JJK: Large Mountain level+ God Tiers - Dabura KE Scaling

[M3X_2.0]

The near-lightspeed range isn't arbitrary in the way you're all framing it. This is a standard that has been in use for years, and it was accepted by staff when this calc was evaluated and approved, at that point it became accepted methodology, not an ongoing community debate. Retroactively challenging a standard that has been established for years and was used in an already accepted calc is a separate discussion, not an argument against the calc itself. Not everything has to be a written rule somewhere in the wiki, as we've had some standards that were just common knowledge among people who make calculations.

And the range is physically grounded anyway. Dabura is explicitly established to have reached the speed of light, meaning he passed through every velocity below it. We aren't pulling 75% and 93% out of nowhere. 75% represents a conservative lower bound for what 'near lightspeed' reasonably means, and 93% is the site's accepted ceiling for KE purposes. The uncertainty isn't in whether he hit those speeds, it's just in where exactly within that range he was during the run. That's a far cry from arbitrary.

I'm done for now. I agree with KE and the speeds choosen, since I obviously accepted the calculation in the first place.

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay, listen. I don't know the verse, I've just been asked to weigh in on the validity of using the KE calc specifically. And my verdict is that this is one of the most obviously, most clearly, most unarguably usable KE feats I've ever seen.

What our KE standards are meant to prevent is "9-A character throws a rock at 0.5c speeds and barely cracks a wall, verse is rated as 7-C". What they are meant to permit is feats where KE is shown to actually work properly and portrayed at least semi-correctly. So if a verse is going out of its way to realistically depict relativistic speeds, physics behaving oddly, air resistance and all - it's already doing better than 99% of fiction of this website in that regard.

Furthermore, even if we want to ignore all of that and simply focus on the perceived "inconsistency"... that doesn't really exist. The calc is only 7-C, sure, but that isn't the full extent of the destruction shown and furthermore one must remind themselves that our calculations are never exact. They're rough estimates that don't and can't take into account a lot of the physics going on in something like this. You're not taking into account the way energy would transfer, potential inaccuracies in the pixel scaling or artwork, the energy going much deeper into the ground than calculated, and so on.

To reiterate, the "a feat's visuals must be consistent" rule exists to ensure that any KE calc is indeed a feat and not just an accidental byproduct of something happening fast. If a 7-A kick can't smash through walls, then that's an inconsistency. If a 7-A kick causes widespread destruction as it should then that's evidence that it's being treated right, even if the result is a magnitude or two off.

That's all. I don't have any opinions on the scaling or applicability. Have a nice day.

 

[Armorchompy]

(For the record, I'm not sure what our stance is on accelerating to light speed, because technically any FTL feat would be calculable as 93% SoL KE, which I don't think we permit, but this is a bit of a strange case. I'd personally lean towards the 75% light speed end. With that said, Dabura's probably heavier than 89 kg, he's got a wide, muscular build and he's really tall. As the first comparison that comes to mind, Mike Tyson was 178 cm tall and around 98 kg. He's probably not the best reference but it gets the point across)

 

[Tago238]

Was allowed to comment by Armourchompy.

I think I generally agree with some of the durability arguments here, specifically because Gege as a writer has acknowledged stuff about the defensive capabilities necessary to go at that speed and Dabura did actually say he was accelerating and everything. RKE seems pretty blatant otherwise ig.

As for the calc itself, since Armour asked me about it on discord, the panel in which Dabura's supposedly relativistic effects are being shown have a few weird things going on. Number 1 is of course the afterimages, obviously this isn't founded in any particular relativistic effect but I suppose you could explain it as just being... well, afterimages. The whole world is moving so fast he's seeing it as duplicated or something, sure. The other weird thing is the fact that there are two rows of Mahoraga's... one of which has his back turned. It is true that you don't actually see length contraction as objects being compressed, but rather elongated if it's moving towards you, contracted if it is moving away and (most key here) rotated if it's passing by (this is called the Terrell effect btw). However, the other issue with this beyond the ones mentioned (such as the fact that the rotation is still visible for the not close Mahoragas, and doesn't even seem any different for that matter) is that said rotation should only be 90 degrees, a full 180 degree rotation doesn't make sense for even one second when you think about it. I kinda wonder if the last part came from Yuji and Gege looking up videos like the one linked in the OP of this thread and adapted them a bit weirdly.

For something that is usable, there's the fact that the light in front of Dabura becomes much more intense. Assuming it got 100 times more intense (which is a fairly reasonable estimate given what we see), he would have been 0.911c. However, I feel it would be remiss to bring up an optical relativistic effect without bringing up the fact that all light ought to be blueshifted out of the visible spectrum by 0.59c. I suppose there is the fact that sorcerers can see wavelengths normal humans can't? If we go by 0.59c the light intensity should have only increased by around 1.97x.

