The Most Troublesome Buu: Buu scaling revision

[Infinite9Luck]

These scans are ass.

Half of it was Vegeta just saying "yeah Goku you're the best". He wasn't even alive to see Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks.

You are wrong again. I do not know why you are so confident and keep spreading misinformation in this thread, but Vegeta does not need to be alive, because he was watching Majin Buu fight from the afterlife. It doesn't even matter because Toriyama already said for him the Number 1 is the strongest.

Him not holding back is just headcanon.

It is not headcanon; it is explicitly stated by him. You keeping calling it headcanon does not change the facts.

Strongest warrior is just bad hype.

Just calling something “bad hype” is not a rebuttal.

"The always pure strongest in the universe" There were many periods in time where he wasn't the strongest warrior in the universe, including Cell Saga where he was never the number one.

The “Number 1” narrative is something specific to the Buu Saga, and Toriyama correlates the two. Again, that is a poor rebuttal and not a contradiction. Toriyama correlates being Number 1 with being the strongest in the universe.

Getting a scan directly talking about the genkidama that says "Is Goku the strongest" then saying "it's not talking about the genkidama" is horrible

Just calling it horrible is not a rebuttal. That is basically all you did for most of this post.

"Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest" what????

Can you actually try to make an argument? I am having a hard time debating you.

Let’s do this: make a full post countering every argument, so I can give a proper debunk.

Because right now you are not really countering anything, and this is more of a waste of time than an actual debate at this point.

"But is the most powerful warrior who possesses unworldly strength" regarding while he's fighting someone stronger than him

Exactly... you are not saying anything. He is not about fighting anyone; you just did not watch Daima.

This is the narrator introducing Goku, yet again, so you are wrong.

These are TERRIBLE

This first one is still a conversation to be had but whatever
Some of the scans you used didn't even say strongest majin, it jusst says that the villain is stronger than the previous villain

Thanks to prove my point

You sent a scan with Buu, Cell, Frieza, and Vegeta. That isn't talking about forms that's talking about cliffing other villains

No, it is not. It is showing each villain of each saga, and it calls Pure Buu the strongest Majin, so I do not really know what you are even trying to say.

 

[Damage3245]

It is not headcanon; it is explicitly stated by him. You keeping calling it headcanon does not change the facts.

"Headcanon" may be the wrong term, but I think we can both agree that the statement is not as direct as "I was holding back" from Goku. What he says is that he could've beaten Fat Buu, but he didn't. It's not the case that the only reason why a character wouldn't beat another character when they could is because they were holding back on their strength or power. Goku decided to stop fighting on his own; he had fulfilled his role as a distraction and he wanted to let the next generation have a go at it. If he had simply continued fighting Buu then Goku could've fought to defeat Buu within the time that he had left but that doesn't mean he was intentionally weakening himself in the earlier part of the fight. Unless there's something in the raws that I'm unaware of where he states "I could've beat Buu earlier but I was lowering my power to drag out the fight."

The “Number 1” narrative is something specific to the Buu Saga, and Toriyama correlates the two. Again, that is a poor rebuttal and not a contradiction. Toriyama correlates being Number 1 with being the strongest in the universe.

Wouldn't the strongest in the Universe be Vegito?

 

[OrangeFR]

Wouldn't the strongest in the Universe be Vegito?

Not when he doesn’t exist at that point in time. (I mean like as a physical being, not that Toriyama forgot about him or he said that before Vegito existed)

 

[Mbpoops]

Wouldn't the strongest in the Universe be Vegito?

i mean yea but vegito technically isnt his own person (he cant exist without goku + vegeta + potara) so they just might not count him

 

[KingTempest]

i dont think him being alive here matters when ssj3 was revealed after he died and he watched goku turn ssj3 which is a big reason why he didnt want to fuse

This doesn't matter

The only individuals that he was alive to tell the power for were the versions of buu who would body goku, and goku.
He didn't see any other fighters. He is not a good measurement of strength

i mean yea but vegito technically isnt his own person (he cant exist without goku + vegeta + potara) so they just might not count him

Literally every version of buu except for kid buu fits in the exact same bracket

Not when he doesn’t exist at that point in time. (I mean like as a physical being, not that Toriyama forgot about him or he said that before Vegito existed)

Everyone else at that point in time was dead so who is it saying? Goku is stronger than vegeta, buu, and that's it?

 

[Damage3245]

Not when he doesn’t exist at that point in time. (I mean like as a physical being, not that Toriyama forgot about him or he said that before Vegito existed)

I mean, Buuhan doesn't exist either at that point in time too...

 

[Mbpoops]

I mean, Buuhan doesn't exist either at that point in time too...

thats also why they probably just dont count buuhan when they say "kid buu is the strongest" or something along the lines of that

 

[Infinite9Luck]

"Headcanon" may be the wrong term, but I think we can both agree that the statement is not as direct as "I was holding back" from Goku. What he says is that he could've beaten Fat Buu, but he didn't. It's not the case that the only reason why a character wouldn't beat another character when they could is because they were holding back on their strength or power. Goku decided to stop fighting on his own; he had fulfilled his role as a distraction and he wanted to let the next generation have a go at it. If he had simply continued fighting Buu then Goku could've fought to defeat Buu within the time that he had left but that doesn't mean he was intentionally weakening himself in the earlier part of the fight. Unless there's something in the raws that I'm unaware of where he states "I could've beat Buu earlier but I was lowering my power to drag out the fight."

Goku said he could have beaten him back then, meaning he purposely avoided to defeat him. And to Beat Majin Buu you need to decelty stronger to be fair.

Also, honestly, beside you and @KingTempest, every moderator, admin and 99% users agree that Kid Buu is at least > Super Buu, hence this already prove Goku dialogues is true, and he was indeed just not going all out.

So I respect your idea, but unless you have more stuff to say, I'm not even gonna debate anymore this point.

Wouldn't the strongest in the Universe be Vegito?

Yes, it would, but Vegetto is just a fusion involving Goku himself.

At least to me, it is pretty obvious that when these comparisons and statements are made, they are not taking that into account.

For example, even in current DBS, there are statements calling Gohan, Broly, or Goku the strongest warrior. But unless a fusion actually appears, no one is going to assume, “Gohan cannot be the strongest because hypothetically Gogeta exists.”

 

[Mbpoops]

For example, even in current DBS, there are statements calling Gohan, Broly, or Goku the strongest warrior. But unless a fusion actually appears, no one is going to assume, “Gohan cannot be the strongest because hypothetically Gogeta exists.”

couldnt we assume the same thing for kid buu and buuhan then? buu's aborbsion is an ability its not like he can just tap into buuhan whenever he wants

 

[OrangeFR]

I mean, Buuhan doesn't exist either at that point in time too...

shit

 

[Infinite9Luck]

couldnt we assume the same thing for kid buu and buuhan then? buu's aborbsion is an ability its not like he can just tap into buuhan whenever he wants

It does not matter, because the source, the scans, and even Buu himself place him above the other Majins, he place himself above Super Buu as strongest Majin at that moment. Buu is still Buu when he absorbs others, so those statements absolutely still count.

Vegetto is not Goku; he is Vegetto.

I mean, Buuhan doesn't exist either at that point in time too...

