trained for 7 years, is more experienced, and shows he can draw out more power from the form easily. He can hold back to Fat Buu levels of power, and then the next can laugh in front of beings like Super Buu and fights beings on the level of Kid Buu while actively being drained of energy.
But yes, ultimately there is room for Goku to be inferior to Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan but superior to Super Buu. Glad we agree on that.
But so far, you haven't really proven why Goku would be inferior to Super Buu or what the balance of evidence somehow wouldn't support it.

Regarding your observations of the scene between Goku and Buucolo here:



I can think of a few reasons beyond just "SSJ3 Goku is superior to Buucolo." Goku has instant transmission as Buucolo just felt Goku appearing out of nowhere, and as shown later Goku's instant transmission is so fast that he could even evade an attack from Buuhan. If Buucolo rushed him to kill or absorb him, there's no guarantee he'd hit him.

Yeah but Buuhan is way further from Goku than Buuicolo was. And if that's the case, why didn't Goku teleport to Gohan when Buutenks rushed him? Instead he just transformed instantly and got ready to fight. So why does Buu have any reason to believe Goku would just teleport somewhere else when he didn't before?
Buu quite literally has no reason to think this but instead gets stopped in his tracks dead on.

And just because Goku could instantly transform back into SSJ3 if Buucolo did try something is not the same as Goku being superior to Buucolo. He could be inferior to him and still just survive his attack.

I never said Goku would get one shot, but he actively powered down in front of him. Why do this if Buuicolo could just kill him very quickly? If Goku was that much weaker than Super Buu, then Buu would just get ahold of him and tear him apart. Why would Goku actively allow himself to potentially be beat up? That doesn't make much sense.
It's far more likely that Goku just didn't feel threatened at all and felt comfortable powering down and letting Gohan finish the job like he was originally going to. This is a lot of reaching here. You're assuming:

• Goku would actively let himself be beat up
• Buu thinks he would teleport just because he didn't before
• And that Buu can't kill an inferior being if he gets his hands on him.

Base on what exactly?

After all Vegeta is inferior to Kid Buu yet he survived his attacks,

Yeah because we know Kid Buu was actively holding back. Kid Buu could have killed him whenever he wanted to if he really wanted. Dude was playing around.
Vegeta has good endurance (and likely got stronger her as well) but lets not act like Kid Buu wouldn't have him dead if he really wanted. But this is still presupposing that Goku would just let himself basically die for no reason?

Gohan was inferior to Buutenks yet he survived his attacks,

Buutenks was actively making sure Gohan didn't die. He makes this clear that he wants to have as much fun as possible before he defuses. Gohan was also able to avoid some shots that actually WOULD have possibly killed him early on. So this isn't a case of Gohan really surviving killing shots. It's made clear Buu would of ended everything at the end.

etc. Many more examples could be found but basically all it means is that Goku wouldn't get one-shot by Buucolo if he did believe that Buucolo could've launched an attack before Gohan would intervene. It doesn't prove superiority on Goku's part.

That's not really good enough on your part.
You're making a lot of wild claims here that don't really have any backing. Goku isn't gonna let himself get beat up for no reason, Goku isn't going to risk getting himself killed literally right after getting revived. That makes no sense. Goku felt in control of the situation and could leave it to his son.

It isn't just a direct confrontation with Goku alone. Gohan is still in the fight and will jump in if Buucolo rushed Goku.

But Gohan wasn't even next to Buu at all. If Gohan felt Goku was weaker, why not actually go up to him instead of just watching?
Did Gohan feel Goku was in danger at any moment during that interaction? If so, can you actually show me?
Is Gohan okay with getting his dad killed and leaving him up there with a being of evil that literally tried to kill Goku a second earlier?

The situation reversed from a 1 vs. 2 that he could handle easily to a 2 vs. 1 where he is definitely inferior to at least one of the two. He exhibits momentary nervousness but that isn't directed as Goku specifically.

Okay then why is Buu sweating? Buu set out to kill Goku right before, so what's stopping him now? Why not kill one to get to upperhand before the other intervenes? Like i said, Buu can easily blow himself up to buy time if he really needed it. There is just no reason for him not to attack here.

I wouldn't say that Gohan is being intentionally laidback. The scene takes place very quickly and Gohan isn't in the best headspace due to being beat up by Super Buu moments ago. He clumsily fails to catch the Potara, frantically searches for it and then just as he gets it he is taken aback by Buutenks de-trasnforming to Buucolo. Before he can really do anything Buucolo activates his trap and absorbs him. That's not a sign anywhere of Gohan intentionally staying back because he believes Goku can beat Buu.

But Gohan literally realizes what's going on. He's actively watching the battle. Dende literally healed him not that long ago. All Buu did to him was hit him with a Kiai. So at best he took a bit more damage. And based on your own argument, isn't Gohan not being in the best headspace and Buu still not attacking just more proof that Buu is clearly intimidated by Goku? Gohan isn't doing anything, and Goku is aware that Gohan had a hard time with Buu as well. Are we going to act like Gohan is reliable here when he's nowhere near Goku, just got beat up, and is onl actively watching them? What's stopping Buu here? Even if Buu isn't aware of Gohan's headspace, Gohan is the same one who let his guard down and allowed his little brother and mentor to be absorbed. Buu has Piccolo's intellect.

I agree that the situation is under control but it doesn't follow that the situation is under control because Goku is equal to Buccolo. As he said, Gohan alone can handle Buucolo whereas before both Goku and Gohan together wouldn't be able to defeat Buutenks. It is a huge relief compared to the situation they were in just moments ago so Goku can afford to be laidback.

But again, this isn't a defeater to anything I'm saying. There is no reason for Gohan to be that laid back even if he is a bit disheveled. There is no reason for Buu not to attack Goku when he was going to before. There is no reason Goku would call Buu's power a disappointment basically if he was still far stronger than he was. There is no reason for for Goku to risk letting himself get beat up and even killed for basically no reason; which in the process would waste the life Elder Kai gave him and give Buu a possible advantage when he has all sorts of tricks up his sleeve with Piccolo's newly added intellect.

So I do not believe that the scene is strong enough evidence of Goku's superiority to Super Buu.

I disagree with that. I think it's quite the opposite. You're assuming things that are quite bizarre when you look at it in the context of what's going on here in my opinon.
Things I don't think you have enough evidence to prove.

---

Onto the Kid Buu stuff now...



I don't have a problem with this section. Makes sense to me.

But as for the next parts:



I think you're making a false equivocation between "most troublesome" and strongest. The context for why Kid Buu is the most troublesome is because he's the most uncontrollable and he's pure evil. He's now "untamed."

The most troublesome in this context is also directly related to POWER. The reason Kibito Kai is so afraid is because all his restrictions have been released and he's back to his pure self. He wouldn't be so afraid if his power went down a whole bunch but was just more chaotic. Damage, every Buu is chaotic, unpredictable, and violent. Not just Kid Buu. The amount of Evil Kid Buu has is directly attributed to his power as I showed you. Kid Buu can't be at his most evil/powerful when he has others absorbed with Heart.

I don't think it has definitely been shown that absorbing South Kai was a net debuff to Buu like how absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai was. The absorptions in total would've weakened him down to below his original level, but that doesn't mean the first absorption by itself did.

No, it absolutely HAS to be the case. 'Heart' = weaker. It's literally attributed to absorbing the Kais themselves. If Heart weakens Buu, that would imply the South Supreme Kai is literally pure evil, which we know isn't the case since he's a Kai and has been shown FIGHTING evil before. That would be a very big claim to make. Kid Buu just had more added heart. The GSK being the most gentle of the bunch is what made Buu more controllable and docile. That's literally what Kibito Kai said about Buu. It makes absolutely no sense for the SSK to not be part of that added Heart. And by your own admission, absorptions would weaken him below Kid Buu level. So Super Buu absolutely has to be weaker than Kid Buu since it's still an overall power increase RELATIVE to Super Buu. Even if I granted you Grand Kai being the sole power reducer, and SSK for some reason raising Buu's power, it still has to be an overall power increase. Super Buu would be a 5, Buff buu would be a 7, and Kid Buu would be a 6. If you deny that, then that means you don't believe GSK weakened Buu which is factually incorrect based on what we are told verbatim. And mind you, even without removing SSK, the effect is still the same.

Here's how it would work. Kid Buu absorbs GSK and gets weakened. Buu goes through the split and absorbs himself. You remove Innocent Buu which has GSK and it returns to Kid Buu first instead of Buff Buu. Kid Buu still receives the power increase. That is the exact mechanic it has to go in order for it to work. And that's what were told.

I also see no reason why Goku and Vegeta would be comparing him to Buuhan specifically when they comment on his Chi rising.

