The Most Troublesome Buu: Buu scaling revision

[CryoTheMayo]

no stated multiplier
tho at least >3x due to raditz

So, do you think it would be reasonable for Ultimate Gohan to kill Cell Max with a >3x multiplier when they both know about UI Goku, and likely UE Vegeta as Vegeta was shown on Earth prior to SH's events, and they both question if Goku and Vegeta could have defeated Cell Max?

why wouldn't a separate key work?

It can work. I am simply raising the point that your discontent with a Varies rating isn't really grounded in the series, not consistently enough anyway.

If people want to do a separate key we can just do that. That's fine.

 

[Sus]

So, do you think it would be reasonable for Ultimate Gohan to kill Cell Max with a >3x multiplier when they both know about UI Goku, and likely UE Vegeta as Vegeta was shown on Earth prior to SH's events, and they both question if Goku and Vegeta could have defeated Cell Max?

i honestly don't know about super scaling much, but at least in the manga beast aint far behind UI, no?

It can work. I am simply raising the point that your discontent with a Varies rating isn't really grounded in the series, not consistently enough anyway.

i contested goku ss3 physically being 20,000x his ss2

while a charged variable can work i mostly agree with a new key

 

[CryoTheMayo]

i honestly don't know about super scaling much, but at least in the manga beast aint far behind UI, no?

This isn't Beast vs UI. It's Orange Piccolo, who is stated to be on a similar level to Gohan Beast and UI Goku, firmly believing Ultimate Gohan (who scales to something like SSB-level most of the time and is shown to not be that powerful in the SH epilogue) can surpass his power level and kill Cell Max if he has time to charge his Ki for long enough. Which, as I argue, adds additional precedent to the idea that characters can charge their Ki to reach higher levels of power temporarily.

Am I going to argue that applies to every character or form? No. Only if they are shown to do that.

i contested goku ss3 physically being 20,000x his ss2

while a charged variable can work i mostly agree with a new key

Sure. We could do a new key if enough people think that's better.

Since we're in agreement on that no point to clog this thread up further. We'll see what others say later.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I actually went back to the thread, and more than 21 users in total agree with the upgrade vs like 3-4 Disagree. Does that really mean nothing? What is the point of having general CRT if even dozens of people voting has no weight when the wiki is alive just because of them?

It's an anti-brigading measure and has always been this way. If it were by raw user count, then any upgrade, no matter how illogical or unsupported, can get through based on just getting a mass number of people to agree or disagree with any subject. If it then becomes "Well the mods determine what is or isn't logical" then you're back to square one again, since a mod vote can just determine the thread is supported and dismiss it anyway.

Because the disagreements need to counter the OP. If 50 points are raised and only 20 are countered, then what is the point? The agreements do not need to counter the OP.

The disagreements themselves only need to agree on a solid core disagreeing argument, for the same reason saying FRA or agreeing with another user is a valid post, as you're saying their argument is the one you would make (if possible) and agree with it's conclusion.

I believe that 'officially' brings us to 4-3 in favor of the Kid Buu agenda (As I believe Qawsed stated he's fine either either? As did Viet earlier).

In my view saying Kid Buu > Super Buu isn't controversial; the issue is primarily going to be Goku and how his power makes no sense with the current scaling chain we have. Like I said SS2 Goku ~ Majin Vegeta just makes the scaling chain completely unfounded when you're also saying SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Everyone but Vegito.

So either SS3 must be changed, or you give Goku an "End of DBZ" key that only he scales to.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So either SS3 must be changed, or you give Goku an "End of DBZ" key that only he scales to.

Given Sus has raised his concerns with the former, do you have any thoughts on which would make the most sense to you? As I've said before I'd be fine with either choice.

 

[Qawsedf234]

do you have any thoughts on which would make the most sense to you?

The one that's the simplest is just giving Goku an end of Dragon Ball Z key. As for why, idk, accelerated development I guess. DBS Goku goes from 4-B to 2-C within the arc under the same logic.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The one that's the simplest is just giving Goku an end of Dragon Ball Z key. As for why, idk, accelerated development I guess. DBS Goku goes from 4-B to 2-C within the arc under the same logic.

