5-B Planet Tiersetter Tournament Round 2 Match 2: Primal Groudon vs The Roaring Knight (6-0-0)

[Shadowslash125]

Back to regular match orders​

Arena

• Via SBA, Central Park.

• Starting Distance will be based on SBA. In this case 4 kilometers due to Primal Groudon's attacks being planetary.

Match Conditions

• Speed is equalized by default, but may remain unequalized if one character can mitigate the speed gap (e.g., through passives, resistances, durability advantages, etc.).
• Matches will use SBA unless specified otherwise.
• Rules are subject to changes on a per-match basis to make them fairer or more interesting
• Wincon is via incapacitation or death
• Combatants are now allowed to magically view the other previous matches in-universe (except for the initial tiersetter match)

Match Rules

• 2 days are given to both participating users to debate. Regardless of circumstances, I will decree the outcome of the match after the 2 days for the sake of the tourney's pacing. While they may/may not be added to the profiles, further votes can be given so that these matches are eligible to be added to the respective character's profiles
  
  • An exception can be made should the participating user notify everyone in this thread that they'd be inactive for a bit or some other situation. A further 1 day will be given for such exception
  • If you no longer have any reason or motivation to continue participating in this tournament, notify in the thread to have your combatant removed (and depending on the tourney time, a replacement can be issued)
• Inconclusive matches are also subject to the above rule, but I will issue a coin flip to decide who advances (unless the votes have a 3-4 vote difference, at which it is completely subject to the first rule instead)

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Music!!!​

Combatants viewing this match can hear the song as well.

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Primal Groudon (896.53 ZT)	The Roaring Knight (Upscales 6.3 MT)	Ha, Men
6 (Will List Later)	-	-

 

[Qurbonboev]

Let's start:
Distance is not a problem at all. Lancer Fan Club can run in tandem with lasers(accepted as SoL) for several meters. Knight can outrun them with ease. So, closing 4 km distance wouldn't be problem at all.
Knight can fly, and can dodge attacks via shapeshifting, which makes dodging attacks much easier.
Once distance is closed, Knight spams Groudon(who is a fairly big target) with danmaku and kills him. In case that Groudon for some reason is too evasive or (god forbid) too skilled to get hit, Knight just triggers Final Attack, lift barely 1 ton ass of Groudon into the aie and finishes him off with unavoidable duraneg bullets(I know that Groudon has absurd LS advantage. Without Flight or any way to exert this force while in the air, it's useless against Final Attack).

 

[koopa3144]

Like last time; I wrote this out ahead of time cause I'd knew I would prob be busy when thread dropped.

So, with the SBA distance, this is pretty similar to the last round since Groudon has a big range advantage and one-shots, but if their opponent gets close enough to land attacks, they can take Groudon out fairly quickly (in this case via RK's soul attacks). Like last time, Groudon should be able to fire a beam (which Groudon can almost instantly fire) or surround them with Precipice Blades and detonate them before RK can land an attack. If the RK tries to avoid the Beam, the AOE will likely catch them regardless, and the Knight likely won't escape Precipice Blades in time before they detonate and one-shot them.

It's also worth noting that Groudon's heat should be greater than the RK's resistance. It's pretty fair to upscale Groudon's heat from other Mons since Groudon increasing the Sun's heat would have wiped out all humans and all other Pokémon, including Mons like Magcargo and Camerupt whose body temperature is around 10255K, which is higher than RK's 5000K resistance. This could help Groudon since its body heat could melt the knights' sword projectiles before they can reach them, taking away a good amount of RK's ranged options since summoning swords is the main way they attack from a distance.

 

[Qurbonboev]

If the RK tries to avoid the Beam, the AOE will likely catch them regardless, and the Knight likely won't escape Precipice Blades in time before they detonate and one-shot them.

Knight is much more mobile than Batter, and has FTL movement speed (compared to Batter's subsonic). Unless Knight deliberately stays very close to Groudon, dodging AoE of beam shouldn't be too difficult.
Precipice blades in all instances I see either rise from ground or the sea(and it's ground move). So Knight can avoid them just by flying high enough.
Knight has night vision, Groudon doesn't seems to poccess anything worthwhile in that regard. So Knight can just summon Titans upon Titans in it's way towards Groudon, obstructing his views on her, and thus safely sneaking on her.
Using heat to counter act sword projectiles is clever. Thankfully things like this attack or spatial cut won't be affected by heat, thus allowing Knight to safely dispocces of Groudon.

And more controversial part: Knight has teleportation (range off which is seemingly 10-20 meters). We can see her teleporting in the battle(but for attacks only). We didn't see her use it for dodging yet. We can conclude that she won't use TP if she thinks that attacks can be dodged without it. So it's unlikely that Knight would have used it against Rexxar or Khadgar(yes, I am talking to you, DaReaperMan, don't bring up that warning yet). But she would def use it if she has prior knowledge of enemy attacks(which she does here). Unless you think she is too dumb for it, but you would need to first to downgrade Knight intelligence to use this argument.

 

[koopa3144]

Gonna be away from my computer for like 2-3 hours, so I'll reply to the first post and any replies when I get back.

 

[Friedoil11]

I’ll bring my arguments tomorrow morning when I’ll have my computer

 

[Qurbonboev]

Gonna be away from my computer for like 2-3 hours, so I'll reply to the first post and any replies when I get back.

I’ll bring my arguments tomorrow morning when I’ll have my computer

I am too can respond only tomorrow morning

 

[Friedoil11]

Well, I actually got home earlier than expected, so here is my arguments.Let's start with the advantages of the Roaring Knight (other than the ones already said above):

1. He can actually use a lot of attacks at the same time (thanks to his danmaku).
2. He has Homing Attacks.
3. Apparently is more skilled in combat.
4. Resists Groudon's Fissure BFR due to him being able to fly.
5. Should resist Scary Face, thanks to him having resistance to Fear Manipulation.

For Groudon instead, he has some advantages too:
First of all, he resists Knight's fire manipulation, with the damage being halved.

Knight has night vision, Groudon doesn't seems to poccess anything worthwhile in that regard. So Knight can just summon Titans upon Titans in it's way towards Groudon, obstructing his views on her, and thus safely sneaking on her.

If by that, you mean that since he is made of darkness, he can use either Solar Beam (which can be used instantly thanks to Desolated Land) or this attack (which should be able to kill most of them if not all thanks to the AoE).
He also has this ability called Hot Blooded, which makes him restore health if he stands on soil, sand, magma or lava. I already see someone saying "but Friedoil11, Roaring Knight has Regeneration Negation", and this is true, but from what I've saw, it's mostly him either oneshotting someone so that he can't eat to regenerate and/or he makes so that others can't heal someone else.

Precipice blades in all instances I see either rise from ground or
the sea(and it's ground move). So Knight can avoid them just by flying high enough.

From what I've saw, most of you doesn't seem to understand that if someone can fly Precipice Blades won't do any damage because it's a ground move. If it can fly high enough to dodge it it's a thing, but if you think that because since it can fly then it potentially be a flying type and for this reason he is immune or highly resistant to it, because even Charizard who is immune to Ground Type moves took damage from it.

