The Most Troublesome Buu: Buu scaling revision

[CryoTheMayo]

I don't need you to explain anything, I know what your thoughts are on the mechanics of Buu. What you need to understand is that not everyone is going to reach the same conclusion as you reading the same material.

You can believe whatever you want, of course. I'm just not convinced that your interpretations of certain scenes are the only correct interpretations.

We have the author backing us and the source material itself backs what the author states. Your side has provided absolutely nothing to justify its interpretation.

If you want to die on the hill of "My interpretation trumps the original author" then I'd recommend dying on a better hill.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do not care if this gets deleted for "derailing", but this CRT is genuinely the embodiment of why VS Battles Wiki will never be truly accurate due to staff having so much power to the point of being capable of just gang up and gatekeep any revision they don't like away.

OP has given an overwhelming amount of evidence and research backing why Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku are the strongest characters in the Buu Saga besides Vegito, backed up from japanese raws, multiple guidebooks and interviews (from other writers too) and excellent counter arguments against all the points that are mainly from the Buuhan side.

However, all the staff's replies with is just regurgitated points, usage of the same mistranslations that OP is refuting, downright pretending to know more than Toriyama himself, to the point that calling it actual agenda like in those AgendaPiece memes is not even a reach. Like seriously, all I am seeing is the evidence handwaved by "still contradicted by the manga", "what the authors say doesn't matter" and other excuses.

And here I thought that this was supposed to be a debating place, not constant agendas backed by nothing but emotion and spams of the exact same points in the hope that the opponent will give up eventually.

 

[KingTempest]

Not a good look for you to blatantly ignore my arguments and admit you can't respond to them at all.
"Toriyama is wrong"
"Word salad"

Not once did I say "Toriyama is wrong", I said the manga triumphs.
I don't know when Dragon Ball became exempt to the common rules of the wiki but we have a standard of Manga triumphs all including any outside author statements or databooks unless there's good reason to consider them like a retcon or a correction.
To the point where people can say "oh yeah you said Toriyama is wrong" and somehow everybody falls in line when I said that our rules uphold.
The Daizenshuu, written by Toriyama, says Innocent Buu is equal to SSJ3 Goku. We gon use that in the scaling now since you said that Goku was holding back and could've easily nuked him?

You sent over a thousand words and sent 3 links, one of em was about people flying. You don't prove points you just tell me "what it is" and expect me to fall in line.

I also like how you're talking about God Ki when it blatantly has nothing to with anything here. You made all of that up btw.

Yeah I definitely made that up man. I definitely made up the entire point that Fat Innocent Buu was stated to be weaker than he was prior by literally everyone in this thread and the moment that he split up is when that dormant power funneled out, which is why Kid Buu gained much more strength and they note that it was Kid Buu who had the god power.

You made that up. Fat Buu and Super Buu are the same being with their good and evil sides inverted. Kibito Kai makes the statement while we have Super Buu, not Fat Buu.

Super Buu is blatantly stated to be stronger than Fat Buu what are we talking about.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not going to delete the post, but I don't want the thread to get derailed into a spiel of "the opposition are biased and ignoring the arguments."

It's not what is happening here.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

Honestly speaking is their anymore mods or admins that has given their votes on this crt so far as I remember one of the admins agreeing with this crt and another mod

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Super Buu is blatantly stated to be stronger than Fat Buu what are we talking about.

If I said "Super Saiyan Goku is just Goku using Super Saiyan" am I suddenly claiming Super Saiyan Goku isn't stronger than Base Goku? No? Then why would you assume that was what I said?

My point isn't 'Fat Buu = Super Buu' in power my point is that they are functionally the same being. Super Buu has a heart. Kibito Kai states having a heart made him weaker. We then see Super Buu revert to Kid Buu. Ergo Kid Buu grew stronger than Super Buu. This is what is deliberately told and shown to you by the author which is then backed by the author making repeated supporting claims.

 

[TiltedFN]

Not once did I say "Toriyama is wrong", I said the manga triumphs.

So you're saying Toriyama is wrong.
His word shapes the Narrative of his manga.
You literally just ARE calling him wrong.

