Dragon Ball Heroes Revision Part #N

[Vietthai96]

Finally have time to do my own wank thing. Nah seriously i don't remember what part anymore. Anyway thing is very simple wank

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_(Games)_Terminology#Logic_(Reason)

Well very simple: Logic Manipulation for DBH multiverse, specifically Time Power and Dark Factor (though Dark Factor will kind of semi-combat applicable)

Now address some potential counter-arguments: It is just time paradox

Now while it is true that it is time paradox, but time paradox is simply a consequence of manipulating the underlying logic/reason of space-time as it is shown in the terminology page; it is also even explained that Logic/Reason actually prior to and underlies and shapes causality and physical possibilities. And DontTalk also stated that if X feat is simply a consequence of manipulating underlying logic then it still qualifies.

Wait, i remembered that if time paradox was simply consequence of manipulating underlying logic then it is still qualify as logic hax?

We would also accept creating a fire ball as logic manipulation, if it's sufficiently clearly established to be done by manipulating logic. But then the act of creating the fireball is no evidence towards the ability being logic manipulation.
You would need an explanation like "Just holding out your hand won't create a fireball. However, he used his power over logic to make it so that holding out his hand would from now on both create and not create a fireball. He held out his hand and nothing happened, yet something happened. A fireball spawned before him out of nothing."
So yeah, you could have time paradox creation by means of logic manipulation, but things in the style of "it's a time paradox. That logically makes no sense!" isn't going to get you there.

Secondly, Logic/Reason shapes timelines/histories, which are shown on the page, and timelines/histories contain both existent and nonexistent space-time (World of Void), there is also existent and nonexistent history. Existence and Nonexistence is logical duality. Which means Logic/Reason of Space-Time in the verse also ground the logical duality of space-time as well

Agree:

Neutral:

Disagree: Planck69 Theglassman12

 

[Vietthai96]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Dereck03

Anyway since this topic is kind of obscure, I will just ping guys who are probably interested in this topic early. Sorry for the ping though

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well since I have already read and know the arguments i agree

 

[Mbpoops]

Seems fine

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright to me.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Hm... this makes sense to me.

 

[Noobish2006]

if this works it seems very easy to get logic manip maybe too easy

does this not make the acasulity rule almost irrelevant?

 

[Vietthai96]

if this works it seems very easy to get logic manip maybe too easy

Not really, logic needs to involve rational deduction, paradox, contradiction.

 

[Noobish2006]

Not really, logic needs to involve rational deduction, paradox, contradiction.

since the logic page says it very much limited to doing what is shown, what capabilities would this logic manip do in a fight?

 

[Vietthai96]

since the logic page says it very much limited to doing what is shown, what capabilities would this logic manip do in a fight?

this applies to every ability

 

[AlexSamDen]

I think DT should be called to evaluate this, as they're the most knowledgeable Staff in terms of Logic Manipulation

Especially since this is one of the first threads adding LM and might therefore serve as basis for future additions in other fandoms

As such, we need to have a clear conclusion, do as to avoid future confusions

 

[Noobish2006]

this applies to every ability

im not asking who gets it i'm talking application effects they can produce the limitations of their logic manip

 

[Lort15]

Alien X logic manip when viet

 

[Vietthai96]

I think DT should be called to evaluate this, as they're the most knowledgeable Staff in terms of Logic Manipulation

Especially since this is one of the first threads adding LM and might therefore serve as basis for future additions in other fandoms

As such, we need to have a clear conclusion, do as to avoid future confusions

I asked him three times in his own thread and he just didn't care to evaluate, that why i need to make a separate thread

im not asking who gets it i'm talking application effects they can poduce the limitations of their logic manip

i honestly don't understand what you mean at this point

 

[Thermor]

I asked him three times in his own thread and he just didn't care to evaluate, that why i need to make a separate thread


i honestly don't understand what you mean at this point

I think he was trying to ask what the logic manipulation can be used for. Like erasure, time manip, reality warping, etc.

 

[Noobish2006]

i honestly don't understand what you mean at this point

"By its very nature Logic Manipulation can, with sufficient evidence, pose an exception to virtually any rule we have. In exchange, Logic Manipulation is much more tightly bound to exactly what it is said and shown to do. As Logic Manipulation by its very nature violates deductive reasoning, one can only do a very limited amount of such reasoning based on it. Typically one is limited directly to the explanations of the verse regarding what it can do and can not extrapolate any further, even if seemingly sensible."

it can only do what is shown what are u saying it can do ?

 

[Vietthai96]

Especially since this is one of the first threads adding LM

Iirc, there was already some threads about LM before mine

might therefore serve as basis for future additions in other fandoms

what basis?

