The Most Troublesome Buu: Buu scaling revision

[TiltedFN]

Super Buu​

1. Base​

   1. Innocent Buu
      1. Implied to be stronger than before.
         1. Nvm. He's stated to be stronger than before.
   2. Gotenks
      1. (V2 Base) By Trunks's estimate, they're even with Super Buu in base/Super Saiyan.
         1. (V2 Base) Piccolo sees their base and thinks they're capable of beating Super Buu.
            1. These mfs cannot measure power.
      2. (V2 SSJ) Strong enough to fight him yet mildly weaker than Super Buu, blows his body up with Kamikaze Ghost, then gets hurt when he's low on power.
      3. (V2 SSJ3) Buu gets his ass beat. He fights back but he gets hurt bad.
      4. (V2 SSJ3) SSJ3 Gotenks is blatantly called Super Buu's equal.
         1. They say Buu has never fought anyone as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks, after he fights SSJ3 Goku.
            1. You cannot say "this is only who Super Buu has fought".
               1. They're the same person.
               2. He fought no one else except Chichi.
               3. He remembers Gotenks from when he was Innocent Buu.
                  1. He also remembered Gohan. He'd remember Goku.
                     1. He remembered Goku.

Guess I'll reply to some of this as well. Are you forgetting that Fat Buu couldn't sense Ki, Tempest? Only Super Buu gained that ability. Why the hell would this statement matter if Fat Buu straight up wasn't capable of of gauging Goku's strength? Even if he was, we know Goku was massively holding back here, so now what. So it wouldn't be something accurate regardless. Not to mention, this is only Piccolo saying these words and not Super Buu. Even if Super Buu was the one saying this and making a comparison to Goku for some reason, the only comparison would be to how much power Goku was outputting.

• Base After Extraction​

  1. Goku and Vegeta
     1. He's still stronger than both of them in base.
     2. They can't beat him.

Already addressed this as well btw. They would be sensing their weakened Ki in here. Even Super Buu admits that they can NOT beat him because of their size. Just straight up. Goku even thought he'd be able to blow a huge hole in Buu's body despite being tiny and weakened. Not to mention in regular Super Saiyan as well. And because of Buu's words, that means Goku WOULD be able to do some heavy damage to Super Buu while not even in his strongest form.

Like I said before, Goku also has no reason to think he'd go back to regular size after exiting Buu's body. He doesn't know the mechanics of it or how it works. He was literally surprised when he went back to his normal.

Kid Buu​

1. Prior.
   1. Theorized to be weaker after the extraction of Good Buu.
   2. They thought that they could defeat him now, even though his buff form prior had them panicking.
   3. Noted to be the most difficult, yet he shed the forms that amplified his power.

He's literally stronger without the absorptions because he doesn't have any more Heart. That was the entire reason his Ki increased and how him being the most troublesome Buu is directly attributed with his Evil which equals power. He is directly stated to be the most powerful Buu right there on panel. He did not get weaker. Using Goku and Vegeta's reactions is also wrong since Buu's power is always pretty hard to sense. Buu was also clearly holding back since regular Vegeta was able to knock away one of his Ki blast. But when Buu shows his true power, Goku and Vegeta legit run away. They were wrong. Vegeta later on admits Buu's power was beyond his imagination. How much more do you need again? Goku and Vegeta thought they could take Buu because of his SIZE alone. They got cocky and overconfident along with Buu holding back. That confidence was gone mere panels later.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Innocent Buu​

1. Goku
   1. (SSJ2) Goku wasn't even there but he knows Buu's stronger than him.
   2. Goku's being humble. He's not a valid measurement by any means.
      1. Piccolo thinks Goku could've beaten him. Goku's not sure.
         1. Later Goku changes his mind to flex.

I'll start by saying that I think you have been mislead by ViZ translation. And I I think you have not fully read the OP so I'll point out the issues again.

Goku did not change his mind just to “flex”; that is factually incorrect. He deliberately lied because he wanted the younger generation to start taking on his responsibilities.

SSJ3 Goku was strong enough not only to defeat Innocent Buu, but to kill him. This is also supported by the Kid Buu fight. Goku’s performance there shows that he was able to handle an opponent stronger than Super Buu on his own.

This is not really up for debate: Kid Buu is repeatedly stated and portrayed as being above Buff Buu and Super Buu. The manga explicitly states that he becomes stronger after the good souls influencing his power are removed. This is confirmed by Japanese speaker as well.

はい。。。吸収によってパワーを減らしてまでの手に入れた心が。。。またもとにもどってしまった。。。

“Yes… he acquired a heart through absorption(s), reducing his power… it has returned to its original state…”

This is also reinforced in a manga guidebook, which presents him as a powered-up version of Buu that Goku fights after laying out the full sequence of events in chronological order.
Even the Dragon Ball 50th Anniversary Shonen Jump issue states outright that he is the strongest Majin.

And Goku fought him.

Buutenks​

1. Prior
   1. Is the stongest majin of all, past present and future (that he knows).

No, he isn't, the actual japanese doesn't mention past whatsoever, it says この瞬間こそ未来において = “This moment, and also in the future”, doesn't mention "past" at all.
The manga never explicitly say, Buhan or Buutenks > Kid Buu.

Also Toriyama clearly say that not even Buu know how strong he is, Buutenks had no idea of how Kid Buu is strong, because when he is Kid Buu he lose his mind.

Buutenks is simply boasting that he is stronger than Super Buu and Innocent Buu, while Buuhan is boasting that he is stronger than Buutenks.

There is no actual connection to Kid Buu, because:
(1) Kid Buu had not even been introduced yet and was presented as a plot twist
(2) Buu loses his mind when he becomes Kid Buu
(3) Toriyama states that Buu does not even know his full strength, which clearly refers to Kid Buu.

Kid Buu​

1. Prior.
   1. Theorized to be weaker after the extraction of Good Buu.
   2. They thought that they could defeat him now, even though his buff form prior had them panicking.
   3. Noted to be the most difficult, yet he shed the forms that amplified his power.
2. Goku
   1. (SSJ3) They're neck and neck, with Goku repeatedly destroying his body, but Goku with his max chi should be able to obliterate him.
3. Vegeta
   1. (SSJ2) Vegeta gets bodied.
4. Good Buu
   1. Gets bodied.
5. Gohan and Gotenks
   1. Goku is confident in the strength of Gotenks and Gohan against Kid Buu.

This is extremely misleading and shows that you have not read the OP’s post.
“He’s theorized to be weaker” is simply wrong, and the manga itself directly disproves that through Kibitoshin’s actual dialogue. “Goku and Vegeta thought they could defeat him”? Really? This is deeply addressed in the OP.

Honestly, I do not think you read very well the OP at all. And since you are relying on the Viz translation as well, most of your points become unusable.

Also, stop bringing up the damn anime. We have anime profiles for a reason. Stop milking anime guides and statements for manga scaling or else we can nuke the anime profiles and just merge em if they're so "similar"

DB Kai is a remake intended to stay faithful to the manga’s dialogue and is an officially authorized medium. It directly contradicts your interpretation of the manga and supports ours, which makes our interpretation more likely to be correct.

Why should your interpretation, based on a misleading translation, take precedence over an actual Japanese, officially authorized medium?

This also shows how unreliable the Viz dialogue is, because the actual Japanese staff authoring the anime remake to stay faithful to the manga still explicitly state that Kid Buu becomes stronger after the absorptions are removed, and that he is not only the most dangerous, but also the most powerful.

 

[Damage3245]

SSJ3 Goku was strong enough not only to defeat Innocent Buu, but to kill him. This is also supported by the Kid Buu fight. Goku’s performance there shows that he was able to handle an opponent stronger than Super Buu on his own.

This is not really up for debate: Kid Buu is repeatedly stated and portrayed as being above Buff Buu and Super Buu. The manga explicitly states that he becomes stronger after the good souls influencing his power are removed. This is confirmed by Japanese speaker as well.

Buff Buu becomes stronger than Super Buu; this makes sense if the raw amount of power he got from absorbing South Kai was greater than the debuff he got from South Kai's goodness.