I don't know when Dragon Ball became exempt to the common rules of the wiki but we have a standard of Manga triumphs all including any outside author statements or databooks unless there's good reason to consider them like a retcon or a correction.

What utter nonsense. Toriyama gives INFORMATION on what goes on in the manga.
If he states Kid Buu and Goku are the strongest, they are THE strongest.
And stop acting like we haven't provided any information on the matter.
We have a direct panel that directly backs up our arguments. And you've addressed none of them with concrete reasoning.

To the point where people can say "oh yeah you said Toriyama is wrong" and somehow everybody falls in line when I said that our rules uphold.

No rules are being broken here btw. WoG statements shape the very material we are reading.
So when you come in and call the author wrong about something that absolutely can be proven true in the work, that is dismissing him entirely.
You are directly saying the person who wrote the work doesn't know shit and he's just wrong.

The Daizenshuu, written by Toriyama, says Innocent Buu is equal to SSJ3 Goku.

The Daizenshuu was not written by Toriyama, but can be used as secondary sources for information if there are no contradictions.
In case of Fat Buu and Goku being equal? That's wrong.
But when we give direct proof of Kid Buu and Goku being the strongest which is backed up by the author, that has to be upheld.

We gon use that in the scaling now since you said that Goku was holding back and could've easily nuked him?

No since it's contradicted Tempest. I don't understand how this is so hard to understand.
Do you even know what guidebooks are used for? Genuinely.
And again, this is a direct statement from the AUTHOR and how he wanted his narrative to go.

You sent over a thousand words and sent 3 links, one of em was about people flying. You don't prove points you just tell me "what it is" and expect me to fall in line.

This is cope. I didn't send 3 links, I sent much more than that in the original premise. You'd know if you read it.

Yeah I definitely made that up man. I definitely made up the entire point that Fat Innocent Buu was stated to be weaker than he was prior by literally everyone in this thread and the moment that he split up is when that dormant power funneled out, which is why Kid Buu gained much more strength and they note that it was Kid Buu who had the god power.

You were talking about God Ki which has nothing to do with literally anything. We are talking about Heart and how it weakens Buu.
Kid Buu gained strength because he didn't have any sort of purity weakening him. That's said on panel. Doesn't matter what you say.

Super Buu is blatantly stated to be stronger than Fat Buu what are we talking about.

Super Buu is stronger but we don't know by how much.
Fat Buu and Super Buu are the same being but reversed basically. The only reason Buu can gain power from absorptions is because the good side is suppressed.
But he was NEVER able to do it all the way which is why Kid Buu is the strongest.
See? You don't even understand the source material.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

So you're saying Toriyama is wrong.
His word shapes the Narrative of his manga.
You literally just ARE calling him wrong.

What utter nonsense. Toriyama gives INFORMATION on what goes on in the manga.
If he states Kid Buu and Goku are the strongest, they are THE strongest.
And stop acting like we haven't provided any information on the matter.
We have a direct panel that directly backs up our arguments. And you've addressed none of them wit concrete reasoning.

No rules are being broken here btw. WoG statements shape the very material we are reading.
So when you come in and call the author wrong about something that absolutely can be proven true in the work, that is dismissing him entirely.
You are directly saying the person who wrote the work doesn't know shit and he's just wrong.

The Daizenshuu was not written by Toriyama, but can be used as secondary sources for information if there are no contradictions.
In case of Fat Buu and Goku being equal? That's wrong.
But when we give direct proof of Kid Buu and Goku being the strongest which is backed up by the author, that has to be upheld.

No since it's contradicted Tempest. I don't understand how this is so hard to understand.
Do you even know what guidebooks are used for? Genuinely.
And again, this is a direct statement from the AUTHOR and how he wanted his narrative to go.

This is cope. I didn't send 3 links, I sent much more than that in the original premise. You'd know if you read it.

You were talking about God Ki which has nothing to do with literally anything. We are talking about Heart and how it weakens Buu.
Kid Buu gained strength because he didn't have any sort of purity weakening him. That' said on panel. Doesn't matter what you say.