I think he was trying to ask what the logic manipulation can be used for. Like erasure, time manip, reality warping, etc.

• Logic Creation:
• Logic Deletion:
• Paradox Creation:

You mean this

"By its very nature Logic Manipulation can, with sufficient evidence, pose an exception to virtually any rule we have. In exchange, Logic Manipulation is much more tightly bound to exactly what it is said and shown to do. As Logic Manipulation by its very nature violates deductive reasoning, one can only do a very limited amount of such reasoning based on it. Typically one is limited directly to the explanations of the verse regarding what it can do and can not extrapolate any further, even if seemingly sensible."

it can only do what is shown what are u saying it can do ?

Anyway it's for causality & time, which is actually already on Time Power page

 

[AlexSamDen]

I asked him three times in his own thread and he just didn't care to evaluate, that why i need to make a separate thread

One more ping wouldn't hurt.
Just to be safe/certain

 

[AlexSamDen]

Iirc, there was already some threads about LM before mine

"One of"
I didn't see them tho

what basis?

When dealing with a new ability people tend to check previous threads establishing it to get a basic idea of how it should be argued

 

[Noobish2006]

You mean this

no like if one can destory a conept u cant claim they can create one ,logic manip is even more strict so it can only do the specific applications the characters have been directly shown to do what would goku and that be able to use it for it? is it just time paradox negation or what?

 

[Killerdrone123]

no like if one can destory a conept u cant claim they can create one ,logic manip is even more strict so it can only do the specific applications the characters have been directly shown to do what would goku and that be able to use it for it? is it just time paradox negation or what?

Preety much would include manipulating logic related to space time and stuff so you can say this applies to space time haxs of t.p

 

[Noobish2006]

Preety much would include manipulating logic related to space time and stuff so you can say this applies to space time haxs of t.p

ic

 

[Vietthai96]

One more ping wouldn't hurt.
Just to be safe/certain

bro, i pinged him three times and also made multiple posts in his own thread; there's no way he didn't get notification of them. if he don't want to then I can't do anything bruhh, because if he wanted to, he would already evaluated my request which in turn would have made this thread nonexistent

 

[Thermor]

bro, i pinged him three times and also made multiple posts in his own thread; there's no way he didn't get notification of them. if he don't want to then I can't do anything bruhh, because if he wanted to, he would already evaluated my request which in turn would have made this thread nonexistent

Could you ping @Jin2188 then? He and DT are the ones responsible for creating the logic manipulation page.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

This is not logic Manipulation.

When history is affected, in order to both keep the future unchanged and correct the time paradoxes, new timelines will be created to accommodate said new changes. It is also stated that small differences can create many futures, and it was further confirmed by Aios that every different choice splits histories into many others. This shows the logic of how the multiverse operates, by splitting the timeline it can both accommodate new changes brought about by any decision and alteration in history while keeping the future intact, thus avoiding logical contradictions caused by both trying to keep the future intact while correcting the future with new changes.

Nothing here involves any manipulation of the laws of thought or of the way they allow for the formulation of the intelligible. It is simply a process by which time resolves contradictions within its own content.

This is indeed wank.

Logic is defined in the real world as the study of correct reasoning. Translating this to fiction, manipulation of logic would essentially involve manipulating the rules governing deductive reasoning.

 

[Vietthai96]

Could you ping @Jin2188 then? He and DT are the ones responsible for creating the logic manipulation page.

He evaluated my case in DT thread already

Anyway, there was like 5 people in that thread: me, DT, Jin, Agnaa and Ultima

 

[Noobish2006]

He evaluated my case in DT thread already

Anyway, there was like 5 people in that thread: me, DT, Jin, Agnaa and Ultima

did he change stance after this? https://vsbattles.com/threads/logic-manipulation-addition-thread.186965/post-7573425

 

[Vietthai96]

did he change stance after this? https://vsbattles.com/threads/logic-manipulation-addition-thread.186965/post-7573425

he was talking about Beerus, which is not even the point, cause i didn't even try to give Beerus logic hax

 

[Thermor]

did he change stance after this? https://vsbattles.com/threads/logic-manipulation-addition-thread.186965/post-7573425

Right, forgot Jin disagrees with logic manipulation via Beerus.

 

[Thermor]

This is not logic Manipulation.



Nothing here involves any manipulation of the laws of thought or of the way they allow for the formulation of the intelligible. It is simply a process by which time resolves contradictions within its own content.

This is indeed wank.

Berny, Destroyer of Upgrades is here?

Anyway, I think someone should call Jin here to evaluate the whole thing. Currently he only agrees with possibility when Vieth provided the args to him.

