Dragon Ball Minor addition

[ChoursDropoff]

Trunks’ Sword of Hope


Proposed Abilities:
Soul Damage, Durability Negation , and Regeneration Negation (High-Mid, possibly higher)


Possible Low Godly Regeneration (for Zamasu)



I’ll make this very simple, Trunks was able to kill Zamasu with the sword of hope as we know already. Which comprises the souls of every human on earth. Ki Manipulation is already accepted to have the ability to interact with the soul giving it both Soul and Ectoplasm manipulation [see thread here].


Ki manipulation is already accepted to interact with spiritual aspects of a being, which allows for arguments involving both soul and ectoplasmic interaction. The Spirit Bomb itself is described as gathering the life energy of all living organisms (humans, animals, nature, etc.), referred to as Genki (元気). During his fight, Trunks unconsciously gathers and weaponizes this same energy into the Sword of Hope.


Many interpret Trunks’ victory as purely a result of higher attack potency. However, this interpretation is incomplete.



Zamasu’s Regeneration and “Cheat Character” Status


Zamasu is explicitly treated as a “cheat character” by the editorial staff, even after his immortality is altered through fusion. His regenerative capabilities are shown to exceed those of characters such as Majin Buu and Cell. This is supported by his ability to recover from attacks by Super Saiyan Blue Vegito, Trunks’ prior assaults, and even the Final Kamehameha.


This establishes the following rough scaling:

• SSJB Vegito > Corrupted Zamasu > Fusion Zamasu > SSJB Kaioken ×10 ≈ Sword of Hope Trunks > Base/SSJ Trunks

Despite this, Trunks is still able to critically damage Zamasu.



Mechanics of the Sword of Hope


The Spirit Bomb gathers energy from:

• Humans
• Animals
• Nature (atmosphere, environment, etc.)

In Dragon Ball Super, this energy is called Genki, which represents the life energy of living beings and is a fundamental component of Ki.


Ki is consistently described as a form of spiritual energy. It is invisible and formless until shaped and projected by the user. The act of manipulating Ki involves drawing upon one’s internal spiritual energy and externalizing it for various applications. Because of this, interacting with Ki can be argued to involve interaction with the spiritual aspect of a being.


When Trunks forms the Sword of Hope, he gathers this collective life energy and channels it into a concentrated attack.



Supporting Statements


In the preview for Episode 67, it is stated that Trunks:

• DBS Preview

“Uses the power of humanity’s feelings (hope/will) to land a decisive blow on Zamasu.”

• Gawasu

“The balance between Zamasu’s Soul and Body is becoming unstable”

• Narrator

“Trunks uses the spirits of all Future inhabitants”


Additionally, within the episode, Zamasu himself comments on the energy from humanity “boring into him.” And after that he was incapable of regenerating again.


Minor stuff: Zamasu seems to agree physical attacks are ineffective against him. Trunks also agrees that everyone’s power defeated him when Goku comments on how his attack is like a spirit bomb.


Following this, Zamasu:

• Loses his physical form
• Expands and spreads across the sky as a non-corporeal presence

Conclusion


Given the above:

• The Sword of Hope is powered by the collective life energy (Genki) of humanity
• Ki, as a spiritual energy, supports interaction beyond purely physical matter
• The attack is effective against a character with extreme regeneration and abnormal durability

Therefore, it can be argued that the Sword of Hope:

• Exhibits spiritual interaction, which may support soul-based interaction interpretations. I.E Soul Damage
• Demonstrates durability negation due to its effectiveness against Zamasu
• Can be interpreted as overcoming high-level regeneration , though Zamasu’s continued existence complicates full regeneration negation claims

Moro

Spoiler: Dbs manga moro

Data & Memory Absorption

Can absorb both the memories of fighters and can absorb their Data in Seven Three’s case.

Spoiler: Dbs manga moro

Fear Hax


Goku after feeling Moro’s ki calls it terrifying and even notes that it wasn’t strong at all. Which Vegeta backs up. This means that Goku was not intimidated by the amount of ki but rather by its nature.