Super Buu is stronger but we don't know by how much.
Fat Buu and Super Buu are the same being but reversed basically. The only reason Buu can gain power from absorptions is because the good side is suppressed.
But he was NEVER able to do it all the way which is why Kid Buu is the strongest.
See? You don't even understand the source material.

Honestly how long will this crt go on for as damage and king have has their arguments disproven multiple times and ain't able to make an reasonable counter arguments?

There seems to be a leap in logic there. The OP says something about Buu receiving two power downs from two Kais and how that surpasses Buuhan for that reason alone. The number of power ups and downs doesn't decide which boost is greater. Super Saiyan is one boost, X50, while the next two forms are two boosts which add up to X8 between them. Unless I'm missing something that is a bit of an issue.

There's also something else: Goku needed to fuse with someone to fight Buuhan.

Random helper after reading both arguments proposed what are ur opinions now or if your available pls?

I mostly agree with Damage though I might want to mention that characters can get stronger when we least expect them due or Zenkai; or it is later revealed in Super Buu is another one of those characters similar to Beerus where then can just get mysteriously stronger for little to no reason. Goku in his SSJ2 form was evenly matched with Majin SSJ2 Vegeta back then, but it's possible the surprise punch that knocked out Goku prior to his fight with Fat Buu that he received a Zenkai from healing from Dende. Statements about Gotenks are also true, even before he got brutalized, his base form was at least as strong as Majin Vegeta, though training in RoSaT did power up to where in base he was stronger. It was also kind of overlooked that even before Gohan's transformation into Final/Ultimate Gohan, training with the Z Sword in hand made him grow significantly stronger. Goku also got a power up from training with it; still a stretch to even compare him to Final Gohan even with SSJ3, but there is indeed no full way to compare how much he grew compared to Gotenks.

But I ultimately do agree there is no proof of Kid Buu being the strongest Buu in combat PL as opposed to canon statements merely describing him as "More dangerous."

If you decide to respond after reading both sides and op counterarguments then pls give ur opinions now or when you can?

 

[Killerdrone123]

I really don’t understand the reasoning behind the whole “manga triumphs” stance. You do realize that it’s not always possible to cover every detail in the manga due to time constraints on the author. That’s likely why Toriyama clarified his position in interviews and guidebooks regarding which version of Buu is the strongest. We’re talking about the literal author who wrote the manga itself, so I don’t understand why his words are being sidelined like this.

Additionally, we have statements from DBZ Kai, which was said to be faithful to Toriyama’s original work, explicitly claiming that Kid Buu is the strongest Majin. That’s just my two cents on the situation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I really don’t understand the reasoning behind the whole “manga triumphs” stance. You do realize that it’s not always possible to cover every detail in the manga due to time constraints on the author. That’s likely why Toriyama clarified his position in interviews and guidebooks regarding which version of Buu is the strongest. We’re talking about the literal author who wrote the manga itself, so I don’t understand why his words are being sidelined like this.

We're also forgetting that Toriyama did not even want to make the Buu Saga in the first place, he just did whatever he had in mind first as long as it entertained him. So intended details missing from the actual work are bound to happen as Toriyama simply didn't bother to here.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Isn't there an interview stating that the strongest Majin Buu is the smallest one?

 

[KingTempest]

You don't know how to concise a damn message why do you pint a wall of text everytime you converse

So you're saying Toriyama is wrong.
His word shapes the Narrative of his manga.
You literally just ARE calling him wrong.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

What utter nonsense. Toriyama gives INFORMATION on what goes on in the manga.
If he states Kid Buu and Goku are the strongest, they are THE strongest.
And stop acting like we haven't provided any information on the matter.
We have a direct panel that directly backs up our arguments. And you've addressed none of them wit concrete reasoning.

I did with "The manga takes precedence. Here is what the manga says"
I tackled the thread's premise with a scaling chain of Buu, you selected what you wanted and disagreed, then you shoved wordsin my mouth.

No rules are being broken here btw. WoG statements shape the very material we are reading.
So when you come in and call the author wrong about something that absolutely can be proven true in the work, that is dismissing him entirely.
You are directly saying the person who wrote the work doesn't know shit and he's just wrong.