Knight is much more mobile than Batter, and has FTL movement speed (compared to Batter's subsonic). Unless Knight deliberately stays very close to Groudon, dodging AoE of beam shouldn't be too difficult.

From what I understood, when speed is equalised, it usually get used the speed of the slower one. The thing is that Knight might get to Groudon at high speeds, but Groudon has fought against foes of equal speed or of higher speed, so he can still hit and react easily to him.

PS: two things, 1; do to Groudon having Desolated Land, is the 50% boost on fire attacks already counted or not? 2; how does Dragon Tail's BFR works? Because it says that it instantly ends wild pokemon battles against one pokemon, so is it Game Mechanics or not?

 

[koopa3144]

Me back. Also, I know the RK is prob Dess, but I like using They/it's pronouns for it.

Distance is not a problem at all. Lancer Fan Club can run in tandem with lasers(accepted as SoL) for several meters. Knight can outrun them with ease. So, closing 4 km distance wouldn't be problem at all.

They still have to take a moment to travel that distance, which leaves them open to Groudon intercepting them with Precipice Blades (Which Groudon can cast without any movement)

Knight can fly, and can dodge attacks via shapeshifting, which makes dodging attacks much easier.

Groudon can tag much more slippery flyers like Rayqauza, so flight isn't gonna help much here. On top of that, Groudon's large AOE is gonna make avoiding anything extremely hard and if anything even grazes RK it isn't gonna end well due to the insane AP gap and Heat.

Precipice blades in all instances I see either rise from ground or the sea(and it's ground move). So Knight can avoid them just by flying high enough.

The Knight wouldn't know about Precipice blades (Since it's likely that in the last round, the Batter just dies to the first beam, and Groudon never needs to pull it out) and wouldn't know they would have to fly up to avoid it. Even if they tried, PB can go very high into the sky, and Groudon has tagged flying opponents with it before.

Knight has night vision, Groudon doesn't seems to poccess anything worthwhile in that regard. So Knight can just summon Titans upon Titans in it's way towards Groudon, obstructing his views on her, and thus safely sneaking on her.

Titan summoning is not a good idea since the Knight it's gonna leave them open to getting impaled by Precipice blades while they're preparing to strike the ground. If the Knight isn't interrupted before they bring their swords down, Groudon can use Earthquake to have the Knight's swords shatter on contact with the ground or open up the ground to prevent them from stabbing into it. Even if somehow the Knight gets past all of that to summon Titans, Groudon passively summons extremely harsh sunlight into battle, which should instantly evaporate any Titans summoned due to the extremely intense light.

Using heat to counter act sword projectiles is clever. Thankfully things like this attack or spatial cut won't be affected by heat, thus allowing Knight to safely dispocces of Groudon.

The Battle Box attack likely requires the Knight to get close, which is bad for them since the heat Groudon passively emits is gonna melt them. The spatial cut in their final attack is the last move the RK uses, and the fight likely isn't gonna last that long (If it did Groudon's increasing of the Sun's heat will have gotten to the point of passively melting the RK).

And more controversial part: Knight has teleportation (range off which is seemingly 10-20 meters).

I feel like 10-20 meters is a stretch, since at most we see them teleport off-screen to on-screen in their fight, which is probably more like 2-5 at most.

We can see her teleporting in the battle(but for attacks only). We didn't see her use it for dodging yet. We can conclude that she won't use TP if she thinks that attacks can be dodged without it. So it's unlikely that Knight would have used it against Rexxar or Khadgar(yes, I am talking to you, DaReaperMan, don't bring up that warning yet). But she would def use it if she has prior knowledge of enemy attacks(which she does here). Unless you think she is too dumb for it, but you would need to first to downgrade Knight intelligence to use this argument.

As I noted before, the Batter just dies to the first beam, and Groudon never needs to pull out any other moves, so they likely won't know what Groudon can fully do and feel the need to teleport. Also, Pokémon can sense an opponent's presence, and since Groudon can instantly use Precipice Blades, anywhere RK tp's they're likely gonna be caught off guard by Precipice Blades after thinking their save from attacks.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Ill wait but at the moment I'm strongly leaning towards roaring Knight

 

[Qurbonboev]

First of all, he resists Knight's fire manipulation, with the damage being halved.

Geniunely strange logic, considering that flames are just after effects of the attacks, not it's main part. But, since even when resisted, this particular attack removes third of the health, regardless of DEF stats, it still should kill Groudon fairly fast.

If by that, you mean that since he is made of darkness, he can use either Solar Beam

1. I don't see anywhere it being mentioned that desolate land allows instant use of Solar Beam
2. It's AoE is impressive, but Titans are pretty giant(100m+ big in outside), and they are very easy to summon. Titans themselves aren't that much of danger to Groudon(for several obvious reasons). Their main purpose is to agro Groudon on them.

He also has this ability called Hot Blooded, which makes him restore health if he stands on soil, sand, magma or lava

Can Hot Blooded regenerate soul damage, and how fast it can regenerate HP?

From what I've saw, most of you doesn't seem to understand that if someone can fly Precipice Blades won't do any damage because it's a ground move

No, I am not implying that Knight would count as flying type, and thus immune to ground attack. Knight just flies high enough to not get tagged by attack. Charizard in your examples flew too close to the ground, and thus got hit by it.

PS: two things, 1; do to Groudon having Desolated Land, is the 50% boost on fire attacks already counted or not? 2; how does Dragon Tail's BFR works? Because it says that it instantly ends wild pokemon battles against one pokemon, so is it Game Mechanics or not?

1. That 50% boost is clearly redundant
2. Dragon Tail requires contact to work

They still have to take a moment to travel that distance

Closing 4 km with FTL movement speed would geniunely take no time.

Groudon can tag much more slippery flyers like Rayqauza, so flight isn't gonna help much here.

Rayquaza doesn't have Teleportation isn't?(Wait, why Groudon has only FTL, while Rayquaza has MTFL+?)

The Knight wouldn't

Solar Beam(or any other Groudon Beams) tends to make ground very hot burning mess. It's alone would force Knight to fly very high.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Technically if you use the manga then the characters often no-sell stuff they resist-

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Rayquaza doesn't have Teleportation isn't?(Wait, why Groudon has only FTL, while Rayquaza has MTFL+?)

Mftl+ comes from the speed of the meteor deoxys is piloting

Rayquaza and deoxys are consistently portrayed as relative in pokelore so rayquaza scales to that

Groudon doesn't consistently scale to Rayquazas level at all tho...so it's a bit hard to pinpoint where he would be in comparison to this

Technically tho I think since groudon and kyogre are stated to be capable of intercepting the meteor before it hits the planet, a possibly rating could be attached to scale them to the meteors speed but that's for more experienced poke supporters

 

[Qurbonboev]

Titan summoning is not a good idea since the Knight it's gonna leave them open to getting impaled by Precipice blades while they're preparing to strike the ground

Titan summoning doesn't require any complicated actions or obscene amounts of time. You just need sharp object, that pierces the ground. And Knight can summon swords just by thought, without any movements. Knight can summon Titans everywhere within hundred meters easily, while flying towards Groudon.
Sun heat will likely melt Titan star, but not Titan main body, which does resist Light to certain degree. And Titan wings aren't Dark elemental at all, so they won't get damaged by heat.