But it isn't stated that Kid Buu is stronger than Buff Buu. Kid Buu is just stronger than Fat Buu. That's because despite adding Supreme Kai's strength onto his own, he was significantly more debuffed going from Buff Buu to Fat Buu.

This interpretation makes complete sense. Nowhere is it stated that he kept getting stronger going from Buff Buu to Kid Buu. Goku and Vegeta aren't complete idiots with the memory of goldish; if they felt him keep on getting stronger going from Buff Buu to Kid Buu then they would not be so ridiculously overconfident that they could beat him just because he got smaller. They knew all too well that they could do nothing against Buuhan individually by themselves... It is utterly unsupported to argue that they'd witness their opponent get two power-ups on top of Buuhan's level of power and be like. "Wow, he's 4 feet tall now, we can totally take him on."

 

[BlackeJan]

Didn’t Akira said Gohan was the strongest non fusion character?

 

[Damage3245]

Didn’t Akira said Gohan was the strongest non fusion character?

So far as I'm aware there isn't an official statement from Toriyama that says that.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Buff Buu becomes stronger than Super Buu; this makes sense if the raw amount of power he got from absorbing South Kai was greater than the debuff he got from South Kai's goodness.

But it isn't stated that Kid Buu is stronger than Buff Buu. Kid Buu is just stronger than Fat Buu. That's because despite adding Supreme Kai's strength onto his own, he was significantly more debuffed going from Buff Buu to Fat Buu.

This interpretation makes complete sense. Nowhere is it stated that he kept getting stronger going from Buff Buu to Kid Buu. Goku and Vegeta aren't complete idiots with the memory of goldish; if they felt him keep on getting stronger going from Buff Buu to Kid Buu then they would not be so ridiculously overconfident that they could beat him just because he got smaller. They knew all too well that they could do nothing against Buuhan individually by themselves... It is utterly unsupported to argue that they'd witness their opponent get two power-ups on top of Buuhan's level of power and be like. "Wow, he's 4 feet tall now, we can totally take him on."

This is a good question but, It is actually wrong. Here, Kid Buu is presented as a powered-up version of Buu, with Super Buu shown before him in chronological order. It doesn't refer to Fat Buu. There is a chronological order of events.

Moreover, you are forgetting an important point: both the South Kaioshin and the chubby one are still inside Fat Buu here, so they were removed simultaneously. Both removed together.

If they were removed simultaneously, and we always see Buu instantly depower when absorptions are removed, then why, in this case, is his KI stated to increase?

How could the ki decrease afterward? Where would that rising KI even be coming from if both were removed at the same time? In other words, where would Buff Buu be getting the South Kaioshin’s KI, which you say it is a power up, if the South Kaioshin is already detached? Do you not see the issue with that logic? Try to think about this.

This is very simple logic: if both are removed simultaneously, and the ki increases, then overall it increased. It cannot randomly decrease afterward, because again, where would he be drawing that increase in KI he had before, if the South Kaioshin is already fully detached from Buu’s body? The only explanation is the actual one that Toriyama, the manga, and the anime present: the absorptions decrease his power.

Additionally, the ki is never stated to decrease. Why did Toriyama never point that out if that were the case? The KI is simply stated to increase.

You still do not agree with my interpretation? But my interpretation is supported by the anime, DB Kai (which was explicitly authorized as faithful to the manga), Toriyama, and the guidebooks, so my interpretation is more likely to be correct.

So why would my interpretation be wrong when I have several sources that say it is the correct one? You basically argue simply because you are in disbelief that Goku is that strong, when Toriyama told you Goku is stronger than Gohan, and that Gotenks never surpassed Goku.

Again also... why we keep ignore this? This is a special manga edition comparing all the villain, Kid Buu is the strongest majin in the manga as well. And Akira confirms so.

Didn’t Akira said Gohan was the strongest non fusion character?

Thanks for pointing this out. This is a common misconception the fandom created to preserve the idea that Gohan was the strongest, even though neither Akira nor the manga ever stated that even once. In fact, the opposite is true: Akira stated that Goku, right after the defeat of Buu, was the strongest of all. Even a rusty Goku with no training in the manga Akira made, casually outclass Gotenks. Vegeta say the same as well.
DB Kai and Toei also say the exact same thing within the Buu Saga itself.

The truth is that Goku is always the strongest and Number 1, just as Akira has always said.

 

[RoninSlayer200]

Snip.

Also on top of Kid Buu arguments, OP himself already responded to that point. Reading Buu's power is extremely hard. Arguing this same point is kinda repetitive when he already responded to these arguments.

This is stupid for a couple reasons. Buu's power is almost impossible to fully gauge at times, which makes it difficult for the opponent to get a read on it.

 

[Damage3245]

This is a good question but, It is actually wrong. Here, Kid Buu is presented as a powered-up version of Buu, with Super Buu shown before him in chronological order. It doesn't refer to Fat Buu. There is a chronological order of events.

Moreover, you are forgetting an important point: both the South Kaioshin and the chubby one are still inside Fat Buu here, so they were removed simultaneously. Both removed together.

If they were removed simultaneously, and we always see Buu instantly depower when absorptions are removed, then why, in this case, is his KI stated to increase?

How could the ki decrease afterward? Where would that rising KI even be coming from if both were removed at the same time? In other words, where would Buff Buu be getting the South Kaioshin’s KI, which you say it is a power up, if the South Kaioshin is already detached? Do you not see the issue with that logic? Try to think about this.

This is very simple logic: if both are removed simultaneously, and the ki increases, then overall it increased. It cannot randomly decrease afterward, because again, where would he be drawing that increase in KI he had before, if the South Kaioshin is already fully detached from Buu’s body? The only explanation is the actual one that Toriyama, the manga, and the anime present: the absorptions decrease his power.

It increased and decreased because Buu was going through a lengthy transformation back to his original form. Ask yourself why did he transform into Buff Buu at all instead of going straight to Kid Buu due to both of them being removed simultaneously?

Additionally, the ki is never stated to decrease. Why did Toriyama never point that out if that were the case? The KI is simply stated to increase.

It doesn't need to be explicitly stated. The reaction of Goku and Vegeta is enough. It is a fact that they were powerless against Buuhan, and Goku stated that he didn't believe either of them could beat Super Buu. (He makes no specific mention of it due to being their size, but because they separated from the fusion)

And if Kid Buu's Chi was never felt to decrease from being supposedly stronger than Buuhan.... How on Earth did they think they had any kind of a chance when they knew for a fact beforhand that their only hope was fusion against a supposedly weaker version of Buu?

You still do not agree with my interpretation? But my interpretation is supported by the anime, DB Kai (which was explicitly authorized as faithful to the manga), Toriyama, and the guidebooks, so my interpretation is more likely to be correct.

I don't care about the anime. This is not an anime thread. Manga > Kai.

So why would my interpretation be wrong when I have several sources that say it is the correct one? You basically argue simply because you are in disbelief that Goku is that strong, when Toriyama told you Goku is stronger than Gohan, and that Gotenks never surpassed Goku.

Gohan is definitely stronger than Goku. Buu confirmed that for us himself. He remembers fighting SSJ3 Goku, yet it was sensing Gohan which had him cautious.

Again also... why we keep ignore this? This is a special manga edition comparing all the villain, Kid Buu is the strongest majin in the manga as well. And Akira confirms so.

That just shows that bonus material like that is not always reliable.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

It increased and decreased because Buu was going through a length transformation back to his original form. Ask yourself why did he transform into Buff Buu at all instead of going straight to Kid Buu due to both of them being removed simultaneously?

He did indeed, no one denies that. He undergo a metamorphosis. But a physical metamorphosis is different than blindly ignore where the KI come from.

My question was different: if the ki supposedly “decreased,” where was Buff Buu getting the ki to increase from, if the South Kaioshin was already detached? Can you answer?

Both Kaioshin are removed simultaneously. That means if the ki is stated to increase at that moment, then that’s the result: overall, it increased. The idea that it later “decreases” is something you are adding, because it is never actually stated.