That's about all I think there is to say, obviously you can just make the point that given the quantity of "near light" statements plus the fact that Dabura was trying to "catch up" to light, being shown almost racing these beams, it's probably supposed to be 0.7- 0.9 ish but what I've described is the most you can actually get from the visuals.

 

[Dalesean027]

This is pretty textbook KE and they go out of their way be detailed about it, I don't understand the deliberation about it

 

[Dalesean027]

Also the entire notion that the 7-C+ calc is a contradiction is very goofy considering 1 it doesn't truly capture the full extent of the destruction but also secondly it actually is lowballed if anything and to the absolute upmost degree. You do realize the scope of what was caught in the actual resulting fallout of the explosion from his relativistic kick vaped everything all the way to the edge of its range so truth be told ISL should logically be applied here reaching all the way to the edge of the blast.

That's another thing already the calc goes with pulverization already which like sure its fine but given the presentation I wouldn't be opposed to vape since its clearly high heat involved in the resulting explosion with vapor and such being left afterwards. That said though be it pulv or vape this should be an order of magnitude higher due to ISL from the power of the explosion/shockwave even at its edge being able to delete buildings still sooo truly the whole use of the "destruction value contradicts the KE" argument falls apart from that fact alone ignoring the fact that its not the accepted end to begin with.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Going to point out since M3X linked my sandbox before it was put into a blog, I did put the calc into a blog and he accepted it so there is that. Just saying in case someone says that it's just a sandbox and not an accepted blog or something.

Other than that though I'm mostly in agreement with the thread. Kind of iffy on scaling it to the others but for the most part I think it's fine.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Like Armor said, I feel Dabura is definitely much heavier than 89.6 kg, especially with how muscular he is, and guys of similar height and physique like Lebron James weigh over 100 kilos.

I feel it's better to just properly calc his weight instead of going off of an assumption.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I feel it's better to just properly calc his weight instead of going of an assumption.

It would probably depend on what averages you use. The world average for weight is 62 kg and pretty sure this site uses 1.71 for male height so if we go by that and using the 2.03 m metric the OG calc uses, Dabura would be around:

(2.03/1.71)^3*62 = 103.726917524 kg

That would alter the results to 4.772e18 J and 16.04e18 J respectively

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Also I feel getting Dabura's height by scaling him to Mahoraga is a bit better than comparing to some door. Cause I'm not sure what kinda door the calc is referring, and japanese sliding doors vary in size from what I can tell.

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fdaburah-is-very-tall-v0-uhi9upf5im9g1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D1127%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dc7effda5b17caf3bd9b606c38cee6d4889de9a60

 

[Qurbonboev]

Also I feel getting Dabura's height by scaling him to Mahoraga is a bit better than comparing to some door

Afaik Mahoraga varies in size dramatically during fight. It's better to measure his height like this.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Afaik Mahoraga varies in size dramatically during fight. It's better to measure his height like this.

Does he though? I recall he's only like a head taller than Dabura usually.

But regardless, better to just go off of that calc for height instead since it's already there.

 

[KingTempest]

We in a thread tryna talk about if durability scales to AP and if people can scale to a god of an alien race pushing himself and you mfs over here questioning if we can calc his mass higher bro we got priorities

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

We in a thread tryna talk about if durability scales to AP and if people can scale to a god of an alien race pushing himself and you mfs over here questioning if we can calc his mass higher bro we got priorities

I mean, that does lead into the very calc this whole thread is predicated on. It's not like it's an unimportant aspect of it and better to go with what would be more accurate for the actual calc.

Also just noticed the calc itself doesn't give how the 89.6 kg or 2.03 m values were attained/sources for it so that may be an issue. @ElJoaki5 just going to ping you to clarify those if you could.

 

[Buraqibear]

That doesn't work because Mahoraga already started adapting to Dabura's near-lightspeed physical attacks on the first page here. Which is why Dabura remarked on him adapting to simple brute force. If Dabura hadn't clipped Mahoraga in the first page and given him the chance to adapt, it's possible he could've entirely destroyed Mahoraga with his kick.

Permision granted by @Dalesean027
That doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just means Mahoraga got stronger or at least more durable, enough to survive the kick without getting completely vaporized. But it was still weaker than Dabura's dura seeing how Dabura took far less damage from the explosion. Mahoraga adapts to abilities by developing a counter-measure or immunity to the Cursed Energy and Technique, it adapts to physical stats by getting stronger. We didn't see it awaken any new ability or anything about it be different when it started dominating the fight against Dabura.