The Battle Box attack likely requires the Knight to get close

Does Groudon heat passively ionises air around it? Knight resists up to 5000K, and at this point air is actually plasma.
Looking at it thoroughly, I think you clearly underestimate time it would take to melt Knight projectiles. Vaporising something through hot air is difficult. Vaporising something in timeframe between "Knight swords just spawning before your eyes" and "Sword hitting you with FTL speed" is impossible. Based on this post, but if you want I can run numbers for our case, to conclusively show that it would be impossible to Groudon to melt Knight swords before they hit him(especially if they spawns before his eyes).

Also, Pokémon can sense an opponent's presence

Your links show Venusaur feeling enemy presence through some powerful electric field. Interesting, but not particularly useful in this scenario

 

[Friedoil11]

1. I don't see anywhere it being mentioned that desolate land allows instant use of Solar Beam

Well, Desolated Land, other than evaporating water-type moves and blocking most weather-modifying moves, should have the same effects of Drought (listed here), with one of them being the ability to use Solar Blade and Solar Blade instantly.

2. Dragon Tail requires contact to work

Yeah, I know that, but what happens IF Groudon hits Knight?

Can Hot Blooded regenerate soul damage, and how fast it can regenerate HP?

After a bit of research, from what I found it doesn't specify neither if it can regenerate soul damage or how fast con it regenerate, but matbll search better.

Does Groudon heat passively ionises air around it? Knight resists up to 5000K, and at this point air is actually plasma.

I don't know how hot are his attacks, but since he can evaporate water around him, the minimum temperature to evaporate water is 100° C (not that much), but maybe his sun is hot enough.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Well, Desolated Land, other than evaporating water-type moves and blocking most weather-modifying moves, should have the same effects of Drought (listed here), with one of them being the ability to use Solar Blade and Solar Blade instantly.

Ok then

Yeah, I know that, but what happens IF Groudon hits Knight?

Knight dies. Won't happen though, since neither of them plan to fight that close to each other

After a bit of research, from what I found it doesn't specify neither if it can regenerate soul damage or how fast con it regenerate, but matbll search better.

In any case: if it was able to regenerate soul damage, Groudon would need to be able to almost instantly heal incoming damage, cus Knoght spams danmaku fast.

I don't know how hot are his attacks, but since he can evaporate water around him, the minimum temperature to evaporate water is 100° C (not that much), but maybe his sun is hot enough.

Would need more elaboration on this part(since calc is not evaluated)

 

[Friedoil11]

Btw how does Bug, Fairy and Steel type works? I know it won't matter here, but maybe it might be useful later in the tournament.

 

[koopa3144]

I realized the Link for PB height didn't work, but this one should.

Closing 4 km with FTL movement speed would geniunely take no time.

Even if it's a very small time sink, they're still gonna be left open for a moment while they move. Groudon has caught FTL flyers before, like Rayquaza and Kyogre, with PB, so Groudon shouldn't have a hard time intercepting the Knight.

Solar Beam(or any other Groudon Beams) tends to make ground very hot burning mess. It's alone would force Knight to fly very high.

PB is likely the first move Groudon is gonna pull out here, so they're not gonna be above ground beforehand. Even if Groudon decides to lead with a beam here, the AOE is likely gonna take them out before they can even fly up.

Titan summoning doesn't require any complicated actions or obscene amounts of time. You just need sharp object, that pierces the ground. And Knight can summon swords just by thought, without any movements. Knight can summon Titans everywhere within hundred meters easily, while flying towards Groudon.

Groudon can shake the ground for Thousands of kilometers, so unless the Knight moves a continent away before stabbing the ground, Groudon should be able to shatter any sword that touches the ground. Also, I feel like it's a stretch to say the Knight just spam summons hundreds of Titans in-character.

Sun heat will likely melt Titan star, but not Titan main body, which does resist Light to certain degree. And Titan wings aren't Dark elemental at all, so they won't get damaged by heat.

I don't think the main body's resistance is high enough to tank a constant 10255K beaming down on it, and the wings also lack a heat resistance on Groudon's level so there's no real reason why they wouldn't also instantly evaporate.

Does Groudon heat passively ionises air around it? Knight resists up to 5000K, and at this point air is actually plasma.
Looking at it thoroughly, I think you clearly underestimate time it would take to melt Knight projectiles. Vaporising something through hot air is difficult. Vaporising something in timeframe between "Knight swords just spawning before your eyes" and "Sword hitting you with FTL speed" is impossible. Based on this post, but if you want I can run numbers for our case, to conclusively show that it would be impossible to Groudon to melt Knight swords before they hit him(especially if they spawns before his eyes).

Assuming the Knights' summoned swords are steel, looking it up shows that steel melts at 4,532°F (2773.15K), which is much lower than Groudon's upper-end heat output of 10255K. Someone else can do the math if they want, but I'm pretty sure the difference should be enough for the swords to evaporate before they hit Groudon

Also worth noting that if Groudon's heat doesn't passively deal with them, they can still avoid oncoming projectiles by jumping over with Moves like Body Slam and Heat Crash.

Your links show Venusaur feeling enemy presence through some powerful electric field. Interesting, but not particularly useful in this scenario

It's a Pokémon (Any Walking Pokémon in the game can be interacted with for this dialogue iirc). Feeling Zapdos' presence nearby. Groudon being much stronger, legendary Mon shouldn't have a hard time doing the same here.


Imo I'm still leaning Groudon here since its wincons are more likely. Groudon likely intercepts the RK trying to close the distance when the fight starts with PB (Which, once again, Groudon doesn't need any movements to use). Since PB can easily tag and trap comparable characters (Who can also move at FTL speed like the Knight) before they can avoid it, the Knight likely won't have time to do anything before they are impaled or blown up. They also can't really counter by doing something like flying up, since the RK has no way of knowing about PB beforehand, since in the last round, Groudon likely never uses it.

On the off chance that the Knight closes the distance and gets Groudon in attack range, if their swords instantly evaporate like discussed above, they would have to get even closer to Groudon to properly attack it (Which will prob get them incinerated by Groudon's passive heat emission). Even if the swords don't instantly evaporate, Groudon should know how dangerous the Knights' attacks are after seeing their last match and is smart enough to move to block them with its Earth manipulation (The Knights' swords don't have intangibility on profile, but in case they are intangible, Ground-type moves can interact with intangible Ghost types. So Groudon's defence should be able to block them). While the Knights' blades are fast, characters are still capable of avoiding them. And considering that Groudon doesn't need any movement to use its Earth manipulation, it shouldn't be hard for Groudon to put up a defence.

