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This post is a revision of the one I posted at the end of January of this year. That post was originally made for Reddit, which is why it didn't have any scans and why the format was so weird. I tried to make it as short as possible, and even then nobody actually read it, all of the comments were basically "Don't care Buuhan solos". This time the post is structured (better) and sources are included. I will be going over the arguments for my case in this post, I will not be going over the reasoning for the inclusion of supplementary material because the website already accepts them, so it would be a waste of my time, but I can address that if it's necessary because it's a popular talking point in DB discussion that guidebooks are unreliable, not approved by Akira Toriyama, always wrong etc. The same goes for the inclusion of DBS and Daima content as proof as they are canon. I will be going over some counter arguments made from manga evidence commonly made by people on the pro-Buuhan side. I will be responding to counter arguments periodically to defend my position, when I find the time to. I will also not be covering basic information of what happens in the story at that point or who Majin Buu is, why he exists etc. because I am writing this with the assumption that people reading this already know all of that and as such I will not be including scans from the manga unless necessary, instead I will be copy pasting text from Herms' strength checker. There will be exceptions as you will see, but for major parts of the manga, everyone already knows what I am talking about, I see no need to put images you have already seen 100 times. I've noticed that another user who commented on my original post (and was possibly inspired) made a better revision of that one which was accepted. Though like I said the revisions are not perfect (Kid Buu is still listed below Super Buu, just one paragraph was added saying he surpassed base Super Buu), and this version goes way more in depth than even his version.
Part 1: Lost in translation
It is important to realize that at no point in the manga (nor the original Z anime or Kai) is Buuhan called the strongest version of Buu by anyone, not even by himself in any relevant way. The first reference of his power that people point to is not stated by Buuhan actually but Buutenks, after Super Buu absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo. Most people in the world are not Japanese speakers, nor are most Dragon Ball fans. So most people have not read the original Japanese text. The two most commonly read versions by English speakers are the only official version which is the Viz translation (which is a perfectly fine read, bar the horrible localization calling Majin Buu Djinn Buu and Vegito Vegerot) and a scan by Horny Scans Council, found on websites like ******** and other sites for pirated manga. Let's see what Buutenks says in those versions:
HSC:
"Do you like it, Gohan? A splendid success for me and an honor for you, I'd say! For you to witness the birth of THE MIGHTIEST MAJIN OF ALL TIMES!!"
Viz:
"What do you think, Gohan? A splendid success for me and an honor for you, I'd say! For you to witness the birth of THE MOST POWERFUL DJINN OF ALL TIME-
PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE!"
In both versions Buutenks clearly claims to be the strongest Majin Buu ever up to that point, which would include Kid Buu. But this is a major mistranslation of what Buutenks actually said.
Original text, translated by Herms:
“…What do you think, Gohan? My strategy succeeded safely. Look, isn’t it magnificent? This is a moment that will never appear again, no matter what the future may hold: the birth of the strongest majin.”
Key part here being that Buutenks never actually references the past. He says that he is the strongest Majin and that he will never be surpassed no matter what happens in the future. First we know this is wrong, no matter which side you are on, Buuhan is stronger than Buutenks and he surpassed him in the future. Buu however isn't absolutely wrong here. Herms translated the moment as one that "will never appear again" but will here is probably better substituted with "shall likely never appear again". Buutenks is making a prediction, ultimately a non-committal statement about the future that it is very unlikely he will ever be surpassed by anyone. であろう translates to "shall likely be" or "will probably be". Herms is not wrong either, because "will" is used when making a prediction, he didn't use "going to" which is committal, it signals certainty.
The second piece of evidence comes from Buuhan when he comes into existence and here is what he says in different versions:
HSC:
"Now I'm stronger than ever!! And with no time limit!!
Viz:
"Now I'm stronger than ever before!! And with no time limit!!"
In both versions Buuhan clearly again claims to be the strongest Majin Buu of all time but this time the translation is even less accurate.
Original text, translated by Herms:
"“Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”
Buu clearly states that the power-up he received from Gohan is bigger than the one he got from Gotenks. All he said here is he was stronger than Buutenks, not that he was the strongest Majin Buu of all time.
There is one more statement where Buuhan does claim to be the strongest of all time, but it comes after thinking he absorbed Vegito. It's a well known fact that Vegito is the strongest character in DBZ, of course absorbing him would put him above everyone else.
In supplementary material there are only two instances calling Buuhan the strongest. First one is Chouzenshuu 2 (Daizenshuu 5) stating : "Buu, having absorbed Gohan after an interruption, evolves into his most powerful form.” but Daizenshuu 5 is supplementary to the DBZ anime, and the anime is very clear on who the strongest Buu is. Daizenshuu 5 also doesn't cover the part of the series when Kid Buu appears as no references to that part of the anime are in the book. The second one is Dragon Ball forever which states "Keep the strongest Majin at bay!" for the Vegito vs Buuhan fight. Dragon ball Forever also calls Kid Buu the strongest, and as we will see this is a major exception. But the bottom line is most people who argue for Buuhan use mistranslated statements (unknowingly) and many reject supplementary material as being authorative, even tho Dragon Ball Forever is the only truly valid reference to Buuhan being the strongest. What most pro-Buuhan supporters use is chain scaling, which is of course a legitimate and logical way of scaling characters, but as we will see it cannot be applied here.
Part 2: The chain
This part will address the typical line of reasoning used for the pro-Buuhan case. Goku is visibly afraid of Buutenks and tries to fuse with Gohan, the anime even depicts what a fight between Goku and Buutenks would look like and it wasn't pretty for Goku. Then once Buuhan appears Goku is so afraid he contemplates fusion with Mr. Satan. Inside of Buu Goku claims he and Vegeta are too weak to fight Super Buu, then once Kid Buu appears they are much more confident, Goku ends up fighting Buu unfused even tho he had a chance to use the potara, and actually claims he can kill Buu with a minute to gather power.