What’s really happening is that you’re being misled by Goku’s and Vegeta’s immediate reactions, exactly as Toriyama intended for suspense. But their reaction is not reliable as a measuring tool here, because it gets proven wrong almost immediately.

It doesn't need to be explicitly stated. The reaction of Goku and Vegeta is enough. It is a fact that they were powerless against Buuhan, and Goku stated that he didn't believe either of them could beat Super Buu. (He makes no specific mention of it due to being their size, but because they separated from the fusion)

I don’t disagree with the Buuhan part. Kid Buu was playing around and still showed superiority over Goku. Goku needed to be left alone for several minutes to charge his ki just to hypothetically do something. So how does that contradict anything? Goku alone Vs Kid Buu would lose miserably, very bad.

So I don't disagree Buhan is > Goku, but there is nothing that suggest Buhan > Kid. Can we work on an hybrid scaling chain?

It’s because of the fusion and also the size. Even in the manga, their power is drastically reduced when they’re smaller, and Goku was surprised that they returned to their original size.

And if Kid Buu's Chi was never felt to decrease from being supposedly stronger than Buuhan.... How on Earth did they think they had any kind of a chance when they knew for a fact beforhand that their only hope was fusion against a supposedly weaker version of Buu?

Kid Buu’s ki is stated to increase due to the removal of the absorptions, and it becomes hard to gauge because no one can properly read him. Simple as that. You keep relying on Goku and Vegeta’s reactions, but that doesn’t prove anything.

I don't care about the anime. This is not an anime thread. Manga > Kai.

The manga states that the absorptions decreased Buu’s power, and DB Kai is an officially recognized medium that is faithful to the manga. The manga never stated Buuhan > Kid Buu, and it never stated Gohan > Goku.

On the other hand, DB Kai is > Damage’s opinion, and DB Kai even is > my own opinion.

Gohan is definitely stronger than Goku. Buu confirmed that for us himself. He remembers fighting SSJ3 Goku, yet it was sensing Gohan which had him cautious.


That just shows that bonus material like that is not always reliable.

Goku was holding back against Buu, as Goku explicitly told us, so your argument is pointless. We never see Goku at full power until Goku chooses to reveal it. So Super Buu has no idea how strong Goku is, because Goku himself told us he held back.

Akira stated that Goku, right after the defeat of Buu, was the strongest of all. Even a rusty Goku with no training in the manga Akira made, casually outclass Gotenks. Vegeta say the same as well.

The truth is that Goku is always the strongest and Number 1, just as Akira has always said.

As for the bonus material, why does it consistently match the anime? Is everyone wrong? Are all the anime producers wrong? Are all the guidebooks wrong? Are the Japanese staff officially authorized to make Kai faithful to the manga also wrong?

And yet somehow only we, reading flawed Viz translations, are supposed to be right?

Honestly we are arguing in circle.

If it possible to call more admins and make a summary post, and judge this, or working on a scaling chain. But as also @Qawsedf234 said, no way Kid Buu or Goku are weaker than Super Buu or Gohan.

 

[Damage3245]

So I don't disagree Buhan is > Goku, but there is nothing that suggest Buhan > Kid. Can we work on an hybrid scaling chain?

What did you have in mind for a "hybrid scaling chain"? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

What did you have in mind for a "hybrid scaling chain"? I'm not sure what you mean.

If you prefer, you can call it a retcon for the final fight, or say that Toriyama simply changed his mind. But even then, after seeing all this additional evidence, we cannot simply deny the narrative, the author’s intent, or the portrayal of Goku and Kid Buu. Toriyama clearly pushed the idea that Goku became the strongest, and that Kid Buu could very well be the strongest too.

We cannot just dismiss sources like interviews, guidebooks, and both the extra-manga material and anime, and then claim they carry no weight. That is unfair. At that point, it becomes a matter of blindly ignoring anything that contradicts our own point of view.

Especially because actual evidence from guidebooks, manga-related material, and interviews has been posted. So this is not even just a matter of saying, “I dismiss the anime.”

If we want to be very strict, the manga never says Buhan> Kid Buu, but it also never says the opposite.

However, there is evidence that can lead to that conclusion.

For Kid Buu’s profile, I think enough proof has been posted to place him above Super Buu, there is a lot, and there is a reasonable case, based on narrative, interviews, and guidebooks for manga, for a possible or likely rating above Buuhan.

We could also note the opposite perspective on Buuhan’s profile as well.

But this wiki should properly index every source, especially when there is such a large amount of evidence.

As for Goku, we could give him a possible or higher rating too, stating that he might be the strongest warrior.

But that still does not automatically mean he is as strong as Buuhan or Buutenks. Just stronger than Gohan.

I would like to hear @Qawsedf234's opinion, because I think you and him are the one that fully read the OP and parteciped for the discussion.

 

[Stefano4444]

For Kid Buu’s profile, I think enough proof has been posted to place him above Super Buu, there is a lot, and there is a reasonable case, based on narrative, interviews, and guidebooks for manga, for a possible or likely rating above Buuhan.

Indeed, the proof/evidence brought by the CRT overwheliving favour the notion of Full Power SSj3 Goku & Kid Buu be stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

But when it come to upscaling Buuhan and Buutenks then upscaling more tricky with both sides to have points against the others, so Kid Buu be stronger than them its more questionable.

Varies for SSj3 could work for Goku as to maintain the form its requid a lot of energy/stamina (he even had to stop fighting Kid Buu to acculumate Ki only to turn back to Base later), meaning the user can't maintain the max strength of the transformation for very long.

 

[TiltedFN]

I agree with infinite, the opposition is basically ignoring any and all evidence for Kid Buu and Goku. Nor are they actually paying attention to the lore for Kid Buu and how we have an explanation for his strength. I'm still under the opinion that the obvious conclusion should be Goku>Kid Buu. No reason that his statement of being able to destroy Buu at full power is wrong nor contradicted since he simply never got there.

 

[Vietthai96]

Oke i will call other staff to looks at this

@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Reiner04 @Godernet @Random-Helper323

 

[KingTempest]

The manga that Akira Toriyama wrote? The same man who stated on like 3 separate occasions that Kid Buu was the strongest and we have an in universe reason as to why as well? So what? Toriyama is wrong about what he wrote? You say the amount of statements can't be ignored, and then you go on to ignore them. Tell me how that works.

We keep talking about akira this akira that then you look at the manga that AKIRA DREW and it shows the complete opposite.

If the databook said that first form frieza was equal to beerus we gonna use it now?

Start ignoring databooks when they contradict canon

 

[Random-Helper323]

There seems to be a leap in logic there. The OP says something about Buu receiving two power downs from two Kais and how that surpasses Buuhan for that reason alone. The number of power ups and downs doesn't decide which boost is greater. Super Saiyan is one boost, X50, while the next two forms are two boosts which add up to X8 between them. Unless I'm missing something that is a bit of an issue.

There's also something else: Goku needed to fuse with someone to fight Buuhan.

 

[TiltedFN]

We keep talking about akira this akira that then you look at the manga that AKIRA DREW and it shows the complete opposite.

If the databook said that first form frieza was equal to beerus we gonna use it now?

Start ignoring databooks when they contradict canon

Why would your word hold ANY validity over what the LITERAL author said? I too can ignore evidence and just go on to make up whatever. It isn't hard. So answer. Why is Toriyama wrong? Because fad as im aware, you haven't address a single argument.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

We keep talking about akira this akira that then you look at the manga that AKIRA DREW and it shows the complete opposite.

If the databook said that first form frieza was equal to beerus we gonna use it now?

Start ignoring databooks when they contradict canon

The Toriyama drew does not show the complete opposite, and what you said earlier was already picked apart from Infinite where you used viz mistranslations, and the original Japanese is against you. If the manga is a bit ambiguous, and then the author himself clarifies then his position should be the one we take not yours.

A data book would never say that, but if it did we wouldn’t accept that particular statement because we have statements in the anime and manga that directly contradict it.

There seems to be a leap in logic there. The OP says something about Buu receiving two power downs from two Kais and how that surpasses Buuhan for that reason alone. There's also something else: Goku needed to fuse with someone to fight Buuhan.