The Knight's other wincon of Titan summoning isn't great since Groudon has many ways to counter it, as I noted before. Even if the Knight gets the Titan summoning off and creates a large amount of them (Which I'd argue is likely out of character since it only summoned one vs the Delta Warrior's as a way to distract them. Here, the Knight does not know the power gap and likely believes they can beat Groudon on their own) the Titans likely aren't loyal to the Knight since they are mindless bringers of destruction so it's very likely that mass summoning Titans is gonna backfire and lead to it also being attacked by them.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Need some elaborations first, before giving full fledged response

Groudon has caught FTL flyers before, like Rayquaza and Kyogre, with PB, so Groudon shouldn't have a hard time intercepting the Knight

Knight seems to be much more mobile than Kyogre, and has shapeshifting and teleportation. Rayquaza has MFTL+ in speed compared to Groudon FTL, which clearly suggest that verse sups and staff members deemed examples of Groudon hitting Rayquaza with its attacks as outliers/PiS or whatever. So you can't use them as your arguments.

PB is likely the first move Groudon is gonna pull out here

And it would be first move because?

Groudon can shake the ground for Thousands of kilometers, so unless the Knight moves a continent away before stabbing the ground, Groudon should be able to shatter any sword that touches the ground

Earthquake would shatter any sword, ok. But for obvious reasons earthquake can shatter the sword only after sword makes contact with the ground, which is enough to summon a Titan.

I don't think the main body's resistance is high enough to tank a constant 10255K beaming down on it, and the wings also lack a heat resistance on Groudon's level so there's no real reason why they wouldn't also instantly evaporate.

I am not talking about temperature of Solar Beam or other fire based moves(they would obviously melt Titan if it hits them). I am talking about temperature of passive heat that is caused by "desolate land", or emitted passively by Groudon body.

Assuming the Knights' summoned swords are steel, looking it up shows that steel melts at 4,532°F (2773.15K), which is much lower than Groudon's upper-end heat output of 10255K. Someone else can do the math if they want, but I'm pretty sure the difference should be enough

If you think 10255K is enough to vaporise big chunk of steel like Knight sword, why do you think arc plasma cutters temperature are in averages of 28000K?

Also worth noting that if Groudon's heat doesn't passively deal with them, they can still avoid oncoming projectiles by jumping over with Moves like Body Slam and Heat Crash.

Needs time to use them, slower than "sword appearing in front of your eyes" > "sword hitting you"

Feeling Zapdos' presence nearby

Zapdos is electric pokemon. It's pretty obvious that Pokémons are feeling it's electric field. Isn't exactly relevant here.

the Titans likely aren't loyal to the Knight since they are mindless bringers of destruction so it's very likely that mass summoning Titans is gonna backfire and lead to it also being attacked by them.

Titans are not wincon. They are purely meant for distraction. Knight can easily deal with them

 

[Friedoil11]

Earthquake would shatter any sword, ok. But for obvious reasons earthquake can shatter the sword only after sword makes contact with the ground, which is enough to summon a Titan.

Yeah, Knight might be able to summon a Titan, but if Groudon uses Earthquake and would one-shot it.

Needs time to use them, slower than "sword appearing in front of your eyes" > "sword hitting you"

This might be true, but since Knight would need a lot of attacks before defeating Groudon, there's a high chance that Groudon gives him a good move on him and kills him.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yeah, Knight might be able to summon a Titan, but if Groudon uses Earthquake and would one-shot it

I don't see in Groudon profile non-physical interaction anywhere. Things like light and energy attacks should obviously be able to interact with Titan, but not earthquakes.
Oh, and time spend on earthquake by Groudon, is free time for Knight to come close to target and kill it

This might be true, but since Knight would need a lot of attacks before defeating Groudon

Around 3-4 hits would be enough to kill Groudon via soulhax. And Knight can spam swords and other bullet absurdly fast

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yeah, Knight might be able to summon a Titan, but if Groudon uses Earthquake and would one-shot it.

Mid-High regen means Groudon would have to straight-up atomize the 1000m Titan to kill it.

 

[koopa3144]

Slow responses cause its the weekend, and I'm lazy.

Knight seems to be much more mobile than Kyogre, and has shapeshifting and teleportation. Rayquaza has MFTL+ in speed compared to Groudon FTL, which clearly suggest that verse sups and staff members deemed examples of Groudon hitting Rayquaza with its attacks as outliers/PiS or whatever. So you can't use them as your arguments.

It's cause the scaling hasn't been updated in a while. We used to have Canon split before a crt changed it so that most media is canon. A lot of profiles haven't been updated to reflect this fully tho. Iirc In the games, we never see Groudon and Kyogre fight Rayquaza, it only gives us the lore that Rayquaza beat them and sealed them. In other media, like the anime, they can harm and land hits on Rayquaza, although they are weaker than it.

And it would be first move because?

PB is it's Signature move and something Groudon uses often vs foes. Groudon is prob gonna use it over a beam here because of how fast the Knight can move.

Earthquake would shatter any sword, ok. But for obvious reasons earthquake can shatter the sword only after sword makes contact with the ground, which is enough to summon a Titan.

The sword has to be properly stabbed into the ground for the Darkness to rise out. Considering the Sword will shatter instantly on contact before they can even begin to pierce it, there's no way it can get deep enough to draw the darkness out.

Also, I'm just not realizing this battle doesn't take place in a dark world. Unless I'm mistaken, since the Knight can seemingly retain their powers outside a dark world, SBA isn't gonna make the battlefield one. So to summon a Titan, the Knight would have to bring it and Groudon to a Dark World beforehand, which is basically impossible since they're in an open area with lots of sun due to Groudon.

I am not talking about temperature of Solar Beam or other fire based moves(they would obviously melt Titan if it hits them). I am talking about temperature of passive heat that is caused by "desolate land", or emitted passively by Groudon body.

I don't see how being a Dark element is gonna protect them from the Sun's heat since Groudon's increased sun heat was also gonna kill Pokémon Dark types.

Needs time to use them, slower than "sword appearing in front of your eyes" > "sword hitting you"

The Knights' projectiles can be avoided and reacted to by comparable characters, and Body Slam/Heat Crash instantly sends the user in the air. Groudon should be capable of moving out of the way if need be. Assuming it doesn't go for the better option of using Earth manipulation to set up a defence.

I don't see in Groudon profile non-physical interaction anywhere.

All Pokémon can interact with intangible Ghost-types with Non-normal type moves. Mons not having non-physical interaction is because profiles are messy rn.

Mid-High regen means Groudon would have to straight-up atomize the 1000m Titan to kill it.

That prob isn't too hard for Groudon to pull off with its massive AP advantage and AOE.

May or may not be my last reply for today. I'm feeling lazy

 

[Qurbonboev]

PB is it's Signature move and something Groudon uses often vs foes.

I am asking why it is first move here, but not in previous fights?