The scan I posted for Goku, does indeed in fact not put him above Buhan, just above Gohan. Because they are both alive and the end of the saga.

 

[Gp972]

I have this scans: https://ibb.co/album/Z1Zkmn

The scans are from the guides and from DBS. In DBS, Vegeta recognizes Goku as the strongest Saiyan, and the guides do as well. In DBZ, Goku is declared one of the two strongest warriors in the universe for fusing.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The more the discussion progresses, the more obvious it is that Buuhan > Kid Buu > Super Buu is the better, more consistent, conclusion here. I'm personally running with the Buuhan agenda.

 

[Mbpoops]

Buuhan should be the strongest i mean goku even said they should be able to take kid buu on but buutenks was someone him and gohan couldnt defeat without fusion

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[CryoTheMayo]

Buuhan should be the strongest i mean goku even said they should be able to take kid buu on but buutenks was someone him and gohan couldnt defeat without fusion

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Nah, that's a bad scan to use as evidence. The context is them underestimating Buu based on his appearance then instantly being shocked by his power. Vegeta even later states Kid Buu's strength is beyond what he imagined.

 

[Mbpoops]

Nah, that's a bad scan to use as evidence. The context is them underestimating Buu based on his appearance then instantly being shocked by his power. Vegeta even later states Kid Buu's strength is beyond what he imagined.

Fair enough i just find it weird the guys who can sense ki thought buu being small means hes weak (they are shorter than most of the antagonists)

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Fair enough i just find it weird the guys who can sense ki thought buu being small means hes weak (they are shorter than most of the antagonists)

As outlined in the OP, it is stated by Toriyama that Buu's power is difficult to gauge.

 

[TiltedFN]

"Goku intentially not killing Buu instantly doesn't have to mean he is holding back"
"Vegeta doesn't know of Ultimate Gohan" just pure misinformation left and right.
Vegeta knows of Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan since he was literally watching the entire time from the otherworld btw. Goku intentionally holding back against an opponent he could beat at any time is not something vague. It absolutely means he's holding back. This thread has amounted to the opposition playing the semantics game for every single scan that disproves them. And beyond that, DBS literally confirms multiple times what we've been saying about Kid Buu's strength. Dende outright states Kid Buu is the most powerful which puts him above Super Buu at the absolute bare minimum. As we've gone over already, Goku at the start of Super in his mental training was fighting his strongest enemies, and the version of Buu he imagines is Kid Buu. This is all blatant as hell. Kid Buu is verbatim stated to be the strongest.

 

[Damage3245]

And beyond that, DBS literally confirms multiple times what we've been saying about Kid Buu's strength. Dende outright states Kid Buu is the most powerful which puts him above Super Buu at the absolute bare minimum.

You can understand why I'm a bit wary of that statement when by the point that Dende says it Goku has fought against Beerus, Golden Frieza, Hit, Zamasu, etc. Dende would surely be wrong in saying that Buu is the most powerful enemy that Goku has ever faced, if you believe his wording to just be for raw power alone.

 

[TiltedFN]

You can understand why I'm a bit wary of that statement when by the point that Dende says it Goku has fought against Beerus, Golden Frieza, Hit, Zamasu, etc.

Come on Damage, I think we can both agree it's talking about that specific time period. Like just blatantly lmao.

EDIT: Mind you, Dende literally witnessed Buuhan up and close and SAW him transform into Kid Buu btw.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

You can understand why I'm a bit wary of that statement when by the point that Dende says it Goku has fought against Beerus, Golden Frieza, Hit, Zamasu, etc. Dende would surely be wrong in saying that Buu is the most powerful enemy that Goku has ever faced, if you believe his wording to just be for raw power alone.

The raw text makes it clear he is referring to the past. That Kid Buu was 'once' the most powerful opponent Goku had faced. Here is the raw scan with extracted text as well as screenshots of an LLM translation. You can try and verify it for yourself with other translation tools and human translators if you wish.

 

[KingTempest]

As we've gone over already, Goku at the start of Super in his mental training was fighting his strongest enemies, and the version of Buu he imagines is Kid Buu. This is all blatant as hell. Kid Buu is verbatim stated to be the strongest.

"Strongest enemies", this is never stated #1, this is every serious final boss he's fought that actually pushed him. He would've fought Android 19 for all that since he's fought so many individuals stronger than the likes of Frieza.
#2
He fought Frieza. Frieza is fodder to him. And he fought him in his 50% form, not his super buff 100% full power state.
He fought Perfect Cell, not Super Perfect Cell and he witnessed SPC from the afterlife.

Also, image training is based on imagining the capabilities and combat style of an individual.
Goku never watched in person how the other forms of Buu fought save for Fat Buu. He actually physically fought and felt the hits and measured the pattern of Kid Buu in a 1v1. He is the best subject.

Please understand. We disagree with the scaling, but out disagreeal doesn't imply that we want it on the profiles however way see fit. There are good arguments for it that we disagree with and there are bad ones. This is a bad one.

 

[TiltedFN]

"Strongest enemies", this is never stated #1,

It's literally shown on PANEL to you how Goku is facing the strongest enemies he's gone up against from their respective arcs. This is not hard to understand. It's cope.

this is every serious final boss he's fought that actually pushed him. He would've fought Android 19 for all that since he's fought so many individuals stronger than the likes of Frieza.
#2

Was Android 19 his strongest enemy in that entire arc Tempest? Do you think Android 19>>Cell??

He fought Frieza. Frieza is fodder to him.

Frieza was his past strongest enemy in the Namek Saga.

And he fought him in his 50% form, not his super buff 100% full power state.

That 'form' is just Freeza going full power in his Final Form. Which Goku envisions Freeza as using. Notably the manga never depicts the 100% state anywhere. Even when Freeza has Frost go full power and exhaust his energy like in the anime. Which would indicate Toyotaro, for whatever reason, simply has zero interest in depicting that bulked up full power. Similarly Roshi never uses his full power 'form' in the manga either. He remains skinny the entire Tournament of Power. Even in the RoF flashback Roshi is skinny.

Point being, even when Toyotaro shows members of Freeza's race goes full power he doesn't bulk them up. And when he has Roshi going all out in fights he doesn't have him bulk up, even in a RoF flashback where he fought in only his bulked state. This is even when Toyotaro explicitly tells readers to watch the RoF movie to learn what happens. Granted, in the promotional manga for the RoF film he does at least show a bulked up Roshi there.

Regardless it can simply be explained as either:

1) Goku is taking his 're-run' seriously so he isn't allowing Freeza to go full power like before.​

2) Toyotaro simply doesn't depict Freeza's race as bulking up when using their full power. Could be preference. Could be something else. But he clearly has a preference against it when he consciously depicts Frost as not bulking up at full power, unlike the anime.​

​

EDIT: Additionally, an Interval Special breaking down forms in the manga continuity doesn't distinguish Full Power as a separate form from Final Form Freeza.

Post from Cryo debunking that entire point. 100 percent Frieza isn't a FORM by the way.

He fought Perfect Cell, not Super Perfect Cell and he witnessed SPC from the afterlife.

Prove he didn't fight Super Perfect Cell. He knows how strong he is since he literally sensed him and guided Gohan through the fight.
Not to mention he compared his power to that of Dabura so Goku MUST know. Anything else?