I would also like to make it a point to show the story has very obvious distinctions between being intimidated because of your opponent Chi supply and just having blatantly unsettling Chi.

Staff Opinion:

SomebodyData (agrees with memory and data absorption, thinks SoH has Soul and unconditional regeneration negation disagree with fear manipulation)​

Actuallyspaceman: Agrees with Soul Manipulation and “Mind Reading”

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Read this beforehand and I found myself agreeing then and agreeing now. The only thing I’m unsure about is fear inducement. I think it should qualify as per its definition and examples from different CRTs. At worst it would probably be limited.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I suppose the SoH stuff should be fine? At the very least I think it's agreeable it is a soul-based interaction. For the Low-Godly Zamasu stuff I am unsure. The cheat character stuff is strong and it is also true Vegito, despite being far stronger, couldn't overcome his regeneration which clearly puts it far beyond Majin Buu's level. I'm just not so sure where that should actually scale it however.

As for Moro, no I don't think Memory Absorption adds up. Wouldn't absorption imply he took the memory from Buu? In reality he just read Buu's memories. Which is covered under him having Telepathy. Similar for Data Absorption, where is it implied OG-73 or Moro-73 outright absorb data? They merely copy it and OG-73 accumulates data via experience and copying.

Fear Manipulation on the other hand may be fine. Seeing as it is induced via the supernatural qualities of Moro's Ki and is a consequence of his power being a sort of mass soul amalgamate. That does, in my mind, go beyond mere Social Influencing.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

I suppose the SoH stuff should be fine? At the very least I think it's agreeable it is a soul-based interaction. For the Low-Godly Zamasu stuff I am unsure. The cheat character stuff is strong and it is also true Vegito, despite being far stronger, couldn't overcome his regeneration which clearly puts it far beyond Majin Buu's level. I'm just not so sure where that should actually scale it however.

Well for the regeneration stuff it was already established that he has immortality that surpassed both Buu and Cell. And since trunks needed to attack him on some non physical level it would likely imply some form of higher regeneration. Particularly one that needs to to attack his unstable soul.

As for Moro, no I don't think Memory Absorption adds up. Wouldn't absorption imply he took the memory from Buu? In reality he just read Buu's memories. Which is covered under him having Telepathy. Similar for Data Absorption, where is it implied OG-73 or Moro-73 outright absorb data? They merely copy it and OG-73 accumulates data via experience and copying.

Yeah maybe copying Data is the right terminology rather than absorbing.

 

[Killerdrone123]

I guess possibly low godly can work for Zamasu

SoH seems fine to be applied from a glance

Agree with Fear haxs for moro

 

[Shar122]

Looks good.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I’ll make this very simple, Trunks was able to kill Zamasu with the sword of hope as we know already. Which comprises the souls of every human on earth. Ki Manipulation is already accepted to have the ability to interact with the soul giving it both Soul and Ectoplasm manipulation [see thread here].

Just wanted to point out that Ki doesn't have offensive Soul Manipulation (Soul Damage) anymore. Only Soul Manipulation it has rn is self-Soul Manipulation. Only specific applications of Ki (like Spirit Control, something that hasn't been brought up in anime continuity yet and that one needs training to attain) have it. That being said:

Zamasu is explicitly treated as a “cheat character” by the editorial staff, even after his immortality is altered through fusion. His regenerative capabilities are shown to exceed those of characters such as Majin Buu and Cell. This is supported by his ability to recover from attacks by Super Saiyan Blue Vegito, Trunks’ prior assaults, and even the Final Kamehameha.

This is already taken in consideration for his Mid-High regen. Tbh, I don't see anything that might imply Low-Godly, even as a possibly.

Ki is consistently described as a form of spiritual energy. It is invisible and formless until shaped and projected by the user. The act of manipulating Ki involves drawing upon one’s internal spiritual energy and externalizing it for various applications. Because of this, interacting with Ki can be argued to involve interaction with the spiritual aspect of a being.