Also, I'm just not realizing this battle doesn't take place in a dark world

No, they are by default made in Dark Worlds. We don't know how much of power and strength Knight retains in LW
And obviously, Earthquake isn't first thing Groudon would do against flying foe. He would use earthquake only after Titans are summoned. But it would take some (minimal) time, which gives Knight time it needs

I don't see how being a Dark element is gonna protect them from the Sun's heat since Groudon's increased sun heat was also gonna kill Pokémon Dark types.

?!?
1. You are responding to different thing
2. My argument is that wings not being made from Dark(thus not vulnerable to the light) allows Titan to use it as cover against harsh sunlight.
3. Again, how fast can Groudon increase temperature, and how big would be values for passive heat it emits in start of the fight?
4. You claim that 10225K is enough to melt swords before they reach Groudon. Which is ridiculous for some reason, such as: a) that's not now it actually works, you need much higher temperatures than their melting points to be able to actually cut through metals, b) swords fire at FTL speed, which obviously makes any kind of transfer of thermal energy between sword and hot air very problematic. IRL humans can survive 28000K Lightning, since they contact it for very short amount of time. Knight sword would be under influence of hot air for even lesser time

The Knights' projectiles can be avoided and reacted to by comparable characters

Did you forget the fact that Groudon is very big target? It would get hit by danmaku in both examples you provide purely because it such a big target. Groudon can't physically dodge things like, homing attacks purely die to size. Evasive moves require time, and they would be less effective at dodging compared to some small character who can jump high.
Sending himself to the air doesn't save Groudon ass from bullets, maybe even endanger it even more, since it's much less mobile in the air.
And Knight can always use Final Attack.

That prob isn't too hard for Groudon to pull off with its massive AP advantage and AOE.

Not all Groudon moves have big AoE, and/or necessary AoE. Earthquake can cover great amounts of area, great. But how exactly they are damaging higher parts of Titan?

It's cause the scaling hasn't been updated in a while.

Nothing personal, but "if it's not on profile, it might as well don't exists". Groudon having non-physical interaction is pretty obvious, so I am gonna accept that it actually has, despite profile not having it. But speed scaling is much more contentious

 

[Sooshirohl]

folllowing but reading through the args i think i'm leaning more towards groudon atm

 

[Qurbonboev]

Since @Shadowslash125 is supposed to give verdict after several hours, I will summarise all my counter arguments against Groudon sups.
1. Groudon will kill Roaring Knight before it crosses 4 km distance.
Knight has FTL movement speed, crossing 4 km distance obviously wouldn't take too much time. At best Groudon would get 1-2 free actions before facing Knight swords
2. Beams and Precipice Blades would tag Knight.
Groudon did tag other flying enemies with it. But Knight is more mobile than flying opponents Groudon faced, has shapeshifting and teleportation, and is much smaller than Kyogre or Rayquaza. I should repeat this: size differences are very important in this fight. It would be very hard to hit Knight, while Groudon himself is big easy target for swords. Also, Precipice blades seems to detonate some time after their summoning, which gives Knight enough time to run from them.
3. Groudon won't allow Knight to summon Titans vua earthquake, and would easily kill them.
Groudon wouldn't use earthquake (ground move, duh) against Knight, before she starts summoning Titans. Earthquake would be able to prevent formation of new Titans(for as long as ability works), but it won't be able to kill summoned Titans, since they are very big creatures with mid-high regen, and earthquake would target only minor parts of their bodies. Some of Groudon abilities would kill them, but he would need to target individual Titans. And any moment Groudon uses these moves, is moment it doesn't use earthquake, which allows Knight to summon even more of them. Desolate Land would probably allow Groudon to passively melt Titan shields(via harsh sunlight), but Titan body and wings don't have weakness to light. Also, time spend to destroy Titans is time given to Knight to freely came close to Groudon without need for dodging dangerous attacks. I can safely assume that Groudon would prioritise giant Titans over small Knight, isn't? (Additional question: does Groudon have resistance to fearhax? Cus if he doesn't he would get negged by any close Titan or Titanspawn).
4. Groudon can sense Knight presence, since many normal pokemons can do it.
Only example sups provide are for pokemons feeling presence of electric Pokemon, Zapdos.
I wager even I would easily be able to feel presence of the strong electric pokemon. Won't exactly help here.
5. Groudon passive heat would melt all Titan and Knight swords.
Sups didn't answer my question on "how high passive heat of Groudon is in the start". Scan they provide did say that he can increase temperature enough to kill all pokemons and humans, but I heavily doubts it's something that it can use right from the start. Extreme harsh sunlight can vaporise water easily from the moment it casted, but it's not enough to actually melt Titans.
And even if he had aura of 10225K passive heat around itself, it wouldn't be able to shield Groudon from swords. "It's higher than steel melting point, it should be able to instantly melt it before they reach Groudon", not how it works in thermodynamic, buddy.
For melting something you need high rate of thermal energy transfer + sufficient time. There are numerous instances of humans surviving 28,000K lightning, due to the fact that their bodies experience such temperatures only for brief moment, usually milliseconds. Melting point for most metals is only several thousands K, but average temperature for plasma arc cutters is around 28,000K to ensure that metals would be cut in reasonable time(if you want to cut metals as fast as lightsabers, you would need much higher temperatures, up to 54,000K).
Groudon passive heat wouldn't be able to melt Knight swords(which have FTL speed, you know). It's just not enough time for them to work.
6. Groudon can dodge via evasive moves
These moves require significant time for setup. And they wouldn't be that useful against danmaku like this. You dodged first sword via jumping, good, now dodge second sword while in the air (also, address circle of doom that would envelop Groudon from each side). Groudon is just too big of target to successfully dodge hard and fast danmaku of Knight. And if all else fails, Knight just triggers final attack, lift Groudon from the ground, and deals with it via duraneg bullets or spatial cut.

I think I did respond to main arguments for Groudon. If there is anything left, that I didn't address, tell me about it.

Snip

Snip

 

[Shadowslash125]

Since @Shadowslash125 is supposed to give verdict after several hours,

The matches are good rn, will extend a day

 

[Friedoil11]

1. Groudon will kill Roaring Knight before it crosses 4 km distance.
Knight has FTL movement speed, crossing 4 km distance obviously wouldn't take too much time. At best Groudon would get 1-2 free actions before facing Knight swords
2. Beams and Precipice Blades would tag Knight.
Groudon did tag other flying enemies with it. But Knight is more mobile than flying opponents Groudon faced, has shapeshifting and teleportation, and is much smaller than Kyogre or Rayquaza. I should repeat this: size differences are very important in this fight. It would be very hard to hit Knight, while Groudon himself is big easy target for swords. Also, Precipice blades seems to detonate some time after their summoning, which gives Knight enough time to run from them.

First of all, Groudon has also faced smaller opponents, hitting them after being hit while distracted, so for him it wouldn't be that much of a problem.

