Adding Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 to Instant Death

[Azertyhuuh]

I kindly ask everyone to stay on topic and avoid posting unrelated comments, Also, I am busy, so I will be late in responding to comments.

First, in Sweet Dao’s discussion here about removing this type of conceptual manipulation, his argument relied on the Demon King novel, which has been removed and separated from the Instant Death work. Therefore, the argument he used is no longer valid, and things will return to how they were before.

He mentioned that Yogiri is capable of removing any concept, so Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 will be reinstated.

Conceptual manipulation should also generally be restored for the reasons I mentioned: the Demon King novel has been removed and cannot be used as a reference. Hence, this type will return to its previous state. Furthermore, the work mentions that time and space are part of the heavenly record consumables only, and they can be changed merely by thinking. The heavenly foundation is the vessel, which you could say is the world itself, and it exists on the conceptual level.

This is Sweet Dao’s explanation, and here is my response to it↓

The text literally says that these things are conceptual elements, so they do not necessarily exist in a physical form. They may exist physically in some cases, but not always. This happens only in certain cases, so it does not really negate anything for the rest.

Also, after completing a full reading of the text, the meaning becomes clear. The text mentions: “it does not appear visually,” which explains everything. When it talks about some elements in a physical form, it does not mean they are physical—it means they are visible, as clarified in the same line. The point is that some of these elements may appear visually only, but we must not forget they are conceptual. In other words, some may be visible (able to be seen) but not physical, and that is all. Therefore, everything will return to the way it was.

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Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Aolphl]

The war on the door...

 

[AlexSamDen]

I won't particularly interfere here, since I can't see the scans to properly argue, however even from descriptions themselves I don't see CM1

That's CM2

 

[Hecky2222]

That's CM2

Is it? I don't even see CM2 there

He mentioned that Yogiri is capable of removing any concept, so Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 will be reinstated.

Not even close to what Type 1 is.

I disagree with thread

 

[AlexSamDen]

Is it? I don't even see CM2 there

The "core which defines the world" can be CM2 if the scan is proper

 

[Hecky2222]

Also using SweetDao debunk thread which has nothing to do with Yogiri's removal justification is crazy bro

View history and see how tf that thread relates to Yogiri CM1 removal

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Is it? I don't even see CM2 there



Not even close to what Type 1 is.

I disagree with thread

The "core which defines the world" can be CM2 if the scan is proper

Man, the heavenly foundation is the vessel actually, it is the world itself—and it exists on the conceptual level. Therefore, all components of the world itself are conceptual (time, space, gravity, everything in the world). Destroying the heavenly foundation enables the character to use this type of Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. The heavenly record consumables are the spacetime itself or rather, they are just a part that embodies spacetime and they can change these things simply by thinking.

Alright, I’ve said what I needed to, and I’ll wait for the staff’s opinion. If you don’t agree, you can just ignore this message.

 

[Hecky2222]

All actually relevant threads if you guys interested: where CM2 was accepted

where CM2 was changed to CM3 made by @Grabbing_dragon as I see

this is downgrade

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Also using SweetDao debunk thread which has nothing to do with Yogiri's removal justification is crazy bro

View history and see how tf that thread relates to Yogiri CM1 removal

Stop posting these off-topic comments.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Man, the heavenly foundation is the vessel actually, it is the world itself—and it exists on the conceptual level. Therefore, all components of the world itself are conceptual (time, space, gravity, everything in the world). Destroying the heavenly foundation enables the character to use this type of Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. The heavenly record consumables are the spacetime itself or rather, they are just a part that embodies spacetime and they can change these things simply by thinking.

Yeah, I've read it all

This is CM2

You haven't proven the independence of the concept from the object for it to qualify for Type 1

And that's assuming all your arguments are true, which I can't check

 

[Hecky2222]

Stop posting these off-topic comments.

This is Sweet Dao’s explanation, and here is my response to it↓

??????????? what

 

[Azertyhuuh]

All actually relevant threads if you guys interested: where CM2 was accepted

I don’t see the connection between removing the Death Manipulation here, since this was already refuted in another thread and the Death Manipulation has in fact been restored.

where CM2 was changed to CM3 made by @Grabbing_dragon as I see

Can you focus on the topic? I already told you that the Demon King novel has been removed and can no longer be used, yet the original poster here relied on the Demon King novel to downgrade it to Type 3.