When Trunks forms the Sword of Hope, he gathers this collective life energy and channels it into a concentrated attack.

Not proof of Soul Damage. This is what is currently accepted to be Self-Soul Manipulation on the Ki page.

• DBS Preview

“Uses the power of humanity’s feelings (hope/will) to land a decisive blow on Zamasu.”

Not proof of Soul Damage. This is, maybe, Empowerment.

• Gawasu

“The balance between Zamasu’s Soul and Body is becoming unstable”

Idk why this is used as proof of Soul Damage tbh. The balance of Zamasu's Soul and Body has nothing to do with Trunks' Sword of Hope.

• Narrator

“Trunks uses the spirits of all Future inhabitants”

Going by previous context + statements, spirit here refers to their will, not their literal soul.

And, well, even if Trunks received part of their Genki energy, that is not enough for Soul Damage anyway, given there is no proof of Trunks actively targeting one's soul. At least, no proof presented. Though the part of Zamasu's body and soul balance becoming unstable might have something. If there is some context of Trunks causing even more unstability it might work.

Continuing.

Additionally, within the episode, Zamasu himself comments on the energy from humanity “boring into him.” And after that he was incapable of regenerating again.

Uh... I'm sorry, but doesn't this completely deny your previous argument, though? Zamasu here is surprised by the  energy that the sword contains, and by its  power, the amount of different energies (that being, the hope and will of humans as the context implies) that is flowing inside him, not a durability negation attack that is targetting his soul instead of his body (rather, context suggests his body, his insides are targeted).

Zamasu could regenerate from previous attacks because the damage done was superficial, not boring into him like in this occasion where the sword stabbed through him.

Minor stuff: Zamasu seems to agree physical attacks are ineffective against him.

Uh... scan doesn't say nothing even close to what you claim here, btw.

• The Sword of Hope is powered by the collective life energy (Genki) of humanity
• Ki, as a spiritual energy, supports interaction beyond purely physical matter
• The attack is effective against a character with extreme regeneration and abnormal durability

Being powered by a part of Ki isn't even close to targetting the enemy's soul with your attacks, though. Dragon Ball's Ki is comprised of 3 components, one of them being Genki, or "Spirit". Genkidama, and Trunks' sword, which is a similar concept, take that component of ki from those who want to share it to amp their power, but that doesn't mean their attacks have an inherent soul damaging property.

I'd also like to mention that Trunks could  affect Zamasu with his attacks. His durability is, by no means, superior to the slashes per the very scans this thread has brought up. So, that part is wrong.

Therefore, it can be argued that the Sword of Hope:

• Exhibits spiritual interaction, which may support soul-based interaction interpretations. I.E Soul Damage

The spiritual interaction comes from a mechanic of Genkidama —absorbing Genki energy—, not the sword damaging with the target's soul, which is what you're trying to give to Trunks here.

• Demonstrates durability negation due to its effectiveness against Zamasu

I honestly cannot see where this comes from. You haven't shown Zamasu's durability being superior to Trunks' amped sword. You have, in fact, shown the opposite: Trunks' Sword of Hope damaging Zamasu and the latter needing to regenerate from the damage received.

• Can be interpreted as overcoming high-level regeneration , though Zamasu’s continued existence complicates full regeneration negation claims

Zamasu's continued existence isn't granted by his regeneration, but because he fused with the fabric of the universe. So the regeneration negation arguments aren't invalid in any way because of that.

And, as I previously explained, you can't compare superficial slashes to the sword piercing through Zamasu's body and its energy overflowing his insides so he cannot regenerate.

So, I disagree with soul manipulation. That aside

Can absorb both the memories of fighters

Nowhere in this scan it is said that 73 absorbs memories. I'd recommend to put more context of the scene.

absorb their Data in Seven Three’s case.

This scan doesn't imply that 73 absorbs people's Data. Just that his data includes the events of Moro using the Dragon Balls, an event he personally witnessed iirc.