Your entire OP is based off of a

The Daizenshuu was not written by Toriyama, but can be used as secondary sources for information if there are no contradictions.
In case of Fat Buu and Goku being equal? That's wrong.
But when we give direct proof of Kid Buu and Goku being the strongest which is backed up by the author, that has to be upheld.

Toriyama is credited as the author on each daizenshuu and he approved them all. Regardless of if it's directly him speaking it's his approved work.

No since it's contradicted Tempest. I don't understand how this is so hard to understand.
Do you even know what guidebooks are used for? Genuinely.
And again, this is a direct statement from the AUTHOR and how he wanted his narrative to go.

Guidebooks are used in order to gain more information about the work that is either not stated in the original work or that is intended to expound on information from the work, usually from material approved by the creator.

This is a guidebook approved by the creator.

We use this guidebook for literally everything but the moment you disagree then this happens.

This is cope. I didn't send 3 links, I sent much more than that in the original premise. You'd know if you read it.

Did I say the original premise? No. I said your response. So please, stop putting words in my mouth and READ.

You were talking about God Ki which has nothing to do with literally anything. We are talking about Heart and how it weakens Buu.
Kid Buu gained strength because he didn't have any sort of purity weakening him. That' said on panel. Doesn't matter what you say.

You could argue the hair color of a bald man I swear.

Super Buu is stronger but we don't know by how much.
Fat Buu and Super Buu are the same being but reversed basically. The only reason Buu can gain power from absorptions is because the good side is suppressed.
But he was NEVER able to do it all the way which is why Kid Buu is the strongest.
See? You don't even understand the source material.

"But he was never able to do it all the way which is why Kid Buu is the strongest" based on? Nothing at all.
You have a habit of SENDING NO SCANS.

Your entire OP just said "you thought they were stronger than Goku? Wrong. You thought they were stronger than Goku? Wrong again! Toriyama said that smaller people are usually strong and here's a thousand databook statements that prove it!!!!!"

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

We're also forgetting that Toriyama did not even want to make the Buu Saga in the first place, he just did whatever he had in mind first as long as it entertained him. So intended details missing from the actual work are bound to happen as Toriyama simply didn't bother to here.

You know that actually explains an lot of things to be honest(which is also quite hilarious)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Isn't there an interview stating that the strongest Majin Buu is the smallest one?

Yeah

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Since I absolutely loathe the "Strongest Buu" topic and I'm gonna pass out from lack of sleep soon, I'll just say this for now at least

I still think Kid Buu>Buuhan is the more plausible stance here (and I'm saying this as a former Buuhan>Kid Buu stan). Considering all the guides, narrative and quotes from Toriyama himself, I think Kid Buu being the strongest is the intented outcome here. I'm really not fond of ignoring all this plethora of evidence.

Like at the absolute worst Kid Buu should be above Super Buu. I think the Spirit Bomb point especially proves this, considering how the Spirit Bomb made from Gohan's energy wasn't enough to kill Kid Buu (why would Goku even need to waste time to gather the energy of everyone on Earth if the Spirit Bomb made from Gohan's supposed superior power could already nuke Kid Buu). Plus the OP gives a solid explanation of the whole Goku vs Super Buu quote (pretty sure even a guide said Goku and Vegeta were weakened too)

The Toei anime also proves it too but I know the wiki's stance on that so I'll just keep my mouth shut

 

[KingTempest]

Agree: Vietthai, Qaw
Disagree: Damage, me, DDM, RandomHelper (Just asked a few questions and isn't solidly disagreeing)
Neutral:

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Yeah

So, i don't know how administrators and moderators are denying things, since the smallest is always the strongest according to Akira Toriyama.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So, i don't know how administrators and moderators are denying things, since the smallest is always the strongest according to Akira Toriyama.

We've got a very clear example of that too

 

[TiltedFN]

You don't know how to concise a damn message why do you pint a wall of text everytime you converse

Stop complaining about me responding to your nonsense dude.
Sorry that I have to repeat myself since you won't listen.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm not. You're saying Toriyama's word doesn't matter.
He's telling you who's the strongest and you brush it aside.
Idk dude, maybe stop saying the author is wrong?