This produces the most commonly accepted Buu saga chain which is as follows: Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > Gotenks ~ Super Buu > Goku ~ Kid Buu > Fat Buu > everyone else. Sounds good?
I'm including this because this is the entire argument for Buuhan. The argument for Kid Buu was never chain scaling trough Goku, so even if you don't accept overwhelming evidence of Goku being stronger than Super Buu (surpassing him), evidence for Kid Buu exists independed of that.
Part 3: What does the manga say?
A lot of people ignore the heavily implied narrative that Kid Buu is the strongest. I'll try to demonstrate trough some statements from the characters first, important parts capitalized, on their own none of these are conclusive but together we can see a theme:
Chapter 509:
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, ESPECIALLY SINCE THINGS ARE SO DANGEROUS NOW…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! AND AT A TIME LIKE THIS! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. HE CAN'T COME ALL THE WAY HERE. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
It's important to note here that Goku here clearly explains why they didn't use the potara. He never states Buu's power to be the reason, just that he wants to fight fair, Vegeta even states that it's the Saiyan way (the Saiyan way is to be rational rather than emotional?). Also notice how none of them say that this would be the time to fight unfused, on the contrary it is highlighted that this is the worst moment yet they could have refused the potara as stated by both Goku and the Kaioshin. I'm saying this because people often state that not fusing for Kid Buu is evidence that he was inferior when the manga clearly sates otherwise. Goku also assumes Buu won't be able to reach the Kaioshin realm, this is possibly a prediction that not even Buuhan is skilled enough to copy a technique that complex that quickly, but Kid Buu does so effortlessly.
Daizenshuu 2 interview with Toriyama:
So it’s like Goku’s line at the end of the battle with Majin Boo.
Toriyama: That’s right. He said “You did well all on your own”. I suppose that Goku’s motive was that no matter what kind of enemy there was, he wanted to fight them one-on-one.
Chapter 510:
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re THE ONLY ONE capable of fighting him…” (Goku weaker than Super Buu?)
Vegeta: “The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed by Boo]. THAT BUU IS STRONGER THAN I IMAGINED... AND SO ARE YOU, KAKAROT…”
Vegeta witnessed Buuhan yet he still can't believe how strong Kid Buu is. He should also have a pretty good understanding of how strong Goku is as he saw him fight from the other world and yet he is still shocked how strong he is.
Vegeta: “Wh-what fast and heavy attacks…! …Kakarot was…fighting with a gu-guy like this…?!”
Still after experiencing Buuhan, Vegeta can't believe the power of Kid Buu
Kid Buu pulls off a feat that would have been impossible if he was weaker than Super Buu, he pushes back the spirit bomb that contained the ki of Ultimate Gohan. The common talking point from pro-Buuhan fans is that the spirit bomb "only collects genki, not ki" and this is a bad cope. Trouought the series terms like Genki, Ki and Energy are used completely synonymously, even during this struggle, they specifically say "Ki" many times. Genki is also literally "Energy", other parts of "Ki" as stated by Toriyama are "courage" and "right mindedness" I guess the reason Buu was able to push the spirit bomb was because Gohan didn't send his courage and right mindedness to Goku, then it would have worked! It's also not true that Goku wasn't able to use the spirit bomb properly because he was drained. Every time the spirit bomb was used, the user was depleted and they were able to use it very effectively. Think Krillin and Gohan vs Vegeta and Goku vs Frieza. A lot of people also downplay the scale of that spirit bomb. Not only did the entire Earth contribute, but also people from other planets too like New Namek, powerful characters like the fused Kibitoshin, and also the afterlife, yes even in the manga as it's shown.
Another reason why it's impossible for Kid Buu to be weaker than Super Buu (at least), can also be found in the manga. We all know Buu lost a significant amount of power after absorbing the Grand Kaioshin, but why is this the case, why specifically the Grand Kaioshin? Many people say that the reason he weakened Buu is due to his gentle nature, but this isn't the case because Gohan is also completely pure of heart and a gentle person, yet he gave Buu the largest power boost he ever received. The other explaination is that Kaioshin in general weaken Buu. This is a hard pill to swallow for Super Buu fans because it destroys the common scaling because of this line during chapter 507:
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”
Goku says this as Buu is changing from Super Buu to "Buff Buu", but if Kaioshin weaken Buu then it automatically means Kid Buu is also stronger than Super Buu. We have more evidence for this, other than the Great Kaioshin weakening Buu, in chapter 447
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
Dabura states that they can't use energy from Kaioshin and Kibito, both of whom are Kaioshin in order to fuel Majin Buu's pod. So we have 3 instances of Kaioshin ki and Buu being mentioned and in all 3 it's stated that the effect will not be positive best case scenario to negative. We also have no sources claiming the Southern Kaioshin incrased Buu's power, it's just the necessary conclusion people came to to fit into their scaling, but as we can see its circular reasoning. We know that the energy they are collecting is directly linked to Majin Buu's power, because at one point in the manga we are shown the energy bar on Majin Buu's seal, and it is at about halfway, then Babidi tells Dabura to fight the Saiyans somewhere else because he doesn't want to wake up Buu at half power.
It is important to remember here that Dragon Ball was initially released in the Weekly Shonen Jump, not in volumes. The WSJ releases included text not present in later releleases like the Tankobon and the Kanzenban editions.
page 87 of Weekly Shōnen Jump 1995 Issue 15 states, “Beyond the limit, even further beyond!!The gong of battle resounds!!" chapter 510 of the manga
page 483 of Weekly Shōnen Jump 1995 Issue 21–22 states, "Buu, the strongest, dies?!" and also "Son Goku & Vegeta. The ultimate battle with the strongest enemy, Majin Buu!!", for chapter 516 of the manga
The Sōshūhen reprinted the pages of Weekly Shōnen Jump 1995 Issue 15 and in the Full Color edition’s Piccolo Daimao Vol. 2 page 223:
“Gathering the ki from all over the Earth, it is launched at the strongest enemy, Majin Buu!!”
