• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Kamen Rider Cosmology Scaling: Part 2 (Everything Else)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Random-Helper323 said:
I can. Still, is there any way to explain the arguments in a way that can be understood by someone who's never seen any of this show?
Click to expand...
Here's my and Slash's attempt to explain the scaling for those who didn't know the show:

Jamesthetaker said:
To my best attempt to simplify this:

Kamen Rider is a huge franchise starting from 1975 up until today, currently reaching 40 series at the time this thread is made. Each series is being produced annually, with the TV series being the main one, along with numerous crossovers and spin-off specials. The franchise is split into three eras: Showa era (1975-1994), Heisei era (2000-2019), Reiwa (2019-ongoing). Because of the massive amount of works produced throughout the years, the thread was split into two parts.

The first thread deals with Showa scaling, which brings 1-C scaling into play. The reason for this is that Showa Riders can survive and nullify the Space Time Rupture System, which is said to erase all existence beyond space-time and dimensions, including all of the dimensions listed on the cosmology page (7-D), which were accepted here.

In this second thread, which will handle the next two eras: Heisei and Reiwa. Thanks to the previous thread, their scaling is simply brought over by crossovering with Showa Riders.
  1. All Riders vs Dai Shocker: The movie where every Riders up to Decade is brought together to fight against the main villains.
  2. Ghost: Appearance! The Mysterious Warrior!/Kamen Rider 1: Both movies brought back Kamen Rider Ichigo with his power-up form. They were aired during Kamen Rider Ghost's run, so all Riders from his series onward also get 1-C scaling.
  3. Girls Remix/Outsiders: These two are sort of their own spin-off series where they brought several previous Riders into one big crossover during Reiwa era.
    1. The scaling goes in this order: Ghost fights alongside Saber, Saber fights alongside Revice, Revice fights alongside Geats.
  4. Geats Extras: Kamen Rider Tycoon meets Kamen Rider Shinobi: Another spin-off featuring several Ninja Riders fighting together, with the appearance of Showa Riders Kamen Rider ZX to solidify the scaling even further.
(Yes, I'm using Youtube clips and reaction videos to save time)

1-A and High 1-A scaling are a little bit more tricky, though.
  • 1-A scaling originally came from this thread, where it's argued that Kamen Rider Gaim, after ascending to godhood, is 1-A. He is usually referred to as Man of The Beginning (MOTB)
  • Zi-O Riders would scale to 1-A due to the Ridewatch (page not fully updated yet btw), which contains not only a Rider's power source but also his or her entire history, essence, story, and so on. Gaim Ridewatch contains his power and nature as MOTB. Therefore, it scales all Ridewatch users to 1-A.
  • God Geats is getting 1-A for the reasons stated in the OP, aka he is described as having a similar existence to MOTB Gaim.
High 1-A is the tier that is reserved only for two types:
  • The Almighty Book: A concept in Kamen Rider that, like the Akashic Record, represents the sum of all ideas, possibilities, and concepts within the Kamen Riderverse. Further detail is on the cosmology page (Baseline High 1-A)
  • Kamen Rider Oma Zi-O: He has every single Riderwatch power, including that of Saber (High 1-A). Because of how Ridewatch works, he would also have the Almighty Book power (unfortunately, I can only find toy videos so I probably will get the actual clip later)
  • Shotaro Ishinomori/The Real World: Both have feats of transcending/viewing the entirety of the Kamen Rider verse as fictional, giving them one layer into High 1-A. Once again, detail is in the cosmology page.
That is basically what I can trim down. Are there any parts that you need us to elaborate upon?
Click to expand...
Shadowslash125 said:
So Kamen means masked in Japanese. The official english translations have them be called Masked Rider. Rider is because they ride sick ass motorcycles that are a staple to the series (though the recent Japan laws on private and customized vehicles have reduced the riding scenes by a lot. First time seeing someone think of caimen from the kamen, but it's understandable. We do make jokes here and there about Men Riders (remove the ka from kamen, ???, then profit).