No, the OP is saying that when Buu loses his absorptions he gains back the power he has as stated directly by Kibitoshin, and this is directly supported by pretty much every guide relating to the manga INCLUDING Toriyama himself who the staff want to ignore.

 

[Random-Helper323]

No, the OP is saying that when Buu loses his absorptions he gains back the power he has as stated directly by Kibitoshin, and this is directly supported by pretty much every guide relating to the manga INCLUDING Toriyama himself who the staff want to ignore.

I know. It talks about that being a bigger difference than Gohan without elaborating which seemingly implies it's just because there are two Kai and only one Gohan.

I'm aware that's not the only argument obviously. What seems to be the point is the various statements telling us Kid Buu is the worst, and Goku's inability to beat him. To be honest, Gohan being unable to beat him wouldn't discount Buuhan being stronger either.

 

[KingTempest]

Guess I'll reply to some of this as well. Are you forgetting that Fat Buu couldn't sense Ki, Tempest? Only Super Buu gained that ability. Why the hell would this statement matter if Fat Buu straight up wasn't capable of of gauging Goku's strength? Even if he was, we know Goku was massively holding back here, so now what. So it wouldn't be something accurate regardless. Not to mention, this is only Piccolo saying these words and not Super Buu. Even if Super Buu was the one saying this and making a comparison to Goku for some reason, the only comparison would be to how much power Goku was outputting.

Not a single thing in here matters.
Me not being able to sense strength doesn't mean a damn thing if I'm whooping everybody's ass around me.
Buu fought everybody there. He doesn't need to sense their Ki when they already fought.

Are we gonna say Frieza doesn't know how strong Goku and Vegeta was on namek cause he couldn't sense Ki?

Also, we don't know Goku was "massively holding back". What is this headcanon. We literally have Goku's inner thoughts and he was struggling. Holding back my butt.
Also now it's "it's Piccolo saying those words" but this is the Piccolo who could sense Ki.

Already addressed this as well btw. They would be sensing their weakened Ki in here. Even Super Buu admits that they can NOT beat him because of their size. Just straight up. Goku even thought he'd be able to blow a huge hole in Buu's body despite being tiny and weakened. Not to mention in regular Super Saiyan as well. And because of Buu's words, that means Goku WOULD be able to do some heavy damage to Super Buu while not even in his strongest form.

An addressing doesn't mean it's a good one.
Not a mention in the manga says that they're weaker, and although I do believe it, they didn't even mention it.
They didn't even know at that point that they couldn't blow apart his body, they thought they were at their regular levels of power

Goku blatantly says that if they leave his body, which means that they go back to their original forms, he is still stronger, which is why he brought up the Potora again.
Like what are we talking about. "This is the strength while they're weakened inside him" he said IF THEY LEAVE HIS BODY.

Like I said before, Goku also has no reason to think he'd go back to regular size after exiting Buu's body. He doesn't know the mechanics of it or how it works. He was literally surprised when he went back to his normal.

Never is he surprised when he went back to normal. He's surprised that the dudes covered in pink blobs are now back to normal.
He doesn't say "we're back to normal", he says they're back to normal.

He's literally stronger without the absorptions because he doesn't have any more Heart. That was the entire reason his Ki increased and how him being the most troublesome Buu is directly attributed with his Evil which equals power. He is directly stated to be the most powerful Buu right there on panel. He did not get weaker. Using Goku and Vegeta's reactions is also wrong since Buu's power is always pretty hard to sense. Buu was also clearly holding back since regular Vegeta was able to knock away one of his Ki blast. But when Buu shows his true power, Goku and Vegeta legit run away. They were wrong. Vegeta later on admits Buu's power was beyond his imagination. How much more do you need again? Goku and Vegeta thought they could take Buu because of his SIZE alone. They got cocky and overconfident along with Buu holding back. That confidence was gone mere panels later.

No.
#1 Not a soul says he's stronger without the absorptions due to his lack of heart. It says he's the most difficult due to his rationality being gone, which is why his literal first 2 actions were BLOWING UP THE PLANET and going to do the same to OTHER PLANETS.
#2 Buu's power was only hard to sense when he was more intelligent and actively suppressed it until it was time for him to get angry and crash out.
#3 You somehow get the scan that says "he's the most difficult" as stronger, but when there's a scan that says Buutenks at that point is the most powerful majin to ever exist, which would go over his original form, we ignore it? Why are the direct statements ignored and the hinted ones the "more canon" ones?

Literally everybody in DBZ doesn't use their max power off rip. Him "holding back" doesn't mean his true power was just never shown.

What is this "size alone" stuff too.
They fought Frieza. They know that size means nothing.
They let Gohan fight Cell. They don't throw common sense out the way.

 

[KingTempest]

I'll start by saying that I think you have been mislead by ViZ translation. And I I think you have not fully read the OP so I'll point out the issues again.

Goku did not change his mind just to “flex”; that is factually incorrect. He deliberately lied because he wanted the younger generation to start taking on his responsibilities.

SSJ3 Goku was strong enough not only to defeat Innocent Buu, but to kill him. This is also supported by the Kid Buu fight. Goku’s performance there shows that he was able to handle an opponent stronger than Super Buu on his own.

This is not really up for debate: Kid Buu is repeatedly stated and portrayed as being above Buff Buu and Super Buu. The manga explicitly states that he becomes stronger after the good souls influencing his power are removed. This is confirmed by Japanese speaker as well.

This is canon up to Innocent Buu.
We know Innocent Buu is weaker than the likes of Super Buu because the God Ki in his body was minimized due to the Grand Supreme Kai's influence. The moment they split up to Good and Evil Buu, that God Ki came back in Evil Buu, and Super Buu who had Good Buu absorbed was stronger.
Notice how after he removed the Good Buu that had that Supreme Kai heart, he got stronger. But moving from Super -> Kid doesn't mean he got even stronger
This is not saying every single transformation that involved someone with a heart made him weaker, or else Buuhan would be weaker than Super Buu since Gohan is pure of heart.

Kid Buu is not stated nor portrayed as being above Buff Buu and Super Buu in any capacity. They panicked when they saw Buff Buu and they were fine when they saw Kid Buu.

This is also reinforced in a manga guidebook, which presents him as a powered-up version of Buu that Goku fights after laying out the full sequence of events in chronological order.

The same guidebook says Buuhan is the mightiest majin.
The same guidebook says Buu got weaker after losing his absorptions after showing the panel of Good Buu cut out, showing this is referencing him going to Kid Buu.
These guides do not matter.

Even the Dragon Ball 50th Anniversary Shonen Jump issue states outright that he is the strongest Majin.

El Manga Legendario says that

• Kid Buu is the most violent Majin but not as strong as his other forms
• Gotenks and Gohan would have been enough to defeat him

These Dragon Ball databooks are bullshit and the sooner you understand it the better.

No, he isn't, the actual japanese doesn't mention past whatsoever, it says この瞬間こそ未来において = “This moment, and also in the future”, doesn't mention "past" at all.
The manga never explicitly say, Buhan or Buutenks > Kid Buu.

He is literally the ONLY MAJIN at that point, how is he the strongest one of the present if he's the ONLY ONE.
All it says is that this moment he's reached the pinnacle of majin power, which would obviously encompass every version before.

Viz can be as wrong as it needs to but viz isn't going to translate "he's the strongest ever" to "he licks lollipops with his nose", so don't discredit my entire point cause I use the translation it was published in. If you want to retranslate my points then go ahead but I promise you they all say damn near the same thing.

Why would your word hold ANY validity over what the LITERAL author said? I too can ignore evidence and just go on to make up whatever. It isn't hard. So answer. Why is Toriyama wrong? Because fad as im aware, you haven't address a single argument.

The same databooks that scale Kid Buu above other Buus says Kid Buu is weaker.

My word holds no validity over the author. THE MANGA holds validity over the author.

 

[Killerdrone123]

when there's a scan that says Buutenks at that point is the most powerful majin to ever exist, which would go over his original form, we ignore it? Why are the direct statements ignored and the hinted ones the "more canon" ones?