I suppose we can justify it through three main factors:

1) Zenkai Boost from Majin Vegeta​

2) Helping Gohan with Z-Sword training (which is stated to boost Gohan's power considerably so it's reasonable that Goku would have grown a good bit himself)​

3) Accelerated Development over the course of multiple fights, observing Super Buu's fights, fighting as Vegito and then adapting to Kid Buu's strength​

​

If no one else has contention with that conclusion we can just go with a Kid Buu Saga key for Goku.

 

[Sus]

only took 10 pages!!

 

[StarShooter80]

SSJ3 being able to build up ki like should still be acknowledged on the profile, or at least as an "Enhanced Accelerated Development (Other; Physical Stats)" thing, even if we go ahead with the new key

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I suppose we can justify it through three main factors:

1) Zenkai Boost from Majin Vegeta​

2) Helping Gohan with Z-Sword training (which is stated to boost Gohan's power considerably so it's reasonable that Goku would have grown a good bit himself)​

3) Accelerated Development over the course of multiple fights, observing Super Buu's fights, fighting as Vegito and then adapting to Kid Buu's strength​

​

If no one else has contention with that conclusion we can just go with a Kid Buu Saga key for Goku.

Isn't it then weird that Goku goes "You know, I could've actually beaten Fat Buu, so I can definitely beat Kid Buu" when you know, the Goku he was apparently talking about was nothing compared to his current power? Why wouldn't he bring up that he's grown enough that even Super Buu couldn't beat him? Or anything like that?

 

[Sus]

Isn't it then weird that Goku goes "You know, I could've actually beaten Fat Buu, so I can definitely beat Kid Buu" when you know, the Goku he was apparently talking about was nothing compared to his current power? Why wouldn't he bring up that he's grown enough that even Super Buu couldn't beat him? Or anything like that?

he didn't say "i could have beaten kid buu cuz i could have beaten fat buu"?

 

[Sus]

honestly no way i look at it, there IS some inconsistency in the buu saga scaling chain

a key makes the most sense even if its still somewhat inconsistent

 

[TiltedFN]

Isn't it then weird that Goku goes "You know, I could've actually beaten Fat Buu, so I can definitely beat Kid Buu" when you know, the Goku he was apparently talking about was nothing compared to his current power? Why wouldn't he bring up that he's grown enough that even Super Buu couldn't beat him? Or anything like that?

What? Goku isn't saying he can beat Kid Buu because he can beat Fat Buu. Those are different statements.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

he didn't say "i could have beaten kid buu cuz i could have beaten fat buu"?

He basically said that when he told Vegeta he wasn't going to get his turn, cause he would've already beat Buu, ya know?

And his justification as to why, was that he could've actually beaten Fat Buu?

 

[Sus]

He basically said that when he told Vegeta he wasn't going to get his turn, cause he would've already beat Buu, ya know?

And his justification as to why, was that he could've actually beaten Fat Buu?

then u get slammed with ss3 somehow being a x20,000x multiplier lol

 

[CryoTheMayo]

He basically said that when he told Vegeta he wasn't going to get his turn, cause he would've already beat Buu, ya know?

And his justification as to why, was that he could've actually beaten Fat Buu?

...No. Goku states Vegeta might not get a turn. Then he tells him "You know, I could've beaten Fat Buu when I first met him". A phrase like 'you know' is often used like 'by the way'.

He's following up his previous statement with an additional one.

 

[TiltedFN]

He basically said that when he told Vegeta he wasn't going to get his turn, cause he would've already beat Buu, ya know?

And his justification as to why, was that he could've actually beaten Fat Buu?

Eden imma have to ask you to go over the CRT once more. Goku isn't actually okay with fighting Kid Buu alone. He wanted to do fusion in the first place. But because of Vegeta absolutely hating it, he considers Vegeta's feelings and fights without it. That panel of Goku saying Vegeta might not get a turn is just him because cocky as hell which he admits later. Goku is hyping himself up here despite not knowing if he can even win or do anything in the first place. You're taking two unrelated statements and trying to combine them as if though they are in the same context. Goku is just admitting to Vegeta that he could of ended this earlier, but he was thinking of the next generation.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

What? Goku isn't saying he can beat Kid Buu because he can beat Fat Buu. Those are different statements.

Goku: "You know Vegeta, I could've beaten Cell back then, but I wanted Gohan to so there'd be someone when I'm gone."