I was just saying it could be. What's the reason they went inside of Buuhan? To lower his power level.
They come out to say his power level isn't lowering but actually just going UP. This very well could mean Buuhan since it would be Buu's overall strongest power going back up. I get why you wouldn't want to take this I guess? But it still changes nothing.

First they felt his Chi shrink down earlier when he returned to being Super Buu. So they already know that Buu isn't as strong as he was before. If they're commenting on Buu's power rising as Buff Buu, then it makes sense that they mean he is rising from his current level which is Super Buu's power level, not Buuhan's.

Again, that's fair, but I still believe either could be valid. But you'd still have to concede Kid Buu>Super Buu at the very least. And if you do, I have a feeling it'd dismantle your other arguments later.

Evilness is not literally a force that is the only factor in how strong an individual is in Dragon Ball.

I never said it's the only factor. But it really does act as a force in Dragon Ball. Evil can actually manifest itself. See Kami and Piccolo. See Buu and Evil Buu.
This is something just explicit that Toriyama has made clear to use. I mean evil itself can stop things like resurrection from cosmic forces.

Correlation does not imply causation; just because Merus remarks that most strong individuals tend to be evil doesn't mean that the more evil they are, the stronger they become.

That's literally how it is for Kid Buu. He was a being created to be evil incarnate. Why would he not be at his strongest when he's at his most evil and has no 'Heart' weighting him down? That's the entire plot point surrounding Buu.

Kid Buu being pure evil means that he is inherently more dangerous, more chaotic than other forms of Buu but that doesn't gurantee that he has the highest raw power.

But it does though, that's literally what is stated in universe. Pure Buu is not restricted by anything else.
He can be more evil and chaotic, but that directly correlates with his power. Straight up, this is not something that can actually be denied. Grand Supreme Kai and South Supreme Kai prove my point.

It's been shown with multiple other absorptions (Evil Buu eating Fat Buu, Buutenks, Buuhan, etc) that Buu can get stronger and stronger without becoming more evil from it. It definitely doesn't prove that if Buu has even a little bit of goodness within him that he will always be weaker than when he is pure evil.

I mean it literally just is. Buu was only able to become stronger absorbing other people with Heart when he suppressed his good side.
When the evil side became dominant, only then was he able to actually gain the power of his victims.
This is something that can only happen to Super Buu.
Why do you think Kid Buu got weaker from absorbing people with Heart? He couldn't gain the power of others because there was no split. An Evil Buu literally had to eat the innocent Buu to stop that effect from happening. So this isn't actually a defeater.
And lets not forget the fact that Evil Buu and all the other Buu's are still restricted by Heart. You can't say Evil Buu is pure evil either since he still is influenced by GSK who was part of Buu. The vest and the cape prove that. And since we know Pure Buu is the only one that's pure evil, that means no other version of Buu can be pure evil. It's impossible narratively and logically. Just flat out wrong. Buuhan and Buutenks are still Super Buu so they'd still have that heart. Just Innocent Buu with GSK being inside Buu was enough. Being dominant doesn't mean complete 100 percent suppression. And it likely can't EVER be that way.

Characters in a work don't operate on a purely powerscaling mindset that we have as readers outside of the work.

I mean but they literally are. The entire point of going inside Buu was lowering his power and freeing everyone else.
They entirely operate on how much power they need to beat the foe in basically every arc. That's why fusion, Super Saiyan 3, Potential unlocks exist.

Supreme Kai is exhibting an emotional response because he recognizes the version of Buu that he has personal experience with, that killed his friends/colleagues and rampaged across the Universe.

He also has memories of Fat Buu as well. He's terrified of all of them. But we have a direct explanation of why he's so scared of Evil Buu. It's multiple things combined into one, and we have explicit evidence on what the most major one is.

Again, being the most dangerous and troublesome isn't the same as being the most powerful.

Again, it has to be since power was directly correlated to how EVIL and Chaotic Buu is.
Put it like this. If Buu is at his most chaotic, unpredictable, and evil, then what does that also mean? That he's at his most POWERFUL. They are directly attributed to each other. Linked so to speak. That's how Majin Buu's very being works. You can't just ignore that crucial statement. And it's not like Goku or the others directly complained about his chaotic nature did they? Like even Vegeta stated Buu is just more powerful than he could have imagined. We are operating off a power based setting. Vegeta literally fought the unpredictable child like version of Majin Buu. That is not the thing they are most concerned about. It's his POWER.

I don't think that fighting chaotically would make Buu less threatening; in fact one of the first things Buu does upon achieving his Kid Buu form is to try and destroy the planet without a thought. Something that the other versions of Buu wouldn't have done on a whim and only threatened to do after fighting for an extended period of time.

I mean did Buu remember Goku and Vegeta? They basically just killed Super Buu. Do we have any reason to believe that Kid Buu was planning on continuing the fight? Actually, I think you're just wrong here. When there was nobody left, Buuhan was going to just destroy the planet instantly. Buu didn't see them so he opted to do the same. Buu didn't destroy the Kai planet instantly and actually opted to fight them. He even fell asleep waiting for them to make a move. So no actually, this is an in character thing for Buu to do. Literally all of them. Super Buu didn't destroy everything either. I will say ego was part of it, but the premise is the same no doubt.

This is where I think you're leaning too strongly into your own interpretation of the scene and treating it as fact. Goku and Vegeta don't directly bring up their shrunken size or reduced power level as the reason for why they'd be inferior to Super Buu. They don't have any reason to believe that they are now permanently as small and weak as they are in that moment.

Why not? They got shrunken by By Buu. Why would leaving his body automatically mean they go back to normal size if they were forcibly dragged into him and turned that way? And like I told you before, we know for a FACT they are weakened. Super Buu even says it. Goku and Vegeta would be sensing their own energy and comparing it to Super Buu. Unless you think they can't sense their own energy. And if they can't, why? At best, they'd only be weaker than they anticipated since Goku believed he could put a hole into Super Buu.

If that is all it was, they could've brought up the possibility of just returning to their normal selves as a way to solve the issue but they don't.

Does this not just support that they didn't have a reason to believe they would return to normal size? Goku didn't even know what would happen at all so it really isn't far fetched to say that. Since they were literally surprised when they left Buu's body that they went back to normal size as I posted.

In the full context of the scene, after Goku laments that they still are unable to beat Super Buu, he remarks that it's Vegeta's fault because he destroyed the Potara.

だから おめえが ポタラを こわしちまうから
“It’s your fault for smashing the Potara…”

This context makes it clear to me what Goku means by "If we go out like this". He means if they go out singularly as themselves. He even brings up an alternative that will save them which is combining once again but via the Fusion Dance.

Vegeta already crushed the Potara so why would he be saying "if we go out like this" as if there was another option at that point? Fusion clearly wasn't on the table anymore and Goku knew about that. There's no reason for him to be referring to their unfused selves anymore. He only brings up the fusion dance after this statement. Buu literally says the same thing. "You can't beat me the way you are now" and that's literally talking about their small size. So Buu is literally admitting SINCE they are small, that they don't have an actual chance at beating him which leans more towards my favor of Buu not really being about it if they are at full power, and backs up what I said previously about him being blatantly scared of Goku.

I don't think that Buu's power is quite so unfathomable that we can't get any useful information from the character's sensing Buu's power level. Here's a few cases:

I never said we couldn't. But it's still important since Buu wouldn't even know his own power, and the full power would be hard to get a gauge on.

1) Piccolo sensing Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu.

Yes but we directly know Piccolo couldn't sense the full extent of Buu's power since he literally thought Gotenks could win just for him to doubt it a second later. This proves my point.

2) Goku and Vegeta sensing that Buuhan's power had dropped back down to Super Buu's level.

3) Goku and Vegeta sensing that Buff Buu was gaining more Chi than he had as Super Buu.

Damage. I never said that they couldn't sense Buu's power. But it's hard to know the full EXTENT of it which is why certain statements could be unreliable for determining how weak or strong someone is. And we have a direct example of that.

So changes to Buu's Chi are indeed readable by the characters. Now, this doesn't preclude them from underestimating or overestimating their opponents, which can happen, but we can still get rough indicators.

Okay so what was the point in your earlier assessment?

Goku and Vegeta aren't complete idiots. If they felt Super Buu's Chi rising dramatically when he became Buff Buu, and then Buu continued to get even stronger after that, they're not going to suddenly forget that they felt his Chi rising when they see he became a small guy. They've got experience with Freiza. They know that a smaller opponent doesn't mean a weaker opponent.

But Goku and Vegeta LITERALLY made that mistake with Buu as I've pointed out. You're right, they aren't idiots, but they can be dumb sometimes.
They say absolutely nothing about Buu's Ki dropping in any way shape or form. Vegeta only makes mention of Buu's size and says they can take him. And what happened? A second later, they are running for their lives. This is one of the examples of them being cocky and not getting a full read on someones power looks like. Which is exactly what Toriyama stated.