 

[Planck69]

Berny makes more sense to me there. Unless there's more to it, this just seems like taking a naming convention to its logical extreme, pun not intended.

 

[Vietthai96]

Right, forgot Jin disagrees with logic manipulation via Beerus.

Of course Beerus get nothing, cause i wasn't even talking him

@Jin2188

Since you want to call him

Nothing here involves any manipulation of the laws of thought or of the way they allow for the formulation of the intelligible. It is simply a process by which time resolves contradictions within its own content.

laws of thought aren't the only thing for logic. Time paradox issue i already asked DT and even in the thread that make Logic hax

2. I know that manipulate math is math hax or time paradox is causality. But what if these "abilities" was achieved by manipulating an underlying logic system? is it qualify for Logic hax

Logic Manipulation, as you point out, is for manipulating logic, not for manipulating other things.

So if, as you say, a character manipulates it, they would get that ability, even if it ends up having other consequences.

This is from Agnaa

Also manipulating laws of thought, like, is high 1-A+ feats

 

[Vietthai96]

Berny makes more sense to me there. Unless there's more to it, this just seems like taking a naming convention to its logical extreme, pun not intended.

Oke i missed this comment cause i'm busy writing the above but it isn't naming convention since it is explained that the Logic/Reason is the ground for time and causality manipulating it causes paradoxes. it would be naming convention if it have no impact and effects

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

laws of thought aren't the only thing for logic.

Logic Manipulation is based entirely on the laws of thought and the interactions they make possible for the formulation of ideas. I have no idea how you intend to argue for Logic Manipulation without the literal foundation of how logic itself works.

Such rules provide the grounding for any deductive inference about the world, and thus for any and all intelligibility whatsoever. As such, they are not, and cannot be, rooted in any laws more fundamental than themselves. Rather, they are the basis for any and all laws, calculation, and relations between phenomena.

Time paradox issue i already asked DT and even in the thread that make Logic hax

All what you’re proposing does is resolve possible temporal paradoxes by creating new timelines.

When history is affected, in order to both keep the future unchanged and correct the time paradoxes, new timelines will be created to accommodate said new changes.

This shows the logic of how the multiverse operates, by splitting the timeline it can both accommodate new changes brought about by any decision and alteration in history while keeping the future intact, thus avoiding logical contradictions caused by both trying to keep the future intact while correcting the future with new changes.

So according to you, any multiverse that works through branching in order to avoid contradictions caused by temporal changes has Logic Manipulation????? Completely nonsensical.

What kind of logic is it manipulating exactly?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Oke i missed this comment cause i'm busy writing the above but it isn't naming convention since it is explained that the Logic/Reason is the ground for time and causality manipulating it causes paradoxes. it would be naming convention if it have no impact and effects

This doesn’t help your case in the slightest.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Also manipulating laws of thought, like, is high 1-A+ feats

I guess Anos and Venuzdonoa are High 1-A+ now. Crazy.

 

[Mbpoops]

I guess Anos and Venuzdonoa are High 1-A+ now. Crazy.

you didnt know?

 

[Vietthai96]

Logic Manipulation is based entirely on the laws of thought and the interactions they make possible for the formulation of ideas. I have no idea how you intend to argue for Logic Manipulation without the literal foundation of how logic itself works.

you just quote like, part of the whole Logic hax page

All what you’re proposing does is resolve possible temporal paradoxes by creating new timelines.

it can overwrite the timeline, not just creating new timelines

So according to you, any multiverse that works through branching in order to avoid contradictions caused by temporal changes has Logic Manipulation????? Completely nonsensical.

What kind of logic is it manipulating exactly?

what? i never said time paradox only is logic hax, or multiverses which branching timelines to solve contradictions are logic hax

I guess Anos and Venuzdonoa are High 1-A+ now. Crazy.

Seems oke to me

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Could you not make any unnecessary comments? This is still the first page but it becomes jarring and vexing for supporters, staff or knowledgable members that want to take a look at a later stage. Following for now

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Didn't we also have a note in logic hax for this

• Alterations to logic should only be listed as Logic Manipulation if truly of a fundamentally logical nature. Changes such as making 1 + 1 = 3 should for instance be listed as Mathematics Manipulation instead, as that is only a logical contradiction if one assumes the axioms of mathematics to be valid. For similar reasons, time paradoxes get listed as Acausality or Causality Manipulation and are not fundamentally considered logical contradictions.

DT explanation doesn't seem to involve this as a possible context since it is talking about things that are not listed as unqualified examples in the notes

Cause after all, the very presence of Acausality or results of causality hax is a contradiction to Time and causality itself