These are multiple references to Kid Buu being the strongest on the pages of the original manga and later rereleases of them.
Dragon Ball Super is also consistent:
On chapter 31 page 13. Dende, talking to Goku about Uub, says, “Yes, the soul of the evil part of Majin Buu, who was once OUR STRONGEST ENEMY, was purified and reincarnated as a human.”
Chapter 1 page 1 of DBS Shows Goku preparing the Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu and states "The sudden appearance of Buu, the mightiest enemy of all time..."
So the manga clearly portrays Kid Buu as the greatest threat ever, especially when considering the original releases in the Weekly Shonen Jump which had additional text by Shueisha, plot in the manga makes it impossible for Super Buu to be stronger than Kid Buu, and DBS also calls Kid Buu the strongest twice, the latter in chapter 31 being undeniably in reference to Kid Buu because Uub is a reincarnation of him specifically, this text was supervised and approved by Toriyama of course.
Part 4: Outside the manga
We will add on to the madness by looking at official supplementary material outside of the manga that is supplementary to it, I will avoid material supplementary to the anime because the anime is clear on who the strongest Buu is.
Chouzenshuu 1 (Daizenshuu 2) states: “Although he places his hopes on the next generation, the one who defeated the strongest-in-the-universe Buu was Goku, revived with the Elder Kaiōshins life.” and later Goku vs Kid Buu fight "The universe’s strongest enemy was defeated, and peace was restored.”,
Dragon Ball Forever: Goku vs Kid Buu “The strongest enemy deserves the utmost respect!” and Goku decides to fight without relying on the Potara. He confronts the powered-up Buu as a Super Saiyan 3!”
Dragon Ball: Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume calls Kid Buu "the strongest enemy"
Supplementary material is once again consistent on who the strongest Buu is.
Part 5: Goku
With all of this said, where does Goku scale? Clearly the common line of reasoning is faulty, if Goku was close to Kid Buu, then he's significantly stronger than we originally thought. Thanfully we have evidence for this too. The first is that we have to acnowledge that Goku wasn't actually ablet to beat Buu at any point.
Daizenshuu 2 confirms this, stating under the Goku vs Kid Buu fight "Not even a full power Goku can defeat him"
January 1996’s issue of V-Jump states: “Even Super Saiyan 3 Goku can barely hold his own against Buu.”
Weekly Shōnen Jump 1995 Issue 16 on page 442, it states, “Buu’s attacks have no blind spots!! Does Goku have a way to turn the tide from this overwhelming disadvantage!?”
Many other sources like the super exciting guide and forever state that they were equally matched, but none state that Goku was above Kid Buu at any point. This is also supported by the evidence from the peaceful world saga and Dragon Ball Daima.
In Daima Goku states that he trained for SS4 because he needed to get stronger after the fight with Kid Buu.
Kaioshin also states in episode 7 for Goku when asked how strong he is "As far as I know, the strongest in the Universe"
Chapter 518 of the manga, talking to Mr. Satan Goku states this referring to Uub
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.” when he says Boo he is refering to Good Buu, and the someone besides them is Uub. This means that Goku after 10 years of training still isn't sure if he can beat Buu. Canonically this would mean he isn't sure he would beat him after unlocking ultra instinct and everything but I'm not making that claim as this was stated back in 1995.
Then Goku tells Buu to rig the matches so Goku and Uub are paired
Goku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…”
Vegeta's attitude towards Goku and the whole narrative heavily imply he is the strongest Z warrior. Daima which takes place roughly a year after the Buu saga states in the opening “This man, Son Goku, may appear gentle, but is the most powerful warrior in the universe!” this is an introduction to Daima, its reintroducing Goku to the audience and not supposed to be introducing any new information. Goku is also obviously treated as the strongest fighter in the beginning of DBS as he is the one to fight Beerus.
Vegeta also states during the carnival episode
"He defeated Majin Buu, and should have become the undisputed superior fighter, yet he keeps training."
Chapter 510, watching Goku fight Kid Buu, Vegeta states
"Hang in there Kakarot, you are number one!!!" this is in reference to Goku's power
Page 16 of Akira Toriyama: The World of Dragon Ball reads “In the midst of a deadly battle with Majin Buu, the proud Vegeta finally acknowledged Goku’s strength—a valuable and memorable scene.”
Dragon Ball Forever “He finally acknowledges Goku’s strength,” and “Even though he acknowledges Goku as number one, he dreams of surpassing him one day…”
Daizenshuu 4 "Always of a kind-hearted nature and the strongest person in the universe. Indeed, Goku is number one!"
Daizenshuu 2 "The only one who can fight Buu is Goku!"
Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods Special Booklet, it states: “Several years after the battle with Majin Buu, familiar characters all gather together! The reason the story is set after the Majin Buu arc is that it’s a time when ‘the core members are all together, and Goku and the others have become almost perfectly strong.’ Their hairstyles and clothing (and thus their appearances) have changed, but their strength doesn’t seem to have changed all that much compared to the time of the Majin Buu arc.” and then
Le Manga de Légende calls Goku the “strongest hero” in Issue 4 on page 4
Vjump in 2019 also released a statement comparing the different forms of Buu, the description for Buuhan was: "Buu took advantage of an opening to absorb Gohan. He gained strength equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku. His outfit also changed to resemble a martial artist’s gi."
Most Japanese speakers have stated that due to the grammar in the sentence that the text is saying Buuhan as a whole is equal to SS3 Goku, but even if it claimed Gohan=Goku it still undermines the assumption that Goku was weaker than Super Buu.
From all of this we can conclude that Goku was indeed the strongest character at the end of the Buu saga (not counting Buu who is dead and Vegito)
Part 6: Where did Goku get this power?