Also, image training is based on imagining the capabilities and combat style of an individual.

And the POWER. We've seen characters do this multiple times to predict how fights would actually go against said enemy. And if they KNOW their power + fighting style, it's all considered in the mental state since they EXPERIENCED it. "Oh yeah it includes everything BUT power". Nonsense.

Goku never watched in person how the other forms of Buu fought.

He sensed their power and witnessed them up close. He saw Buutenks and Super Buu fight while WATCHING them from Elder Kai's crystal ball, he WAS Vegito so that means he inherently knows the capabilities of Buuhan.
So he knows the Buu's fighting styles, techniques, and overall POWER. Yet who does he imagine? Super Buu? Fat Buu? Buuteks? Evil Buu? No.
He imagines Kid Buu. That inherently means he is the greatest challenge and the one that would increase his strength if he kept fighting him over and over again. It is not up for debate.

He actually physically fought and felt the hits and measured the pattern of Kid Buu in a 1v1. He is the best subject.

Prove that's the only way he HAS to know the strength of someone else is by physically feeling their punches.
Experiences are a thing you know. You're just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Goku can see and feel the way others fight, the way their Ki feelsl; how powerful it is.
You coming along to claim that mental image training includes everything else but power is baseless.

Please understand. We disagree with the scaling, but out disagreeal doesn't imply that we want it on the profiles however way see fit.

It's not even that we just disagree with the scaling. Your understanding of Dragon Ball is quite flawed. We've had to outright correct you on basic concepts and story beats MULTIPLE times and it's getting tiring.

There are good arguments for it that we disagree with and there are bad ones. This is a bad one.

I disagree with that. You don't have an answer for Dende, Toriyama, or the mental image training.

EDIT: Tempest, you are the same person who said Vegeta doesn't know of Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks when he literally witnessed EVERYTHING from the moment Goku went Super Saiyan 3. He saw Gotenks, he saw all the Buu's, Vegeta literally witnessed everything up until Buutenks. So he's seen Gohan as well. I don't know how you can confidently claim these things if you've read the manga at least recently.

As for the image training thing? We LITERALLY have characters predicting outcomes based on the power of their opponent they have experienced. We see it with Gohan and Goku imagining Krillin fighting the Trio De Danger in Dragon Ball Super. Trunks image trains against Goku Black. Gohan and Krillin do it on their way to Namek. How can you POSSIBLY begin to claim it wouldn't include power. It evidently DOES. So where is your evidence Tempest? Where are these claims even coming from in the first place?

So I want your answer to this. Where is Super Buu? Where is Fat Buu? Where is Evil Buu? Where is Buuhan? Where is Buutenks? Why are they just suddenly not present? Why would Goku imagine weaker opponents to fight against when the purpose of doing this is to get stronger? Are you going to talk about the Dende statement being yet another confirmation of Kid Buu's superiority? You have consistently brushed off every single piece of evidence in replace of playing the semantics game with every scan in existence that places Kid Buu above, which mind you, is in the vast majority.

• Toriyama statements.
• Nearly every guidebook statement or officially licensed material in existence.
• The literal original manga calls Kid Buu the most troublesome enemy and attributes it to power.
• The Dragon Ball Super manga refers to Kid Buu as the strongest on multiple occasions.

When will it ever be enough to just accept that this was the narrative intent? That basically every single shred of evidence points in the favor of Kid Buu being the strongest? Kid Buu being above Super Buu at the very least. You literally have nothing for me that hasn't already been explained to you already.

 

[KingTempest]

It's literally shown on PANEL to you how Goku is facing the strongest enemies he's gone up against from their respective arcs. This is not hard to understand. It's cope.

It is headcanon. Just say "he fought people" not "he specifically fought the strongest individuals per arc"

Was Android 19 his strongest enemy in that entire arc Tempest? Do you think Android 19>>Cell??

Frieza was his past strongest enemy in the Namek Saga.

You think Goku measures people through Arcs? Why ain't he fight Vegeta again?
Also you do realize in DB canon the cell arc and the android arcs are different arcs right?

Post from Cryo debunking that entire point.

The debunk wasn't even accurate. It doesn't tell him to use that form in the manga.
In the anime they blatantly make sure he can do that transformation. In the manga it's not proven he can.
Plus, he didn't go full power in the damn panel.
After Cryo's statement From Frieza's, Frost was stated by Vegeta to be going "full power" and Toyotaro note the difference between his "final transformation" and his "full power" through the aura around Frost. When he gets tired the aura is gone. If they wanted to show it for Goku, they'd show it through the aura, which is why they showed the same aura for Frost.

Also, you really think Toyotaro isn't going to draw a BUFF FORM of a fighter??? Like seriously?

100 percent Frieza isn't a FORM by the way.

Why does it matter?
You kept talking about how these are the "strongest enemies" and you were giving headcanoned scenarios and explanations as to why they came in the forms they did. Why wouldn't they be at their pinnacle of strength? Why is Buu the only one in his strongest state but these guys are suppressed?

Prove he didn't fight Super Perfect Cell. He knows how strong is since he literally sensed him and guided Gohan through the fight.
Not to mention he compared his power to that of Dabura so Goku MUST know. Anything else?

...?
There's no lightning around the Cell he's fighting.
We see lightning when SSJ2 is shown in the manga so we know that that'd be the case if he was fighting SPC.

Your word vomit makes it hard to engage you aren't even tackling what I'm saying.

And the POWER. We've seen characters do this multiple times to predict how fights would actually go against said enemy. And if they KNOW their power + fighting style, it's all considered in the mental state since they EXPERIENCED it. "Oh yeah it includes everything BUT power". Nonsense.

He sensed their power and witnessed them up close. He saw Buutenks fight, he WAS Vegito so that means he inherently knows the capabilities of Buuhan.

Prove that's the only way he HAS to know the strength of someone else is by physically feeling their punches.
Experiences are a thing you know. You're just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

What are you even yapping about.

The point is that experiencing someone fight is far. different than seeing it and deducing how their fighting would work regarding you.

It's not even that we just disagree with the scaling. Your understanding of Dragon Ball is quite flawed. We've had to outright correct you on basic concepts and story beats MULTIPLE times and it's getting tiring.

No you just throw headcanons in faces and tell us to take it.

I disagree with that. You don't have an answer for Dende, Toriyama, or the mental image training.

Dende just said Buu was his strongest foe. That is true. That means nothing for the form deduction.
Toriyama is contradicted by the manga but you clearly don't care.
The mental image training isn't even an ARGUMENT it's literally goku training against overtime enemies and you're taking it as a powerscaling conversation.

I'm genuinely tired of this "pull arguments out my ass and say people don't know basic concepts" shit

 

[Mbpoops]

It is headcanon. Just say "he fought people" not "he specifically fought the strongest individuals per arc"

You think Goku measures people through Arcs?

Its not far fetched for goku to image train by progressively fighting enemies from the past in chronological order especially if the manga portrays it like that

Why ain't he fight Vegeta again?

Because vegeta is alive and he can fight him whenever

Also you do realize in DB canon the cell arc and the android arcs are different arcs right?