I am a bit iffy with Fear Manipulation, too. It is not that Moro's Ki induces people with fear (which is what Fear Manipulation is all about), but that its nature —a lot of people screaming in pain— scared Goku. Also, even if it were accepted, it should be noted that only those who try to perceive his Ki will feel it.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Just wanted to point out that Ki doesn't have offensive Soul Manipulation anymore. Only Soul Manipulation it has rn is self-Soul Manipulation. Only specific applications of Ki (like Spirit Control, something that hasn't been brought up in anime continuity yet and that one needs training to attain) have it. That being said:

well the core of the argument spirit control is one thing but it is already accepted that the Z statements apply to super unless we have contradictions like Gotenk's still has super ghost kamikaze. so ki manip still does have offensive application's of soul based attacks in the anime.

This is already taken in consideration for his Mid-High regen. Tbh, I don't see anything that might imply Low-Godly, even as a possibly.

i mean if by the characters words they must take advantage of Zamasu's soul, body imbalance considering he can already come back back from complete obliteration and the beforementioned attacks i think it worthy of consideration.

on top of the fact we see him become literal thought within the next scene.

Not proof of Soul Damage. This is what is currently accepted to be Self-Soul Manipulation on the Ki page.

the point of this part was to highlight/rehashed the spiritual aspects that comprise ki. not that this paragraph alone is soul damage.

Not proof of Soul Damage. This is, maybe, Empowerment.

Idk why this is used as proof of Soul Damage tbh. The balance of Zamasu's Soul and Body has nothing to do with Trunks' Sword of Hope.

Going by previous context + statements, spirit here refers to their will, not their literal soul.

Gawasu states "Zamasu soul and body is becoming unstable our chances may lie there" and we literally see actual brute force being useless. Any interpretation where we just dismiss that in disingenuous.

Genki is accepted to be comprised of ones (courage, vitality and spirit) when we see Trunks absorb the magical energy ball than subsequently have the ability to stop Zamasu from regenerating. It’s more likely that they are talking in a more non figurative sense.

Stack this on top of previous statements and infinite Zamasu’s whole existence it further credence to my point.

And, well, even if Trunks received part of their Genki energy, that is not enough for Soul Manipulation anyway, given there is no proof of Trunks actively targeting one's soul. At least, no proof presented. Though the part of Zamasu's body and soul balance becoming unstable might have something. If there is some context of Zamasu causing even more unstability it might work.

Continuing.


Uh... I'm sorry, but doesn't this completely deny your previous argument, though? Zamasu here is surprised by the  energy that the sword contains, and by its  power, the amount of different energies (that being, the hope and will of humans as the context implies) that is flowing inside him, not a durability negation attack that is targetting his soul instead of his body (rather, context suggests his body, his insides are targeted).

I’d beg to differ after Trunks cut down Zamasu it was stated and shown that Zamasu became pure will showing Trunks was attacking/separating Zamasu on some non physical level.

Which funny enough if the same terminology that was used for Trunks attacks “pure will”

Zamasu could regenerate from previous attacks because the damage done was superficial, not boring into him like in this occasion where the sword stabbed through him.

By definition High-Mid regeneration doesn’t care about that if he stop regenerating and wasn’t completely atomized Majin Buu style then his regeneration was halted.

Uh... scan doesn't say nothing even close to what you claim here, btw.

Well the big AP guy asked if he’s in pain and if he was immortal. Then the immortal dude states he can’t be defeated. They are most definitely referring to conventional damage.

Being powered by a part of Ki isn't even close to targetting the enemy's soul with your attacks, though. Dragon Ball's Ki is comprised of 3 components, one of them being Genki, or "Spirit". Genkidama, and Trunks' sword, which is a similar concept, take that component of ki from those who want to share it to amp their power, but that doesn't mean their attacks have an inherent soul damaging property.