The Mahoraga in Gojo vs Sukuna was, as I've stated, strong enough to survive a Black Flash (2.5x boost) from Gojo without serious injury while before adapting Gojo was certain a single Red (a 2x boost) would destroy it completely. That Mahoraga is pretty clearly far more durable than the one in Modulo

Also I saw some guy say Mahoraga's wheel adapts too. There is no reason why it should, adapting to all phenomena is Mahoraga's ability, the wheel isn't a part of Mahoraga's body at all and it's durability isn't the same as Mahoraga, Sukuna's fuga completely destroyed Mahoraga but the wheel was left completely unfazed. We see the wheel fade into Shadow separately from Mahoraga. Even if we say the wheel adapted, that still doesn't help the case at all, in fact it only strengthens my argument of Gojo and Sukuna scaling to it

The Mahoraga Dabura fought was not only inferior to Dabura himself in durability yet still managed to survive the kick and it's blast at point blank range, as well as it's wheel being left completely unharmed but Gojo's Purple hit the wheel and a stronger, tougher Mahoraga from farther away and still completely annihilated both it and the wheel while Sukuna could survive that explosion at a similar if not closer distance, and Sukuna's body would've, again, taken in far more energy than the wheel.

Essentially, Sukuna survives a Purple which destroyed a stronger Mahoraga and it's wheel than the one in Modulo which survives the light speed kick with it's wheel remaining relatively unharmed (though you could make an argument that it looks charred and burnt and that Mahoraga and the wheel were closer since they do seem to be than Sukuna) at a closer distance than Purple.

On a different note, @LaserPrecision pointed this out to me, that on the Wiki page for Kinetic Energy the following is stated.

The relativistic kinetic energy value is only accepted up to 4 times the Newtonian value: The kinetic energy value calculated using the formula for relativistic kinetic energy is only accepted to the point where it is 4 times as high as the value of Newtonian kinetic energy. That is the case, if the speed of the moving object is above 93% of the speed of light. For kinetic energy values above that, which are not faster than light, 4 times the kinetic energy value should be taken.

Dabura's leg busts because he reaches the speed of light, which his body can't handle so he is going higher than 93% the speed of light at some point. But as the page states, we can use Kinetic Energy that is up to 4 times that of the Newtonian Kinetic Energy, using this equation 4 = 1/sqrt(1-A^2/1^2) we can find that the the RKE 4 times higher than KE is at roughly 0.968246c, which would end up bumping the result up a little further, into Island level ranges.

 

[Floxy178]

Dabura's leg busts because he reaches the speed of light, which his body can't handle so he is going higher than 93% the speed of light at some point. But as the page states, we can use Kinetic Energy that is up to 4 times that of the Newtonian Kinetic Energy, using this equation 4 = 1/sqrt(1-A^2/1^2) we can find that the the RKE 4 times higher than KE is at roughly 0.968246c, which would end up bumping the result up a little further, into Island level ranges.

We don't limit gamma to 4, we limit difference between newtonian value and relativistic being 4x, which happens when gamma is around 2.7 or something. It's not something affecting speed anyway, you can still use speed higher than 0.93c but you'll use 4x of Newtonian value.

 

[Armorchompy]

For something that is usable, there's the fact that the light in front of Dabura becomes much more intense. Assuming it got 100 times more intense (which is a fairly reasonable estimate given what we see), he would have been 0.911c. However, I feel it would be remiss to bring up an optical relativistic effect without bringing up the fact that all light ought to be blueshifted out of the visible spectrum by 0.59c. I suppose there is the fact that sorcerers can see wavelengths normal humans can't? If we go by 0.59c the light intensity should have only increased by around 1.97x.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the fact that he can see at all is good implication he doesn't need to worry about blueshifting, right? (Or just as likely, that the authors didn't wanna portray it, which makes enough sense)

If so I think 0.911 would be a good value to use. Though admittedly the x100 thing is kind of a random guess, so I dunno.

 

[Tago238]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the fact that he can see at all is good implication he doesn't need to worry about blueshifting, right? (Or just as likely, that the authors didn't wanna portray it, which makes enough sense)

If so I think 0.911 would be a good value to use. Though admittedly the x100 thing is kind of a random guess, so I dunno.

1000 lumens for a dark cloudy day vs 100,000 lumens for a high performance flashlight was why I used the scale I did.