Or are you asking to break down the big ass cosmology scaling? Basically, the cosmology got accepted here, making almost everyone who interacted with The Place beyond Space-Time be 1-C (7-D). The Showa Cosmology Scaling thread makes it clearer that any modern riders (the ones being scaled here) have fought together/against the Showa Riders, meaning they scale along the lines of their AP. Most Riders fit the former category, and only a few other Riders go beyond it.

Saver's ascension caused anyone with a Saver System to ascend alongside him. Gaim's power from the Golden Fruit is far superior from the false one, yet the false one is enough to get Saver to 1-A, hence him also being 1-A.
The Ridewatches are able to absorb and obtain Gaim's entire everything, including what made him 1-A in the first place. Due to this nature, any Ridewatch users are 1-A, including those that transmute a Ridewatch into their transformation trinket, hence why certain characters like Agito are able to be 1-A despite normally not having the means (and this is temporary, like the Saver System).
Geats' ascension is similar in vein to Gaim's, the difference is that he transcended from death and logic as a whole.

Only a few characters scale to High 1-A for either of these reasons:
Those that actually got plucked out into the real world where the entire Kamen Rider franchise is considered fiction become that for obvious reasons, including any supporting character that doesn't actually fight.
  • Another similar reason (mainly for Geats) is that he is directly powered by the audience of the real world. Since the film where this feat happened are first shown in cinemas, it gives evidence that real life kids and some diehard adults empowered Geats to fight the big bad, despite having all his stats ripped from his d&d character sheet.
Saber's Almighty Book powers were absorbed into the Ridewatch similarly to the Gaim 1-A (besides the book being High 1-A, already accepted in the cosmology).

EDIT: James beat me to the punch.

SECOND EDIT: Decade's ridecard system is a Ridewatch before a Ridewatch, the only difference being that he's bestowed the respective Rider's entire powerset and abilities and whatnot instead of just absorbing the powers away. So he also gets 1-A from Gaim.
Click to expand...
 
Having all abilities of other riders could make scaling possible.

Is the one who is Tiered at 1-A narratively treated as absurdly stronger than the others?
 
Last edited:
Random-Helper323 said:
Is the one who is Tiered at 1-A narratively treated as absurdly stronger than the others?
Click to expand...
Generally, yes.

Example 1: In Kamen Rider Geats episode 48, Geats was up against Regad Omega. Both of them were evenly matched until Regad Omega reversed time to undo Geats transformation. In the next episode 49, Geats comes back ascended to godhood, which makes him unaffected by time manipulation, then he proceeds to destroy Regad Omega.

Example 2: In Kamen Rider Gaim novel, Armored Rider team fought against Saver in his physical form. Until Saver ascended further and vaporized everyone with his light, turning them into mind/soul energy with his higher plane.

Although the nature of a long-running franchise like Kamen Rider means that there are many instances of "everybody can fight everybody," the OP did mention the PIS/outliers which caused several profiles or keys that will be removed because they have no reason to scale to 1-A.
 
I don't really understand why Geats is treated as H1-A? Isn't that weird, also considering that the scene shown doesn't have any evidence of the audience being referenced (whether it's a real world audience nor a future audience as James said).

Besides, if that's acceptable, then several characters who appeared in the Zi-O stage show should also get the same result, considering that Showa asked the audience to give the Riders power.
(Even memories will be treated as H1-A)

Also, I don't really understand how y'all (or only you) scale Solomon & Storius as H1-A (I know the Almighty Book is H1-A here, but they only get half the power of the Almighty Book (even though Storius is stated to have abilities almost close to the Almighty Book)

I think it would make sense to place them in the 1-A position.
BERRIES555 said:
Hello everyone, if you've been following our activity here, it is known that Kamen Riders have recently undergone two revisions. A revision that upgraded our verse into 1-A and a revision that upgraded a cornerstone of our franchise. The rest of the verse will be covered in this revision, from Heisei Phase 1 to Reiwa.