What must've happened is that after they felt Buu's Chi rise as Buff Buu, they must've felt Buu's Chi fall back down when he settled into being Kid Buu.

Can you prove that? Why is there no mention of Buu's Ki dropping? Surely there must be a statement.

That's the most reasonable explanation for their confidence in being able to think they have a chance after Kid Buu.

It really isn't since they lack that confidence afterwards and Kid Buu has them run away.
They admit they can't stop the attack so clearly it was a wrong assessement.
And now that we know that, Kid Buu absolutely HAS to be stronger than Buff Buu since we lack a statement that says Kid Buu for some reason got weaker.
Where did the power go? You can only make this argument if you believe Buff Buu got stronger than Super Buu via SSK which you haven't proven.

The two of them knew they didn't have any kind of chance moments ago against Buuhan; they're not going to be thinking they can take on someone who got even stronger than Buuhan.

But Goku literally admitted he got cocky and we've seen them get cocky. But when Goku actually fought Kid Buu, after a fight he came to the conclusion as well with Vegeta that at full power he'd definitely be able to win. Did you forget who Vegeta was?

The point about them panicking over the stronger blast that Kid Buu charges up doesn't hold up as them being wrong. FIrstly, we know that Dragon Ball characters can charge up attacks to launch far stronger ones that they can dish out normally.

Prove this was any sort of special attack rather than just Buu actually revealing more of his power.
Because the way I see it, it's just Buu giving them what they wanted, a fight. And we have no indication this was Buu's full power either. Besides, we know Dragon Ball characters can hit as hard as their blast.

And secondly Goku and Vegeta didn't express worry for themselves; they were worried that they wouldn't be able to deflect the blast from destroying the Earth.

Which means they wouldn't be able to stop it..
We know what deflecting a blast would look like in this scenario. Vegeta literally does it to Kid Buu's smaller blast and it dissipates.
It clearly means they didn't believe they were powerful enough to contest it at all. You don't have to stretch this.

They wanted Kid Buu to fight them; their reaction is not "Oh no, we can't beat him", it's "Oh no, he's going to blow up the Earth without even fighting us."

But Kid Buu literally WAS fighting them. Throwing energy at them is still a form of engaging in combat. It was directed at THEM. It was a blast meant to challenge them.
The earth just got blown up regardless because Buu didn't care.

I think you raise a fine point here regarding the raws for Buutenks' statement not specifically mentioning the past, and Buuhan's statement being in relation just to his previous form. But I think your first argument is questionable because at what point is Buu ever suggested to suffer from memory issues related to his absorption or transformations?

Because Piccolo actually implies that Buu retaining SOME memories is relieving. So yeah that actually does imply he wouldn't remember everything, and especially not as far back as Kid Buu. Why would he? Any proof for that? At least Supe Buu would is what I'm saying. But other than that, we don't have anything implying he remembers his time as Kid Buu or even Buff Buu especially since they were more Chaotic.

We don't need to directly prove that Fat Buu can remember being Buff Buu or Kid Buu because we know from his later transformations that he remembers his previous experiences quite well. As Buutenks, he recalled fighting Goku back when he was Fat Buu.

Yeah like I said, he remembers some things from Fat Buu, but can you prove Kid Buu and Buff Buu? Can you prove Buu would know about the power reduction that the Kai's caused him? If not then it's largely irrelevant. And Buutenks saying he's the strongest Majin doesn't mean anything. Because to the best of his knowledge, he just is.

And Buutenks' full statement still has him describing himself as the most powerful Majin:

この瞬間こそ未来においても二度と現れぬであろう最強の魔人の誕生だ

“This very moment marks the birth of the mightiest Majin - one that will likely never appear again, even in the future.”

He's the only Majin in existence in the present, so his statement logically should be encompassing the past by default otherwise he wouldn't be comparing himself to anything.

Not really, he's literally just gloating about his strength which is in character for him to do. That absolutely doesn't mean he's for some reason including his past self pre split that he likely doesn't even know about. It's empty boasting that means nothing.

I think there's a slight misunderstanding here; they make it very clear in the manga that the problem isn't with the Spirit Bomb not being strong enough (nobody says they need more power for the Spirit Bomb once it is complete), the problem is solely with Goku not being strong enough to launch the Spirit Bomb at Kid Buu.

That isn't true at all Damage. Goku literally says the spirit bomb with all the power of his friends is simply not enough to kill Kid Buu at all. And you need to remember that Goku didn't need to force the spirit bomb onto someone like Frieza. He simply threw it and it overpowered him just like that. Kid Buu was ACTIVELY pushing it back so he needed more force to amplify it AND push it into him.

Once Goku's stamina is restored and he is able to succeed in launching the Spirit Bomb, Kid Buu is completely destroyed by it. The power of the Spirit Bomb isn't what was lacking in order to destroy Kid Buu, it was only the power required to push it at him.

Yeah because Goku now had to power to overpower Kid Buu's push and push it into him. He's directly amplifying it here with his own power. He does the same against Jiren as well. The fact that Kid Buu is able to push this thing back AND overpower it when it had energy FAR FAR HIGHER than Ultimate Gohan has to mean Buu just scales to it lol. There isn't any other way for this to be possible. It's literally a giant ball of energy.

Vegeta doesn't state that bringing Gohan and Gotenks to fight wouldn't work.

He directly says it won't work when he says No. The spirit bomb was a better option.

He just says that his plan is to use the Spirit Bomb.

Yes which I explained why that means Gotenks and Gohan aren't enough to win.

And Goku doesn't state in the raws as far as I can tell that Gohan and Gotenks would only be a help against Buu

I mean he literally does. And Goku doesn't state that they could win either. Yet he thinks himself with SS3 could win, that Vegito could win, AND the full power spirit bomb could win. So why not Gotenks and Gohan? Was is stopping Goku from pressing Vegeta telling them it's the correct choice?

(and if he believed that Kid Buu was far stronger than even Buuhan, wouldn't Goku himself have pointed out that they could offer no help whatsoever?)

He basically does do that when he dismisses the idea entirely. Goku is open to options here. It's the same as Goku going to fight Buutenks even though Goku likely knows he can't beat Buutenks, whether it's power or attrition. But what other choice is there? Just not use every resource he has to win the fight?

Again I have to point out that characters aren't purely logical combat machines that always pick the best options or strategies. They could have fused earlier if they were solely concerned with making the most optimal moves.

And I already told you that Goku was sparing Vegeta's feelings. At this point on when Vegeta realized his mistake, they would be trying the BEST options to win. Not making it harder just because.

They didn't; they preferred to fight on their own.

That isn't true dude. I already told you that Goku was fine with fusing. But he didn't since he didn't want to push that on to Vegeta. That was a lie basically. Goku is straight up not telling the truth to validate Vegeta and spare his feelings.

They could have used the wish from Porunga to simply wish for a new pair of Potara earrings since they already acknowledged that as Vegeto they could've won,

How do you even know Shenron can do that? And Damage, just because they didn't think of certain scenarios YOU could of doesn't mean they are actively making it harder for themselves off of that. They literally FORGOT they had another wish. Vegeta had to remind them of that.

but they didn't despite that being even less risky than having to charge up a Spirit Bomb for an extended period of time.

Again, them not doing that because they didn't think of it isn't them just making it harder on themselves. Anyone could do that. That's called hindsight bias. What I'm saying here is directly stated in the story. You are veering way off dude.

Also, the idea that Goku was following along with Vegeta's assumption that Goku was holding back against Kid Buu out of consideration towards Vegeta is wrong as Vegeta realizes that Goku wasn't holding back at all.

Damage. I think you are completely misunderstanding what I pointed out here. Goku was NOT holding Back against kid Buu. Vegeta realizes this. Goku not fusing from the beginnings BECAUSE he was being considerate towards Vegeta. You are talking about something totally different here. An argument I never made.

Also, from what I can tell of the raws, Goku doesn't admit that he doesn't think he can do anything against Buu; he just isn't 100% sure that he'll win and resolves to do his best.

And again, this is a Goku who witnessed Kid Buu's power early on and actually ran. So yeah, Goku would be under the overall assumption and knowledge that Kid Buu can produce power he can't stop and that he doesn't know if he can win this fight. He's being cocky and hyping himself up when he brags to Vegeta about him not potentially getting a turn even though admitting he doesn't know if he can win regardless. This makes my point stronger via later context. Goku isn't being completely genuine. It's all for Vegeta, which Vegeta reaizes.

I don't think I have anything to say on the statement of "Buuhan gaining power on level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku." From my earlier sections, I think there's enough evidence that SSJ3 Gotenks was superior to SSJ3 Goku already, which by extension would make Buuhan far stronger than him.