 

[ElJoaki5]

I mean, that does lead into the very calc this whole thread is predicated on. It's not like it's an unimportant aspect of it and better to go with what would be more accurate for the actual calc.

Also just noticed the calc itself doesn't give how the 89.6 kg or 2.03 m values were attained/sources for it so that may be an issue. @ElJoaki5 just going to ping you to clarify those if you could.

Yeah sure Ill change the height and mass soon

 

[Armorchompy]

1000 lumens for a dark cloudy day vs 100,000 lumens for a high performance flashlight was why I used the scale I did.

Makes sense

 

[ElJoaki5]

Yeah sure Ill change the height and mass soon

Ive changed what youve asked me to change (and skibidi nuked the destruction method part while at it now that theres a calc for it)

 

[Tllmbrg]

Hey for the recalc, wouldn't it be better to use Dabura standing next to a regular woman to find his height? (From chapter 10)

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Hey for the recalc, wouldn't it be better to use Dabura standing next to a regular woman to find his height? (From chapter 10)

Scaling her off the average height for a woman in Japan (1.586 m), he'd be 2.143 m. Doing the same thing as last time:

(2.143/1.71)^3*62 = 122.030916062 kg (5.614e18 J and 1.887e19 J respectively)

I guess it would depend on what height everyone thinks would be best to use.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'd prefer using the pic Tllmbrg posted, it's always better to directly scale a character's height rather than do multiple jumps to get it. 210ish cm also feels more in line with that panel of him bonking his horns against a doorframe.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Scaling her off the average height for a woman in Japan (1.586 m), he'd be 2.143 m. Doing the same thing as last time:

(2.143/1.71)^3*62 = 122.030916062 kg (5.614e18 J and 1.887e19 J respectively)

I guess it would depend on what height everyone thinks would be best to use.

Sure the 2.5 m seemed excessive, its changed again.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Also on the note of his weight, he has massive horns, so might be worth adding their weight.

Goat Horn For Power Chewers — Crazy Critterz Toy Box

Single protein tough chew for power chewers. Goat horns Australian made from Australian Goats. Great value for money long lasting chew. Healthy pet treat dog treats. No additives or preservatives.Fully consumable Crazy Critterz Tough chews Medium and Large Horns with Marrow

www.crazycritterztoybox.com.au

Seems like large horn goat weigh between 1 to 1.5 kilogram, and I'd probably go with the higher end. It's not a lot, but considering the type of calc every bit of mass adds a decent amount of energy.
I'd maybe like also slap an extra half kilogram off his weird ears + clothing as well.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Since we finally concluded with validity of Calc itself, we could go back to other important questions:
1. Would Dabura dura scale to his AP? After all he managed to hard stop himself and back down right after causing kick.
2. Who else should scale to Dabura? In my opinion at least Modulo Yuji should scale to him, since he was certain that he could take care of situation if Yuka dies. And it was after witnessing Dabura kick(that vaporised everything in 2 km radius).

 

[BiggestOpp]

Since we finally concluded with validity of Calc itself, we could go back to other important questions:

1. Would Dabura dura scale to his AP? After all he managed to hard stop himself and back down right after causing kick.

I’ve seen it mentioned that Dabura’s actual destruction of the city doesn’t account for ISL. That should probably be done first because there’s no question about whether that scales to his durability or not.
I still don’t believe there’s solid grounds for him scaling to his KE.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I’ve seen it mentioned that Dabura’s actual destruction of the city doesn’t account for ISL

Already done.
For people that disagree with scaling his dura to his KE, there is a proposal from me:
He caused explosion by kicking Mahoraga with his leg, so rest of his body should have been fairly close to epicenter of explosion. Most of his body was relatively fine, so it should be viable to calc his dura via ISL method.

 

[ElJoaki5]

1. Would Dabura dura scale to his AP? After all he managed to hard stop himself and back down right after causing kick.

We are not trying to scale Dabura to his kick, please.

 

[Qurbonboev]

We are not trying to scale Dabura to his kick, please.

My bad, I meant to say "would Dabura dura scale to his KE". There are some staff and regular users disagreeing with such line of scaling. So this question should be taken care off.

After all he managed to hard stop himself and back down right after causing kick.

This in particular meant "right before kick itself he was at the point of having highest speed and thus KE. And he was able to safely hard stop and back down from Mahoraga, which means he was able to nullify all KE in short amount of time

 

[BiggestOpp]

Already done.

No offense but that’s the worse calc I’ve ever seen, if I’m understanding it properly

For people that disagree with scaling his dura to his KE, there is a proposal from me:
He caused explosion by kicking Mahoraga with his leg, so rest of his body should have been fairly close to epicenter of explosion. Most of his body was relatively fine, so it should be viable to calc his dura via ISL method.