It is never explained how nor when Goku so strong, even if the evidence that he did is clear. I will be offering some explanations, though all of them are speculative and none of them have conclusive evidence. It is a fact that Goku wasn't this strong while standing in front of Buutenks and Buuhan, probably not inside of Super Buu either, meaning this power boost came right before he fought Kid Buu, during the fight or most likely both. Simply put Goku has plot armor and Saiyans get stronger as they fight. While we all know that Saiyans get stronger from near death expiriences, it is also a fact that characters in Dragon Ball, especially Saiyans, get stronger during combat. It is heavily implied that Ninja Kurasaki and General White were stronger than Sergeant Metallic, even though Goku struggled with him more than them, meaning this has been a theme from the early days of DB and wasn't introduced in Super post BOG.
Daizenshuu 4 states for Saiyans “The stronger the opponent you fight, the stronger you become."
Stated by Vegeta during chapter 257 "Fuhahaha…! We Saiyans grow stronger each time we fight…! The stronger the opponent, the stronger we become…So I’m becoming stronger too…! I almost died on Earth, and have now vastly powered up…!"
chapter 295 "We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…” These two is refering to Gohan and Krillin who isn't a Saiyan.
All of this evidence cannot be ignored just because Goku said he can't beat Buu while inside of his body. I will not be trying to argue against Goku's statement because even if it was proven that his size was the only factor, we still have loads of evidence of Goku being weaker than Buutenks and Buuhan before him. Goku was obviously not stronger than Gohan prior to fighting Kid Buu, but as the evidence overwhelmingly shows, that changed at some point and was later explained by Toriyama trough Vegeta's dialogue calling him number one, the only one who can fight Buu etc. and which was confirmed by basically every major supplementary source.
The current text is fine, stating Goku was able to push his limits.
Part 7: The Anime
Takao Koyama has stated on X that “Scriptwriters are not permitted to make revisions that would conflict with the original work’s setting” and during the production of the anime Toriyama and his editors had significant involvement in it's production since the beginning of Z. You can read more about this here to understand that the anime was an attempt at a faithful adaptation:
www.kanzenshuu.com
Also check out https://www.youtube.com/@forgottenrelics1197 he has many videos explaining the history of production of DB
This means that the anime's statements on things happening in the manga are accurate, especially when they are repeatedly stated like Goku and Kid Buu being the strongest. I will not be including any here, you can find many just by searching or looking at the Toei section on this website, which shouldn't really be a separate category, as the anime was supposed to follow the manga, filler contradictions are simply retconned by the manga, and many aren't accepted by fans even in the anime continuity just because they don't like them, like King Kai and the all knowing narrator stating that Frieza in his second form had enough power to destroy the universe.
One of the many criticisms of the Toei section on this website was the inclusion of movies in scaling as if they were a single continuity. While that is of course not true, no Z movie is canon, movies are based on the manga, they follow the canon continuity up until that point and only diverge because the manga was still ongoing and the movie makers sadly weren't able to see the future. That is to say the entire idea of movie scaling is bogus, props to you guys for keeping movies as evidence. Even is something isn't canon, it can be used as evidence for canon.
“As for the setting and continuity [of the movies], we based things on the developments in the manga at the time of writing. If there were any planned setting changes in the manga, there was a rule that we couldn’t depict them in the movies ahead of the manga. There wasn’t enough time to fully flesh out every detail of the enemy characters’ settings, so we wrote them in line with the broad, commonly accepted continuity (as of when the TV episodes aired).”
“This is the first theatrical Dragon Ball Z film, featuring Goku as an adult with his son Gohan. Up through the previous movies, the Dragon Ball films used the same characters as the original story but were created as parallel worlds to the TV series. However, starting with this film, the movies became original episodes that also connect to the television continuity.”
Even if major differences and contradictions exist, the anime was based on the manga and movies were based on the anime and the manga by extension. Even if movies are not canon and anime filler is often completely retconned by the manga later (even having whole non canon arcs), they depict content and what if stories that are based on the manga.
Both the Z anime and Kai which is supposed to be a more faithful adaptation are clear that Kid Buu and Goku are the strongest. Kai kept almost all of those lines in the original Z anime, they are referencing canon content and therefore can be accepted as secondary evidence to support Kid Buu being the strongest. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that Toei ignored Toriyama's canon not once but twice, and has been doing so for over 30 years at this point, and made an exception for Kid Buu only, it ignores statements from Toei officials and of Sheueisha.
Also don't try to use Koyama's X statements as proof for Buuhan. Koyama is not Toriyama, he wasn't the anime screenwriter when Kid Buu appeared, he has stated multiple times that he is not the guy to ask and that all questions should have been forwarded to the original creator, that Toriyama didn't approve of his statements and that they are only his personal opinion. He has stated many questionable and contradictory things over the years, like Broly being the strongest in Z, which is contradicted by basically every official source there is which are unanimous that the title of the strongest in Z belongs to Vegito.
Part 8: Real life
Why? Why would Toriyama make the final villain of his masterpiece weaker than 5 forms before him? Why not make him the strongest one yet? If he did want that, would it have passed editorial review? Why is every piece of dragon ball media outside of the manga unanimous on who is the strongest? Are they all conspiring against Toriyama or something? Many questions but no answers.
Part 9: The conclusions
This post doesn't have the goal of altering tiering, but altering parts of text inside the reasoning for scaling of certain characters. Kid Buu is listed before Super Buu on Majin Buu's page, he should be listed as the final form. Super Buu's speed also states that he "should be faster than his Kid Buu self", no paragraph exists explaining Goku's immense power boost against Kid Buu when one should exist. If there's anything else from this wall of text that can be concluded then please feel free to, I will expand on certain points if necessary, though I can't promise to be quick on that, I am very busy. Though the itch of seeing so many people so wrong about something I used to care about deeply when I was a kid (and still do, Dragon Ball ftw, I listen to Goku's SS3 theme in the gym) is stronger than my desire to use my time intelligently. Edit: Writing this I have noticed that in the month or so after I wrote the first request, both Kid Buu's and Goku's pages were changed, Goku's is basically done, but Majin Buu's still needs work. Kid Buu is still listed below Super Buu. Also revisions should be done on the pages of other characters, for example Gohan's description states that he's surpassed SS3 Gotenks who is stronger than SS3 Goku. A more accurate description should mentioned that this is referencing Goku prior to fighting Kid Buu.