  • Profiles Affected: Agito (Post Dai-Shocker), Ryuki (Post Dai-Shocker - Desire Royale), Knight (Rider Time: Ryuki - Desire Royale), Ouja (Kamen Rider Brave - Outsiders), Odin (Post-Oma Day - Outsiders), Ryuga (Desire Royale), Faiz (Post Dai-Shocker), Blade (Post Dai Shocker), Garren (Outsiders), Hibiki (Post Dai-Shocker), Kabuto (Post Dai Shocker), Den-O (Post Dai Shocker), Zeronos (Post Oma Day), Kiva (Post Dai Shocker), Decade (Post Dai-Shocker and Movie War 2010), DiEnd (Kamen Rider DiEnd), AR Kabuto (Post Resurrection), Kivala (Kamen Rider Kivala - Zi-O vs Decade), Apollo Geist (DCD) (Apollo Geist - Super Apollo Geist), G (Kamen Rider G)
    • Reasoning: This is a straightforward upgrade. During the events of Dai-Shocker and Movie War 2010, all the Riders from Kamen Rider Ichigo to Kamen Rider Decade gather together to fight against Dai-Shocker. Additionally, Kamen Rider Decade has demonstrated superiority over all of these Riders in his battles against numerous Showa and Heisei Riders. Now, why the 1-C rating? Simple: The many Riders included in the verse-wide slaughter that Decade included were ZO, someone who was accepted to be 100x Baseline 7-D. All the characters listed above would scale to ZO and would later get stronger as time progresses.


  • Profiles Affected: PunchHopper (Post Oma Day), Todoroki (Post Oma Day), KickHopper (Post Oma Day)
    • Reasoning: The characters listed above are considered to be 1-C (6-D) due to scaling to characters appearing in Kamen Rider Zi-O. Later in this thread, Zi-O Riders will have a 1-A rating, and as per wiki rules, we cannot simply powerscale people into 1-A as they need their own reasoning. As such, the three profiles provided will be downgraded from their 1-C rating back to their original values or simply removed altogether due to a lack of usable feats.







  • Profiles Affected: Zero One (Reiwa The First Generation) (Zero-One - ZeroZero-One), Ichi-Gata (Reiwa The First Generation)
    • Reasoning: Just like the other downgrades, these two Riders' only feats come from scaling and not from any other external sources. Due to the fact that the Riders they scale to are 1-A, Zero One, and Ichi-Gata will not be receiving a 1-A upgrade and will be reduced to the level of their original universe selves.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:
Click to expand...
I don't really understand why Geats is treated as H1-A? Isn't that weird, also considering that the scene shown doesn't have any evidence of the audience being referenced (whether it's a real world audience nor a future audience as James said).

Besides, if that's acceptable, then several characters who appeared in the Zi-O stage show should also get the same result, considering that Showa asked the audience to give the Riders power.
(Even memories will be treated as H1-A)

Also, I don't really understand how y'all (or only you) scale Solomon & Storius as H1-A (I know the Almighty Book is H1-A here, but they only get half the power of the Almighty Book (even though Storius is stated to have abilities almost close to the Almighty Book)

I think it would make sense to place them in the 1-A position.
 
the_doctor said:
Also, I don't really understand how y'all (or only you) scale Solomon & Storius as H1-A (I know the Almighty Book is H1-A here, but they only get half the power of the Almighty Book (even though Storius is stated to have abilities almost close to the Almighty Book)