Would never claim that. What I did claim with a lot of other scans. That Trunks is attacking that non physical aspect of Zamasu. Yes the Genki-dama and SoH are similar in concept but off execution they aren’t presented similarly what’s so ever.

I'd also like to mention that Trunks could  affect Zamasu with his attacks. His durability is, by no means, superior to the slashes per the very scans this thread has brought up. So, that part is wrong.

Well firstly Dura Neg would come inherently with attacks to the soul.

Secondly we also see Zamasu no sell a big bang Kamehameha which we know is objectively stronger than random no name attacks from trunks.

The spiritual interaction comes from a mechanic of Genkidama —absorbing Genki energy—, not the sword interacting with the target's soul, which is what you're trying to give to Trunks here.

Wait so you agree with soul interaction or not?

Regardless we know he absorbed the power of the Genkidama into his sword meaning whatever properties your attribute to it you’d have to attribute the sword as well.

I honestly cannot see where this comes from. You haven't shown Zamasu's durability being superior to Trunks' amped sword. You have, in fact, shown the opposite: Trunks' Sword of Hope damaging Zamasu and the latter needing to regenerate from the damage received.

Well the chain scaling says it all for me. Considering a bloodlusted ssj blue Vegito couldn’t get the job done where he could it’s blatantly obvious.

Unless we’re ready to make the claim that the SoH amped Trunks to the level of a blue level fusion. Which is a pretty big claim inherently. It’s safer to say the swords properties helped out.

Zamasu's continued existence isn't granted by his regeneration, but because he fused with the fabric of the universe. So the regeneration negation arguments aren't invalid in any way because of that.

Not what I’m saying entirely after trunks slashed his body he was inapplicable of further regeneration and then discarded his mortal body to become the universe. The events that lead up to this is what needs to be discussed the soul body link being broken and the inability to further regenerate.

Nowhere in this scan it is said that 73 absorbs memories. I'd recommend to put more context of the scene.

Never said that Moro can read minds at the very least I already said maybe the wording can be changed if memory absorption isn’t accurate enough.

Plus the context is Moro reading Supreme Kai’s mind when he’s having an internal monologue about where his god ki went.

This scan doesn't imply that 73 absorbs people's Data. Just that his data includes the events of Moro using the Dragon Balls, an event he personally witnessed iirc.

Again this is for Moro if he can absorb 73 powers and memory’s the data is a given it’s literally all his mental capabilities are made of to our knowledge.

I am a bit iffy with Fear Manipulation, too. It is not that Moro's Ki induces people with fear (which is what Fear Manipulation is all about), but that its nature —a lot of people screaming in pain— scared Goku. Also, even if it were accepted, it should be noted that only those who try to perceive his Ki will feel it.

Well one the whole pain stuff would probably fall more under madness manipulation

Plus to be fair he’s also having cranberry shit his pants in his presence when weakened and with literally zero reputation.

Plus they did mention his chi felt like a bunch of people in pain.

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

Cant Zamasu be mid godly regen because it also effects his soul?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

well the core of the argument spirit control is one thing but it is already accepted that the Z statements apply to super unless we have contradictions like Gotenk's still has super ghost kamikaze. so ki manip still does have offensive application's of soul based attacks in the anime.

Ghost Kamikaze aren't literal souls, but ectoplasm-shaped ki, not to mention that the damage said ghosts cause is physical, nowhere it is stated said ghosts cause Soul Damage.

i mean if by the characters words they must take advantage of Zamasu's soul, body imbalance considering he can already come back back from complete obliteration and the beforementioned attacks i think it worthy of consideration.

Yeah, that's precisely why regeneration negation is more plausible. Zamasu himself stated that he's feeling many different energies flowing inside him, and then we see him unable to regenerate anymore.

Nowhere it is stated his soul was affected.

on top of the fact we see him become literal thought within the next scene.

Zamasu casted off his form (i.e., physical body) as a God and was trying to become one with the Universe. Again, nowhere it is stated his soul was destroyed. Not to mention that the soul and mind are currently accepted to be connected, so for Zamasu's will to keep existing, his soul shall not be destroyed too.