If you don't consider parts of this text as acceptable evidence (like Weekly shonen jump scans, or mentioning anime) just ignore those parts. The text has plenty of manga exclusive evidence inside as it is.
EDIT: I noticed that the other person didn't have any images in their request, so I will not be posting any myself unless necessary for revisions, but I have listed the exact source for every claim so you can check yourselves. Herms' strength checker can be found here: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15488
Part 1: Lost in translation
It is important to realize that at no point in the manga (nor the original Z anime or Kai) is Buuhan called the strongest version of Buu by anyone, not even by himself in any relevant way. The first reference of his power that people point to is not stated by Buuhan actually but Buutenks, after Super Buu absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo. Most people in the world are not Japanese speakers, nor are most Dragon Ball fans. So most people have not read the original Japanese text. The two most commonly read versions by English speakers are the only official version which is the Viz translation (which is a perfectly fine read, bar the horrible localization calling Majin Buu Djinn Buu and Vegito Vegerot) and a scan by Horny Scans Council, found on websites like ******** and other sites for pirated manga. Let's see what Buutenks says in those versions:
HSC:
"Do you like it, Gohan? A splendid success for me and an honor for you, I'd say! For you to witness the birth of THE MIGHTIEST MAJIN OF ALL TIMES!!"
Viz:
"What do you think, Gohan? A splendid success for me and an honor for you, I'd say! For you to witness the birth of THE MOST POWERFUL DJINN OF ALL TIME-
PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE!"
In both versions Buutenks clearly claims to be the strongest Majin Buu ever up to that point, which would include Kid Buu. But this is a major mistranslation of what Buutenks actually said.
Original text, translated by Herms:
“…What do you think, Gohan? My strategy succeeded safely. Look, isn’t it magnificent? This is a moment that will never appear again, no matter what the future may hold: the birth of the strongest majin.”
Key part here being that Buutenks never actually references the past. He says that he is the strongest Majin and that he will never be surpassed no matter what happens in the future. First we know this is wrong, no matter which side you are on, Buuhan is stronger than Buutenks and he surpassed him in the future. Buu however isn't absolutely wrong here. Herms translated the moment as one that "will never appear again" but will here is probably better substituted with "shall likely never appear again". Buutenks is making a prediction, ultimately a non-committal statement about the future that it is very unlikely he will ever be surpassed by anyone. であろう translates to "shall likely be" or "will probably be". Herms is not wrong either, because "will" is used when making a prediction, he didn't use "going to" which is committal, it signals certainty.
The second piece of evidence comes from Buuhan when he comes into existence and here is what he says in different versions:
HSC:
"Now I'm stronger than ever!! And with no time limit!!
Viz:
"Now I'm stronger than ever before!! And with no time limit!!"
In both versions Buuhan clearly again claims to be the strongest Majin Buu of all time but this time the translation is even less accurate.
Original text, translated by Herms:
"“Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”
Buu clearly states that the power-up he received from Gohan is bigger than the one he got from Gotenks. All he said here is he was stronger than Buutenks, not that he was the strongest Majin Buu of all time.
There is one more statement where Buuhan does claim to be the strongest of all time, but it comes after thinking he absorbed Vegito. It's a well known fact that Vegito is the strongest character in DBZ, of course absorbing him would put him above everyone else.
In supplementary material there are only two instances calling Buuhan the strongest. First one is Chouzenshuu 2 (Daizenshuu 5) stating : "Buu, having absorbed Gohan after an interruption, evolves into his most powerful form.” but Daizenshuu 5 is supplementary to the DBZ anime, and the anime is very clear on who the strongest Buu is. Daizenshuu 5 also doesn't cover the part of the series when Kid Buu appears as no references to that part of the anime are in the book. The second one is Dragon Ball forever which states "Keep the strongest Majin at bay!" for the Vegito vs Buuhan fight. Dragon ball Forever also calls Kid Buu the strongest, and as we will see this is a major exception. But the bottom line is most people who argue for Buuhan use mistranslated statements (unknowingly) and many reject supplementary material as being authorative, even tho Dragon Ball Forever is the only truly valid reference to Buuhan being the strongest. What most pro-Buuhan supporters use is chain scaling, which is of course a legitimate and logical way of scaling characters, but as we will see it cannot be applied here.
Part 2: The chain
This part will address the typical line of reasoning used for the pro-Buuhan case. Goku is visibly afraid of Buutenks and tries to fuse with Gohan, the anime even depicts what a fight between Goku and Buutenks would look like and it wasn't pretty for Goku. Then once Buuhan appears Goku is so afraid he contemplates fusion with Mr. Satan. Inside of Buu Goku claims he and Vegeta are too weak to fight Super Buu, then once Kid Buu appears they are much more confident, Goku ends up fighting Buu unfused even tho he had a chance to use the potara, and actually claims he can kill Buu with a minute to gather power.
This produces the most commonly accepted Buu saga chain which is as follows: Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > Gotenks ~ Super Buu > Goku ~ Kid Buu > Fat Buu > everyone else. Sounds good?
I'm including this because this is the entire argument for Buuhan. The argument for Kid Buu was never chain scaling trough Goku, so even if you don't accept overwhelming evidence of Goku being stronger than Super Buu (surpassing him), evidence for Kid Buu exists independed of that.
Part 3: What does the manga say?