I did with "The manga takes precedence. Here is what the manga says"
I tackled the thread's premise with a scaling chain of Buu, you selected what you wanted and disagreed, then you shoved wordsin my mouth.

A half assed scaling chain of Buu that I already dismantled? That means absolutely nothing here.
The manga takes precedence, and Toriyama commented on the specifics of events in his manga.
Therefore is word matters and should absolutely be used.

Your entire OP is based off of a

Off Author statements, narrative implications, a deep dive of lore, and more direct statements yes.
What's your argument again? "Toriyama's words don't matter" ah yes.

Toriyama is credited as the author on each daizenshuu and he approved them all. Regardless of if it's directly him speaking it's his approved work.

He factually didn't write the Daizenshuu. Do some damn research. He literally credits the people who did write them for doing a good job.
You need to stop spreading misinformation one every single sentence you type.

Guidebooks are used in order to gain more information about the work that is either not stated in the original work or that is intended to expound on information from the work, usually from material approved by the creator.

Yeah and they are secondary sources. So what do we do when something in the official material is directly contradicted?
We discard it. Does this happen with Kid Buu and Goku? Absolutely not.
Since we gave in universe explanations as well on this. And Toriyama absolutely meant to have Kid Buu and Goku be the strongest.
These words came straight from HIM, not the guidebooks. It isn't remotely the same thing.

This is a guidebook approved by the creator.

Yeah that wasn't written by him and is prone to contradictions. Anything else?

We use this guidebook for literally everything but the moment you disagree then this happens.

Nonsense. We have discarded things before that are explicitly contradicted.

Did I say the original premise? No. I said your response. So please, stop putting words in my mouth and READ.

And again, it's all in my original premise. You provided nothing new so there's no point in repeating myself and separately adding hyperlinks when they are already there. This just shows you didn't read anything.

You could argue the hair color of a bald man I swear.

Just cope from you unfortunately.

"But he was never able to do it all the way which is why Kid Buu is the strongest" based on? Nothing at all.

????
How about based on Buu LITERALLY being called PURE EVIL??
The 'PURE BUU'?? Tempest are you even trying anymore?
Okay then, prove Kid Buu is restricted by heart. Prove Super Buu has no Heart restriction. Please share with the class.

You have a habit of SENDING NO SCANS.

I've sent all the scans you could ever think of.

Your entire OP just said "you thought they were stronger than Goku? Wrong. You thought they were stronger than Goku? Wrong again! Toriyama said that smaller people are usually strong and here's a thousand databook statements that prove it!!!!!"

And Toriyama directly mentioned Kid Buu in that statement btw. Along with like 2 or 3 other statements from him confirming the exact same thing.
That's what you don't understand Tempest, everything backs Kid Buu, this isn't just one comment from Toriyama lmfao.
How many times does Toriyama have to say it before you stop calling him wrong?

 

[AmonInChains]

Yeah

Uhm, am I missing something about that Toriyama's statement?

I wanted to go against people's expectation that the strong ones always get stronger and bigger

Yeah, he is against showing that bad guys always turns STRONGER, so why is this being used as proof for Kid Buu becoming more powerful when it says the opposite? This statement doesn't work with Freeza/Goku since we already know that they become stronger as the series progresses. The only one who can fall into that statement comparing those 3 ones mentioned is uhh... Buu.

 

[TiltedFN]

Uhm, am I missing something about that Toriyama's statement?

Yeah, he is against showing that bad guys always turns STRONGER, so why is this being used as proof for Kid Buu becoming more powerful when it says the opposite? This statement doesn't work with Freeza/Goku since we already know that they become stronger as the series progresses. The only one who can fall into that statement comparing those 3 ones mentioned is uhh... Buu.

The most powerful Frieza was small compared to his bigger forms. Perfect Cell was smaller compared to his second form. I'm pretty sure Vegeta even states this. And Kid Buu was the smallest form and he was the most powerful. That statement directly applies to him btw.
And don't leave out the two other statements from Toriyama blatantly saying Majin Buu got stronger until the very end. And how making a final villain weaker wouldn't satisfy the readers.