I think others have pointed this out to you already but the scan you are using here got mistranlted by viz the original raws do not talk about his past version just the current version and the future so yeah this part doesn't really contradict kid buu being stronger than buutenks

 

[KingTempest]

I think others have pointed this out to you already but the scan you are using here got mistranlted by viz the original raws do not talk about his past version just the current version and the future so yeah this part doesn't really contradict kid buu being stronger than buutenks

Again.

He is literally the ONLY MAJIN at that point, how is he the strongest one of the present if he's the ONLY ONE.
All it says is that this moment he's reached the pinnacle of majin power, which would obviously encompass every version before.

 

[TiltedFN]

Ill respond to all of this soon enough lmao

 

[KingTempest]

I think others have pointed this out to you already but the scan you are using here got mistranlted by viz the original raws do not talk about his past version just the current version and the future so yeah this part doesn't really contradict kid buu being stronger than buutenks

I didn't even click this link

This is the wrong scan you linked, this is a gt scan

Ill respond to all of this soon enough lmao

No rush

 

[Killerdrone123]

I didn't even click this link

This is the wrong scan you linked, this is a gt scan

No rush

I have updated the link like in second or so,I guess you didn't refresh the site or something like that

 

[KingTempest]

I have updated the link like in second or so,I guess you didn't refresh the site or something like that

yeah, thanks

 

[TiltedFN]

Not a single thing in here matters.

Yeah it does actually matter. Because you disregarded multiple plot points which DIRECTLY affect your entire argument.
You can't just leave things out and still expect your argument to hold any validity when you're operating off of false information.
That would be implying you can just make any argument even while not having the full story. Wrong.

Me not being able to sense strength doesn't mean a damn thing if I'm whooping everybody's ass around me.

This is supposed to be a rebuttal to what exactly?
You made it a point of Super Buu sensing energy to try and scale Gotenks past Super Saiyan 3 Goku didn't you?
And I made it clear that Fat Buu can't sense energy. So what does Super Buu being the strongest thing Buu's ever sensed mean here exactly?
More like Gotenks and Gohan are the ONLY strong powers he's sensed. And Goku was holding back so it doesn't matter either way.
Lets say Fat Buu COULD sense energy, so what? Goku was not going all out and it's very clear that Super Saiyan 3 can get massively stronger depending on how much Ki you put into it.
Your entire point is a complete non argument. It doesn't matter.

Buu fought everybody there. He doesn't need to sense their Ki when they already fought.

Then why did you bring it up? That is your argument Tempest. Don't backtrack now.

Are we gonna say Frieza doesn't know how strong Goku and Vegeta was on namek cause he couldn't sense Ki?

False equivalence? Frieza couldn't sense energy but he knew by fighting that he was stronger.
He also is extremely talented and could deduce how much percentage of his power was needed to fold Goku even without know what his exact strength level was.
Very bad example here.
Maybe this whole Ki sensing point you brought up is literally just irrelevant?

Also, we don't know Goku was "massively holding back".

Yes we do know that Goku is massively holding back.
We see in the Kid Buu fight that he was fighting harder than he EVER has before.
Up to that point he did not go all out and you'd never be able to prove he was.
He goes from being hyper relative to Kid Buu to claiming that he can absolutely obliterate him instantly when he charges up his Ki to the max.
Fat Buu did no damage to him whatsoever. And Kid Buu is way stronger than Fat Buu and Super Buu based on official statements from Goku that his Ki was rising relative to Super Buu for two transformation sequences.

What is this headcanon. We literally have Goku's inner thoughts and he was struggling. Holding back my butt.

Struggling? Struggling WHERE? He's actively being exhausted from Super Saiyan 3 draining energy and STILL claimed he could of beaten him whenever he wanted to.
And we find out later just how MUCH Goku was holding back. He's fighting a stronger Buu without full power and could win instantly if he wanted.
The amount of power he was outputting just wasn't near what he was capable of. Buu couldn't damage Goku whatsoever. But we know Goku could have.
So yes, he was holding back to a significant degree.

Also now it's "it's Piccolo saying those words" but this is the Piccolo who could sense Ki.

Yeah and like I said before, why are you trying to attribute Piccolo's words to Super Buu? PICCOLO said that. Not Super Buu.
And regardless, does it matter? No. It doesn't. You know why?
Because Goku was holding back the entire time which Piccolo even QUESTIONS him about.
So why do Piccolo's words mean anything when he never witnessed a full power GoKu?
Okay cool, a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is superior to a massively holding back Goku? Yes, that's fine.
But your evidence for Goku being weaker is flimsy at best and dishonest at worst.

An addressing doesn't mean it's a good one.

Tempest. I don't think you should be saying this after you said Akira Toriyama was wrong about how strong his characters are. Lets be serious for a second.

Not a mention in the manga says that they're weaker,

This is only true if you haven't read the Buu Saga.
Buu literally attributes Goku not being able to damage his body because he's far smaller than even fleas. What does this mean to you? Ah yes
Their attack power is greatly diminished which I even backed up with literal scans which you conveniently ignored.
If they can't do something they would regularly be able to do with their own power, what implications does that have?
Well if you are actually being honest, that means they are weaker. Their attack potency isn't the way it SHOULD be which is the reason Super Buu says they can NOT beat them which directly implies they would be able to do something to him regularly. And this is a Super Saiyan 1 Goku btw. Didn't even bother going into 3 at all.
Goku legit claims he can cause massive damage to Buu's body with a regular Ki blast. I don't get how one could read this and come out sayin they aren't weaker. They 100 percent are. It couldn't be more clear.

and although I do believe it, they didn't even mention it.

I mean you should believe it since it's literally on panel, but alright.

They didn't even know at that point that they couldn't blow apart his body,

Because Goku clearly didn't know the extent of how ineffective their power was there?
Goku thinks even with his weakened energy he could damage Buu in normal Super Saiyan.
Buu points how specifically how small they are therefore they are extremely weak.

they thought they were at their regular levels of power

Prove that?
And Tempest, I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but since Goku and Vegeta are weakened inside Buu's body, they would be sensing their own weakened energy, not their normal levels. To them, that IS their normal levels since that's all they are sensing. Can Goku and Vegeta not sense their own power?
This works in my favor because they didn't even know HOW much weaker they already were on top of sensing their weakened energy. You have no proof for that claim.

Goku blatantly says that if they leave his body, which means that they go back to their original forms,

Whos says Goku would go back to his original form going outside of Buu?
Why does Goku have any reason to think that at all?

he is still stronger, which is why he brought up the Potora again.

Nope. He's still talking about his current energy levels here dude. He brings up Potara since he'd believe it'd get the job done no matter what.
And stop beating around the Bush. All these statements of Goku wouldn't refer to his original power. Not like this matters for the end result regardless.

Like what are we talking about. "This is the strength while they're weakened inside him" he said IF THEY LEAVE HIS BODY.

What are you talking about?
I already told you that Goku has no reason to think he'd go back to normal.
That's why after Vegeta crushed the Potara, he says to Goku "if we go out like this" they would be killed.
Why would Goku tell Vegeta to wait when the Potara is already gone? Why refer to the Potara when it's not an option anymore?
Goku only brings up the fusion dance later, not before. So using basic context, Goku is talking about their current state and their current energy levels.

Never is he surprised when he went back to normal. He's surprised that the dudes covered in pink blobs are now back to normal.

In that same panel you posted we have Goku being surprised he went back to normal lmao. Cmon.
Hell, we even see how far away they flew before they got back to normal. It wasn't something instant.
For all Goku knew, they wouldn't have turned back at all but he's clearly surprised they did.

He doesn't say "we're back to normal", he says they're back to normal.

Not talking about that panel buddy, but it can still be used all the same.
Prove Goku knew that would happen. That the pods would just disappear and they'd magically be restored.
What reason is there for Goku to assume such a thing?

No.
#1 Not a soul says he's stronger without the absorptions due to his lack of heart.