A lot of people ignore the heavily implied narrative that Kid Buu is the strongest. I'll try to demonstrate trough some statements from the characters first, important parts capitalized, on their own none of these are conclusive but together we can see a theme:
Chapter 509:
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, ESPECIALLY SINCE THINGS ARE SO DANGEROUS NOW…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! AND AT A TIME LIKE THIS! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. HE CAN'T COME ALL THE WAY HERE. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
It's important to note here that Goku here clearly explains why they didn't use the potara. He never states Buu's power to be the reason, just that he wants to fight fair, Vegeta even states that it's the Saiyan way (the Saiyan way is to be rational rather than emotional?). Also notice how none of them say that this would be the time to fight unfused, on the contrary it is highlighted that this is the worst moment yet they could have refused the potara as stated by both Goku and the Kaioshin. I'm saying this because people often state that not fusing for Kid Buu is evidence that he was inferior when the manga clearly sates otherwise. Goku also assumes Buu won't be able to reach the Kaioshin realm, this is possibly a prediction that not even Buuhan is skilled enough to copy a technique that complex that quickly, but Kid Buu does so effortlessly.
Daizenshuu 2 interview with Toriyama:
So it’s like Goku’s line at the end of the battle with Majin Boo.
Toriyama: That’s right. He said “You did well all on your own”. I suppose that Goku’s motive was that no matter what kind of enemy there was, he wanted to fight them one-on-one.
Chapter 510:
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re THE ONLY ONE capable of fighting him…” (Goku weaker than Super Buu?)
Vegeta: “The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed by Boo]. THAT BUU IS STRONGER THAN I IMAGINED... AND SO ARE YOU, KAKAROT…”
Vegeta witnessed Buuhan yet he still can't believe how strong Kid Buu is. He should also have a pretty good understanding of how strong Goku is as he saw him fight from the other world and yet he is still shocked how strong he is.
Vegeta: “Wh-what fast and heavy attacks…! …Kakarot was…fighting with a gu-guy like this…?!”
Still after experiencing Buuhan, Vegeta can't believe the power of Kid Buu
Kid Buu pulls off a feat that would have been impossible if he was weaker than Super Buu, he pushes back the spirit bomb that contained the ki of Ultimate Gohan. The common talking point from pro-Buuhan fans is that the spirit bomb "only collects genki, not ki" and this is a bad cope. Trouought the series terms like Genki, Ki and Energy are used completely synonymously, even during this struggle, they specifically say "Ki" many times. Genki is also literally "Energy", other parts of "Ki" as stated by Toriyama are "courage" and "right mindedness" I guess the reason Buu was able to push the spirit bomb was because Gohan didn't send his courage and right mindedness to Goku, then it would have worked! It's also not true that Goku wasn't able to use the spirit bomb properly because he was drained. Every time the spirit bomb was used, the user was depleted and they were able to use it very effectively. Think Krillin and Gohan vs Vegeta and Goku vs Frieza. A lot of people also downplay the scale of that spirit bomb. Not only did the entire Earth contribute, but also people from other planets too like New Namek, powerful characters like the fused Kibitoshin, and also the afterlife, yes even in the manga as it's shown.
Another reason why it's impossible for Kid Buu to be weaker than Super Buu (at least), can also be found in the manga. We all know Buu lost a significant amount of power after absorbing the Grand Kaioshin, but why is this the case, why specifically the Grand Kaioshin? Many people say that the reason he weakened Buu is due to his gentle nature, but this isn't the case because Gohan is also completely pure of heart and a gentle person, yet he gave Buu the largest power boost he ever received. The other explaination is that Kaioshin in general weaken Buu. This is a hard pill to swallow for Super Buu fans because it destroys the common scaling because of this line during chapter 507:
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”
Goku says this as Buu is changing from Super Buu to "Buff Buu", but if Kaioshin weaken Buu then it automatically means Kid Buu is also stronger than Super Buu. We have more evidence for this, other than the Great Kaioshin weakening Buu, in chapter 447
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
Dabura states that they can't use energy from Kaioshin and Kibito, both of whom are Kaioshin in order to fuel Majin Buu's pod. So we have 3 instances of Kaioshin ki and Buu being mentioned and in all 3 it's stated that the effect will not be positive best case scenario to negative. We also have no sources claiming the Southern Kaioshin incrased Buu's power, it's just the necessary conclusion people came to to fit into their scaling, but as we can see its circular reasoning. We know that the energy they are collecting is directly linked to Majin Buu's power, because at one point in the manga we are shown the energy bar on Majin Buu's seal, and it is at about halfway, then Babidi tells Dabura to fight the Saiyans somewhere else because he doesn't want to wake up Buu at half power.
It is important to remember here that Dragon Ball was initially released in the Weekly Shonen Jump, not in volumes. The WSJ releases included text not present in later releleases like the Tankobon and the Kanzenban editions.
page 87 of Weekly Shōnen Jump 1995 Issue 15 states, “Beyond the limit, even further beyond!!The gong of battle resounds!!" chapter 510 of the manga
page 483 of Weekly Shōnen Jump 1995 Issue 21–22 states, "Buu, the strongest, dies?!" and also "Son Goku & Vegeta. The ultimate battle with the strongest enemy, Majin Buu!!", for chapter 516 of the manga
The Sōshūhen reprinted the pages of Weekly Shōnen Jump 1995 Issue 15 and in the Full Color edition’s Piccolo Daimao Vol. 2 page 223:
“Gathering the ki from all over the Earth, it is launched at the strongest enemy, Majin Buu!!”
These are multiple references to Kid Buu being the strongest on the pages of the original manga and later rereleases of them.
Dragon Ball Super is also consistent:
On chapter 31 page 13. Dende, talking to Goku about Uub, says, “Yes, the soul of the evil part of Majin Buu, who was once OUR STRONGEST ENEMY, was purified and reincarnated as a human.”
Chapter 1 page 1 of DBS Shows Goku preparing the Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu and states "The sudden appearance of Buu, the mightiest enemy of all time..."
So the manga clearly portrays Kid Buu as the greatest threat ever, especially when considering the original releases in the Weekly Shonen Jump which had additional text by Shueisha, plot in the manga makes it impossible for Super Buu to be stronger than Kid Buu, and DBS also calls Kid Buu the strongest twice, the latter in chapter 31 being undeniably in reference to Kid Buu because Uub is a reincarnation of him specifically, this text was supervised and approved by Toriyama of course.