Tbf goku was unconcious for 99% of the arc so him not fighting android 19 isnt that important

 

[CryoTheMayo]

It is headcanon. Just say "he fought people" not "he specifically fought the strongest individuals per arc"

You think Goku measures people through Arcs? Why ain't he fight Vegeta again?
Also you do realize in DB canon the cell arc and the android arcs are different arcs right

Toyotaro is using Goku's training as a narrative tool to summarise the events of the original manga. By showing him fight the ultimate foes from each major arc. Freeza. Cell. Buu. This is insanely obvious.

The debunk wasn't even accurate. It doesn't tell him to use that form in the manga.
In the anime they blatantly make sure he can do that transformation. In the manga it's not proven he can.
Plus, he didn't go full power in the damn panel.
After Cryo's statement From Frieza's, Frost was stated by Vegeta to be going "full power" and Toyotaro note the difference between his "final transformation" and his "full power" through the aura around Frost. When he gets tired the aura is gone. If they wanted to show it for Goku, they'd show it through the aura, which is why they showed the same aura for Frost.

Also, you really think Toyotaro isn't going to draw a BUFF FORM of a fighter??? Like seriously?

You couldn't even define a counterpoint here beyond basic incredulity. The simple fact is that Frost is never depicted as bulking up in his full power state. Toyotaro also never does this for Hit. And as I pointed out Roshi never bulks up when using his full power either. If your evidence is 'aura' then I don't know what to say for you. Given Frost doesn't even have an aura for about half of the time he's fighting. Goku also never depicts any of the characters he spars against with an aura. Does this suddenly mean Goku isn't envisioning them at full power at all? Why?

Why does it matter?
You kept talking about how these are the "strongest enemies" and you were giving headcanoned scenarios and explanations as to why they came in the forms they did. Why wouldn't they be at their pinnacle of strength? Why is Buu the only one in his strongest state but these guys are suppressed?

...?
There's no lightning around the Cell he's fighting.
We see lightning when SSJ2 is shown in the manga so we know that that'd be the case if he was fighting SPC.

This is utter nonsense. You point out Freeza lacking an aura in the image training then assert Super Perfect Cell would have lightning around his body. When Cell himself doesn't have lightning around his body for most of the time he's in the manga.

Your word vomit makes it hard to engage you aren't even tackling what I'm saying.

What are you even yapping about.

Hypocrisy.

The point is that experiencing someone fight is far. different than seeing it and deducing how their fighting would work regarding you.

And Dragon Ball doesn't care what you think. The characters can simulate other characters after just watching them. Vegeta watched most of the Buu Saga. Goku also watched Gotenks vs Super Buu, Gohan vs Super Buu and even a good bit of Gohan vs Buutenks.

No you just throw headcanons in faces and tell us to take it.

Tilted has consistently provided scans and argumentation. I haven't seen you provided a shred of evidence worth a damn this entire thread. If anyone is constructing 'headcanon' here it's you with your bizarre attachment to the existing scaling chain on the premise of absolutely zero evidence.

Dende just said Buu was his strongest foe. That is true. That means nothing for the form deduction.
Toriyama is contradicted by the manga but you clearly don't care.

1) The raw text of Dende's statement makes it very clear he is referring to overall power and Dende calls him the most powerful opponent that Goku had once faced.
2) No one cares about your ridiculous headcanon. The manga backs Toriyama's claims and Toriyama is the author. His word trumps yours.

The mental image training isn't even an ARGUMENT it's literally goku training against overtime enemies and you're taking it as a powerscaling conversation.

It is an argument. Because the same manga calls Kid Buu the strongest Buu. Starts off by showing a flashback to Kid Buu while saying he was the 'most powerful opponent' and shows Goku choosing to fight Kid Buu in his simulation while leaving the outcome open-ended. If you cannot grasp the authorial intent that's on you.

I'm genuinely tired of this "pull arguments out my ass and say people don't know basic concepts" shit

Because you clearly don't know basic concepts, or at least you act obtuse enough to give off that impression. And, again, pot calling the kettle black. You have done nothing but construct headcanon after headcanon after headcanon out of a desperate attempt to reject this CRT. Yet you can't show a shred of evidence to justify your nonsensical interpretation. All you can do is try to invalidate the authority of the original author, damn near every guidebook in existence and even the manga itself which depicts Kid Buu as holding back the Spirit Bomb, powered by Ultimate Gohan and billions of other people where Freeza could not, and Kibito Kai, the closest thing to an authority on Majin Buu, very clearly very coherently stating Kid Buu became stronger because he has no heart.

Now how about we end this pointless back and forth and get Random and Nierre to clarify their stances so we can finish this thread once and for all.

 

[KingTempest]

Toyotaro is using Goku's training as a narrative tool to summarise the events of the original manga. By showing him fight the ultimate foes from each major arc. Freeza. Cell. Buu. This is insanely obvious.

You couldn't even define a counterpoint here beyond basic incredulity. The simple fact is that Frost is never depicted as bulking up in his full power state. Toyotaro also never does this for Hit. And as I pointed out Roshi never bulks up when using his full power either. If your evidence is 'aura' then I don't know what to say for you. Given Frost doesn't even have an aura for about half of the time he's fighting. Goku also never depicts any of the characters he spars against with an aura. Does this suddenly mean Goku isn't envisioning them at full power at all? Why?

Sir.
Are you actually alright?

My entire point is that Frieza has shown this form in the original manga, Frost himself has not shown it, we can not assume that he has shown it.

This is utter nonsense. You point out Freeza lacking an aura in the image training then assert Super Perfect Cell would have lightning around his body. When Cell himself doesn't have lightning around his body for most of the time he's in the manga.

Hypocrisy.

I swear.

Yall come in this thread, lie in my face, then demean me repeatedly and insult my intelligence.

"When Cell himself doesn't have lightning around his body for most of the time he's in the manga".

The lightning is part of his natural aura. From the moment Super Perfect Cell arrived from the dead, he had lightning on in every panel. EVERY SINGLE PANEL HE WAS IN he's had the lightning.
The only time he doesn't have the lightning is during the kamehameha when he focused all his aura into the beam, which is akin to why gohan, who has ssj2 lightning, loses it when he charges the kamehameha.

If you want to say i'm wrong, fine. Do not insult me then lie in my damn face.

And Dragon Ball doesn't care what you think. The characters can simulate other characters after just watching them. Vegeta watched most of the Buu Saga. Goku also watched Gotenks vs Super Buu, Gohan vs Super Buu and even a good bit of Gohan vs Buutenks.

Nobody, not a soul, said that you cannot simulate other characters after watching them. I literally explained that it is possible, but it is EASIER and more PRACTICAL doing so for people you've ACTUALLY FOUGHT.

Yall type paragraphs that yall expect the world to read but then you can't READ A SINGLE DAMN MESSAGE I SAY and it's frustrating trying to evaluate and be neutral WHEN EVERYTHING I SAY GETS IGNORED.

I said it is easier imagining the capabilities of individuals YOU HAVE FOUGHT versus doing it with people you haven't seen.

Real life people who play sports or fight watch a lot of game film, but when they are shown with the actual players live the difficulty in measuring capabilities is shown and is very evident.

Like what the hell is the problem.