3. Groudon won't allow Knight to summon Titans vua earthquake, and would easily kill them.
Groudon wouldn't use earthquake (ground move, duh) against Knight, before she starts summoning Titans. Earthquake would be able to prevent formation of new Titans(for as long as ability works), but it won't be able to kill summoned Titans, since they are very big creatures with mid-high regen, and earthquake would target only minor parts of their bodies. Some of Groudon abilities would kill them, but he would need to target individual Titans. And any moment Groudon uses these moves, is moment it doesn't use earthquake, which allows Knight to summon even more of them. Desolate Land would probably allow Groudon to passively melt Titan shields(via harsh sunlight), but Titan body and wings don't have weakness to light. Also, time spend to destroy Titans is time given to Knight to freely came close to Groudon without need for dodging dangerous attacks. I can safely assume that Groudon would prioritise giant Titans over small Knight, isn't? (Additional question: does Groudon have resistance to fearhax? Cus if he doesn't he would get negged by any close Titan or Titanspawn).

Well, from what I know, to summon a Titan, Knight would need at least a few seconds, which is enough time to use an attack like this one (which should be enough to at least kill Knight) or, if the AoE isn't big enough, this attack, which should be enough to kill both. In case Titan survives either one of them, Groudon can just BFR it with Fissure.

4. Groudon can sense Knight presence, since many normal pokemons can do it.
Only example sups provide are for pokemons feeling presence of electric Pokemon, Zapdos.
I wager even I would easily be able to feel presence of the strong electric pokemon. Won't exactly help here.
5. Groudon passive heat would melt all Titan and Knight swords.
Sups didn't answer my question on "how high passive heat of Groudon is in the start". Scan they provide did say that he can increase temperature enough to kill all pokemons and humans, but I heavily doubts it's something that it can use right from the start. Extreme harsh sunlight can vaporise water easily from the moment it casted, but it's not enough to actually melt Titans.
And even if he had aura of 10225K passive heat around itself, it wouldn't be able to shield Groudon from swords. "It's higher than steel melting point, it should be able to instantly melt it before they reach Groudon", not how it works in thermodynamic, buddy.
For melting something you need high rate of thermal energy transfer + sufficient time. There are numerous instances of humans surviving 28,000K lightning, due to the fact that their bodies experience such temperatures only for brief moment, usually milliseconds. Melting point for most metals is only several thousands K, but average temperature for plasma arc cutters is around 28,000K to ensure that metals would be cut in reasonable time(if you want to cut metals as fast as lightsabers, you would need much higher temperatures, up to 54,000K).
Groudon passive heat wouldn't be able to melt Knight swords(which have FTL speed, you know). It's just not enough time for them to work.
6. Groudon can dodge via evasive moves
These moves require significant time for setup. And they wouldn't be that useful against danmaku like this. You dodged first sword via jumping, good, now dodge second sword while in the air (also, address circle of doom that would envelop Groudon from each side). Groudon is just too big of target to successfully dodge hard and fast danmaku of Knight. And if all else fails, Knight just triggers final attack, lift Groudon from the ground, and deals with it via duraneg bullets or spatial cut.

I think I did respond to main arguments for Groudon. If there is anything left, that I didn't address, tell me about it.

For this, honestly I don't have any counter counter-arguments yet.

 

[Qurbonboev]

First of all, Groudon has also faced smaller opponents, hitting them after being hit while distracted, so for him it wouldn't be that much of a problem.

"Why is he bringing Charizard as example of small opponent?"
"Tf do you mean Charizards are smaller than me? Who wrote this in the Pokedex?"
IIRC pokemons can deviate significantly in size from each other. Alain Mega Charizard(one that fights Groudon) is much bigger than Ash Sheninja, who seems to be 1.5 m, somewhat equal to Ash. So yeah, Knight is smaller than Mega Charizard. And if Charizard had shapeshifting and teleportation during that moment, it would def dodge Precipice blades.

Well, from what I know, to summon a Titan, Knight would need at least a few seconds,

No. I already have said, to create fountain you need to only imbue sharp object with "will" and pierce the ground. Knight can summon swords instantly with thoughts, so summoning Titan would take practically no time.

which is enough time to use an attack like this one (which should be enough to at least kill Knight) or, if the AoE isn't big enough, this attack, which should be enough to kill both.

Practically any attack by Groudon is enough to kill Knight, question if Groudon can hit her. Even if his beams were x10 faster than Knight, dodging them from 100 meters isn't challenge by any means(let alone from kilometres).
That beam should be enough to kill Titan, IF solar beam can extend up to 1km at least, since it would need to hit everything in Titan, from bottom to top. And covering all of it would take significant time. Time that Knight would use to came even close, summon more Titans, conceal itself in their darkness. And judging by your link, destroying Titans via beam would take much more time than summoning them, which is quite bad.
Second link shows explosion that clearly resulted from beam clash between Kyogre and Groudon, and shouldn't be something that Groudon can produce on its own.
Also, without specific feats, explosions that results from Groudon attacks are assumed to have same speed as IRL shockwaves, so hypersonic speeds.
So for example, Groudon Beams themselves are either FTL or SoL(since they can tag FTL opponents, or are light beams), but explosions that result from them are hypersonic. In other words, Knight isn't getting hit by such explosions

 

[Friedoil11]

"Why is he bringing Charizard as example of small opponent?"
"Tf do you mean Charizards are smaller than me? Who wrote this in the Pokedex?"
IIRC pokemons can deviate significantly in size from each other. Alain Mega Charizard(one that fights Groudon) is much bigger than Ash Sheninja, who seems to be 1.5 m, somewhat equal to Ash. So yeah, Knight is smaller than Mega Charizard. And if Charizard had shapeshifting and teleportation during that moment, it would def dodge Precipice blades.

Btw, how big is Knight? I know you just said that it's smaller than Mega Charizatd X, but I'm trying to understand by how much does it differs from him in size.

 

[koopa3144]

I am asking why it is first move here, but not in previous fights?

If you're referring to Groudon's fights in Pokémon, like I said, Groudon is prob gonna use it over a beam here because of how fast the Knight can move.

If you're referring to Groudon's match vs The Batter, unless I'm misremembering, I also noted in that thread that PB is something Groudon would go for. Unlike the Knight, Batter was basically a sitting duck, so a single quick beam alone would suffice

No, they are by default made in Dark Worlds. We don't know how much of power and strength Knight retains in LW

Reading through the SBA rules again, I misremembered something. Unless I'm reading it wrong or if I'm just being stupid, only Time and Date are chosen in such a fashion that all characters are at their strongest; nothing about the SBA location itself changes for the characters to be at their strongest. So, unless the location changes, this fight is not in a dark world.

And obviously, Earthquake isn't first thing Groudon would do against flying foe. He would use earthquake only after Titans are summoned. But it would take some (minimal) time, which gives Knight time it needs

Groudon has seen the Knights fight vs Rexxar, and if it summoned Titans there, Groudon should be more than smart enough to at least think "Hm, thing stab ground with sword. Sword stab creates a big shadow monster. Must stop swords from piercing into the ground and creating big shadow monster." and shake the ground to stop the swords from piercing it.