Part 4: Outside the manga
We will add on to the madness by looking at official supplementary material outside of the manga that is supplementary to it, I will avoid material supplementary to the anime because the anime is clear on who the strongest Buu is.
Chouzenshuu 1 (Daizenshuu 2) states: “Although he places his hopes on the next generation, the one who defeated the strongest-in-the-universe Buu was Goku, revived with the Elder Kaiōshins life.” and later Goku vs Kid Buu fight "The universe’s strongest enemy was defeated, and peace was restored.”,
Dragon Ball Forever: Goku vs Kid Buu “The strongest enemy deserves the utmost respect!” and Goku decides to fight without relying on the Potara. He confronts the powered-up Buu as a Super Saiyan 3!”
Dragon Ball: Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume calls Kid Buu "the strongest enemy"
Supplementary material is once again consistent on who the strongest Buu is.
Part 5: Goku
With all of this said, where does Goku scale? Clearly the common line of reasoning is faulty, if Goku was close to Kid Buu, then he's significantly stronger than we originally thought. Thanfully we have evidence for this too. The first is that we have to acnowledge that Goku wasn't actually ablet to beat Buu at any point.
Daizenshuu 2 confirms this, stating under the Goku vs Kid Buu fight "Not even a full power Goku can defeat him"
January 1996’s issue of V-Jump states: “Even Super Saiyan 3 Goku can barely hold his own against Buu.”
Weekly Shōnen Jump 1995 Issue 16 on page 442, it states, “Buu’s attacks have no blind spots!! Does Goku have a way to turn the tide from this overwhelming disadvantage!?”
Many other sources like the super exciting guide and forever state that they were equally matched, but none state that Goku was above Kid Buu at any point. This is also supported by the evidence from the peaceful world saga and Dragon Ball Daima.
In Daima Goku states that he trained for SS4 because he needed to get stronger after the fight with Kid Buu.
Kaioshin also states in episode 7 for Goku when asked how strong he is "As far as I know, the strongest in the Universe"
Chapter 518 of the manga, talking to Mr. Satan Goku states this referring to Uub
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.” when he says Boo he is refering to Good Buu, and the someone besides them is Uub. This means that Goku after 10 years of training still isn't sure if he can beat Buu. Canonically this would mean he isn't sure he would beat him after unlocking ultra instinct and everything but I'm not making that claim as this was stated back in 1995.
Then Goku tells Buu to rig the matches so Goku and Uub are paired
Goku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…”
Vegeta's attitude towards Goku and the whole narrative heavily imply he is the strongest Z warrior. Daima which takes place roughly a year after the Buu saga states in the opening “This man, Son Goku, may appear gentle, but is the most powerful warrior in the universe!” this is an introduction to Daima, its reintroducing Goku to the audience and not supposed to be introducing any new information. Goku is also obviously treated as the strongest fighter in the beginning of DBS as he is the one to fight Beerus.
Vegeta also states during the carnival episode
"He defeated Majin Buu, and should have become the undisputed superior fighter, yet he keeps training."
Chapter 510, watching Goku fight Kid Buu, Vegeta states
"Hang in there Kakarot, you are number one!!!" this is in reference to Goku's power
Page 16 of Akira Toriyama: The World of Dragon Ball reads “In the midst of a deadly battle with Majin Buu, the proud Vegeta finally acknowledged Goku’s strength—a valuable and memorable scene.”
Dragon Ball Forever “He finally acknowledges Goku’s strength,” and “Even though he acknowledges Goku as number one, he dreams of surpassing him one day…”
Daizenshuu 4 "Always of a kind-hearted nature and the strongest person in the universe. Indeed, Goku is number one!"
Daizenshuu 2 "The only one who can fight Buu is Goku!"
Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods Special Booklet, it states: “Several years after the battle with Majin Buu, familiar characters all gather together! The reason the story is set after the Majin Buu arc is that it’s a time when ‘the core members are all together, and Goku and the others have become almost perfectly strong.’ Their hairstyles and clothing (and thus their appearances) have changed, but their strength doesn’t seem to have changed all that much compared to the time of the Majin Buu arc.” and then
Le Manga de Légende calls Goku the “strongest hero” in Issue 4 on page 4
Vjump in 2019 also released a statement comparing the different forms of Buu, the description for Buuhan was: "Buu took advantage of an opening to absorb Gohan. He gained strength equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku. His outfit also changed to resemble a martial artist’s gi."
Most Japanese speakers have stated that due to the grammar in the sentence that the text is saying Buuhan as a whole is equal to SS3 Goku, but even if it claimed Gohan=Goku it still undermines the assumption that Goku was weaker than Super Buu.
From all of this we can conclude that Goku was indeed the strongest character at the end of the Buu saga (not counting Buu who is dead and Vegito)
Part 6: Where did Goku get this power?
It is never explained how nor when Goku so strong, even if the evidence that he did is clear. I will be offering some explanations, though all of them are speculative and none of them have conclusive evidence. It is a fact that Goku wasn't this strong while standing in front of Buutenks and Buuhan, probably not inside of Super Buu either, meaning this power boost came right before he fought Kid Buu, during the fight or most likely both. Simply put Goku has plot armor and Saiyans get stronger as they fight. While we all know that Saiyans get stronger from near death expiriences, it is also a fact that characters in Dragon Ball, especially Saiyans, get stronger during combat. It is heavily implied that Ninja Kurasaki and General White were stronger than Sergeant Metallic, even though Goku struggled with him more than them, meaning this has been a theme from the early days of DB and wasn't introduced in Super post BOG.
Daizenshuu 4 states for Saiyans “The stronger the opponent you fight, the stronger you become."
Stated by Vegeta during chapter 257 "Fuhahaha…! We Saiyans grow stronger each time we fight…! The stronger the opponent, the stronger we become…So I’m becoming stronger too…! I almost died on Earth, and have now vastly powered up…!"
chapter 295 "We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…” These two is refering to Gohan and Krillin who isn't a Saiyan.