Gawasu states "Zamasu soul and body is becoming unstable our chances may lie there" and we literally see actual brute force being useless. Any interpretation where we just dismiss that in disingenuous.

I've checked the context just in case, and I've reached the conclusion that this scan is taken out of context. Here's the context surrounding the so-called Soul scan.

Not only does it mention that Zamasu's regeneration is weakening, making him unable to recover his original form and crumbling his body apart due to Black (which is why the balance between his half-mortal body and his immortal soul is brought up, something that happened later too), but Gowasu literally stated that the key to defeat Zamasu, on the very context you're trying to push for Soul Manipulation, is to use an even greater power to hit him than before.

Also, physical attacks do have an effect on Zamasu, regardless if you want to deny it. We see across the fight that Black's half was getting worse and worse per second. And what Trunks did –which, again, is praised as a powerful amount of energy, literally what Gowasu said was necessary to kill Zamasu. No Soul Damage sheningans– is cut his mortal and immortal being apart.

Genki is accepted to be comprised of ones (courage, vitality and spirit) when we see Trunks absorb the magical energy ball than subsequently have the ability to stop Zamasu from regenerating. It’s more likely that they are talking in a more non figurative sense.

Stack this on top of previous statements and infinite Zamasu’s whole existence it further credence to my point.

Now that context is given that they are talking about needing bigger power to kill Zamasu (something that wouldn't work if what was needed was to target Zamasu's soul, or to overcome low-godly regeneration), this points are meaningless.

But if you want an answer, using someone's Genki to attack isn't Soul Damage. For the same reason that the Genkidama, which uses the spirit of everyone it has absorbed, isn't: the Genki is just used to power up, given it is part of the Ki. Not to attack the abstraction that the soul is. Same reason why attacking with the emotion and will of all people on Earth isn't mind nor Willpower Manipulation.

I’d beg to differ after Trunks cut down Zamasu it was stated and shown that Zamasu became pure will showing Trunks was attacking/separating Zamasu on some non physical level.

Which funny enough if the same terminology that was used for Trunks attacks “pure will”

Yeah, he casted apart his physical form and became pure will. Will, an emotion, is part of mind, which is part of Soul. So, for his will to still exist, his soul must too.

By definition High-Mid regeneration doesn’t care about that if he stop regenerating and wasn’t completely atomized Majin Buu style then his regeneration was halted.

That'd, indeed, negate the arguments of his regeneration being Mid-High. Which, imo, seems way more plausible given it is based on just the word "cheat", rather than the whole narrative telling us he cannot regenerate like Zamas at all, and that part of his body isn't regenerating, but crumbling.

Well the big AP guy asked if he’s in pain and if he was immortal. Then the immortal dude states he can’t be defeated. They are most definitely referring to conventional damage.

Again, refer to the previous points where power is what is needed to defeat Zamasu, and everyone claims his regeneration isn't the same as before –and is starting to fail part of his body–.

Here's, again, the continuation of your out of context dialogue. Zamasu isn't truly immortal anymore. And, per this and the context I've given before, we know that his regeneration is far from completely capable of negating any sort of damage. Zamasu is just being arrogant, the half mortal of his body is falling apart by conventional damage, not regenerating, as it is pointed out several times. And  power, not the ability to damage souls, not durability negation, is needed to defeat him.

Would never claim that. What I did claim with a lot of other scans. That Trunks is attacking that non physical aspect of Zamasu. Yes the Genki-dama and SoH are similar in concept but off execution they aren’t presented similarly what’s so ever.

They are similar by execution, too. They absorb the Genki and willpower of beings and use it to attack.

Well firstly Dura Neg would come inherently with attacks to the soul.

Secondly we also see Zamasu no sell a big bang Kamehameha which we know is objectively stronger than random no name attacks from trunks.