Tilted has consistently provided scans and argumentation. I haven't seen you provided a shred of evidence worth a damn this entire thread. If anyone is constructing 'headcanon' here it's you with your bizarre attachment to the existing scaling chain on the premise of absolutely zero evidence.

1) The raw text of Dende's statement makes it very clear he is referring to overall power and Dende calls him the most powerful opponent that Goku had once faced.
2) No one cares about your ridiculous headcanon. The manga backs Toriyama's claims and Toriyama is the author. His word trumps yours.

It is an argument. Because the same manga calls Kid Buu the strongest Buu. Starts off by showing a flashback to Kid Buu while saying he was the 'most powerful opponent' and shows Goku choosing to fight Kid Buu in his simulation while leaving the outcome open-ended. If you cannot grasp the authorial intent that's on you.

Because you clearly don't know basic concepts, or at least you act obtuse enough to give off that impression. And, again, pot calling the kettle black. You have done nothing but construct headcanon after headcanon after headcanon out of a desperate attempt to reject this CRT. Yet you can't show a shred of evidence to justify your nonsensical interpretation. All you can do is try to invalidate the authority of the original author, damn near every guidebook in existence and even the manga itself which depicts Kid Buu as holding back the Spirit Bomb, powered by Ultimate Gohan and billions of other people where Freeza could not, and Kibito Kai, the closest thing to an authority on Majin Buu, very clearly very coherently stating Kid Buu became stronger because he has no heart.

I can count every single link he has sent since I started speaking on my 1 hand.

You don't read shit I'm saying, and it's very frustrating trying to argue with people I know can read that I've seen read that CAN'T when it's time to argue with me.

I said that it's saying Buu is the strongest enemy he's fought. But Majin Buu's varying forms are not different people. The uniform entity of buu is one being, so that entire arc, when they say "majin buu", they're referring to everything he's done, not just KID BUU. You don't even read what the hell I'm saying.

I am not saying "Buu isn't actually the strongest foe", I'm saying "Buu being the strongest isn't saying that Kid Buu > the other versions of Buu, but Buu as an entity > every other individual".
Like I said
"Dende just said Buu was his strongest foe. That is true. That means nothing for the form deduction."

I blatantly agreed, you looked at my agreeal, then skimmed over it. Illiteracy.

The same manga calls Buutenks the strongest Buu. The same manga calls Buuhan the strongest Buu afterwards.

I have done nothing but bring arguments with links. My first message was a message full of links analyzing the manga showcasing absolutely everything the manga has given us but you one track minded assholes have instead used it to say "he knows nothing"

Now how about we end this pointless back and forth and get Random and Nierre to clarify their stances so we can finish this thread once and for all.

Pointless back and forth my ass. Go ahead and continue heckle staff to agree with the "buu agenda" bullshit.
Arguing with people who don't even read but they hold high horses. I told this mf "Buu is the strongest but it's not saying Kid Buu" and this buffoon looked at my argument and said "it's clearly referring to power" NO SHIT.

I'm done here.
@Random-Helper323 @Nierre yall can evaluate whatever yall need to. I have given my points already. If yall want me to formulate a full argument then let me know, but if not then I'm not gonna engage with my intelligence being insulted by people who can't read basic points.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yall come in this thread, lie in my face, then demean me repeatedly and insult my intelligence.

"When Cell himself doesn't have lightning around his body for most of the time he's in the manga".

The lightning is part of his natural aura. From the moment Super Perfect Cell arrived from the dead, he had lightning on in every panel. EVERY SINGLE PANEL HE WAS IN he's had the lightning.
The only time he doesn't have the lightning is during the kamehameha when he focused all his aura into the beam, which is akin to why gohan, who has ssj2 lightning, loses it when he charges the kamehameha.

If you want to say i'm wrong, fine. Do not insult me then lie in my damn face.

Shifting the goalpost.
You were shown times where he doesn't have the aura around him yet you just shift it to, "oh well he was charging so it doesn't count".
If you want to make the point of "his lightning is part of his natural aura" then you have to concede that the claim of Cell not being Super Perfect for whatever reason is false since Cell isn't using his aura in that panel. SS2 Gohan didn't have lightning here either with his fight against Dabura. Neither does Goku here when he goes SS2.
Toyotaro doesn't depict lightning going away while charging or firing off attacks so that isn't a defeater since it's not some rule that actually exist. Gohan was also charging and had lightning. All headcanon from you. At least back up your claims with consistent evidence dude.

You also ignored how Goku KNOWS Cell's power since he is able to compare it to that of Dabura. How Goku literally guided Gohan through the final battle and knows Cell was able to put up a fight against Gohan. So he can imagine Cell's strength which is all he needs for image training. So he would be imagining Cell at his absolute best. You have nothing to disprove this.

Nobody, not a soul, said that you cannot simulate other characters after watching them. I literally explained that it is possible, but it is EASIER and more PRACTICAL doing so for people you've ACTUALLY FOUGHT.

Literally means nothing, Tempest. Image training works and has shown to be effective either way. You can't just claim one is easier and more practical without zero evidence and then dismiss the other. It doesn't work like that. And it sure as hell doesn't work like that in the story either. Gohan and Krillin have never actually fought each other before, yet they are able to image train. Krillin loses that fight. Goku and Gohan as I showed you are able to imagine Krillin fighting the trio de danger based off what they experienced with Krillin's power. Prove it being "easier and more practical" means that power isn't being taken into account.

Yall type paragraphs that yall expect the world to read but then you can't READ A SINGLE DAMN MESSAGE I SAY and it's frustrating trying to evaluate and be neutral WHEN EVERYTHING I SAY GETS IGNORED.

Ironic considering how I've provided evidence with every claim I made yet you can't even put in the effort to address everything with solid proof.
Multiple times have you said to me that I haven't provided links for the claims I've made when I've done so the entire time. We can't read? Yet you have blatantly missed out on several story beats that we've had to explain many times?

I said it is easier imagining the capabilities of individuals YOU HAVE FOUGHT versus doing it with people you haven't seen.

Prove that it's easier please. Where's the proof to back up that claim? Does it have any effect on how they imagine the actual power level of opponents?
How does Goku watching the battle and feeling their power level no prove validity to the proposition of it being accurate?
Better yet, how does this debunk Goku imagining the strongest foes he's ever sensed, witnessed and fought against and being used for image training to better himself?

Real life people who play sports or fight watch a lot of game film, but when they are shown with the actual players live the difficulty in measuring capabilities is shown and is very evident.

Just not the same thing as Saiyans being able to study opponents moves, sense power, and fight in their mind going over simulations. Holy non sequitur and false equivalence.

Like what the hell is the problem.

The problem is that you are not properly addressing everything.
Your arguments have been based on mostly headcanon and conjecture.

I can count every single link he has sent since I started speaking on my 1 hand.

I've posted plenty of links compared to you so this is extremely disingenuous.
Meanwhile I can look at your post and find the amount of links and evidence extremely lacking compared to the amount of wild claims you've made.

You don't read shit I'm saying, and it's very frustrating trying to argue with people I know can read that I've seen read that CAN'T when it's time to argue with me.

Yeah, sure.

I said that it's saying Buu is the strongest enemy he's fought. But Majin Buu's varying forms are not different people.