Tempest. Stop ignoring the material you're talking about. His power got REDUCED BECAUSE OF THE HEART HE HAD!!
IT'S ON PANEL. Heart directly weakens Buu's power and he was bound by it the entire time.
Are you just saying the increasing power and Supreme Kai's words are just wrong now for some reason?
Can you actually prove that with any dialogue? Maybe narrative implications?
"He gained a heart due to the absorptions which reduced his power"

It says he's the most difficult due to his rationality being gone,

It says he's the most troublesome overall.
He's pure evil and can't be controlled.
His evilness is directly attributed to his power output right in front of you.
Stop trying to push this "he's the most dangerous, not most powerful" nonsense. That isn't ever stated.
When Kid Buu is in his pure form, his power will be the HIGHEST since he won't be restricted by anything.
All forms of Super Buu had this issue entirely since they were under the influence of Grand Supreme Kai.

which is why his literal first 2 actions were BLOWING UP THE PLANET and going to do the same to OTHER PLANETS.

I already addressed this but clearly you didn't read my responses so I'll just type it here.

I mean did Buu remember Goku and Vegeta? They basically just killed Super Buu. Do we have any reason to believe that Kid Buu was planning on continuing the fight? Actually, I think you're just wrong here. When there was nobody left, Buuhan was going to just destroy the planet instantly. Buu didn't see them so he opted to do the same. Buu didn't destroy the Kai planet instantly and actually opted to fight them. He even fell asleep waiting for them to make a move. So no actually, this is an in character thing for Buu to do. Literally all of them. Super Buu didn't destroy everything either. I will say ego was part of it, but the premise is the same no doubt.

Buu didn't know Goku and Vegeta were there btw. He directed his next attack at THEM which blew up the planet. Buutenks would of did the same thing.
Kid Buu did not blow up the Kai planet since he had people there to fight. So you're wrong yet again. All Buu's would have destroyed the destruction of everything once the opps in front of them were gone. Please read the material.

#2 Buu's power was only hard to sense when he was more intelligent and actively suppressed it until it was time for him to get angry and crash out.

Prove that. Hella headcanon. Toriyama directly says Buu's power is just hard to sense fully in general.

#3 You somehow get the scan that says "he's the most difficult" as stronger, but when there's a scan that says Buutenks at that point is the most powerful majin to ever exist, which would go over his original form, we ignore it? Why are the direct statements ignored and the hinted ones the "more canon" ones?

You mean Buutenks literally gloating about his new found power? Is Buutenks stronger than Rymus now?
I hope you know that Piccolo's intelligence is part of Buu. Buu knows there are other Majins since they are just demons. He literally just IS the strongest current Majin for all he knows. You're using a mistranslated panel as well btw. That's how I know you didn't read the OP.
Btw, I need you to prove Buutenks ever knew of Kid Buu's existence. I already explained why that isn't the case so I need you to address it.
It was surprising to Piccolo when Super Buu had other memories in general btw. Which is direct proof that he doesn't have to know about everything before. At best he retains info from Fat Buu?
Can you tell me why he'd have memories of his mindless Kid Buu self please?

Literally everybody in DBZ doesn't use their max power off rip. Him "holding back" doesn't mean his true power was just never shown.

Tempest. So you're saying that the only statement of Goku ever going all out in the Buu Saga being directly told to use means he was going all out against Fat Buu eve though he DIDN'T go all out? Yeah I'm gonna need you to back up your claims please, this is getting annoying.
This is also supported by Vegeta btw who said Goku's power was beyond his imagination. He clearly never went all out during the entire arc.
And sure as hell never reached full power.

What is this "size alone" stuff too.

Maybe what it sounds like?
Vegeta instantly judged Kid Buu based on his size alone and deduced he was nothing special.
He instantly regretted it a couple panels later.

They fought Frieza. They know that size means nothing.

Okay? Yet they still made the same mistake on panel, so what's your point dude?

They let Gohan fight Cell. They don't throw common sense out the way.

False equivalence? Gohan was stronger than all of them and Goku knew it.
Like I said, it's hard to sense Buu's power, he was suppressing himself, AND they underestimated him because of his size.
It's all of those factors. So stop bringing up random examples that literally mean nothing for your argument.

The same databooks that scale Kid Buu above other Buus says Kid Buu is weaker.

Yet I can find a dozen other Kid Buu scans + author statements that say Kid Buu is stronger.
Oh but when you find the rare statement of Kid Buu being weaker it's game now right? Okay lol.
Ultimately it doesn't matter since Toriyama himself said Kid Buu is superior.

My word holds no validity over the author. THE MANGA holds validity over the author.

Yeah the same manga that was written by the man who said multiple times that Kid Buu is the most powerful. Now what?
Toriyama's words and his information hold true to the manga Tempest. So yes, you can't dismiss it just because you feel like it.
Are we going to ignore how you brushed over every other point as well?
You claim you read both sides of the argument yet I still have to explain everything to you and correct you on information that is told to you in the panels.

You don't have any arguments against Kid Buu actually being stronger.
You don't have any rebuttals for most scans favoring Kid Buu.
You don't have any rebuttals to Toriyama saying Kid Buu and Goku are the strongest warriors by the end.
You didn't have an argument for Kid Buu's nature and us having an in universe explanation for why he's so strong. You ignored it in place of your own narrative.

I need you to understand that it doesn't matter how, why, or when Goku got stronger. The fact is, it DID happen and that was quite literally the intent of how Toriyama wanted his story to unfold. Ignoring this would literally be saying Toriyama is just dead wrong about how he wrote his story and how he wanted it to end narratively. What is the point if we just dismiss things we don't like? I could sit here and argue with you on Goku vs Gohan or Goku vs Super Buu, but at the end it doesn't matter since Goku gets upscaled by the time he fights Buu. I'm sorry but your word doesn't overrule Toriyama's. The story doesn't care about how you feel about. But instead you're gonna sit here and ignore factual evidence in place of debates that simply don't matter. You've made wild leaps in judgement and misunderstood the source material countless times.

 

[TiltedFN]

There seems to be a leap in logic there. The OP says something about Buu receiving two power downs from two Kais and how that surpasses Buuhan for that reason alone.

Yes, Buu got stronger since he had all Heart restrictions released upon the removal of South Supreme Kai and Grand Supreme Kai. So his limiters are gone basically being the most troublesome Buu which is attributed to power and evil. The two go hand in hand here.

The number of power ups and downs doesn't decide which boost is greater. Super Saiyan is one boost, X50, while the next two forms are two boosts which add up to X8 between them. Unless I'm missing something that is a bit of an issue.

I don't get what you mean here? What we know is that when his absorptions were removed, he gained tremendous power from both the Kai's being removed. So it would just scale him to the strongest Buu. Toriyama admitted so multiple times and aligns with his core philosophy behind villains and their strength level.

There's also something else: Goku needed to fuse with someone to fight Buuhan.

That's pretty irrelevant since Goku just got stronger at the end which is what Toriyama intended. He just did get a power boost which is why he can fight the strongest Buu. Ignoring this would be going against Toriyama's statements and his intent as an author which was clearly displayed to us in and out of universe. So it's not really an issue here.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah it does actually matter. Because you disregarded multiple plot points which DIRECTLY affect your entire argument.
You can't just leave things out and still expect your argument to hold any validity when you're operating off of false information.
That would be implying you can just make any argument even while not having the full story. Wrong.

This is supposed to be a rebuttal to what exactly?
You made it a point of Super Buu sensing energy to try and scale Gotenks past Super Saiyan 3 Goku didn't you?
And I made it clear that Fat Buu can't sense energy. So what does Super Buu being the strongest thing Buu's ever sensed mean here exactly?
More like Gotenks and Gohan are the ONLY strong powers he's sensed. And Goku was holding back so it doesn't matter either way.
Lets say Fat Buu COULD sense energy, so what? Goku was not going all out and it's very clear that Super Saiyan 3 can get massively stronger depending on how much Ki you put into it.
Your entire point is a complete non argument. It doesn't matter.

You just fail to understand the basic point.