 

[Hecky2222]

I don’t see the connection between removing the Death Manipulation here, since this was already refuted in another thread and the Death Manipulation has in fact been restored.



Can you focus on the topic? I already told you that the Demon King novel has been removed and can no longer be used, yet the original poster here relied on the Demon King novel to downgrade it to Type 3.

If you didn't understand

All your proposals and CRT you linked has nothing to do with Yogiri conceptual manipulation cuz removal was for gods. So even if you rebunk it you have to prove Yogurt CM

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Yeah, I've read it all

This is CM2

You haven't proven the independence of the concept from the object for it to qualify for Type 1

And that's assuming all your arguments are true, which I can't check

How have I not proven it? I told you that the heavenly foundation exists on the conceptual level and is the vessel of the world. Destroying the heavenly foundation means the end of the world. The concept here is independent of the thing itself, since the heavenly foundation exists on the conceptual level and is the vessel of the entire world. I don’t know if you understand this or not, but in any case, there are those who will.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

If you didn't understand

All your proposals and CRT you linked has nothing to do with Yogiri conceptual manipulation cuz removal was for gods. So even if you rebunk it you have to prove Yogurt CM

I’ve said what I had to, and I mentioned that the Demon King novel has been removed and is no longer valid for use. Using that novel, his Conceptual Manipulation was downgraded to Type 3, but this has now been refuted. This discussion isn’t just about the gods—it also involves Yugiri. The main reason I mentioned in the post is that the Demon King novel was removed, so that downgrade in the post you made, which I am aware of, is no longer valid.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

First, in Sweet Dao’s discussion here about removing this type of conceptual manipulation, his argument relied on the Demon King novel, which has been removed and separated from the Instant Death work. Therefore, the argument he used is no longer valid, and things will return to how they were before.

???? Are we sure we are seeing the same thread here? Since what I am seeing comes from Instant death.... (He used a single line from the Demon King novel...) That was to strengthen the arguments, not as the main one....
(Please start reading the actual downgrades before trying to restate them, claiming something that is just false, is not only misleading but a direct rulebreak...)

Also, if anything, the current CM2 would be removed as that actually relies on it.... So yeah....

 

[AlexSamDen]

I told you that the heavenly foundation exists on the conceptual level and is the vessel of the world. Destroying the heavenly foundation means the end of the world.

This is true for every Type 2 concept

The concept here is independent of the thing itself, since the heavenly foundation exists on the conceptual level

This doesn't mean anything for independence

and is the vessel of the entire world

And this one is extremely vague

The mind is a vessel for thoughts, but thoughts can still affect the mind

Concept being a "vessel" for the object does not necessitate independence

 

[Hecky2222]

Thread is technically downgrade

So Imma agree with it

 

[Azertyhuuh]

This is true for every Type 2 concept

This doesn't mean anything for independence

And this one is extremely vague

The mind is a vessel for thoughts, but thoughts can still affect the mind

Concept being a "vessel" for the object does not necessitate independence

Haha, I literally don’t know what to say. The heavenly foundation is not the world itself, genius. The heavenly foundation is the vessel that contains the world, not the world itself, and it exists on the conceptual level. So yes, this proves its independence from the world—it isn’t the world at all; it’s the vessel, and the world exists inside it. Damaging the world will not affect the heavenly foundation. Also, comparing it to the mind and thoughts and stuff like that is not correct here. And this will be your last comment.

 

[Cipher72]

Ah one of the sweetDao threads in which I participated and looked over. Yea no there's no CM-1 or CM-2.
The former doesn't exist and the latter requires more substance. I suggest learning about the criterion from CM-1&2 before attempting to make threads for those. It's gonna be a disagree for me. If sm1 doesn't make a detailed argument then I will make it myself after a couple of hours.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

???? Are we sure we are seeing the same thread here? Since what I am seeing comes from Instant death.... (He used a single line from the Demon King novel...) That was to strengthen the arguments, not as the main one....
(Please start reading the actual downgrades before trying to restate them, claiming something that is just false, is not only misleading but a direct rulebreak...)

Also, if anything, the current CM2 would be removed as that actually relies on it.... So yeah....