Uub literally clarifies that it's the Evil Buu that got reincarnated who is the strongest enemy they've face. It is very specific.
They put emphasis on the power part. Or else it wouldn't have been mentioned at all. Instead, the narrative and every source in existence goes out of it's way to claim that Kid Buu's power is the mightiest.

The uniform entity of buu is one being, so that entire arc, when they say "majin buu", they're referring to everything he's done, not just KID BUU.

You haven't proven that Tempest. That's just your personal headcanon.
Dende straight up says the "Evil Version of Majin Buu". That's Kid Buu dude. Idk what else to tell you here. It straight up tells us.

You don't even read what the hell I'm saying.

You don't read what the manga tells you.

I am not saying "Buu isn't actually the strongest foe", I'm saying "Buu being the strongest isn't saying that Kid Buu > the other versions of Buu, but Buu as an entity > every other individual".

Which is based on what exactly?
When the dialogue goes out of it's way to tell us which Buu Dende is referring to, which one Goku fought, the reincarnation cycle along with Uub, it's telling us exactly that. Not just Majin Buu overall. There is a clear distinction.
And isn't it funny how it lines up with literally everything else we've been saying?

Like I said
"Dende just said Buu was his strongest foe. That is true. That means nothing for the form deduction."

And like what's been said. We know which Buu is being talked about.

I blatantly agreed, you looked at my agreeal, then skimmed over it. Illiteracy.

Look at you, straight up calling people illiterate and then you want to complain? Insane to me.

The same manga calls Buutenks the strongest Buu. The same manga calls Buuhan the strongest Buu afterwards.

The same manga that says Kid Buu is the strongest, the most troublesome, attributing it to power alone that he regained after last absorptions.
The same manga that has Kid Buu push back the strongest attack in the original manga.
The same manga that shows us how every single version of Buu is restricted by Heart the entire time.
The same manga that has the literal author confirm Kid Buu's superiority.
The same manga that has countless statements that call Kid Buu the strongest over Buuhan.

I have done nothing but bring arguments with links.

Just straight up not true. You claimed many things that weren't true as I pointed out already.

Tempest, you are the same person who said Vegeta doesn't know of Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks when he literally witnessed EVERYTHING from the moment Goku went Super Saiyan 3. He saw Gotenks, he saw all the Buu's, Vegeta literally witnessed everything up until Buutenks. So he's seen Gohan as well. I don't know how you can confidently claim these things if you've read the manga at least recently.

You act like we haven't provided arguments for everything that's been posted.

My first message was a message full of links analyzing the manga showcasing absolutely everything the manga has given us but you one track minded assholes have instead used it to say "he knows nothing"

Your early messages disregarded everything and you proceeded to not address any of my arguments and listed your own scaling chain that didn't even make any sense.

Pointless back and forth my ass. Go ahead and continue heckle staff to agree with the "buu agenda" bullshit.

ffs
Insane how you're acting now that your arguments got put under heavy scrutiny.

Arguing with people who don't even read but they hold high horses. I told this mf "Buu is the strongest but it's not saying Kid Buu" and this buffoon looked at my argument and said "it's clearly referring to power" NO SHIT.

Classy. Anyways.
You didn't actually prove that claim so what is there even to argue against here? You didn't even admit you're wrong about them not witnissing these fights like you said. Just brushed past it for some reason. Regardless.
Dende refers to Kid Buu and calls him the strongest. That simple. So again:

DBS manga statements, author statements, nearly all official licensed material goes for Kid Buu, the manga goes for Kid Buu, etc.
I still haven't seen much of anything from you proving otherwise. You tried to prove your arguments with 'Aura' for frost even though it has to do with nothing.
But sure, we can wait for those Neutral to comment again.

Random-Helper hasn't come back yet, and I'm not sure what Nierres stance is at this point either.
But it's clear to me there is a massive amount of evidence for Kid Buu>Buuhan and Kid Buu>Super Buu at the minimum.

 

[KingTempest]

i read for 20 seconds and you showed that you didn't comprehend a single thing i said.

that's so fun.

i'm done.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

SS2 Gohan didn't have lightning here either with his fight against Dabura.

Gohan was in regular SSJ against Dabura pretty sure

 

[Sus]

least heated dragon ball discussion

 

[TiltedFN]

Gohan was in regular SSJ against Dabura pretty sure

Has literally no reason to be in regular Super Saiyan. He literally showed Super Saiyan 2 to Kibito prior.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Has literally no reason to be in regular Super Saiyan. He literally showed Super Saiyan 2 to Kibito prior.

Lastly, Gohan could not become a Super Saiyan 2 after the match with Kibito, or at the very least chose not to.

First off, Gohan does not look the part of a Super Saiyan 2. Toriyama is a pretty consistent guy in regards to his artwork. During the match with Kibito, Gohan was drawn with his typical serious face, ultra-spiky hair, golden -- this is very important -- energy, and bio-electric aura. When Goku and Vegeta battle each other as ascended Super Saiyans, they are consistently drawn with those features throughout the entire fight, even when they are not actively battling each other. And, when Vegeta transforms during the final battle against Kid Buu, he also exhibits these features. On the contrary, Gohan, along with the rest of the standard Super Saiyan users (i.e., Goku, Vegeta, Goten and Trunks, Gotenks, Vegito) exhibit the standard Super Saiyan traits when they transform:

• Moderately floaty and spiky hair
• Blue eyes
• Typical aura; as in, without electricity
• And, white energy

The color of the aura of a Super Saiyan in the manga is white, both in the original publications and the Full Color. When they power up to unleash a Super Attack or something of that caliber, their aura becomes golden, but in any other case, it is pure white - it looks nice.

And, guess what-

"What about his bangs? They looked differently during the fight with Dabura than they usually do as a Super Saiyan." His hair does this weird thing where his front-most bang warps from what it was at the beginning of the story to what it looked like when he was a Super Saiyan 2, so this counter is moot.

Second off, Gohan, in-universe, is incapable of becoming a Super Saiyan 2 during that battle -- he cannot get it to stand.

Goku tells Gohan to get angry and bring out all the power he has, reminding him of his fight with Cell and how he would be unstoppable if he did so. Gohan was angry in his previous fight with Dabura, and everybody could see that. So, why would he tell him that if he were to get angry like he did in the Cell Games, he would unstoppable? If Gohan truly were already a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, then this comment would be irrelevant. Later during his second encounter with Dabura, Gohan remembers Goku's words but then states that he is not angry enough to become what he was in the Cell Games, a Super Saiyan 2. One of you might be quick to add that, "This is referencing the fact that he is not as strong as he was before".

What?

Goku tells Gohan to get angry again in hopes that he would become a Super Saiyan 2 and clean house. Gohan states that he cannot get as angry as he did against Cell and thus, cannot become a Super Saiyan 2 again; consequently, he cannot become strong enough to destroy the opposition. And, remember, even if he only had a fraction of his power as a Super Saiyan 2, he could still wipe them, considering the difference between him and Super Perfect Cell even with less than half of his full power available. This has nothing to do with his Super Saiyan 2 being weaker than before. He just cannot transform.

On top of that, at that time, the idea of being able to use all of his power in general against Buu was a hypothetical/best case scenario to Gohan, and he did not even consider trying to use Super Saiyan 2 to draw the Z-Sword out of the ground -- white energy and standard aura.