I think it would make sense to place them in the 1-A position.
Click to expand...
1-A and above tiering can't be divided quantitatively. The argument I gave is that only Touma's Wonder Almighty is the real Almighty Book. Whether Solomon or Storius is said to be "almost close" to Almighty Book doesn't really matter. At best, they'll get High 1-A as environmental destruction for pushing the end of the world.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
1-A and above tiering can't be divided quantitatively. The argument I gave is that only Touma's Wonder Almighty is the real Almighty Book. Whether Solomon or Storius is said to be "almost close" to Almighty Book doesn't really matter. At best, they'll get High 1-A as environmental destruction for pushing the end of the world.
Click to expand...
Kinda make sense too me, thanks for clarifying
 
ok ive seen some kamen rider clips and what i understand. geats got his oneness form after having 3/4 of his powers stolen. From what i remember, while geats did have the upper hand for most of the fight, he still had to put in effort at some points. if there really was a qualitiative difference wouldnt he be neg diffing
 
Thunderman101 said:
ok ive seen some kamen rider clips and what i understand. geats got his oneness form after having 3/4 of his powers stolen. From what i remember, while geats did have the upper hand for most of the fight, he still had to put in effort at some points. if there really was a qualitiative difference wouldnt he be neg diffing
Click to expand...
i said before we ""could"" say geats lost his smarts (dont know how to fight has to relearn on the spot ) before the fight he was fighting with a stat stick plus Xgeats is also should have a higher tier spark just to equal stats/or his other gods (haxes) abilities he absorbed
 
Jeodood said:
i said before we ""could"" say geats lost his smarts (dont know how to fight has to relearn on the spot ) before the fight he was fighting with a stat stick plus Xgeats is also should have a higher tier spark just to equal stats/or his other gods abilities absorbed
Click to expand...
Even if he doesn't know how to fight x geeks shouldn't be able to harm him at all. He should be stomping him regardless of fight capacity and not if it's a qualitative difference. The real world and Kamen Rider is above anything like God to your abilities if I'm right?
 
Yeah, the XGeats fight was one of my concerns for High 1-A Oneness.
The fight is either an outlier (which would be kinda weird, given the context) or that form isn't High 1-A.
 
Late reply, but:
Random-Helper323 said:
Is the one who is Tiered at 1-A narratively treated as absurdly stronger than the others?
Click to expand...
Jamesthetaker said:
Generally, yes.

Example 1: In Kamen Rider Geats episode 48, Geats was up against Regad Omega. Both of them were evenly matched until Regad Omega reversed time to undo Geats transformation. In the next episode 49, Geats comes back ascended to godhood, which makes him unaffected by time manipulation, then he proceeds to destroy Regad Omega.

Example 2: In Kamen Rider Gaim novel, Armored Rider team fought against Saver in his physical form. Until Saver ascended further and vaporized everyone with his light, turning them into mind/soul energy with his higher plane.

Although the nature of a long-running franchise like Kamen Rider means that there are many instances of "everybody can fight everybody," the OP did mention the PIS/outliers which caused several profiles or keys that will be removed because they have no reason to scale to 1-A.
Click to expand...
To add to the examples, Zi-O Riders and Another Riders are far stronger than any other riders/monsters in the series, to the point that the Zi-O riders can beat these Another Riders beyond certain exceptions (Like the Another Riders must be defeated by the Original Rider they are based on or by being Decade, who's also part of the Saver thing.

Random-Helper323 said:
I can.
Click to expand...
Please do. For a crt this important, it's taking quite the long ball time while others of equal importance are being cleared within at most a week. Jame's (and mine, to an extent) have ran down the points for non-Rider scalers/staffs. Beyond that, I'll also try and notify reasonable staff members about this, to varying chaces of success.
Jamesthetaker said:
Here's my and Slash's attempt to explain the scaling for those who didn't know the show:
Click to expand...
 
Also

Random-Helper323 said:
Is the one who is Tiered at 1-A narratively treated as absurdly stronger than the others?
Click to expand...
James and ShadowSlash addressed this here:
Jamesthetaker said:
Generally, yes.