And did the post rely solely on this argument? I think I’ve explained many things about the heavenly foundation and so on. As for the Demon King argument, it’s just one argument that I included among others—I never said that everything depended only on it. If that were the case, I wouldn’t have explained the other matters below and presented additional arguments and evidence.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Haha, I literally don’t know what to say. The heavenly foundation is not the world itself, genius. The heavenly foundation is the vessel that contains the world, not the world itself, and it exists on the conceptual level. So yes, this proves its independence from the world—it isn’t the world at all; it’s the vessel, and the world exists inside it. Damaging the world will not affect the heavenly foundation.

Honestly? I need the scans to properly assess this one. I would ask people that can properly provide them to see if this holds any merit
Because as of now - I'm starting to have doubts whether HF is even a concept

Oh, and btw - the concept of a structure/being can exist separately from the object and still be Type 2. It existing not within the same structure isn't proof

Also, comparing it to the mind and thoughts and stuff like that is not correct here.

And I'd like to hear any actual arguments as to why

And this will be your last comment.

One more statement like this and even "translation issues" won't save you.
Tone it down, you're borderline breaking the rules

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Good attempts from you, and I also expected them, but not in such a collective way. The situation is worse than I anticipated, but in any case, the post will be approved because I am confident in the arguments and what I

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Also, if anything, the current CM2 would be removed as that actually relies on it.... So yeah....

Yogiri does not have CM2 in the profile, it's Type 3.

Still, the justification from TDKIU from his concept manip should be removed. But it'd still be Type 3 since he can kill/erase concepts, and even someone else who had an inferior version of his power could do the same (gods can do this too)

As for Type 1, I havent seen any evidence from the OP that suggests the vessel would remain intact if the physical world is destroyed. You cant really say its independent just because it's not part of the physical world (since this is something that all concept types have)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Yogiri does not have CM2 in the profile, it's Type 3.

Welp, I am misremembering then, or was it changed?

Still, the justification from TDKIU from his concept manip should be removed. But it'd still be Type 3 since he can kill/erase concepts, and even someone else who had an inferior version of his power could do the same (gods can do this too)

Yeah, but wouldn't this be NPI for concepts instead, since he can only make his "death" ability erase them, not anything else? (Or at least be specified as "destruction" and not "manipulation")

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Yeah, but wouldn't this be NPI for concepts instead, since he can only make his "death" ability erase them, not anything else?

Concept Destruction is still concept manipulation.

If anything, we can just do "[[Conceptual Manipulation|Concept Destruction]] (Type 3)" if people feel too strongly about it.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

If anything, we can just do "[[Conceptual Manipulation|Concept Destruction]] (Type 3)" if people feel too strongly about it.

Yeah, I think that is far more accurate, and would be a better standard to go off, since it's far too often misused in versus battles, and "debates" for newer people that are less familiar with the wiki.

 

[Cipher72]

"[[Conceptual Manipulation|Concept Destruction]] (Type 3)" if people feel too strongly about it.

I second this

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Yogiri does not have CM2 in the profile, it's Type 3.

Still, the justification from TDKIU from his concept manip should be removed. But it'd still be Type 3 since he can kill/erase concepts, and even someone else who had an inferior version of his power could do the same (gods can do this too)

As for Type 1, I havent seen any evidence from the OP that suggests the vessel would remain intact if the physical world is destroyed. You cant really say its independent just because it's not part of the physical world (since this is something that all concept types have)

You’re supposed to have experience with Instant Death. The heavenly foundation is just the vessel of the world, and it exists on the conceptual level. The world exists within this heavenly foundation, and it is independent and unrelated to it. How do you explain the part in the novel that tells you the world exists on top of it, yet it is only the vessel? All of this is evidence that the heavenly foundation is independent from the world.

Imagine a box and a ball. Now imagine that the ball exists inside this box, and this box is the vessel that contains the ball. Now, if you destroy the ball, will the box be affected???

 

[Cipher72]

You’re supposed to have experience with Instant Death. The heavenly foundation is just the vessel of the world, and it exists on the conceptual level. The world exists within this heavenly foundation, and it is independent and unrelated to it. How do you explain the part in the novel that tells you the world exists on top of it, yet it is only the vessel? All of this is evidence that the heavenly foundation is independent from the world.

Imagine a box and a ball. Now imagine that the ball exists inside this box, and this box is the vessel that contains the ball. Now, if you destroy the ball, will the box be affected???

This is why you are supposed to read the standards for Concept Type-1

'Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it 'participates' in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is 'participating' in the concept of 'circle-ness'. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.'