I said you could make whatever of that statement sure. But I disagree on your reasonings for Gotenks being stronger than Goku. And if it helps, there is also a statement on the DB website that says they are only the strongest when Goku isn't there. And it doesn't change much regardless.

Sure, SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu were stronger than Vegeta initially estimated them to be but that's all that it means. He isn't saying they're stronger than everything else that Vegeta has ever experienced.

I mean why not? The point is that Goku's power was unknown. Vegeta thinks Kid Buu's power is beyond imagination or all of his expectations thus far. He's experienced all the Buu's in action before.

Vegeta has also experienced how powerful he was as Vegeto but he isn't saying that Kid Buu and Goku are even stronger than that.

But he was talking about Buu though. We already know Potara could win, Vegeta knows this as well. So clearly it wouldn't include Vegito. Especially when gauging Buu's strength.

I'm not convinced by the hand-wavy explanation of "Saiyans can just get stronger mid-fight",

That's literally what is said though. We have seen it. They can get crazy power boost in short amounts of time.

as a way of overlooking the discrepancies between Goku's performance against Super Buu earlier (where he was inferior against most of his forms), and SSJ3 Goku being comparable to Kid Buu. Goku and Vegeta are aware of their own nature as Saiyans and yet they never bring up the possibility that they'll just grow stronger as a solution to the problem. Against Buuhan earlier they had to resort to fusion because they simply had no alternative of beating Buuhan.

Them not bringing it up isn't an argument. They've brought it up before and we know it can happen.
You keep bringing up different situations where Goku is desperate since Buu is trying to kill them right away. Unlike with kid Buu who actively lets them discuss a plan. Goku saw how much Vegeta hated fusion and decided to spare him the embarrassment of doing so. Goku regretted later on. He wanted to fuse as well. You can't just ignore a fundamental part of Saiyans.

And there is no explanation for when this convenient power-increase would happen.

Goku can grow stronger during his fight with Kid Buu, amps because he's fighting for the battle of the universe, he has experience the power of Vegito by literally BEING HIM. A similar thing happened with Super Saiyan God. Feeling that level of power increased his as well. This is not something unprecedented. And based on all the evidence I've provided, it DID just happen and it was clearly the intention.

It certainly didn't happen prior to the battle with Kid Buu as they were powerless against Buuhan. If I'm right that they felt they couldn't even taken on Super Buu after de-fusing then they didn't get a miraculous power increase following the fusion. So at some point between them getting outside of Kid Buu's body and them fighting Kid Buu in the Supreme Kai's realm, they (or at least Goku) got hundreds of times stronger without even fighting? It doesn't make sense and you'd think that if Goku or Vegeta had gotten far stronger than they did before, that they would've remarked on it at some point like "We stand far more of a chance now than before" but instead they act and perform much as the same as I'd expect them to before they fused together for the first time.

Again, no matter where it happened, it clearly did sometime after fusion and the fight with Kid Buu. This seems like a case of incredulity to where we are shown something, but because you don't really like it and the implications, you won't accept it. In my opinion, this should even be a question since we know Saiyans can just get ridiculous power jumps at basically any time he story needs them to. I gave multiple scans that stated Goku was the only one who could fight Kid Buu, that he is the strongest warrior by the end of the Buu Saga, from Toriyama. And more. Even a statement from Vegeta. This is the first time Goku has used full power. And re you forgetting that Goku could use his Super Saiyan 3 better than he could before? Becoming less exhausted during a fight he was really trying in vs a fight he barely was trying in? A clear change happened. It functions differently, and he's drawing out more power.

I think that some of those Dragon Ball Super statements are a bit misleading.

In this scan, it doesn't specify that it is Kid Buu exclusively which is the mightiest enemy of all time. The visual is of the climactic fight against Buu, but the statement mentions that Majin Buu forced all life on the planet to the brink of extinction. Kid Buu didn't do that; Super Buu did.

But it literally shows Evil Buu, and this is backed up by the narrative in Super again later.

It seems clear to me that statements of "Majin Buu being the strongest enemy Goku ever faced" is referring to Majin Buu overall, not his final form.

Can you prove that? Even Toriyama stated Majin Buu's fina form was the strongest as I showed you.

I won't be pedantic about the rest but I think that the statements take a lesser priority to displays of power throughout the manga which puts Kid Buu as more comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku, compared to him being far superior to Buuhan who is far stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku just minutes prior.

I mean Damage. Not really? We have multiple instances of Toriyama stating Kid Buu is the strongest, multiple guidebook statements, and multiple narrative implications. This debate is always going to revolve around how strong you think Goku is. And like I said, it doesn't really matter since he's directly shown and stated to be the strongest multiple times during the story and by the author.

Goku was meant to be the endgame warrior of this story and it's proven on how he's beaten Majin Buu. I think you got a lot of the lore wrong about Majin Buu and how his powers work as well. About how Evil functions, misconceptions about the Kais, Vegeta's character, assuming some wild things about Goku in terms of his confrontation with Buuicolo and Super Buu in general. But to be honest, there's nothing to be pedantic about. Are we seriously going to ignore Toriyama implicitly stating that Kid Buu is indeed the mightiest? You didn't touch up on Dende's statement as well that straight up says it, how can you even brush around something like that? In my opinion, I don't think you actually can without straight up dismissing it. I don't think there's a problem with Goku getting stronger through his experiences at the end. Even Goku in Super has moments like those where he gets absurdly strong in shorts amounts of time. Like Goku beating on Merged Zamasu after only going through Mafuba training and no real physical training or Ki control. We went over that before, but it absolutely did happen and was integral to the story. But in terms of arguments, I didn't see anything that actually debunks Kid Buu's nature, it's all mostly Goku scaling.

 

[Vietthai96]

Evilness is not literally a force that is the only factor in how strong an individual is in Dragon Ball.

Emotion does impact power level in Dragon Ball, literally people getting stronger and have better performance when in rage.

Genki (元げん気き, lit. "Vigor") is the energy/life force that is projected in ki. Genki is present in the grass and trees, people and animals, inanimate objects, the atmosphere and celestial bodies.

Yūki (勇ゆう気き, lit. "Courage") is implied to be the literal emotion of courage and the energy rush that comes from that, which would mean ki is as much an emotional concept as it is a physical energy to use in battle. Yūki also makes it possible to grant one's power to another person by cheering and encouraging them.

Shōki (正しょう気き, lit. "Right-mindedness") is implied to be one's mental state, meaning that by maintaining self-control, balance and staying true to yourself, it is possible to increase your capability in battle.

We also literally have this as description of Ki, which mental also affect Ki and combat capabilities

Anyway, OP makes more sense to me so i agree with his arguments

 

[Infinite9Luck]

But I ultimately do agree there is no proof of Kid Buu being the strongest Buu in combat PL as opposed to canon statements merely describing him as "More dangerous."

I think it is a bit unfair to claim this when all the scans about this point were kind of ignored. Just to be clear:

do you disagree with the Shonen Jump 50th Anniversary that explicitly calls the manga version of Kid Buu, the one that destroyed Earth, the strongest Majin?
Do you disagree with Toriyama not contradicting the claim that the smallest form, in this case Majin Buu, is the strongest?
Do you disagree with Toriyama saying that each side keeps transforming and getting more and more powerful until the Genkidama?
Do you disagree with Toriyama’s view that if a new version of a villain appears weaker, the reader would not be satisfied?
Do you also disagree with the official anime stating multiple times that Kid Buu is the strongest? (I know the anime is not canon to the manga, but it is still an official medium, and it supports my interpretation)

Additionally, the author in charge officially of DB Kai explicitly stated that they stayed faithful to the manga, this is not the DBZ anime, is a remake made faithful to the manga, these are people that fully understand and can read the japanese version of the manga, yet even in DB Kai, Kid Buu is stated to be the strongest. Again, the DB Kai version cut a plethora of anime-only moments and exaggerations, yet they still kept this. So do you think we can interpret the japanese manga better than them?

I am going to ask you the opposite question: what even supports, with the same amount of evidence, that Buuhan is the strongest?

Basically, every official medium says otherwise, every official Dragon Ball medium support our interpretation of the manga. It is kind of hard to ignore all of this and just say there is no proof of Kid Buu being the strongest. And it is also kind of superficial dismiss everything with 1) not canon or 2) "anime only" as if, they are not official interpretation of the source material? (Sill lot of proof strictly manga wise were presented as well in the whole OP).

Spoiler: Gotenks Stuff

Gotenks's Stuff:

Also, another small correction: Gotenks is not really that strong. Toriyama himself support that. A rusty after Buu-saga SSJ Goku, in a manga drawn by Toriyama, outclassed Super Saiyan Gotenks. This is a manga drawn by Toriyama himself.
Vegeta explicitly says in DBS that Goku was the strongest after defeating Buu, not in BOG, but after defeating Buu he was already. Toriyama’s portrayal suggests that end-of-Buu-saga Goku is the strongest, as he himself said: Goku is always the strongest.