Example 1: In Kamen Rider Geats episode 48, Geats was up against Regad Omega. Both of them were evenly matched until Regad Omega reversed time to undo Geats transformation. In the next episode 49, Geats comes back ascended to godhood, which makes him unaffected by time manipulation, then he proceeds to destroy Regad Omega.

Example 2: In Kamen Rider Gaim novel, Armored Rider team fought against Saver in his physical form. Until Saver ascended further and vaporized everyone with his light, turning them into mind/soul energy with his higher plane.

Although the nature of a long-running franchise like Kamen Rider means that there are many instances of "everybody can fight everybody," the OP did mention the PIS/outliers which caused several profiles or keys that will be removed because they have no reason to scale to 1-A.
Click to expand...
And here:
Shadowslash125 said:
Late reply, but:


To add to the examples, Zi-O Riders and Another Riders are far stronger than any other riders/monsters in the series, to the point that the Zi-O riders can beat these Another Riders beyond certain exceptions (Like the Another Riders must be defeated by the Original Rider they are based on or by being Decade, who's also part of the Saver thing.


Please do. For a crt this important, it's taking quite the long ball time while others of equal importance are being cleared within at most a week. Jame's (and mine, to an extent) have ran down the points for non-Rider scalers/staffs. Beyond that, I'll also try and notify reasonable staff members about this, to varying chaces of success.
Click to expand...

It's done, now give me the garlic bread, Slash
 
EddisherSound said:
It's done, now give me the garlic bread, Slash
Click to expand...
images
 
Jeodood said:
i said before we ""could"" say geats lost his smarts (dont know how to fight has to relearn on the spot ) before the fight he was fighting with a stat stick plus Xgeats is also should have a higher tier spark just to equal stats/or his other gods (haxes) abilities he absorbed
Click to expand...
just rewatched the movie Xgeats did say "whoops , did i destroy the future audience too?" for that slight extra evidence( unless movie subs are wrong?)
 
Man do I love it when a month long important ass crt still needs one more staff while crts of similar magnitudes gets all the attention like moths to a flame. Hey look, our crt got skipped for another one yet again-
 
I am not seeing anything really egregious or wrong from overview especially of the past threads that accepted the tiering rating so I think I am fine with the current proposals.
 
Last edited:
1-A and High 1-A tiering upgrade:
Removal of Tier 1 key/Downgrade:
  • Downgrade:
    • Zero One (Reiwa The First Generation) (Zero-One - ZeroZero-One)
    • Ichi-Gata (Reiwa The First Generation)
  • Tier 1 key removal:

Finished with these profiles.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
1-A and High 1-A tiering upgrade:
Removal of Tier 1 key/Downgrade:
  • Downgrade:
    • Zero One (Reiwa The First Generation) (Zero-One - ZeroZero-One)
    • Ichi-Gata (Reiwa The First Generation)
  • Tier 1 key removal:

Finished with these profiles.
Click to expand...
Hey James can den o get 1a rating from using a summon from grand zi-o ?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

BERRIES555
  • Locked
Kamen Rider Scaling Revision: Part 1 (Showa) Concluded
3 4 5
Replies
178
Views
21K
BERRIES555
BERRIES555
Lonkitt
  • Locked
Kamen Rider Shin: Civilian AP Upgrade, LS Upgrades, and Key Revisions
Replies
27
Views
2K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
Rutæhh
[Greenverse - Major Revisions] Part 1: Cosmology (Tier 1 upgrade) 1 More Staff Vote Needed
2
Replies
59
Views
4K
Jepilstiltskin
Jepilstiltskin
Friedoil11
Tier 9 Humanoid Tournament Round 1 Match 5: Khatep vs Kamen Rider Geats
Replies
19
Views
918
Friedoil11
Friedoil11
SweetDao
Mr.G(oated) gets a cosmology [1/2]
Replies
17
Views
2K
SweetDao
SweetDao
Back
Top