Also did you misinterpret his statement? He says that the expectation is that the villains strong villains always get stronger and bigger. And he is directly answering a question on why the smaller villains are the most powerful in his story. The expectation here is that they will get bigger, but Toriyama went against that.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Things are heated here, so can everyone calm down a bit, please?

I think it's pretty obvious Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. Goku and Gohan outright dismissed Buu as no threat after Gotenks defused inside him. Some people theorise that Piccolo somehow weakened Buu thus making Buuccolo actually weaker than Super Buu, which I don't think is likely at all.

Otherwise I'm not sure.

 

[KingTempest]

I think it's pretty obvious Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. Goku and Gohan outright dismissed Buu as no threat after Gotenks defused inside him. Some people theorise that Piccolo somehow weakened Buu thus making Buuccolo actually weaker than Super Buu, which I don't think is likely at all.

This is because the power of Gotenks made it so that Gohan couldn't beat him, but when Gotenks deformed Gohan gained the power gap again
Goku was confident in Gohan's power, he had nothing scaling him to that Buu

 

[TiltedFN]

Things are heated here, so can everyone calm down a bit, please?

I think it's pretty obvious Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu.

I mean yeah, he literally has to be since his power wasn't restricted. Buu's power started rising relative to Super Buu so that's just a fact.

Goku and Gohan outright dismissed Buu as no threat after Gotenks defused inside him.

I also made this argument, yeah.

Some people theorise that Piccolo somehow weakened Buu thus making Buuccolo actually weaker than Super Buu, which I don't think is likely at all.

Yeah that isn't true in the slightest.

Otherwise I'm not sure.

I mean we have several author statements that call Goku and Kid Buu the absolutely strongest in the manga. That was clearly supposed to be his narrative intent which evidence can also be provided in the story. So I don't think it's right just to dismiss that. Kid Buu also took a Super Spirit Bomb and pushed it back when it had everyone's energy, including Gohan.

 

[KingTempest]

What is the significance of him pushing back the spirit bomb? We know it's stronger than him, it obliterated him.
All it means is that he was stronger than the force of Goku pushing it at him, not that he cliffs the whole damn spirit bomb

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

Things are heated here, so can everyone calm down a bit, please?

Honestly why do dragon balls usually become like this bruh

I think it's pretty obvious Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. Goku and Gohan outright dismissed Buu as no threat after Gotenks defused inside him. Some people theorise that Piccolo somehow weakened Buu thus making Buuccolo actually weaker than Super Buu, which I don't think is likely at all.

Otherwise I'm not sure.

So basically u agree with kid buy being stronger then super buu abd is unsure on everything else?
Also thank you for answering again after everyone put down their arguments.

 

[TiltedFN]

What is the significance of him pushing back the spirit bomb? We know it's stronger than him, it obliterated him.

Maybe because it's an insane feat? Goku had to amplify it with his full power and slam it into him.
Kid Buu pushing back the spirit bomb clearly scales to him in some capacity. It had the energy of the entire earth, the Z fighters, otherworld, AND Namek.
That spirit bomb was far superior to Gohan and it wasn't close at all.
Do you not remember how Frieza jobbed to it and couldn't stop it despite Goku not putting any extra power into it?

All it means is that he was stronger than the force of Goku pushing it at him, not that he cliffs the whole damn spirit bomb

No, he scales to it since he would have pushed it back entirely.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

What is the significance of him pushing back the spirit bomb? We know it's stronger than him, it obliterated him.
All it means is that he was stronger than the force of Goku pushing it at him, not that he cliffs the whole damn spirit bomb

Well, the Genki-Dama had energy from everyone, including Gohan, Android 17, and several other characters, as well as the entire universe, but it still couldn't even scratch Kid Buu, and he was pushing back. If it weren't for Goku's energy restoration, he wouldn't have won even with the energy from Gohan and the other characters...

 

[KingTempest]

Maybe because it's an insane feat? Goku had to amplify it with his full power and slam it into him.
Kid Buu pushing back the spirit bomb clearly scales to him in some capacity. It had the energy of the entire earth, the Z fighters, otherworld, AND Namek.
That spirit bomb was far superior to Gohan and it wasn't close at all.
Do you not remember how Frieza jobbed to it and couldn't stop it despite Goku not putting any extra power into it?