Vegeta states Goku is the number 1, and it refers to power, the anime also clarify this by saying Goku is simply the strongest. Once again, every external medium support this interpretation.

There is so many proof... Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball Daima and again, confirmed Goku is the strongest.This is Goku right after the Buu Saga.

This is confirmed in the Daizenshuu as well. In this picture, the image is computer-made, but in the original magazine the descriptions refer to the whole character, SSJ3 included. Just because you see base Gotenks here does not mean the description refers only to him in that form; it refers to Gotenks as a whole. In fact, there is no separate description for Gotenks’ other forms, and this description clearly says that Gotenks has only surpassed Vegeta and the others.
But wait, if he were massively above Goku, then why even say “Vegeta and the others”? Vegeta is not even the main character, neither Vegeta is stronger than Goku. It is clear that nowhere is it stated that Gotenks surpassed Goku. Actually, the statement that he surpassed “Vegeta and the others” strongly implies that he did not surpass Goku whatsoever. If that was the case, it would have been stated, "he has surpassed Goku and the others"

 

[Qawsedf234]

Because this is a Dragon Ball thread, I will preemptively ask the regular users to not dog-pile or raoidly post. It clogs the thread and makes it hard for new staff members to read/follow. If a user says something you disagree with, please wait to see if someone else has addressed it, because hitting the "post reply" button unless you think it contributes to the conversation.

---

For the OP, I will be arguing as opposition, as a staff member has informed me that other staff members have accused me of blindly agreeing with Dragon Ball upgrades.

If people think I'm that intellectually dishonest, I want to show that I do read over these things in detail.

Because of that, and because people tend to stop reading to comment piecemeal, I would ask that you at least read my end statements before responding to any individual point:

Goku can be surprised and still stronger than Gohan. He did train over 7 years, and Gohan's potential increases as he trains and grows more powerful. That's a reason the ultimate form isn't stagnant; It's because Gohan's power doesn't have a cap. Not to mention what played a part in Goku's reaction was Goku being surprised that he could output this much power while not even turning Super Saiyan. Not that this level of power in general was impossible. So just keep that in mind. I'm not saying that Gohan 100 percent wasn't stronger, that it's just less concrete, but I'll get to more on that shortly.

My main issue with these is that the Buu Saga makes multiple notes about Gohan's power, especially in relation to where Vegeta and Goku are at. Dabura is called "as strong as Cell", Vegeta and Goku are called "Stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell/at his maximum" (with Vegeta only being beyond Gohan after a Majin boost, seemingly), and we currently have an accepted SS3 Multiplier of x4.

For the above logic to make sense, unless I'm missing something major, you're arguing that everyone from Majin Vegeta to Buutenks falls between the power level of SS2 Goku and SS3 Goku, as Kid Buu must be stronger than Buutenks and SS3 Goku can kill Kid Buu. This either requires nerfing the range of that power scaling chain, suggesting that SS3 is a vastly higher multiplier than what is currently accepted, Goku was holding back so much the entire time he could've likely smashed even Majin Vegeta in his base form, or that Goku got a power increase at some point.

Every point from this on relies on one of these ideas to make the Kid Buu stuff make sense. You attempt to give Goku a varies rating at the end, saying he can charge up and be much stronger, but this still falls into the issue of either base Goku being much stronger or SS3 being a generally more powerful transformation than what is currently accepted.

I'll touch on Gotenks next since people like to bring up a statement of Goku's. Goku says here to Piccolo that he promised Buu that there are two people stronger than him to come fight him in a couple days. This is not a good argument since Goku only told Buu this to get him to cease his destruction until that day arrives. Goku has no idea on how powerful the fusion will actually be. What implications are there to back up such a claim when it isn't directly stated? And mind you, only Super Gotenks Pre-RoSAT training is capable of beating Fat Buu and not Base Gotenks who literally got beat up. Here, Goku doesn't even say that someone stronger than himself will actually appear. Buu just asked "Are they strong?" and then it was left at that. Goku only promised that they would show up in a few days time and defeat them. Nothing about them being stronger. So kind of a weird writing issue here since I didn't detect anything different in the translations. However, it's the same either way since Goku said this and/or would say this to pique Buu's interest and have them stop the destruction, which was later admitted he was a fool for expecting Buu to stop regardless. Right here, Goku is only impressed that Gotenks was able to learn SS3 in such a short time even when it took Goku years to learn it. That makes sense with the narrative since they just seem to be extremely talented. Being the youngest Super Saiyans and all and mastering fusion in a very short time. It's only natural with S-Cells and stuff like that coming into play.

So like I said above, I understand all of these point. You're not suggesting that Gotenks is an equal combatant to Goku in power, which is fine. But then we still have this issue with the current chain. But what you're suggesting is one of the following:

• SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan ~ SS3 Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Super Buu > SS1 Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Post-Rosat Gotenks > SS1 Pre-RoSaT Gotenks ~ Fat Buu > Majin Vegeta ~ SS2 Goku
• SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan ~ SS3 Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Super Buu > SS1 Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Fat Buu > Majin Vegeta ~ SS2 Goku

Either way, we run into this issue again. You're either arguing that the cast from Buuhan to Majin Vegeta fall under the SS3 transformation power increase or that Goku was colossally stronger than Vegeta for this scaling chain to work.

It's a possible interpretation but what makes it stronger is Goku's other dialogue. Gohan isn't even worried about his dad who is supposedly supposed to be way weaker than himself and Super Buu yet he doesn't go up there to help him at all.

Why would Gohan be worried? Buu at this point, is massively weaker than Gohan and Dende is still around. Goku would not be under threat due to how much stronger Gohan is in this context.

If Buu was way stronger, why not attack GOKU and absorb him faster than he'd react? Buu's purpose was to KILL Goku to stop fusion. Why not continue what he was doing? Buu can easily blow himself up at any time to catch Gohan off guard like he did before, or just blow up the earth. Why stop? Well the answer is because Buu knows Goku is stronger and has Super Saiyan 3 which he's shown the capability to transform instantly and mess up Buu if he starts shit.

This is working from the wrong point, as you're under the assumption that Goku is strong, so why didn't Buu absorb him? The issue is, if Goku is much weaker than Gohan, then there's no point in even trying to absorb him, as Gohan would still obliterate Super Buu in a fight. Fighting, killing, or absorbing Goku would accomplish nothing in this circumstance under the current scaling assumption, as Goku's power is irrelevant to compared to Ultimate Gohan's.

To use an easier example, Super Buu could also absorb Tien in this fight and in his fight against Vegito, but would absorbing TIen actually do anything to change the power dynamic in any of these fights? The issue with Buu not absorbing Goku is that Gohan would still kill him, so there's no point in absorbing Goku.

Finally the suicide explosion takes to long. Super Buu was twitching menacingly and staring at Gohan, who then still had time to save everyone after figuring it out. Super Buu blowing himself up doesn't do much when Gohan can just grab everyone and fly away.

• There was nothing stopping Buu from attacking Goku.

Gohan would kill him, even if was able to kill Goku in the semi-second it took Gohan to get there

• There was no reason for Buu to be sweating in front of Goku at first unless he though absorbing Gohan was the BEST chance instead of a confrontation with Goku himself head on.

He's sweating because he now has no chance to win unless he absorbs Gohan. If he gets Goku, Gohan kills him anyways. The solution is to take out the biggest threat, not a weaker threat.

• There was no reason for Gohan to be so laid back about Goku up there with a mass psychotic murder who's stronger than his father and could kill or absorb him in an instant which is a technique Gohan KNOWS he has and so does Goku

Gohan was very chill in this arc. He didn't react notably when he found all of his friends and family were killed because Dende was still alive and he steeled himself quicly after Gotenks was absorbed. As long as Dende is alive from Gohan's PoV, his only job is to kill Super Buu.

This is also supported by the fact that when Fat Buu was removed (Who contains Grand Supreme Kai) Buu's power started to go UP and not fall immediately. It was pointed out to me recently that this could actually mean BUUHAN instead of Super Buu. The entire point of going inside of Buu was lowering his power from his most powered up form which was Buuhan at the time.

They had already decoupled Gohan and Buu had transformed into his mitt hand form. In fact Goku even comments that they've sensed a massive power drop from doing this. When they commented on Buu's power increasing, it was in relation to Super Buu which is why Goku was confused about his power going up and not down.