Vegeta: "We're fighting Beerus Kakarot"

 

[TiltedFN]

Goku: "You know Vegeta, I could've beaten Cell back then, but I wanted Gohan to so there'd be someone where I'm gone."

Vegeta: "We're fighting Beerus Kakarot"

Literally have no idea what you're trying to say. Just completely unrelated.

 

[Sus]

.....yeah..

new key it is

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Eden imma have to ask you to go over the CRT once more. Goku isn't actually okay with fighting Kid Buu alone. He wanted to do fusion in the first place. But because of Vegeta absolutely hating it, he considers Vegeta's feelings and fights without it. That panel of Goku saying Vegeta might not get a turn is just him because cocky as hell which he admits later. Goku is hyping himself up here despite not knowing if he can even win or do anything in the first place. You're taking two unrelated statements and trying to combine them as if though they are in the same context. Goku is just admitting to Vegeta that he could of ended this earlier, but he was thinking of the next generation.

Whether Goku knows Kid Buu's actual power or not isn't relevant. Why would he hype himself over the fact a weaker version of him could've beaten a weaker form of Buu? If this was a stronger Goku?

Hell, how is this a secret if this Goku was Gotenks level? His SSJ should already eclipse SSJ3 Goku by miles.

 

[TiltedFN]

Whether Goku knows Kid Buu's actual power or not isn't relevant. Why would he hype himself over the fact a weaker version of him could've beaten a weaker form of Buu? If this was a stronger Goku?

Eden, he isn't hyping himself up over being able to beat Fat Buu. It's an entirely new statement. He's simply admitting to Vegeta that he could of ended things earlier. They are evidently not connected. And we KNOW Goku was hyping himself up since we are told he got cocky later and that he should of used fusion to get it over with.

Hell, how is this a secret if this Goku was Gotenks level? His SSJ should already eclipse SSJ3 Goku by miles.

Maybe because Vegeta states Goku's power was beyond his imagination? Besides, Vegeta didn't even HEAR Goku says this at all. He straight up says Goku is number 1. He is the strongest. Only Goku can fight Kid Buu. He straight up puts Goku over literally everyone. Only Piccolo had suspected Goku earlier of not trying his hardest to beat Fat Buu. This is literally so irrelevant regardless.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Alright, We're 10 pages in. Can we leave that topic at that? Staff can examine those posts and see if they're enough to sway their stance.

 

[TiltedFN]

Well, this CRT has been accepted so I'd recommend to stop all debate. Changes will be made shortly.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, this CRT has been accepted so I'd recommend to stop all debate. Changes will be made shortly.

Before you change the profiles themselves, can we see exactly what will be written for the justifications of the affected characters?

 

[Sus]

Well, this CRT has been accepted so I'd recommend to stop all debate. Changes will be made shortly.

not to clog but is a new key for goku all what changes? also scaling kid buu to super buu

 

[CryoTheMayo]

not to clog but is a new key for goku all what changes? also scaling kid buu to super buu

I believe so, yes. Vegeta would not scale currently because...well. His entire existence was being Kid Buu's plaything and he lacks statements like Goku.

 

[TiltedFN]

Before you change the profiles themselves, can we see exactly what will be written for the justifications of the affected characters?

After losing the Heart of the Grand Supreme Kai and South Supreme Kai, all the 'Heart' that purified him was lost. Reverting him to a being a pure evil being who's power was no longer restricted. His power would be greater relative to Super Buu since it was noted to have risen by Goku.

That can be for Kid Buu I suppose.

As for Goku, his End of Saga Key can be:

After pushing beyond the limit, Goku is able to fight on par with Kid Buu, being declared the strongest warrior multiple times. It is even expressed by Goku and Vegeta that at full power, he would be able to obliterate Kid Buu in an instant.

Does this seem adequate?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Before you change the profiles themselves, can we see exactly what will be written for the justifications of the affected characters?

So since the Buuhan agenda is the dominate accepted end, this is the new scaling chain:

• SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > SS3 EoDBZ Goku ~ Kid Buu > Gohan > Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Pre-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks ~ SS3 Goku > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta

Current for comparison to my understanding:

• SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post RoSaT Base Gotenks ~ Kid Buu ≥ SS3 Goku / Pre-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks ≥ Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta

Does this seem adequate?