?!?
1. You are responding to different thing

I wrote that post at like 5 am, don't judge me /j

2. My argument is that wings not being made from Dark(thus not vulnerable to the light) allows Titan to use it as cover against harsh sunlight.

I don't see how that makes a difference. The wings don't have the heat resistance to survive under the sun. Even if they could, If the concept art is accurate, the wings don't cover it's whole body, leaving the open parts of the body exposed to both the heat and light.

a) that's not now it actually works, you need much higher temperatures than their melting points to be able to actually cut through metals

The value I've been basing the argument on is for when metals vaporize/evaporate (2,862°C/5183.6 F). Groudon's heat emission is 9982.2°C/18,000 F, being > then Mons like Magcargo and Camerupt, so it should be way more than enough.

b) swords fire at FTL speed, which obviously makes any kind of transfer of thermal energy between sword and hot air very problematic. IRL humans can survive 28000K Lightning, since they contact it for very short amount of time. Knight sword would be under influence of hot air for even lesser time

Groudon can send out its body's heat to the point where it can hurt and burn nearby Mons from a farther distance than its natural heat emission, as seen with moves like Lava Plume. If the heat doesn't instantly evaporate the swords, the AP of his emission definitely will.

Did you forget the fact that Groudon is very big target? It would get hit by danmaku in both examples you provide purely because it such a big target.

Groudon's size does vary a lot, but Body Slam/Heat Crash instantly sends its user insanely high in the air to the point you can't even see the user if you look up.

Sending himself to the air doesn't save Groudon ass from bullets, maybe even endanger it even more, since it's much less mobile in the air.

Body Slam/Heat Crash sends the user back down instantly so any bullets are gonna be crushed under Groudon's body.

And Knight can always use Final Attack.

Why would they use their final attack first smh.
Bad move since it leaves them wide open for PB.

Not all Groudon moves have big AoE, and/or necessary AoE. Earthquake can cover great amounts of area, great. But how exactly they are damaging higher parts of Titan?

I'm talking about things like Beams and PB explosions for AOE. Groudon would likely know that Earthquake is not enough for something as big as a titan.

I'll reply to the rest in a bit, it's still the weekend and I'm still lazy.

 

[Bruhtelho]

lowkey any of the AOE groudon has just screws Knight over here, they have never fought or dealt with characters capable of creating them, the most we've seen is them dodging Susie's rude buster which... doesn't compare at all to Groudon creating Kilometer sized attacks with AOE aftereffects and a HUGE Heat advantage that'll vaporize Knight

Heavily leaning towards Groudon right now

 

[Qurbonboev]

If you're referring to Groudon's fights in Pokémon, like I said, Groudon is prob gonna use it over a beam here because of how fast the Knight can move.

Speed is equal, you know?

So, unless the location changes, this fight is not in a dark world.

We literally don't have light world key for Knight. There is only Dark World key for Knight. Same way you need to be in Dark World to fight Darkners or 8-A Lightners, you need to be in Dark World to fight 7-B Knight(and we don't have any other forms).

Groudon has seen the Knights fight vs Rexxar, and if it summoned Titans there

If. Knight would have summoned Titan in that fight in case Rexxar doesn't dies to normal danmaku, and even in that case triggering Final Attack is more likely choice.

I wrote that post at like 5 am, don't judge me /j

Understandable

(Forced to split replies here)

 

[Qurbonboev]

and shake the ground to stop the swords from piercing it.

Can you link examples of Groudon actually using this ability? Cus, if shaking stops the moment after Groudon uses it, it wouldn't be effective measure against Titan summoning. (Besides main goal of Titans summoning is distracting Groudon).

I don't see how that makes a difference. The wings don't have the heat resistance to survive under the sun. Even if they could, If the concept art is accurate, the wings don't cover it's whole body, leaving the open parts of the body exposed to both the heat and light.

Titan body parts scales to other darkners in heat resistance (5000K). So they won't melt just for being under harsh sunlight(again, best feat you guys provided for passive heat that would be present from the start, is vaporising huge amount of water, which is good, but not enough)

The value I've been basing the argument on is for when metals vaporize/evaporate (2,862°C/5183.6 F). Groudon's heat emission is 9982.2°C/18,000 F, being > then Mons like Magcargo and Camerupt, so it should be way more than enough.

I have already explained many times that it doesn't work like this. Many humans irl survived 28000K lightning. If this was more than enough to melt metals, nobody would bother to make 54000K plasma cutters irl. This is why this site requires prolonged temporal exposure as requirements for scaling heat resistance.

Groudon can send out its body's heat to the point where it can hurt and burn nearby Mons from a farther distance than its natural heat emission, as seen with moves like Lava Plume

This one is actual argument. He can actually stop swords with this. Unless, you know, Knight just spawns swords behind Groudon(can he even feel them if swords just spawn behind him?).

Groudon's size does vary a lot, but Body Slam/Heat Crash instantly sends its user insanely high in the air to the point you can't even see the user if you look up.

Need links for them, since previous videos didn't look like this. And Groudon wouldn't use it, if we doesn't know that Knight is spawning swords against it.

I'm talking about things like Beams and PB explosions for AOE. Groudon would likely know that Earthquake is not enough for something as big as a titan.

Only solar beams does look like as something that has enough AoE to do so. But covering all parts of Titan would take significant time. Time that Groudon is lacking here.

doesn't compare at all to Groudon creating Kilometer sized attacks with AOE aftereffects and a HUGE Heat advantage that'll vaporize Knight

Heat and AP advantage is obviously dangerous, ngl.
But what AoE is exactly dangerous for the Knight?:
1. Kilometer wide earthquake (against flying target)?
2. Giant ass explosions, that have hypersonic speed, like IRL shockwaves(against FTL opponent)?
3. Giant ass beam that at best is unquantifiablly faster than Groudon speed, and shouldn't be too hard to dodge from (at least) 100 metres, with shapeshifting and teleportation in the pockets?

 

[koopa3144]

1. Groudon will kill Roaring Knight before it crosses 4 km distance.
Knight has FTL movement speed, crossing 4 km distance obviously wouldn't take too much time. At best Groudon would get 1-2 free actions before facing Knight swords

Any free action time is a problem since:

Since PB can easily tag and trap comparable characters (Who can also move at FTL speed like the Knight) before they can avoid it, the Knight likely won't have time to do anything before they are impaled or blown up. They also can't really counter by doing something like flying up, since the RK has no way of knowing about PB beforehand, since in the last round, Groudon likely never uses it.

And since Groudon can use it instantly without any movement, The Knight's gonna run straight into PB before getting blown up.

Beams and Precipice Blades would tag Knight.
Groudon did tag other flying enemies with it. But Knight is more mobile than flying opponents Groudon faced, has shapeshifting and teleportation, and is much smaller than Kyogre or Rayquaza.