For Agreements:

I've tried really hard to argue against the spirit bomb and Kid Buu stuff while still being in good faith, and I ultimately can't really do it. Like with what @Infinite9Luck posted, the following just shows clear narrative intent behind Kid Buu and SS3 Goku in my mind:

Spoiler

I think it is a bit unfair to claim this when all the scans about this point were kind of ignored. Just to be clear:

do you disagree with the Shonen Jump 50th Anniversary that explicitly calls the manga version of Kid Buu, the one that destroyed Earth, the strongest Majin?
Do you disagree with Toriyama not contradicting the claim that the smallest form, in this case Majin Buu, is the strongest?
Do you disagree with Toriyama saying that each side keeps getting more and more powerful until the Genkidama?
Do you disagree with Toriyama’s view that if a new version of a villain appears weaker, the reader would not be satisfied?
Do you also disagree with the official anime stating multiple times that Kid Buu is the strongest? (I know the anime is not canon to the manga, but it is still an official medium, and it supports my interpretation)

Additionally, the author in charge officially of DB Kai explicitly stated that they stayed faithful to the manga, this is not the DBZ anime, is a remake made faithful to the manga, these are people that fully understand and can read the japanese version of the manga, yet even in DB Kai, Kid Buu is stated to be the strongest. Again, the DB Kai version cut a plethora of anime-only moments and exaggerations, yet they still kept this. So do you think we can interpret the japanese manga better than them?

I am going to ask you the opposite question: what even supports, with the same amount of evidence, that Buuhan is the strongest?

Basically, every official medium says otherwise, every official Dragon Ball medium support our interpretation of the manga. It is kind of hard to ignore all of this and just say there is no proof of Kid Buu being the strongest. And it is also kind of superficial dismiss everything with 1) not canon or 2) "anime only" as if, they are not official interpretation of the source material? (Sill lot of proof strictly manga wise were presented as well in the whole OP).

Spoiler: Gotenks Stuff

Gotenks's Stuff:

Also, another small correction: Gotenks is not really that strong. Toriyama himself support that. A rusty after Buu-saga SSJ Goku, in a manga drawn by Toriyama, outclassed Super Saiyan Gotenks. This is a manga drawn by Toriyama himself.
Vegeta explicitly says in DBS that Goku was the strongest after defeating Buu, not in BOG, but after defeating Buu he was already. Toriyama’s portrayal suggests that end-of-Buu-saga Goku is the strongest, as he himself said: Goku is always the strongest.

Vegeta states Goku is the number 1, and it refers to power, the anime also clarify this by saying Goku is simply the strongest. Once again, every external medium support this interpretation.

This is confirmed in the Daizenshuu as well. In this picture, the image is computer-made, but in the original magazine the descriptions refer to the whole character, SSJ3 included. Just because you see base Gotenks here does not mean the description refers only to him in that form; it refers to Gotenks as a whole. In fact, there is no separate description for Gotenks’ other forms, and this description clearly says that Gotenks has only surpassed Vegeta and the others.
But wait, if he were massively above Goku, then why even say “Vegeta and the others”? Vegeta is not even the main character, neither Vegeta is stronger than Goku. It is clear that nowhere is it stated that Gotenks surpassed Goku. Actually, the statement that he surpassed “Vegeta and the others” strongly implies that he did not surpass Goku whatsoever. If that was the case, it would have been stated, "he has surpassed Goku and the others"

In my view, everything said about Ki Buu, in his relation to evil and the guidebooks make sense of him as intended to be the strongest. This is further pushed in the DBZ Anime, which makes it clear that Kid Buu is stronger than his previous state (this was not brought up by the OP, but it is worth considering as a general narrative). The Spirit Bomb stuff and the general guidebooks backing this all make sense to me as well, even if that raises concerns with the scaling chains.

---

Overall there are a lot of guidebook statements and narrative implications that Kid Buu is the strongest Majin. I think ignoring that is wrong, but I also don't see the scaling as being very good either.

So I agree that it's probably supposed to be Kid Buu > the rest, or at the very least Kid Buu > Buff Buu > Super Buu, which is virtually the same thing.

For scaling, the only thing that makes sense to me is that we have to rewrite the justification for the various SS3 keys we have to something like:

Varies, up to far higher with Super Saiyan 3 (Super Saiyan 3 brings out the user's potential and allows the user to store a greater amount of Ki. While this can be average as a four times boost over Super Saiyan 2, the form can allow the user to much stronger)

This would result in basically one of the following scenarios:

• The Buuhan Agenda:
  • SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > Maxed SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Gohan > Default Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta
• The Pure Kid Buu Agenda:
  • SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Maxed SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks> Gohan > Default Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta

 

[TiltedFN]

My main issue with these is that the Buu Saga makes multiple notes about Gohan's power, especially in relation to where Vegeta and Goku are at. Dabura is called "as strong as Cell", Vegeta and Goku are called "Stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell/at his maximum" (with Vegeta only being beyond Gohan after a Majin boost, seemingly), and we currently have an accepted SS3 Multiplier of x4.

For the above logic to make sense, unless I'm missing something major, you're arguing that everyone from Majin Vegeta to Buutenks falls between the power level of SS2 Goku and SS3 Goku, as Kid Buu must be stronger than Buutenks and SS3 Goku can kill Kid Buu. This either requires nerfing the range of that power scaling chain, suggesting that SS3 is a vastly higher multiplier than what is currently accepted, Goku was holding back so much the entire time he could've likely smashed even Majin Vegeta in his base form, or that Goku got a power increase at some point.

Every point from this on relies on one of these ideas to make the Kid Buu stuff make sense. You attempt to give Goku a varies rating at the end, saying he can charge up and be much stronger, but this still falls into the issue of either base Goku being much stronger or SS3 being a generally more powerful transformation than what is currently accepted.

And I would definitely say that Super Saiyan 3 can just be a much stronger transformation the more power Goku puts in to it. It already draws out his hidden potential. He can then power up beyond that to a max charge to obliterate opponents instantly. And we know Goku until the end didn't go all out, not once since he never really had the chance to, or just chose not to like during the Fat Buu section.

So like I said above, I understand all of these point. You're not suggesting that Gotenks is an equal combatant to Goku in power, which is fine. But then we still have this issue with the current chain. But what you're suggesting is one of the following:

• SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan ~ SS3 Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Super Buu > SS1 Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Post-Rosat Gotenks > SS1 Pre-RoSaT Gotenks ~ Fat Buu > Majin Vegeta ~ SS2 Goku
• SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan ~ SS3 Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Super Buu > SS1 Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Fat Buu > Majin Vegeta ~ SS2 Goku

Either way, we run into this issue again. You're either arguing that the cast from Buuhan to Majin Vegeta fall under the SS3 transformation power increase or that Goku was colossally stronger than Vegeta for this scaling chain to work.

In Super Saiyan 3, Goku would be much stronger yes. Especially since Gotenks in base would be inferior to a holding back Goku pre-rosat. So yeah Goku's SS3 just kinda has to be more powerful than we realized at first.
And obviously Goku getting stronger near the end of the Saga. So the scaling chain wouldn't look like this right away if that's what you mean.

Why would Gohan be worried? Buu at this point, is massively weaker than Gohan and Dende is still around. Goku would not be under threat due to how much stronger Gohan is in this context.

I mean, I don't think Gohan would want Buu potentially killing his dad if he was much weaker. Especially with Goku like right next to him, and powered down in base at one point.

This is working from the wrong point, as you're under the assumption that Goku is strong, so why didn't Buu absorb him? The issue is, if Goku is much weaker than Gohan, then there's no point in even trying to absorb him, as Gohan would still obliterate Super Buu in a fight.

I didn't argue Buu would try to absorb Goku. I argued he set out to kill him to stop a potential fusion, that was his goal. He was going to kill everyone anyways so why stop when Goku is right in front of him? Especially since imo, my point still stands about Goku not taking the chance for Buu to kill him or get injured for no reason, and the fact Buu can blow himself up.

Fighting, killing, or absorbing Goku would accomplish nothing in this circumstance under the current scaling assumption, as Goku's power is irrelevant to compared to Ultimate Gohan's.

I mean it'd get rid of a potential threat, why wouldn't he? I wouldn't say irrelevant tbf.

To use an easier example, Super Buu could also absorb Tien in this fight and in his fight against Vegito, but would absorbing TIen actually do anything to change the power dynamic in any of these fights?

Tien is someone who is actually irrelevant here. It'd do nothing for him and would be a waste of time. Killing and absorbing isn't the same thing either. I never argued he'd absorb Goku. He'd never get the chance to do that most likely. But he literally stopped dead in his tracks at the sight of Goku while he made up his mind on what to do. He straight up would not approach no matter what. And that was before he definitely realized Gohan was off guard.

The issue with Buu not absorbing Goku is that Gohan would still kill him, so there's no point in absorbing Goku.

Finally the suicide explosion takes to long. Super Buu was twitching menacingly and staring at Gohan, who then still had time to save everyone after figuring it out. Super Buu blowing himself up doesn't do much when Gohan can just grab everyone and fly away.