Goku is fine. Kid Buu may be better as:
Current:

Solar System level (Matched SSJ3 Goku and ultimately outlasted him in their fight. Toyed with SSJ2 Vegeta), Varies, up to far higher with Kamehameha

New:

Solar System level (After losing the influence of Grand Supreme Kai and South Supreme Kai, his power greatly increased as noted by Kibito Kai, making him superior to Super Buu's power. Matched SSJ3 Goku and ultimately outlasted him in their fight.), Varies, up to far higher with Kamehameha

We can include the Buff Buu scan having greater power than Super Buu for the second justification and the Kai's statement on the heart stuff for the first one

 

[Damage3245]

Qaws suggestion works well enough.

After the changes are made to Goku's profile it'd probably be worth splitting up his Z manga profile; one for the Saiyan Saga + Frieza Saga, and one of the Cell Saga + Buu Saga.

Eight keys is quite a lot on one profile.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Eight keys is quite a lot on one profile.

They could use what we do for The Princess or Sonic. Just add tabs for each key, which makes it more readable while keeping everything together.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I am going to start working on Goku's profile with Qawsed's suggestion in mind. If anyone else is doing it right now let me know. I'll check in before I update it.

 

[Sus]

They could use what we do for The Princess or Sonic. Just add tabs for each key, which makes it more readable while keeping everything together.

it would still look really tedious on mobile

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I have updated Goku's profile. Please let me know if there are any errors. I did not touch listed statistical values because I believe people operating scaling blogs, such as Ednaxel, will likely want to do that on their own time.

EDIT: I have also updated Buu's profile. As I stated before I am not touching the statistics values from blogs. I'm leaving that up to Ednaxel to do, as he maintains scaling blogs for the verse.

 

[StarShooter80]

I have updated the AP blog, I will go on to update the statistics of the pages but just one thing

I have updated Goku's profile. Please let me know if there are any errors. I did not touch listed statistical values because I believe people operating scaling blogs, such as Ednaxel, will likely want to do that on their own time.

EDIT: I have also updated Buu's profile. As I stated before I am not touching the statistics values from blogs. I'm leaving that up to Ednaxel to do, as he maintains scaling blogs for the verse.

I don't see the point in removing the kamehameha ratings, I understand why for the DBS Manga pages since everything is condensed into one paragraph, and all the relevant values are 3 universes anyways

However with this the Z pages their finite values with charged attacks are notable, and Goku's keys are separated into tabbers/individual paragraphs, preventing the charged attack ratings from bloating the page and what-not

 

[Sus]

I have updated the AP blog, I will go on to update the statistics of the pages but just one thing

I don't see the point in removing the kamehameha ratings, I understand why for the DBS Manga pages since everything is condensed into one paragraph, and all the relevant values are 3 universes anyways

However with this the Z pages their finite values with charged attacks are notable, and Goku's keys are separated into tabbers/individual paragraphs, preventing the charged attack ratings from bloating the page and what-not

also we could put the "destroy kid buu in an instant" statement in the charged attacks section

 

[CryoTheMayo]

snip

Fair enough. I didn't really think that through properly as I was zoning out with Goku's page. I apologise for the error.

 

[StarShooter80]

Also here are the other pages (apart from Z Goku and Z Buu) that get affected by this revision for their statistics, use this blog as reference for their new numbers, additional help with other editors would be appreciated (no justifications need to be changed, nor tiers they stay 4-B):

• Son Goku (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)
• Vegeta (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)
• Future Trunks (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)
• Frieza (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)
• Goku Black (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Also here are the other pages (apart from Z Goku and Z Buu) that get affected by this revision for their statistics, use this blog as reference for their new numbers, additional help with other editors would be appreciated (no justifications need to be changed, nor tiers they stay 4-B):

• Son Goku (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)
• Vegeta (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)
• Future Trunks (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)
• Frieza (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)
• Goku Black (DBS Manga) (Incomplete)

I'll see about updating all of those myself. If you can handle Z Goku and Buu I'd appreciate it. We'll need the Son Goku (DBS Manga) page unlocked.

 

[StarShooter80]

I'll see about updating all of those myself. If you can handle Z Goku and Buu I'd appreciate it. We'll need the Son Goku (DBS Manga) page unlocked.

I'll request for all the locked pages to be opened, also I'm unsure what scans we're gonna be using for Buu or his actual AP justification