He did not choose to attempt to use Super Saiyan 2 -- he knew his efforts would be useless.
He could not use Super Saiyan 2.
He was not in Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

Lastly, and I cannot believe I completely overlooked this until I was finished writing this post, but Gohan was rational and had a clear mind during his fight with Dabura and afterwards. If you all remember, in Super Saiyan 2, Gohan reverted to the savage and irrational ways of an ordinary Super Saiyan, as he was consumed by wrath and malice. He and Goku overcame this emotional turmoil as Super Saiyans, but Gohan has yet to actually control Super Saiyan 2 like that. He was arrogant, snarky, and overly cruel as opposed to his typical pacifistic nature. Here, Gohan was just writing to defend his people, and he was nothing like his preteen self against Cell.

Every single game (From Dokkan to Raging Blast 2) also has it as regular SSJ Gohan.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Gohan was in regular SSJ against Dabura pretty sure

SSJ2 Gohan has one bang. Regular SSJ has two bangs.

 

[TiltedFN]

Every single game (From Dokkan to Raging Blast 2) also has it as regular SSJ Gohan.

Incorrect. And literally none of your links work for me. As it's already been pointed out, Gohan has 1 bang instead of two. And you didn't answer my question. Why would Gohan be holding himself back when he was clearly not doing the best in that fight? He was being ridiculed by Vegeta and was obviously shown having a hard time. Why would Gohan hold back an entire transformation when he just used it??

And I hope you know Gohan getting angry just brings out more power. Not that he couldn't go Super Saiyan 2. You completely misunderstood what Goku was trying to get across to Gohan. He's able to go Super Saiyan 2 just because Kibito asked him but not against the literal enemy in front of him? This is all just conjecture and headcanon simply because Toriyama didn't draw the lightning.

 

[KingTempest]

Gohan has 1 bang in SSJ2 as a highschooler.

 

[KingTempest]

SSJ2 Gohan has one bang. Regular SSJ has two bangs.

I must be blind, where does regular SSJ showcase 2 bangs?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

SSJ2 Gohan has one bang. Regular SSJ has two bangs.

Ain't really consistent, it seems.

(We know he hadn't transformed into a SSJ2 here because the gauge that Spopovitch and Yam were using to analyze battle powers didn't register a huge spike, and Kibito, despite having been right there when Gohan transformed, reacted in shock to Gohan's transformation in front of him later)

Why would Gohan be holding himself back when he was clearly not doing the best in that fight? He was being ridiculed by Vegeta and was obviously shown having a hard time. Why would Gohan hold back an entire transformation when he just used it??

It seems that he couldn't bring himself to get angry enough to use it for combat purposes, perhaps fearing that if he did, he'd get arrogant again or something

Don't think we can ignore all the supplementary material also saying it is SSJ1, like literally everything.
Think BT3 outright says he doesn't go SSJ2 after the Kabito thing too.

 

[TiltedFN]

It seems that he couldn't bring himself to get angry enough to use it in combat purposes, perhaps fearing that if he did, he'd get arrogant again or something

He didn't need to be that angry. He used against Kibito no problem. We KNOW rage brings greater strength. He can be a Super Saiyan 2 and get rage amps. SS2 Gohan was ALSO enraged the entire time. Goku is saying for Gohan to do it again and get stronger. We KNOW he can transform. It's never said he has a problem going into Super Saiyan 2. And it sure as hell makes no sense for it not to be against Dabura of all people.

Don't think we can ignore all the supplementary material also saying it is SSJ1, like literally everything.
Think BT3 even outright says he doesn't go SSJ2 aside than against Kabito.

Then BT3 is literally wrong, since he literally DOES. Gohan tells Kibito he's going BEYOND a Super Saiyan. So it's something he can and has done before his fight against any actual strong opponents. Anyways, this is literally derailment. I already told you Goku wasn't shown with lightning either his first time. It doesn't hurt the point I was making. This is useless conversation.

 

[Robo432343]

Dragon Ball Kanzenban Official Guide: Dragon Ball Forever states that Buu got weaker upon having Good Buu removed from him, and also states that Super Buu (Gohan Absorbed) is the strongest Majin.

Became weaker because the absorptions were undone.

Even the strongest Majin cannot reach him!

Daizenshuu 2 Story Guide states that Buu's power rose enormously in comparison to the original Fat Buu after his transformation into Super Buu.

The TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu databook states that Super Buu with Gohan absorbed is so powerful that Goku is no match even as a Super Saiyan 3. This same databook makes it clear that Super Buu actually knows about Buu's other existences instead of using that, 'I won't become me anymore!' scan.

That power is so great that Goku alone cannot match it, even when he transforms into Super Saiyan 3.

Daizenshuu 2 Story Guide states that Goku's Super Saiyan 3 can fight evenly with even Majin Buu.

One of V-Jump's magazine scans for the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga claims that, after absorbing Gohan, Super Buu gained power on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

V-Jump noted that for Super Buu's unique forms in the Budokai games, absorbing Yamcha and Tien made him weaker, absorbing Frieza or Cell kept his power the same, and absorbing Vegeta increased his power - though not by as much as his Gotenks or Gohan absorptions.

El Manga Legendario states that compared to the other forms of Majin Buu, Kid Buu is the most violent but not so strong, and Gotenks and Gohan would have been able to defeat him. People have problems with using this but its just more proof to stop relying on these guidebook statements.

Daizenshuu 7 explicitly portrays Kid Buu as weaker than the huge Buu, stating that it's only after he absorbed the Grand Supreme Kai's gentle soul that he was tamed and his power was weakened.

He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened. Afterwards he was sealed away by Bibidi, and many centuries passed. In the year Age 774, his seal was broken by Bibidi's son Babidi, and he was once again resurrected as a fearsome majin. Though he befriended Mister Satan for a time, afterwards he changed into an evil Buu. This evil Buu powered up by successively absorbing Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan. In his battle against Vegetto, the good portion inside him was cut off, and he transformed into his original form, the pure Buu. In the end, he was annihilated by a Super Genki-dama collected from the ki of all humanity. Meanwhile, the good Buu came to live with Mister Satan, and changed his name to Mister Buu.

And yeah this is referring to Buff Buu because he was the one who absorbed Grand Kaioshin in the first place. The process of absorbing Grand Kaioshin weakened Buff Buu. You can say Buff Buu was turned into Fat Buu whose weaker than Buff Buu however, one thing that a lot of people forgot to take into account was that Fat Buu in his fight against Goku was not at his true maximum power either and it was heavily implied that he was not. Goku admitted to Vegeta that he could have defeated Fat Buu but he just chose not to, yes, but that Fat Buu was not at his full power. Fat Buu in a higher power state was when Mr. Satan got shot, titled, 'Result of Buu's Anger' or, 'That Which is Brought Forth By Anger'.

BECAUSE OF THE INCREDIBLE ANGER THAT BUU FELT, THE EVIL INSIDE OF HIM GREW GREATLY, IT BECAME ANOTHER BUU; IN OTHER WORDS, THEY SEPERATED INTO EVIL BUU AND IN-NOCENT BUU...