I mean Buu can kind of start the trigger pretty fast. And Buu knows it was something Gohan was afraid of and wouldn't approach lightly. With Piccolo's intellect, I can definitely see Buu deciding to do something like that again knowing that he wouldn't be pursued since it's too risky. I definitely can't see Goku taking the chance if Gohan didn't. And blowing himself up was to buy time. And they couldn't even sense him in that time either. He can easily get the drop on them again if he so chose to.

Gohan would kill him, even if was able to kill Goku in the semi-second it took Gohan to get there

Yeah but he'd still have a better chance than a 2v1 would he not? And I disagree about Gohan killing him there after Goku. I still think Buu blowing himself up is a viable option. And to be honest, this is all predicated on the assumption that Super Buu is just straight up way stronger than Goku. Something I think isn't really supported here.

Gohan was very chill in this arc. He didn't react notably when he found all of his friends and family were killed because Dende was still alive

He actually gets pretty angry there. He only calms down when he finds out there is a chance to bring him back because of Dende being alive.

and he steeled himself quicly after Gotenks was absorbed. As long as Dende is alive from Gohan's PoV, his only job is to kill Super Buu.

Yeah exactly so there's no reason to not really be chill in this scenario since all he has to do is win right? That isn't the same as actively letting his father get killed because he won't do anything. Just because they can bring back people with the DB's doesn't mean Gohan would just be okay with that.

They had already decoupled Gohan and Buu had transformed into his mitt hand form. In fact Goku even comments that they've sensed a massive power drop from doing this. When they commented on Buu's power increasing, it was in relation to Super Buu which is why Goku was confused about his power going up and not down.

Yeah I already said it's fair if you don't take it to be Buuhan, doesn't really matter either way. It was more so a possible interpretation.

snip

Makes sense to me.

• The Buuhan Agenda:
  • SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > Maxed SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Gohan > Default Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta
• The Pure Kid Buu Agenda:
  • SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Maxed SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks> Gohan > Default Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta

Obviously I agree with the Kid Buu agenda. So yeah a varies rating would be fine on Goku's profile. And staff can decide whether they agree with my arguments for Goku being above Super Buu or not at that time. Like we already agree on, it doesn't change much whether he is or isn't stronger right there since he will be later.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

In my view, everything said about Ki Buu, in his relation to evil and the guidebooks make sense of him as intended to be the strongest. This is further pushed in the DBZ Anime, which makes it clear that Kid Buu is stronger than his previous state (this was not brought up by the OP, but it is worth considering as a general narrative). The Spirit Bomb stuff and the general guidebooks backing this all make sense to me as well, even if that raises concerns with the scaling chains.

Yes, I fully agree. The anime and DB Kai get dismissed too easily without any proper arguments, simply because they contradict people’s opinions.
In Japan anime are treated with high regards. However, Toriyama is a very straightforward person, and throughout all of DBZ, the final and last villain has always been the strongest. And in every interviews he keeps saying it.

I'll simply answer with what Toriyama's himself write; it is for fun, but it is to help to understand how Toriyama thinks, beside all the stuff written here:

About the Anime:

About Kid Buu:

• The Pure Kid Buu Agenda:
  • SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Maxed SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks> Gohan > Default Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta

Agree with this. But I would not mind to just put Kid Buu > Goku directly as well.

Something like:

• SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks> < Maxed SSJ3 Goku (can be higher or lower) > Gohan > Default Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta

 

[StrymULTRA]

Goku also got a power up from training with it; still a stretch to even compare him to Final Gohan even with SSJ3, but there is indeed no full way to compare how much he grew compared to Gotenks.

Yeah because Gohan has nowhere the same statements Goku has in being the strongest, are we just going to ignore this? Where are the official statements of Gohan/Gotenks > Goku?

I'd like to also list more evidence on why FP SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan.

• Multiple sources stating that Goku is the strongest in the universe, such as Toriyama himself, the Super Exciting Guide, Daima, the name of the corresponding DBZ Episode, Daizenshuu and the screenwriter of BoG, who claimed that they made Super Saiyan God as the thing to surpass SSJ3 in the story, implying Ult. Gohan wasn't superior.
• Gohan was lowkey a non-factor against Kid Buu from multiple statements from Goku, Vegeta and the Daizenshuu that if Goku and Vegeta failed to stop Kid Buu, then none else would've been able to.
• And the whole Genkidama thing OP has mentioned.

 

[KingTempest]

I've read everything. Honestly, put me with Damage and DDM

Also I had to respond to this

• Gohan was lowkey a non-factor against Kid Buu from multiple statements from Goku, Vegeta and the Daizenshuu that if Goku and Vegeta failed to stop Kid Buu, then none else would've been able to.

This is because Gohan was ALREADY DEAD.

 

[KingTempest]

Also, stop bringing up the damn anime. We have anime profiles for a reason. Stop milking anime guides and statements for manga scaling or else we can nuke the anime profiles and just merge em if they're so "similar"

 

[StrymULTRA]

I've read everything. Honestly, put me with Damage and DDM

Also I had to respond to this

This is because Gohan was ALREADY DEAD.

If that's the case why didn't Goku just go to grab Gohan while Vegeta was fighting Kid Buu after his resurrection?

Plus, ducking the fact that Goku is the one getting the statements of being the strongest while Gohan never got these.

 

[Huesito88]

Plus, ducking the fact that Goku is the one getting the statements of being the syringes while Gohan never got these.

What?

 

[KingTempest]

If that's the case why didn't Goku just go to grab Gohan while Vegeta was fighting Kid Buu after his resurrection?

This is because Gohan was ALREADY DEAD.

Are you good?

 

[Damage3245]

If that's the case why didn't Goku just go to grab Gohan while Vegeta was fighting Kid Buu after his resurrection?

Plus, ducking the fact that Goku is the one getting the statements of being the strongest while Gohan never got these.

Goku was a little busy gathering energy for the Spirit Bomb. He also needs to lock onto somebody's Chi on Earth to teleport there and Gohan had already given his energy towards the Spirit Bomb.

 

[KingTempest]

Oh you mean that

 

[KingTempest]

You know what? No.
We've actually been milking the validity of these second hand canon statements to where we have lost the plot of the manga.

Here is every showing of scaling throughout the entire manga for all forms of Buu.

Spoiler: Buu Scaling

Innocent Buu​

1. In General
   1. Was the form he took after absorbing the Supreme Kai.
2. Majin Vegeta
   1. Off bat he bodies Dabura with no issue, scaling him well above SSJ2 Gohan and surprising even SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta.
   2. They all know Majin Vegeta is dying.
   3. Majin Vegeta can hurt Innocent Buu, although Buu is a play dough bum, but he says it hurts a "little bit".
   4. Buu whoops his ass.
   5. Vegeta blows up.
3. Goku
   1. (SSJ2) Goku wasn't even there but he knows Buu's stronger than him.
   2. Goku's being humble. He's not a valid measurement by any means.
      1. Piccolo thinks Goku could've beaten him. Goku's not sure.
         1. Later Goku changes his mind to flex.
   3. (SSJ3) They fight. They're relatively evenly matched. Buu's body is different.
4. Gotenks
   1. Goku predicts that his power is superior to his own and that they'd give Buu a good fight.
   2. (V1 Base) Buu whooped his ass.
5. Ultimate Gohan
   1. Gohan's latent potential may surpasses Innocent Buu's.

Super Buu​

1. Base​

   1. Innocent Buu
      1. Implied to be stronger than before.
         1. Nvm. He's stated to be stronger than before.
   2. Gotenks
      1. (V2 Base) By Trunks's estimate, they're even with Super Buu in base/Super Saiyan.
         1. (V2 Base) Piccolo sees their base and thinks they're capable of beating Super Buu.
            1. These mfs cannot measure power.
      2. (V2 SSJ) Strong enough to fight him yet mildly weaker than Super Buu, blows his body up with Kamikaze Ghost, then gets hurt when he's low on power.
      3. (V2 SSJ3) Buu gets his ass beat. He fights back but he gets hurt bad.
      4. (V2 SSJ3) SSJ3 Gotenks is blatantly called Super Buu's equal.
         1. They say Buu has never fought anyone as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks, after he fights SSJ3 Goku.
            1. You cannot say "this is only who Super Buu has fought".
               1. They're the same person.
               2. He fought no one else except Chichi.
               3. He remembers Gotenks from when he was Innocent Buu.
                  1. He also remembered Gohan. He'd remember Goku.
                     1. He remembered Goku.
      5. (V2 SSJ3) Goku sees the fight and notes that Gotenks is probably gonna beat him.
   3. Ultimate Gohan
      1. Gohan whoops his ass.
      2. He acknowledges that Gohan is stronger than him and hints that he's the first thing he's ever sensed that was clearly stronger than him.
      3. Everyone notes that Gohan is relative or superior to SSJ3 Gotenks.