If I beat somebody's ass, I know how strong they are. I don't need to sense their energy to know how strong they are, because if I'm using myself as a metric

Then why did you bring it up? That is your argument Tempest. Don't backtrack now.

False equivalence? Frieza couldn't sense energy but he knew by fighting that he was stronger.
He also is extremely talented and could deduce how much percentage of his power was needed to fold Goku even without know what his exact strength level was.
Very bad example here.
Maybe this whole Ki sensing point you brought up is literally just irrelevant?

Buu couldn't sense energy but he knew by fighting that he was stronger.

Yes we do know that Goku is massively holding back.
We see in the Kid Buu fight that he was fighting harder than he EVER has before.
Up to that point he did not go all out and you'd never be able to prove he was.
He goes from being hyper relative to Kid Buu to claiming that he can absolutely obliterate him instantly when he charges up his Ki to the max.
Fat Buu did no damage to him whatsoever. And Kid Buu is way stronger than Fat Buu and Super Buu based on official statements from Goku that his Ki was rising relative to Super Buu for two transformation sequences.

Wrong.
Goku was fighting harder than he ever has before because he was losing ki and the fight was slowly becoming more of a stressful fight.
You realize that we have on his profile
"The Kamehameha can get strong enough to completely annihilate beings far superior to the user"
He could be physically be equal to Buu and at max obliterate him.

Struggling? Struggling WHERE? He's actively being exhausted from Super Saiyan 3 draining energy and STILL claimed he could of beaten him whenever he wanted to.
And we find out later just how MUCH Goku was holding back. He's fighting a stronger Buu without full power and could win instantly if he wanted.
The amount of power he was outputting just wasn't near what he was capable of. Buu couldn't damage Goku whatsoever. But we know Goku could have.
So yes, he was holding back to a significant degree.

He never said if he wanted to he could've nuked him, he said that he was capable of winning.
He literally confirmed that he was acting cool.

Yeah and like I said before, why are you trying to attribute Piccolo's words to Super Buu? PICCOLO said that. Not Super Buu.
And regardless, does it matter? No. It doesn't. You know why?
Because Goku was holding back the entire time which Piccolo even QUESTIONS him about.
So why do Piccolo's words mean anything when he never witnessed a full power GoKu?
Okay cool, a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is superior to a massively holding back Goku? Yes, that's fine.
But your evidence for Goku being weaker is flimsy at best and dishonest at worst.

Super Saiyan 3 is 4x stronger than Super Saiyan 2.
You're telling me Goku went Super Saiyan 2, drained the **** out of his power, then massively held back.
You don't even make logical sense.
Not a single thing

Tempest. I don't think you should be saying this after you said Akira Toriyama was wrong about how strong his characters are. Lets be serious for a second.

Never did I say he was wrong.
I said the manga holds priority.

This is only true if you haven't read the Buu Saga.
Buu literally attributes Goku not being able to damage his body because he's far smaller than even fleas. What does this mean to you? Ah yes
Their attack power is greatly diminished which I even backed up with literal scans which you conveniently ignored.
If they can't do something they would regularly be able to do with their own power, what implications does that have?
Well if you are actually being honest, that means they are weaker. Their attack potency isn't the way it SHOULD be which is the reason Super Buu says they can NOT beat them which directly implies they would be able to do something to him regularly. And this is a Super Saiyan 1 Goku btw. Didn't even bother going into 3 at all.
Goku legit claims he can cause massive damage to Buu's body with a regular Ki blast. I don't get how one could read this and come out sayin they aren't weaker. They 100 percent are. It couldn't be more clear.

Goku before he went in his body was confirmed by Buu to not be able to scratch him and he went into SSJ3 right after and he said it means nothing.

I mean you should believe it since it's literally on panel, but alright.

Because Goku clearly didn't know the extent of how ineffective their power was there?
Goku thinks even with his weakened energy he could damage Buu in normal Super Saiyan.
Buu points how specifically how small they are therefore they are extremely weak.

Prove that?
And Tempest, I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but since Goku and Vegeta are weakened inside Buu's body, they would be sensing their own weakened energy, not their normal levels. To them, that IS their normal levels since that's all they are sensing. Can Goku and Vegeta not sense their own power?
This works in my favor because they didn't even know HOW much weaker they already were on top of sensing their weakened energy. You have no proof for that claim.

You don't have a single sentence in the manga proving a point you made which is why your entire message has 1 hyperlink.
I proved every point of mine. You vomited a bunch of words.

Whos says Goku would go back to his original form going outside of Buu?
Why does Goku have any reason to think that at all?

Based on the fact that he says "when we get out of here", which would make no difference if he was the same strength.

Nope. He's still talking about his current energy levels here dude. He brings up Potara since he'd believe it'd get the job done no matter what.
And stop beating around the Bush. All these statements of Goku wouldn't refer to his original power. Not like this matters for the end result regardless.

Based on nothing at all

I'm not even gonna reply to all of this.
You have 3 hyperlinks, 1 of them regarding strength. Everything you've said in this message was headcanoned nonsense. You didn't prove a single point.

I'm not replying to word vomit. Tackle the points and prove them, I don't care about your deductions

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Given the entire point is to reach a conclusion as devoid of bias as possible the author should, logically, be the one who settles which interpretation is more reasonable to go with. And in this instance Tilted's take aligns better with what Toriyama says. Not Tempest's.

The source material supports what Toriyama says anyway. Given Kibito Kai states Buu was made weaker from having a heart and losing the heart he gained made him stronger. Which would refer to Super Buu because Super Buu has a heart, is just an inversion of the good and evil inside of Buu, and was the form Buu was in when Kibito Kai was explaining this. And we see Kid Buu hold off the Super Spirit Bomb which includes energy from Ultimate Gohan. With the characters stating they're 'giving everything they have' and even commenting that the Spirit Bomb might be 'too weak' to overwhelm Kid Buu.

The source material supports the notion of Kid Buu > Super Buu. The author consistently made claims that support the notion of Kid Buu > Super Buu as well as Goku being the strongest in the universe. So Tilted's interpretation is what makes the most sense here.

In short, I agree with Tilted's take. And I'd be fine with either of Qawsed's proposals (Buuhan Agenda or Kid Buu Agenda) so long as Kid Buu > Super Buu is kept as the truth. Which it is as stated and shown in the original manga.

 

[KingTempest]

This is canon up to Innocent Buu.
We know Innocent Buu is weaker than the likes of Super Buu because the God Ki in his body was minimized due to the Grand Supreme Kai's influence. The moment they split up to Good and Evil Buu, that God Ki came back in Evil Buu, and Super Buu who had Good Buu absorbed was stronger.
Notice how after he removed the Good Buu that had that Supreme Kai heart, he got stronger. But moving from Super -> Kid doesn't mean he got even stronger
This is not saying every single transformation that involved someone with a heart made him weaker, or else Buuhan would be weaker than Super Buu since Gohan is pure of heart.

So yall just don't read in here?

 

[TiltedFN]

You just fail to understand the basic point.

If I beat somebody's ass, I know how strong they are. I don't need to sense their energy to know how strong they are, because if I'm using myself as a metric

I don't care. You are the one who brought up Ki sensing and I dismantled it. You can't use that as a metric for determining literally anything since it's irrelevant.
And lets not forget how absolutely none of this applies to SS3 Goku.
What the hell are you even trying to say here anymore dude?
All of this is irrelevant since Goku was literally holding back his energy.
Gohan and Gotenks are the only powers he sensed. He never sensed full power SS3 Goku's Ki.

Buu couldn't sense energy but he knew by fighting that he was stronger.

Knew WHO was stronger? Gohan? Gotenks?
How does this have anything to do with Goku?
Fat Buu did NOT beat Goku and Goku didn't go all out either.
How in the world are you going to attribute any of these statements to a character who wasn't going all out?
I genuinely do no get this argument. Seriously, just drop it. It doesn't even help you out whatsoever.

Wrong.
Goku was fighting harder than he ever has before because he was losing ki and the fight was slowly becoming more of a stressful fight.