Is it really? At most, we've seen it avoid a few of Undyne's spears and a few of Susie's Rude Busters. It's a big stretch to say that they can go from that to avoiding dozens of PB's and the large AOE explosions, even a single one can make. Shapeshifting into a Bird here is just gonna run them into a PB. Also, the Knight has never used teleportation to avoid attacks. And as I said before, the last round gives them no info on the power gap or anything really. So even if you argue they would use teleporting if they feel endangered, the Knight has nothing indicating to it that any attack Groudon lands would end its life or that it's even a particularly dangerous opponent.

Groudon wouldn't use earthquake (ground move, duh) against Knight, before she starts summoning

Groudon has seen the Knights fight vs Rexxar, and if it summoned Titans there, Groudon should be more than smart enough to at least think "Hm, thing stab ground with sword. Sword stab creates a big shadow monster. Must stop swords from piercing into the ground and creating big shadow monster." and shake the ground to stop the swords from piercing it.

Sups didn't answer my question on "how high passive heat of Groudon is in the start".

It's natural heat emitted is > Normal fire types who can passively output 18,000 F.

These moves require significant time for setup

Not really, at most it takes a single moment of prep (Which is likely just a ZA balancing thing since other instances of the move don't require it), which isn't a crazy time sink since the Knight's swords also tend to take a moment before sending themselves at a target.

And they wouldn't be that useful against danmaku like this. You dodged first sword via jumping, good, now dodge second sword while in the air (also, address circle of doom that would envelop Groudon from each side).

Groudon can pretty easily deal with that via Lava Plume or other moves where it sends AOE from it's body

Knight just triggers final attack, lift Groudon from the ground, and deals with it via duraneg bullets or spatial cut.

Bad move since it leaves them wide open for PB.

Also, how would it lift Groudon? They don't have any gravity manip, and assuming its TK it gets LS diffed.

Got stuff to do, I'll reply to new stuff in like 3-4 hours.

 

[Friedoil11]

Heat and AP advantage is obviously dangerous, ngl.
But what AoE is exactly dangerous for the Knight?:
1. Kilometer wide earthquake (against flying target)?
2. Giant ass explosions, that have hypersonic speed, like IRL shockwaves(against FTL opponent)?
3. Giant ass beam that at best is unquantifiablly faster than Groudon speed, and shouldn't be too hard to dodge from (at least) 100 metres, with shapeshifting and teleportation in the pockets?

Maybe, just maybe, a small little solar beam of about 4,33 kilometers in diameter.

 

[Qurbonboev]

It's a big stretch to say that they can go from that to avoiding dozens of PB's and the large AOE explosions, even a single one can make.

Only in one example you provided enemy was hit directly by precipice, and he was clearly caught off guard. In other enemy was surrounded by them, and then blades exploded after some time. Knight as smaller and more manoeuvrable one, would easily be able to free itself.
And do not bring up AoE explosion. Explosions itself are hypersonic in speed, there is no difficulty for FTL opponent to dodge shockwaves from them.
And right after Titans are summoned, Groudon would likely target them over Knight, giving her some breath. And if Groudon first uses beam, Knight would easily dodge it, purely due to distance involved.

And as I said before, the last round gives them no info on the power gap or anything really. So even if you argue they would use teleporting if they feel endangered

Groudon literally vaporised enemy with giant ass beam in previous fight. Knight would obviously understand how dangerous is enemy.

Groudon can pretty easily deal with that via Lava Plume or other moves where it sends AOE from it's body

I already addressed this. It won't use defense moves, if it doesn't see swords from behind.

They don't have any gravity manip, and assuming its TK it gets LS diffed

Unless Groudon has flight, TK on its own, it wouldn't be exert it's LS to counter act Knight TK. Reminder, Knight does need to only lift barely 1 tonn Groudon, not continental plates. This likely wouldn't matter, since Groudon would get killed before it from normal danmaku.

It's natural heat emitted is > Normal fire types who can passively output 18,000 F.

This one is actually important thing. Now, I need to know:
How high of heat it can produce from the get go(from the start), over what area, how high time it does needs to kickstarts heat to absurd degrees, why isn't he killing everything in it? Everything with scans

 

[Bruhtelho]

Kilometer wide earthquake (against flying target)?

Groudon isn't stupid, Pokemon are incredibly smart in combat and he isn't gonna be using ground move (which flying pokemon are immune too) against someone who is flying, unless the move in specific has the AOE to hit said flyers like Precipice Blades which spikes up outta the ground trapping the opponent.

2. Giant ass explosions, that have hypersonic speed, like IRL shockwaves(against FTL opponent)?

why are you brining up IRL stuff when Pokemon works nothing like that? Groudon is FTL in everything just like the Roaring Knight is and has a number of amps that'll give him an even bigger advantage. most pokemon struggle to react to groudons attacks unless they are his equals like Kyogre or Rayquaza

3. Giant ass beam that at best is unquantifiablly faster than Groudon speed, and shouldn't be too hard to dodge from (at least) 100 metres, with shapeshifting and teleportation in the pockets?

the only one they have ever used to dodge was Shapeshifting and mobility, we've never seen them TP to avoid an attack before. and said Giant ass beams leave behind an after effect that produces the explosion that'd appear behind the Roaring Knight or all around them which share the same heat value as itself

 

[Qurbonboev]

Groudon isn't stupid

I obviously know that Groudon won't use earthquake against Knight. I was just listing it as examples of Groudon moves with giant AoE that won't work against Knight.
But it would use it against Titans(unsuccessfully), which would waste it precious time.

why are you brining up IRL stuff when Pokemon works nothing like that?

Uhh...
Because only way we can powerscale verse is by applying IRL stuff. If pokemon verse doesn't work like IRL at all, how can you scale it at all? If you claim that shockwaves from explosions are actually FTL in the verse(without pretty clear and undisputable feats), what is stopping me to claim that Speed of Light in Pokémon is much slower than IRL? Or continental plates are much lighter than IRL? We are forced to apply IRL stuff for fictional verses, it's just how it works.

Groudon is FTL in everything

Is MFTL+ character uses sonic attacks to target enemies, attack speed of sonic attacks still remains transonic. If that character just uses normal counterpart's guns(just more powerful), bullets from it still would remain supersonic/hypersonic. If he somehow manages to hit equal speed opponents with them, it would be categorised as PiS, outlier, or anti-feat.
If FTL characters can speak with each other while running, we don't assume that they can produce FTL sound waves (we just chalk it off as writers not wanting to deal with this shit).
Unless Groudon has clear proofs that he can boost speed of shockwaves of his explosions, they would remain at same speed as IRL shockwaves, aka hypersonic, aka snail speed for combatants here.

and said Giant ass beams leave behind an after effect that produces the explosion

Already addressed part about explosions

we've never seen them TP to avoid an attack before.

But we do see it use TP in the battle without issues. And unless someone downgrades her intelligence to below average, she would use it for dodging

Looking at my original response, I think I was too condescending. Sorry about that, this debate is getting hot

 

[Friedoil11]

Looking at my original response, I think I was too condescending. Sorry about that, this debate is getting hot

I really need to stop drinking at a fountain.