2. Buutenks​

   1. Prior
      1. Is the stongest majin of all, past present and future (that he knows).
   2. Ultimate Gohan
      1. He whoops Ultimate Gohan's ass, and he showcases his superiority.
   3. Goku
      1. He's stronger than Goku and Gohan.
      2. Goku can't even scratch his skin.
      3. (SSJ3) Goku is of no use.

3. Buuhan​

   1. Prior
      1. Stronger than before.
         1. Again.
   2. Goku and Vegeta
      1. Fusing is the only way they have a chance, nothing else.
   3. Vegito
      1. Zero scaling to him. Vegito bodies.

4. Base After Extraction​

   1. Goku and Vegeta
      1. He's still stronger than both of them in base.
      2. They can't beat him.

5. Buff​

   1. Got stronger.
      1. Akin to taking steroids due to his size, but possibly due to strength too.
   2. Was the form he took after absorbing the South Kai.

Kid Buu​

1. Prior.
   1. Theorized to be weaker after the extraction of Good Buu.
   2. They thought that they could defeat him now, even though his buff form prior had them panicking.
   3. Noted to be the most difficult, yet he shed the forms that amplified his power.
2. Goku
   1. (SSJ3) They're neck and neck, with Goku repeatedly destroying his body, but Goku with his max chi should be able to obliterate him.
3. Vegeta
   1. (SSJ2) Vegeta gets bodied.
4. Good Buu
   1. Gets bodied.
5. Gohan and Gotenks
   1. Goku is confident in the strength of Gotenks and Gohan against Kid Buu.

Goku repeatedly concedes inferiority to Buu. Stop trying to scale him to the stronger states.
Goku admits inferiority to base Super Buu who SSJ3 Gotenks and Gohan wipes.
Goku who was weaker than Super Buu fought against Innocent and Kid Buu as near equals.

Kid Buu is wanked to the heavens off of inconsistent guides based on how the author feels.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that KT has summarized the forms of Buu well enough and his breakdown of it makes sense to me. The manga and the feats within it will always take highest priority here over whatever statements can be unearthed from magazine entries or author interviews or anime adaptations. That's pretty much my view on the topic.

 

[TiltedFN]

Are you good?

Gohan literally got revived, along with everyone else. I already explained. If Gohan and Gotenks were truly the better option, either Goku would of went over there to get them, Vegeta would have told Supreme Kai to do it, or Goku would have insisted they were the easier option instead of the Spirit Bomb. But that isn't the case.
Vegeta genuinely just said no when Goku asked if that was his plan. If Goku truly thought it was the best option, why would him or Vegeta make it harder than it had to be especially when I explained why it makes no sense at that point for Vegeta to suggest something else. Did you read the thread? You need to address these arguments. Because so far, you haven't. And it's true. In terms of being helpful in combat ability and power, Gohan really was a non factor overall. He was treated as a method less effective than the Super Spirit bomb. Seeing as how it had his energy + multiplied far beyond that, it's consistent.

Your ranking of the Buu forms is literally barebones compared to what I wrote out. I even addressed Goku's statements about Super Buu when he was inside of his body just being invalid. Did I not touch on how Goku's Super Saiyan 3 power varies? How he can make it was stronger the more he charges his Ki? He NEVER went all out against Fat Buu, so we didn't know the true extent of his power just like Vegeta mentioned. I'm guessing you ignored my comment about those two right? Because if you did read it, you'd know that Kid Buu being weaker than Super Buu is quite literally impossible under the mechanics of how Evil works and affects Buu. With all that being said, are you going to address the statements from the literal author saying Kid Buu is the strongest?

This is just another classic case of 'Toriyama is wrong and I'm right'.

 

[Damage3245]

Gohan literally got revived, along with everyone else. I already explained. If Gohan and Gotenks were truly the better option, either Goku would of went over there to get them, Vegeta would have told Supreme Kai to do it, or Goku would have insisted they were the easier option instead of the Spirit Bomb. But that isn't the case.
Vegeta genuinely just say no when Goku ask if that was his plan. if Goku truly thought it was the best option, why would him or Vegeta make it harder than it had to be especially when I explained why it makes no sense at that point for Vegeta to suggest something else. Did you read the thread? You need to address these arguments. Because so far, you haven't. And it's true. In terms of being helpful in combat ability and power, Gohan really was a non factor overall. He was treated as a method less effective than the Super Spirit bomb. Seeing as how it had his energy + multiplied for beyond that, it's consistent.

Vegeta saying "No" is not the same thing as "No, that would never work."

Vegeta's reasoning is that the people of Earth should play a role in destroying Buu. Vegeta repeats the point to Goku saying "Let the Earthlings save themselves for once."

Now, could we say that this is illogical? That it's dumb? Sure; we could. As I said and as I believe for most fiction, the character's are emotionless logic machines. They don't always fight and act in the most efficient or most logical manner. They had opportunities to do that already in this very fight and they intentionally don't. Hell, Vegeta was even given the opportunity to contact the wider Universe for assistance in the Spirit Bomb and opted not to.

 

[TiltedFN]

Vegeta saying "No" is not the same thing as "No, that would never work."

Yes it is. And Goku doesn't press him further insisting that Gohan and Gotenks would be the better option at all.
He even denies the spirit bomb working by just using a little bit of energy at first before Vegeta says they will use ALL of they can collect.
And Kid Buu still pushes it back. That directly proves Gohan + Gotenks are inferior to Buu. Why would Goku choose the harder option? Why doesn't Goku just outright state they can WIN when he thinks his FP self and fusion can absolutely win? Why is it when it comes to Gohan and Gotenks, they are just a non factor?

Vegeta's reasoning is that the people of Earth should play a role in destroying Buu.

I already explained to you that this doesn't debunk the notion of them not being enough. Vegeta has no reason to make this harder on Goku than it already when he's the one who put them in this situation in the first place. Explain why neither Goku or Vegeta actually opted for Gohan over the spirit bomb.

Vegeta repeats the point to Goku saying "Let the Earthlings save themselves for once."

Yes, in the only actual option they had left.

Now, could we say that this is illogical? That it's dumb? Sure; we could.

Based on what?

As I said and as I believe for most fiction, the character's are emotionless logic machines. They don't always fight and act in the most efficient or most logical manner.

I never said they did, but we don't have any reason to think they aren't being logical here. They are at their most desperate hour, hanging onto literal strings. The only one keeping them at bay was Innocent Buu. "Oh yeah Vegeta, we COULD go get Gohan and Gotenks to fight for us, but lets make it infinitely harder by gathering energy for the spirit bomb to beat Buu". I have no reason to believe they wouldn't consider their BEST option when Vegeta is trying to make up for his mistakes and Goku wouldn't want to make it harder at this point in sparing Vegeta's feelings. Goku already knew Vegeta caught on and was willing to risk his life to buy him ime.

They had opportunities to do that already in this very fight and they intentionally don't.

Opportunities to do what? Are you on about that fusion thing? If so, I explained to you why that doesn't make any sense with the Potara earrings. They literally forgot they had a third wish btw. Only Vegeta remembered and they were already in the middle of an attack.

There is literally no way for you to justify Gohan and Gotenks just being deemed useless here in replaced of another better option by the characters own admission. And it's literally proven by the Spirit Bomb. Buu would have mopped all of them at the same time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What?

Phone's crashed here and I couldn't correct it lol.

 

[Stefano4444]

the problem is solely with Goku not being strong enough to launch the Spirit Bomb at Kid Buu.

The other times the Spirit Bomb was used in canon (against Vegeta and Frieza), it was shown to be able to easily overpower the opponent without the latters be able to do anything, despite the fact that in both instances the user (Goku and Krillin) was tired and weakened due to previous injuries.

Especially Goku was in both cases he excessively used the Kaioken putting his body to its limit, and he overall took a far more brutal beatdown compare to the later arc, which indicate that user don't need to be at this 100% health for the Spirit Bomb to work, it only to be powerful enough.

While Goku being weakened was a factor that affected the effectiveness of the attack, Kid Buu—unlike everyone before—was actually able to physically match that Spirit Bomb, and without Goku’s additional push, he would have been able to deflect it by himself.

The only other time it happen in the story was later in the Tournament of Power where Jiren could easily overpower a Spirit Bomb made up by all the combine power of Universe 7 Team.

 

[Sus]

KT makes the most sense
while the amount of statements cant be ignored, the actual manga takes priority

i could see a post buu saga goku key tho

 

[TiltedFN]

KT makes the most sense
while the amount of statements cant be ignored, the actual manga takes priority

The manga that Akira Toriyama wrote? The same man who stated on like 3 separate occasions that Kid Buu was the strongest and we have an in universe reason as to why as well? So what? Toriyama is wrong about what he wrote? You say the amount of statements can't be ignored, and then you go on to ignore them. Tell me how that works.