I too can assert things without proving it.
Prove Goku was going all out or you're literally just wrong.
We know for a fact he was holding back the ENTIRE TIME based on statements from Goku that came later.
These "nuh uh" arguments are getting irritating. Please read the material.

You realize that we have on his profile
"The Kamehameha can get strong enough to completely annihilate beings far superior to the user"
He could be physically be equal to Buu and at max obliterate him.

He wasn't physically equal to him.
If Goku says he's holding back, he is HOLDING BACK ENTIRELY.
It isn't "oh yeah Goku was holding back in SOME areas". Stop making things up.
Goku fought his hardest physically when he went against Kid Buu, he literally said that.
Kid Buu is stronger than Fat Buu and Goku kept up with him.
He was not doing that against Fat Buu. You genuinely have zero argument here. Just based all on vibes and what you think without any concrete evidence.
If Goku wasn't using all the Ki he could, he is holding back. Simple.

He never said if he wanted to he could've nuked him, he said that he was capable of winning.
He literally confirmed that he was acting cool.

What does this have to do with ANYTHING?? Tempest I beg you, read my CRT.

I should touch on Vegeta's character as well. The reason he goes to fight Kid Buu either way is that he believed it was HIS fault for making it harder on Goku, so he owns up to his mistakes. Goku ADMITS that they should have just fused in the first place. Vegeta REALIZES that Goku didn't actually want to particularly fight Buu solo in the first place. That's why he says "We're you being considerate towards me?" when he realizes. That was in the raw btw. It's the far right panel on the second page. Vegeta realizes he projected his own ideals onto Goku which Goku followed along and realized it was a mistake. That he as trying to act too cool and got cocky since he was just psyching himself up to fight. He even admitted he didn't know if he could do a THING to Buu before fighting, yet did anyway since he was thinking about Vegeta. That's why he was saying things like "You might not get a turn" after admitting to Vegeta he didn't know if he could actually do shit. It's a mask basically. So why would Vegeta make it harder on Goku by suggesting worse options to defeat Buu? It goes against his character development and makes no sense within the narrative. It's only consistent AND correct if Vegeta just doesn't think Gohan and Gotenks will cut it.

Vegeta says Goku at MAX POWER can kill Buu in an instant, and Goku doesn't disagree. He says that he was trying to do that the ENTIRE time. You aren't reading the panels.
And as for that scan you posted? Goku says he was acting cool BECAUSE of the fact that he didn't try to fuse.
Vegeta even realizes that Goku would of been fine with fusing in the first place. Goku didn't want to put that on Vegeta so he considered his feelings and backed out of doing it. That's why his dialogue is all over the place there. He's hyping himself up, but he wasn't really about this in the FIRST PLACE.
And did you seriously think that line from Goku was about him saying he could beat Kid Buu at full power? Tempest, he said that in the last panel. Use the CONTEXT!!
He's literally talking about FUSING.

Super Saiyan 3 is 2x stronger than Super Saiyan 2.

Wrong yet again. Super Saiyan 3 is 4x Super Saiyan 2.

You're telling me Goku went Super Saiyan 2, drained the **** out of his power, then massively held back.
You don't even make logical sense.
Not a single thing

Because Super Saiyan 3 is literally a form that draws out the full potential of the user. Goku being drained of Ki doesn't mean he can't hold BACK. Where did you even get that notion? And did you not realize one of the major points of this CRT was to say that maybe, just MAYBE Super Saiyan 3 is far stronger than we thought it was?
Goku was literally exhausted afterwards from using Super Saiyan 3 against Fat Buu and we STILL find out he could have won. You act like this is some defeater when it literally isn't. What even is your argument here? There is nothing here.

Never did I say he was wrong.
I said the manga holds priority.

Tempest. I don't know if you realize this or not, but those statements from Toriyama are literally talking about the manga he WROTE!!
So when we get new information on the powerscale, that is what we absolutely go with.
So you just CONCEDED that Toriyama is not wrong here which means you lose the argument and we need to go with the narrative and intent of the Author's work.
Not just discard it because you don't like it.
The manga holds priority, he WROTE the manga. Do you hear yourself?

Goku before he went in his body was confirmed by Buu to not be able to scratch him

Yet he literally did scratch him. He cut him in half with a destructo disk.
And who cares if Buutenks is stronger than Buu? Literally means nothing to the overall argument.
And cool, Buu is gloating, who would have thought?

and he went into SSJ3 right after and he said it means nothing.

Okay? Your point is what exactly?
Buu being cocky again? Nothing new. We don't know how that fight would have went down btw. But it doesn't matter.

You don't have a single sentence in the manga proving a point you made which is why your entire message has 1 hyperlink.

You want me to keep hyperlinking stuff when I already wrote down my arguments in the CRT? Maybe I wouldn't have to if you read it already.
And how much hyperlinking I have is not indicative of the quality of my arguments. Especially when I already made them with plenty of links.
You're the same guy who tried to deny Buu getting stronger from losing Heart when it's stated in front of you.

I proved every point of mine. You vomited a bunch of words.

You proved absolutely nothing. The only thing you proved is that you didn't read the manga or anything in this CRT.
What did you prove exactly?

Based on the fact that he says "when we get out of here", which would make no difference if he was the same strength.

And who says Goku knew they would get big again? Does leaving his body inherently mean they get bigger?
If so why?
And if you answer that, why would Goku assume as much?

Based on nothing at all

Based on the fact that Buu tells them they were weaker basically.
So yes, it's based on the word of the character who's body they are literally invading.

I'm not even gonna reply to all of this.
You have 3 hyperlinks, 1 of them regarding strength. Everything you've said in this message was headcanoned nonsense. You didn't prove a single point.

I'm not replying to word vomit. Tackle the points and prove them, I don't care about your deductions

Oh okay, so you're just gonna ignore my argument? You're gonna call Toriyama wrong?
You're basically admitting you can't counter my claims. And when I reply to you in depth, you brush it all aside because you have nothing but nitpicking and misunderstanding every piece of dialogue in the entire Buu Saga.

 

[KingTempest]

Staff can vote, I've said my piece and I"m not arguing with non-proven claims.

 

[Damage3245]

The source material supports what Toriyama says anyway. Given Kibito Kai states Buu was made weaker from having a heart and losing the heart he gained made him stronger.

Made him stronger than when he was Fat Buu. Not stronger than his peak as Super Buu's versions.

 

[TiltedFN]

Staff can vote, I've said my piece and I"m not arguing with non-proven claims.

Not a good look for you to blatantly ignore my arguments and admit you can't respond to them at all.
"Toriyama is wrong"
"Word salad"
I also like how you're talking about God Ki when it blatantly has nothing to with anything here. You made all of that up btw.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Made him stronger than when he was Fat Buu. Not stronger than his peak as Super Buu's versions.

You made that up. Fat Buu and Super Buu are the same being with their good and evil sides inverted. Kibito Kai makes the statement while we have Super Buu, not Fat Buu.

I'm honestly astonished by how staff can so boldly and confidently make these claims on the premise of...nothing.

 

[Damage3245]

You made that up. Fat Buu and Super Buu are the same being with their good and evil sides inverted. Kibito Kai makes the statement while we have Super Buu, not Fat Buu.

I'm honestly astonished by how staff can so boldly and confidently make these claims on the premise of...nothing.

Believe me, the feeling is mutual here when I see some of the claims made on here.

 

[TiltedFN]

Believe me, the feeling is mutual here when I see some of the claims made on here.

So did Toriyama not say Kid Buu was the most powerful Buu?
And Damage, what you said is based on nothing. You and Tempest don't understand the mechanics of Kid Buu's evolution whatsoever. Do I have to explain this to you again?

 

[Damage3245]

So did Toriyama not say Kid Buu was the most powerful Buu?
And Damage, what you said is based on nothing. You and Tempest don't understand the mechanics of Kid Buu's evolution whatsoever. Do I have to explain this to you again?

I don't need you to explain anything, I know what your thoughts are on the mechanics of Buu. What you need to understand is that not everyone is going to reach the same conclusion as you reading the same material.

You can believe whatever you want, of course. I'm just not convinced that your interpretations of certain scenes are the only correct interpretations.