Cause it takes a certain amount of strength to repel a spirit bomb, it doesn't mean that you are scaling to the energy.

It's like playing tug of war with a big battery. You need strength to push the battery but you don't scale to its energy output.

No one is saying it's not a good feat. I'm saying why are we using pushing the spirit bomb as a way to scale it above everyone who charged the spirit bomb, when the spirit bomb KILLED THEM

No, he scales to it since he would have pushed it back entirely.

How does he scale to it when it TURNED HIM INTO ASHES

 

[Random-Helper323]

I mean yeah, he literally has to be since his power wasn't restricted. Buu's power started rising relative to Super Buu so that's just a fact.

I'm just saying the focus should be on Buuhan, not Super Buu.

Kid Buu also took a Super Spirit Bomb and pushed it back when it had everyone's energy, including Gohan.

Buuhan is way above Gohan though. Being above Gohan isn't enough.

This is because the power of Gotenks made it so that Gohan couldn't beat him, but when Gotenks deformed Gohan gained the power gap again
Goku was confident in Gohan's power, he had nothing scaling him to that Buu

Goku did fight Buutenks for a short time, but he did it by fighting defensively and didn't seem to just be able to beat him. I don't know about Goku compared to Gohan, but the narrative definitely seemed to be that Buuhan and Buutenks were stronger than both.

 

[TiltedFN]

Cause it takes a certain amount of strength to repel a spirit bomb, it doesn't mean that you are scaling to the energy.

So the person pushing back the spirit bomb scales to? Thanks for pointing out the obvious?
We know if a Spirit Bomb is strong enough to overpower you, you won't be able to stop it whatsoever.

It's like playing tug of war with a big battery. You need strength to push the battery but you don't scale to its energy output.

Wrong since Frieza ate shit against it no matter how hard he tried to push it. We directly know what happens if it's massively stronger than you are.
Just headcanon from your part. Kid Buu would have to be pushing against extra force AND the power of the spirit bomb. Yeah he for sure scales.

No one is saying it's not a good feat. I'm saying why are we using pushing the spirit bomb as a way to scale it above everyone who charged the spirit bomb, when the spirit bomb KILLED THEM

Maybe because it scales MASSIVELY above them and we know what happens if the attack is much stronger than the user?

How does he scale to it when it TURNED HIM INTO ASHES

Because Goku added extra power to it and Kid Buu couldn't defend against it any longer.

 

[Damage3245]

Goku did fight Buutenks for a short time, but he did it by fighting defensively and didn't seem to just be able to beat him. I don't know about Goku compared to Gohan, but the narrative definitely seemed to be that Buuhan and Buutenks were stronger than both.

In the manga Buutenks and Goku didn't fight at all (if you don't count Goku slicing him in half with a Destruco Disk). Just in the anime they fought where Buutenks overwhelmed Goku significantly.

 

[AmonInChains]

The most powerful Frieza was small compared to his bigger forms. Perfect Cell was smaller compared to his second form. I'm pretty sure Vegeta even states this. And Kid Buu was the smallest form and he was the most powerful. That statement directly applies to him btw.

That's not what it's saying here tho. It explctly states that the bad guys don't become stronger and bigger, it says the complete opposite for both cases.

Also did you misinterpret his statement? He says that the expectation is that the villains strong villains always get stronger and bigger. And he is directly answering a question on why the smaller villains are the most powerful in his story. The expectation here is that they will get bigger, but Toriyama went against that.

I'm not talking about the other statements, I'm talking about this one specifically. However, if we follow the logic you're suggesting, the statement either says there's two options:

1) Kid Buu didn't get stronger
2) Simply inconsistent in what it's trying to say

But as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't imply at any point that Kid Buu became more powerful.

 

[TiltedFN]

I'm just saying the focus should be on Buuhan, not Super Buu.

I mean that's what we have been doing dude. I've been arguing Kid Buu is above Buuhan since this started.
He just is stronger since he's not restricted by any Heart anymore. All versions of Super Buu just are.

Buuhan is way above Gohan though. Being above Gohan isn't enough.