Satan is shot. Majin Buu's anger peaks. From Majin Buu, an evil Majin Buu is born. The evil Majin Buu eats the good Majin Buu and powers up. - Daizenshuu 2

Majin Boo's history
Separation of good and evil! (Pure Evil Boo)
The evil part of Buu popped out of him in fury.

Evil absorbs good! (Evil Boo)
The evil Buu, which has taken in the good one, is much more powerful than before the separation! - Daizenshuu Forever Guidebook

Anger or the result of anger from Buu is a clear power up and Goku did not fight this type of enraged Buu. Super Saiyan 3 Goku fought a Buu who wasn't even powered up while he was. Furthermore, in the fight, Fat Buu was just playing around with Goku and not really trying at all. True, Goku isn't going all out either, he was trying to buy time but Goku was still losing a good amount of energy even with that. He punches Buu back and forth, blasts Buu with a kamehamehameha but Buu is not hurt by this at all and used very little energy and effort. Meanwhile, Goku's stamina was getting completely drained to Fat Buu playing around. Just with this small fight that Super Saiyan 3 Goku has with Buu, Goku used up so much energy to such a degree that he shows up at a later place and gets told that he only has 30 minutes of time left. Goku said that he could have beaten Fat Buu with super saiyan 3 when they met but the truth is Goku was making these assumptions as he doesn't have much information on Buu by this point in time. Goku has never seen a full power Buu before when he made that claim. So the claim that Goku is stronger than Fat Buu which op made is wrong.

All of this and yet the anime-related Dragon Book Z Vol. 7 states that Kid Buu is the Buu with the greatest power. The Shonen Jump Anniversary states Kid Buu is the strongest Majin. Like what???

Update: Infinite said that there is much more evidence that he posted apart from the Daizenshuu/Guidebook statements and those are the Toriyama author statements. But i have recently found out that even the Toriyama statements have problems:

Series creator Akira Toriyama was once asked if he liked to portray the smallest and youngest looking to be the strongest to appeal to the kids. The interview used “young Goku”, “Frieza, and Majin Buu in their final forms” as examples. And Toriyama responds by saying he wanted to go against the conventional idea that the strong ones always get stronger and bigger.


So did Toriyama indirectly agree to the interviewer’s idea that Kid Buu is the strongest amongst the Buus?

Not really. Toriyama did not explicitly state here that he agrees with the interviewer’s examples. He just remarked that he tried to switch between telling a straightforward story and an unconventional one.


Also, young Goku isn’t the strongest of all the Gokus, so to speak. He clearly got stronger as he got older and bigger so the example used by the interviewer is actually wrong. Plus, Frieza in his 1st form is actually smaller than his final form. So the notion of “smaller is always stronger” is incorrect.

But the Kid Buu apologists counter-argue by saying “No! Toriyama himself said that Majin Buu gets stronger and stronger as he transforms! A direct confirmation from the creator himself!”

What they’re referring to is Toriyama’s comment on Dragon Ball Kai’s running of the Majin Buu arc which goes as follows:

"The final opponent of Dragon Ball‘s weekly serialization is Majin Boo. He’s round! He’s formidable! And, he’s tenacious! It’s a string of battles intense enough for even me, the person writing the comic, to get sick of, and which, now that I’m an old man, I can never draw again. Gohan’s funny everyday life in the first half, and the fierce back-and-forth battles of the second half. Check out both sides, which keep transforming to become stronger and stronger, and the Genki-Dama at the end."


Toriyama is referring to the Anime release and not the original Manga. Dragon Ball Kai aired the Majin Buu arc from 2014, which gives plenty of time for Toriyama to forget what he’d written many years ago. He would have probably asked the Anime staff to draft the comment for him and later approved it without thinking too much. So again, the Manga’s words reign supreme.

He also uses another guidebook scan to prove that Buuhan is 'on par' with SS3 Goku but in another thread when the scan was released, it was concluded that a guidebook scan like this is complete horse shit

So Buuhan is on par with SSJ3 Goku?

Remember the time when I found many magazines, databooks, guidebooks, statements, daizenshuu, and interviews stating that Kid Buu is the most powerful Buu? Well, I found another one stating that Super Buu (Gohan Absorbed) is equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku. What gives?! Also credit to Herms for the...

vsbattles.com

Moving on, the manga has statements of Kid Buu being the most dangerous or troublesome. DBS has the statement of Majin Buu being the mightiest of all the time. However for that one, the narrator does not actually specify which form of Majin Buu it was. You can say that he's obviously referring to Kid Buu because we see him destroying the Earth but the problem with that is that it was actually Super Buu (Fat Buu absorbed) which brought them to their extinction. It is far more likely that Majin Buu as a whole, as a concept, is being referred to compared to characters like Cell or Frieza. I like how the DBS scan also states Buu is the mightiest of all time but we know that is not true. In comparison, the manga has a statement of Super Buu stating that he has become stronger than ever but that turned out be a mistranslation. People also argue Goku and Vegeta would have died if they fought Buu but it turns out Goku was referring to their current state. Both sides supporting their manga statements have flaws.

Since ppl want me to talk about the super spirit bomb feat, imo it's not a good argument to suggest Kid Buvisibly see Trunks, Goten, Gohan etc donating their Ki, i have no issues with that. But many people forget that they were just brought back to life. This is important because we know when that when a character gets revived, you'll be weaker and you won't have your full ki. Goku says this to Vegeta when he says he’ll stall for time.

This is further supported by the fact that Freeza said being revived weakened him as well in Dragon Ball: Rebirth of F #1. And the truth is, Goku didn't have the power or stamina to unleash the Spirit Bomb.

If we wanna use Daizenshuu, Daizenshuu 2 says that Goku didn’t have the physical strength to control the Spirit Bomb. So this Spirit Bomb argument does not prove Kid Buu > Super Buu either. So it makes sense why Kid Buu was able to hold back the spirit bomb...its not because Kid Buu is so strong. The fact that Kid Buu, the guy who is supposed to be stronger than Buuhan or the guy who is supposed to be stronger than Super Buu struggled against a weak spirit bomb is concerning.


To conclude, this was mostly a reply to @Infinite9Luck because i have seen he constantly clings onto the guidebooks/daizenshuu as if his life depends on it. What i'm trying to prove to him is that the guidebook statements that i used straight up goes against what he is claiming. It also doesn't help that he keeps using scans from the anime when the anime is not canon. He knows this and yet he is still doing it. It's extremely dishonest. Earlier he was even trying to justify it by saying it was stated to be a faithful adaptation but statements like that are not good enough at all. What's worse is that Toriyama even views the anime and manga as different things. Toriyama has stated multiple times that he left the Anime staff to handle the project. The guidebooks have a bunch of statements of Gohan being the strongest so you gonna use that now? Do you still not see the problem with using guidebook statements? They constantly contradict each other and are unreliable as hell. I'll stop it there because i don't want to go into a pointless debate surrounding the canonocity of Dragon Ball but the good thing is that OP does not use guidebooks as his main argument.

My suggestion is that we should simply just look and compare better official manga statements and feats that support Kid Buu being the strongest and better official manga statements and feats that support Buuhan being the strongest. Of course Daizenshuu can be used as long as it actually supports what the manga says but not when it keeps providing inconsistent information over and over.