All of this evidence cannot be ignored just because Goku said he can't beat Buu while inside of his body. I will not be trying to argue against Goku's statement because even if it was proven that his size was the only factor, we still have loads of evidence of Goku being weaker than Buutenks and Buuhan before him. Goku was obviously not stronger than Gohan prior to fighting Kid Buu, but as the evidence overwhelmingly shows, that changed at some point and was later explained by Toriyama trough Vegeta's dialogue calling him number one, the only one who can fight Buu etc. and which was confirmed by basically every major supplementary source.
The current text is fine, stating Goku was able to push his limits.
Part 7: The Anime
Takao Koyama has stated on X that “Scriptwriters are not permitted to make revisions that would conflict with the original work’s setting” and during the production of the anime Toriyama and his editors had significant involvement in it's production since the beginning of Z. You can read more about this here to understand that the anime was an attempt at a faithful adaptation:
Rumor Guide - Akira Toriyama Had No Part In Filler | Kanzenshuu
Kanzenshuu provides the back history, context, and facts behind the rumor that Akira Toriyama had nothing to do with TV series filler material
www.kanzenshuu.com
Also check out https://www.youtube.com/@forgottenrelics1197 he has many videos explaining the history of production of DB
This means that the anime's statements on things happening in the manga are accurate, especially when they are repeatedly stated like Goku and Kid Buu being the strongest. I will not be including any here, you can find many just by searching or looking at the Toei section on this website, which shouldn't really be a separate category, as the anime was supposed to follow the manga, filler contradictions are simply retconned by the manga, and many aren't accepted by fans even in the anime continuity just because they don't like them, like King Kai and the all knowing narrator stating that Frieza in his second form had enough power to destroy the universe.
One of the many criticisms of the Toei section on this website was the inclusion of movies in scaling as if they were a single continuity. While that is of course not true, no Z movie is canon, movies are based on the manga, they follow the canon continuity up until that point and only diverge because the manga was still ongoing and the movie makers sadly weren't able to see the future. That is to say the entire idea of movie scaling is bogus, props to you guys for keeping movies as evidence. Even is something isn't canon, it can be used as evidence for canon.
“As for the setting and continuity [of the movies], we based things on the developments in the manga at the time of writing. If there were any planned setting changes in the manga, there was a rule that we couldn’t depict them in the movies ahead of the manga. There wasn’t enough time to fully flesh out every detail of the enemy characters’ settings, so we wrote them in line with the broad, commonly accepted continuity (as of when the TV episodes aired).”
“This is the first theatrical Dragon Ball Z film, featuring Goku as an adult with his son Gohan. Up through the previous movies, the Dragon Ball films used the same characters as the original story but were created as parallel worlds to the TV series. However, starting with this film, the movies became original episodes that also connect to the television continuity.”
Even if major differences and contradictions exist, the anime was based on the manga and movies were based on the anime and the manga by extension. Even if movies are not canon and anime filler is often completely retconned by the manga later (even having whole non canon arcs), they depict content and what if stories that are based on the manga.
Both the Z anime and Kai which is supposed to be a more faithful adaptation are clear that Kid Buu and Goku are the strongest. Kai kept almost all of those lines in the original Z anime, they are referencing canon content and therefore can be accepted as secondary evidence to support Kid Buu being the strongest. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that Toei ignored Toriyama's canon not once but twice, and has been doing so for over 30 years at this point, and made an exception for Kid Buu only, it ignores statements from Toei officials and of Sheueisha.
Also don't try to use Koyama's X statements as proof for Buuhan. Koyama is not Toriyama, he wasn't the anime screenwriter when Kid Buu appeared, he has stated multiple times that he is not the guy to ask and that all questions should have been forwarded to the original creator, that Toriyama didn't approve of his statements and that they are only his personal opinion. He has stated many questionable and contradictory things over the years, like Broly being the strongest in Z, which is contradicted by basically every official source there is which are unanimous that the title of the strongest in Z belongs to Vegito.
Part 8: Real life
Why? Why would Toriyama make the final villain of his masterpiece weaker than 5 forms before him? Why not make him the strongest one yet? If he did want that, would it have passed editorial review? Why is every piece of dragon ball media outside of the manga unanimous on who is the strongest? Are they all conspiring against Toriyama or something? Many questions but no answers.
Part 9: The conclusions
This post doesn't have the goal of altering tiering, but altering parts of text inside the reasoning for scaling of certain characters. Kid Buu is listed before Super Buu on Majin Buu's page, he should be listed as the final form. Super Buu's speed also states that he "should be faster than his Kid Buu self", no paragraph exists explaining Goku's immense power boost against Kid Buu when one should exist. If there's anything else from this wall of text that can be concluded then please feel free to, I will expand on certain points if necessary, though I can't promise to be quick on that, I am very busy. Though the itch of seeing so many people so wrong about something I used to care about deeply when I was a kid (and still do, Dragon Ball ftw, I listen to Goku's SS3 theme in the gym) is stronger than my desire to use my time intelligently. Edit: Writing this I have noticed that in the month or so after I wrote the first request, both Kid Buu's and Goku's pages were changed, Goku's is basically done, but Majin Buu's still needs work. Kid Buu is still listed below Super Buu. Also revisions should be done on the pages of other characters, for example Gohan's description states that he's surpassed SS3 Gotenks who is stronger than SS3 Goku. A more accurate description should mentioned that this is referencing Goku prior to fighting Kid Buu.
If you don't consider parts of this text as acceptable evidence (like Weekly shonen jump scans, or mentioning anime) just ignore those parts. The text has plenty of manga exclusive evidence inside as it is.
EDIT: I noticed that the other person didn't have any images in their request, so I will not be posting any myself unless necessary for revisions, but I have listed the exact source for every claim so you can check yourselves. Herms' strength checker can be found here: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15488