We don't see him "no-sell" a Big Bang Kame Hame Ha. We see him receive it, be covered by a cloud of smoke, and then reappear. He has regeneration, and weaker attacks like Vegito's ki sword have shown to pierce through him. So the most obvious assumption is that he regenerated.

Not to mention that Zamasu praised the energy of Trunks' sword, meaning it is not "a random no name attack".

Wait so you agree with soul interaction or not?

I agree that Genkidama and the technique of Trunks, that have the same basis, absorb Genki part of the Ki; which represents the spirit.

I do not agree, however, that absorbing that correlates with Soul Damage. Specially with all the context surrounding power is what is needed to defeat Zamasu, that Zamasu's regeneration is starting to fail, etc.

Regardless we know he absorbed the power of the Genkidama into his sword meaning whatever properties your attribute to it you’d have to attribute the sword as well.

Genki, as part of Ki, has no other ability but just what is already on the Ki Manipulation page. No Soul Damage, nothing like that. So, by absorbing Genki to empower himself Trunks doesn't gain Soul Damage.

Well the chain scaling says it all for me. Considering a bloodlusted ssj blue Vegito couldn’t get the job done where he could it’s blatantly obvious.

The chain scaling you invented and that could perfectly be wrong.

Unless we’re ready to make the claim that the SoH amped Trunks to the level of a blue level fusion. Which is a pretty big claim inherently.

I think that makes way more sense, given that it is a technique compared to the Genkidama —whose whole point is to amp oneself with the energy of others—, that Zamasu praised the energy in the sword, etc. Hell, it is already accepted that Future Trunks' sword of hope is above his conventional attacks

It’s safer to say the swords properties helped out.

This feels way more of a headcanon. Specially considering that power is what is needed to defeat Zamasu, not special properties.

Not what I’m saying entirely after trunks slashed his body he was inapplicable of further regeneration and then discarded his mortal body to become the universe.

You yourself admited his mortal body was what was discarded. So his soul wasn't damaged nor destroyed, negating any possibility for Soul Damage.

The events that lead up to this is what needs to be discussed the soul body link being broken and the inability to further regenerate.

That isn't Soul Damage, though.

And even that feels like headcanon. Zamasu's half body cannot regenerate the other half because the other half is mortal, so, by slicing him apart his body is effectively dead. He also can feel pain and is constantly called not to be immortal anymore, which makes consistent that an attack that doesn't vaporize him can end up killing him.

This, plus all the context of power being needed for his death, your headcanon of severing the connection between body and soul never mentioned anywhere, means it makes way more sense to discard your possibility and, instead, bring out what is obvious.

TL;DR for the Soul Damage part: Trunks sword's big power bored into the insides of Zamasu, given his mortal half is falling apart and that he isn't immortal anymore because he fused with a mortal, that power, a power even bigger than anything before, defeated him, destroying his physical body beyond the level where he can regenerate.

Never said that Moro can read minds at the very least I already said maybe the wording can be changed if memory absorption isn’t accurate enough.

Uh... I haven't said that Moro can read minds?

Anyway, yeah. Mind Reading is more accurate.

Plus the context is Moro reading Supreme Kai’s mind when he’s having an internal monologue about where his god ki went.

Again this is for Moro if he can absorb 73 powers and memory’s the data is a given it’s literally all his mental capabilities are made of to our knowledge.

Do you have any proof of Moro absorbing 73's data, though? 73 is a machine, data is the way to refer the information they have. Do you have any proof Moro has the knowledge 73 has?

Well one the whole pain stuff would probably fall more under madness manipulation

Nah. It is just that Moro absorbs the soul of people, and said souls are screaming in pain inside him. Nothing here implies madness manipulation

Plus they did mention his chi felt like a bunch of people in pain.