I'm not saying the spirit bomb is only above Gohan. It's massively above him. The Spirit Bomb is likely the strongest attack in the entire original manga that we've seen.

Goku did fight Buutenks for a short time, but he did it by fighting defensively and didn't seem to just be able to beat him.

That was the anime. They never fought in the manga.

I don't know about Goku compared to Gohan, but the narrative definitely seemed to be that Buuhan and Buutenks were stronger than both.

Okay based on what exactly? We are told that Kid Buu is the most troublesome and it's directly attributed to his power not being restricted anymore. All versions of Super Buu have Heart. Kid Buu does not. He's pure evil incarnate like he's supposed to be. Are you also going to address Toriyama confirming Kid Buu is the strongest version as well?

 

[Random-Helper323]

In the manga Buutenks and Goku didn't fight at all (if you don't count Goku slicing him in half with a Destruco Disk). Just in the anime they fought where Buutenks overwhelmed Goku significantly.

Are you sure? I'm sure I've read manga panels where Goku was backflipping to dodge Buutenks' attacks. It's been years though.

 

[KingTempest]

Goku did fight Buutenks for a short time, but he did it by fighting defensively and didn't seem to just be able to beat him. I don't know about Goku compared to Gohan, but the narrative definitely seemed to be that Buuhan and Buutenks were stronger than both.

He never really did fight buutenks in the manga. he cut him in half with the destructo disc and that was it
The moment buutenks rushed goku, gohan caught the potora, they both froze, and he defused
Goku never punched a single buu except fat buu and kid buu

Every staff PLEASE reread the manga. The manga info ≠ the anime info.

 

[Damage3245]

Are you sure? I'm sure I've read manga panels where Goku was backflipping to dodge Buutenks' attacks. It's been years though.

I reread the manga recently and I don't believe that happened. There is a brief scene where Buutenks rushes at Goku and he defensively goes to Super Saiyan 3 with a worried look on his face, but the fight is interrupted by Gotenks defusing inside Buu.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay based on what exactly?

Goku needed to fuse to fight Buuhan and was desperate enough to consider fusion with Hercule. He also only needed to use Super Saiyan to win using the Spirit Bomb at the end.

We are told that Kid Buu is the most troublesome and it's directly attributed to his power not being restricted anymore. All versions of Super Buu have Heart. Kid Buu does not. He's pure evil incarnate like he's supposed to be.

Super Buu also had three powerful characters as boosters though.

Are you also going to address Toriyama confirming Kid Buu is the strongest version as well?

Can you calm down a bit?

Those statements are the entire evidence here, so I'll take a look at them.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

snip

In the statement itself Toriyama doesn't contradict the interviewer's claim that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. He simply responded that he liked going against the expectations of 'bigger' = 'stronger'. This is highlighted by him also responding to the examples of Kid Goku being stronger than most of his opponents (who were all bigger than him) and Freeza (who became smaller and weaker looking with his final form).

It's pretty clear Toriyama's statement is that 'bigger = stronger' is what he liked subverting. And he says that in response to the examples of Kid Goku, Final Form Freeza and Kid Buu. With the obvious intent being 'the smaller one is the strongest'. He even has Vegeta comment on Kid Buu's size and judge his power based off that, just to have it instantly subverted when they realise how powerful Kid Buu actually is.

If Toriyama disagreed with what the interviewer stated or wanted to elaborate on his claim to exclude Kid Buu as an example he would have. But he didn't. Simple.

 

[TiltedFN]

Can you calm down a bit?

Those statements are the entire evidence here, so I'll take a look at them.

I wasn't trying to sound aggressive here. And those aren't all the evidence but they are pretty major.
It more so has to do with what 'Evil' entails and how it affects Majin Buu's power. Evil is directly attributed to power as well as 'Heart'.
Since Kid Buu has the least amount of Heart, it skyrocketed his power when all the absorptions with Heart were removed. That's directly why he's called the most troublesome. They can hand in hand with each other. So Kid Buu being the strongest is not only backed up by the author multiple times, but we have an in universe explanation as to why. It seems your problem here would be the scaling chain which I also did go over. I'd recommend looking at Infinite's post as well.