Type-1 Concepts aren't merely Independent with respect to the Universe but they are rather independent with respect to the things that they govern
The Ball & the Box are two seperate entities with neither governing the other. The Box merely contains the ball, the Concept of "Box" doesn't affect the Concept of "Ball". For CM-1 you need to prove that the Concept of the "Box" is unaffected by any alterations to the Box. You need to prove that the heavenly foundation governs itself whilst being unaffected and independent with respect to itself not the Universe.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Destroying the heavenly foundation means the end of the world.

Can we get a scan showing or stating that destroying the Heavenly Foundation means the destruction of the entire world? This is one of the main reasons they were downgraded, since they aren’t fundamental concepts. They’re merely conceptual objects that don’t have any power over anything, thus don’t qualify for any CM standard and based on what others have said. I also disagree with this CRT.

 

[Hecky2222]

I agree with rewording CM

 

[Cipher72]

Heavenly Foundation means the destruction of the entire world?

Indirectly yes

'If enough power is used, those canopies can be destroyed, and the world will be destroyed by the 'harsh environment' of the Sea.[4]'

However this doesn't entail the CF being a concept whatsoever. Concept here from what I am looking at and from my limited understanding is merely used to refer to something that is "abstract"/"non-physical" rather than an "idea" that governs other objects.

Thoughts and commentary on episode 9 of the Instant Death Cheat anime
Raw: 天盤と呼ばれる世界が、天蓋という境界で覆われていて、それぞれの天盤は天軸で繋がっている。という世界です。
天盤、天蓋、天軸といった要素は概念的なものですので、物理的にそのものが存在するわけではありません。存在する場合もありますが。
天軸もほとんどの世界では見える形で存在していません。

Translation by Mugen no Setsuna:

The world, which is referred to as the Celestial Foundation, is covered by a
boundary called the Canopy, and each Celestial Foundation is linked by a
Celestial Axis. Such is the world.
Elements like the Celestial Foundation, the Canopy, and the Celestial Axis are
conceptual, so it does not mean that they exist physically. There are some
cases where they do exist that way, however.
In most of the worlds, the Celestial Axis also does not exist in a visible form.

So yea I agree with UMR

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Indirectly yes


However this doesn't entail the CF being a concept whatsoever. Concept here from what I am looking at and from my limited understanding is merely used to refer to something that is "abstract"/"non-physical" rather than an "idea" that governs other objects.

So yea I agree with UMR

I agree with what you said, and from the scan you sent, the world doesn’t get destroyed because they are fundamental concepts of the world; it gets destroyed because canopies are protecting it from the Sea, rather than being fundamental in the CM sense.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I’m currently looking for other arguments I have, so we can stop commenting here for now until I finish and come back.

 

[Hjdjdhf]

It feels okay.
By the way, why hasn't UEG and Toichiro Hakamada been updated yet?

 

[Robo432343]

Yeah cm 3 should just be removed

 

[Hecky2222]

Yeah cm 3 should just be removed

I think it should be just reworded. Yogurt having no CM makes no sense

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Concept Destruction is still concept manipulation.

If anything, we can just do "[[Conceptual Manipulation|Concept Destruction]] (Type 3)" if people feel too strongly about it.

Alright, now I will prove that Yogiri possesses Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 ↓

The Great Sage’s Dream can never be reached or attained; it is completely independent of the entire world. Even if the entire world were destroyed, one would not reach its essence. The Great Sage’s Dream is the foundation of everything in the world; it is what makes the world exist. Destroying the Great Sage’s Dream would cause the destruction of the entire world. Yogiri is capable of erasing any concept, any entity, or anything at all. Yogiri is the end of everything

What do you think now?

 

[Hecky2222]

The Great Sage’s Dream can never be reached or attained; it is completely independent of the entire world. Even if the entire world were destroyed, one would not reach its essence. The Great Sage’s Dream is the foundation of everything in the world; it is what makes the world exist.

Scan doesn't tell us that. It just tells whole world is just his dream

Destroying the Great Sage’s Dream would cause the destruction of the entire world.

Obviously it does since his dream is world he is dreaming. I mean pretty obvious when we look into context. It is not like his dream is definition and essence of "everything".

Yogiri is capable of erasing any concept, any entity, or anything at all. Yogiri is the end of everything

I think it can be good scans since we removed Demon King Unbeatable