I personally don’t see a problem with this for now

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

No offense but that’s the worse calc I’ve ever seen, if I’m understanding it properly

You haven't seen enough calcs cause there's way worse

Also want to discuss it or nah? Preferably in dms or wall or something if so as to not clutter this thread any further

 

[Armorchompy]

Commented on the ISL calc, I don't think vape is right.

 

[BiggestOpp]

You haven't seen enough calcs cause there's way worse

Also want to discuss it or nah? Preferably in dms or wall or something if so as to not clutter this thread any further

I left a comment on your wall. It could be possible that I’m misunderstanding the calc.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

I'm not weighing in on anything yet, but I saw one of the scans, and it confused me a tinsy bit.
In the Tengen Modulo Volume 2 promo video, she says:

"両面スクナ以来の特急事案だからば, ダブラ・カラバ," which is translated as:
"It's a special grade case on the level of Ryomen Sukuna, Dabura Karaba." (Also why the hell was Tsurugi called "Okkotsu Maken" in the other translation?? )

From my (admittedly limited) knowledge, she's more saying something similar to:

"(Because it's) A special grade case/incident not seen since Ryomen Sukuna, Dabura Karaba."

It's more trying to say that Dabura is the first special grade incident/case since Sukuna, rather than suggesting that Dabura is a special grade case equal to Sukuna, not too big of a difference but notable no? I'm not trying to dismiss anything or argue anything; it just felt like it was worth pointing out?

 

[Dalesean027]

I'm not weighing in on anything yet, but I saw one of the scans, and it confused me a tinsy bit.
In the Tengen Modulo Volume 2 promo video, she says:

"両面スクナ以来の特急事案だからば, ダブラ・カラバ," which is translated as:
"It's a special grade case on the level of Ryomen Sukuna, Dabura Karaba." (Also why the hell was Tsurugi called "Okkotsu Maken" in the other translation?? )

From my (admittedly limited) knowledge, she's more saying something similar to:

"(Because it's) A special grade case/incident not seen since Ryomen Sukuna, Dabura Karaba."

It's more trying to say that Dabura is the first special grade incident/case since Sukuna, rather than suggesting that Dabura is a special grade case equal to Sukuna, not too big of a difference but notable no?. I'm not trying to dismiss anything or argue anything; it just felt like it was worth pointing out?

Not to be that guy but have you gotten permission to post? This is a staff thread

 

[KingTempest]

Not to be that guy but have you gotten permission to post? This is a staff thread

He didn't, but I'll give him open permission just to keep that message up

 

[Maitreya12]

Got permission from @KingTempest to comment.

Scaling wise I don’t think characters like Sukuna and Gojo should scale to Dabura, especially not Dabura’s light speed running values.

The statement regarding Dabura being a Sukuna level threat was made prior to anything was known about him regarding his technique. They’re assuming based on Dabura’s presence that he’s a Sukuna level threat. What this means is that Jujutsu society viewed Sukuna as the baseline for Dabura’s strength. They take one look at Dabura and say he’s at least as strong. However if what Dabura later demonstrates goes above what Sukuna has previously been shown to do, that doesn’t mean that Sukuna was henceforth actually stronger, it means that Dabura went above the baseline of strength they assumed he was.

Sukuna wouldn’t be upscaled because Dabura would’ve just went beyond the set level of strength they assumed that Dabura was. That assumption was made based on knowing nothing about Dabura or his capabilities which is why it’s subject to adjustments. Even Dabura himself admits he’s hardly had to apply himself before so it’s natural for the outside people looking in to not know his true level of strength. And no statement exists comparing Dabura to Sukuna after the fight with Mahoraga to my knowledge as well.

Moreover, light speed kick by Dabura happens after Dabura awakens his warrior mentality and shows a noticeable increase in stats by shattering Mahoraga’s blade that was just beating on him moment prior. And the specific application of light speed movement by Dabura is one in which he’s pushing himself to further heights as a warrior, in fact his whole light speed movement is attempting to reach the realm of the warriors. All this to say that Dabura’s post awakened state should be scaled higher than his pre-awakened state which includes his light speed kick which would further distinguish him from Sukuna scaling to him.

As a final little tidbit to bring up. If the value for Dabura’s light speed kick is increased based on his height and weight (I saw someone post another picture that scaled his height to about 230cm) and if Yuji is also scaling to Dabura’s KE value, then their rating may actually change to island level instead of large mountain level, especially with the added 20% increase in value that Yuji’s black flash amp would allow for.