Why did you bring up the scan in the OP again, as if it was something different? Anyway, I already responded to this. Moro's Ki felt like a bunch of people in pain, that scared Goku, who has never felt a Ki like that. Not because the Ki has an intrinsic property that causes fear, but because it being a bunch of people screaming in pain terrorized Goku.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Wait, I thought Zamasu's halves were left intact and out of screen. But by rewatching the episode, I noticed Trunks' attack completely destroyed Zamasu's body, to the point nothing at all was left.

So... why are we even arguing for Regeneration Negation at all? It's not that Zamasu couldn't regenerate because his regeneration was negated, but because his whole body got pulverized beyond the level he can regenerate of. This also supports my previous point, btw. That a big power capable of destroying Zamasu's body is what was needed to kill him. Not to mention how this heavily contradicts Low-Godly regen.

I'll edit the TL;DR of my previous post.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wait, I thought Zamasu's halves were left intact and out of screen. But by rewatching the episode, I noticed Trunks' attack completely destroyed Zamasu's body, to the point nothing at all was left.

So... why are we even arguing for Regeneration Negation at all? It's not that Zamasu couldn't regenerate because his regeneration was negated, but because his whole body got pulverized beyond the level he can regenerate of. This also supports my previous point, btw. That a big power capable of destroying Zamasu's body is what was needed to kill him. Not to mention how this heavily contradicts Low-Godly regen.

I'll edit the TL;DR of my previous post.

I agree with you and none of the things in OP really refutes what it was said in the og downgrade thread:

Removing Mid-Godly negation from DBS/SDBH

Alright, so Genkidama users having Mid-Godly negation is pretty dumb. Let's see in detail what is the justification on Future Trunks' page: "Immortality Negation [Type 3] & Regeneration Negation [At least Mid-High, Possibly Mid-Godly] (Which nullifies[14] Fusion Zamasu's regeneration with...

vsbattles.com

I'll give my full opinion on the matter when I'll get time.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Ghost Kamikaze aren't literal souls, but ectoplasm-shaped ki, not to mention that the damage said ghosts cause is physical, nowhere it is stated said ghosts cause Soul Damage.

Yeah, that's precisely why regeneration negation is more plausible. Zamasu himself stated that he's feeling many different energies flowing inside him, and then we see him unable to regenerate anymore.

Nowhere it is stated his soul was affected.

1. I know the exact argument your using but. On vs battle wiki it is accepted as having the ability to interact with the spirit/soul inherited from ki.

Which isn’t even unique to it Trunks is already accepted to be able to interact with the soul and is shown doing so.

• Further Non-Physical Interaction
  • Soul/Spirit (Evil Containment Wave can seals away the soul or spirit<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Future_Trunks_(DBS_Anime)?so=search#cite_note-DB181-27"><span>[</span>27<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Future_Trunks_(DBS_Anime)?so=search#cite_note-DB175-28"><span>[</span>28<span>]</span></a>)
• Sealing (Via Evil Containment Wave, which allows him to seal opponents within a sealing urn<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Future_Trunks_(DBS_Anime)?so=search#cite_note-DBS64-29"><span>[</span>29<span>]</span></a>)
  • Soul Manipulation (Evil Containment Wave seals away the soul of its target<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Future_Trunks_(DBS_Anime)?so=search#cite_note-DB181-27"><span>[</span>27<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Future_Trunks_(DBS_Anime)?so=search#cite_note-DB175-28"><span>[</span>28<span>]</span></a>)

2. He’s just damaging his soul not erasing it Hakai style his will still existing doesn’t hurt my point it just shows a very obvious distinction.

Zamasu casted off his form (i.e., physical body) as a God and was trying to become one with the Universe. Again, nowhere it is stated his soul was destroyed. Not to mention that the soul and mind are currently accepted to be connected, so for Zamasu's will to keep existing, his soul shall not be destroyed too.

I've checked the context just in case, and I've reached the conclusion that this scan is taken out of context. Here's the context surrounding the so-called Soul scan.

Not only does it mention that Zamasu's regeneration is weakening, making him unable to recover his original form and crumbling his body apart due to Black (which is why the balance between his half-mortal body and his immortal soul is brought up, something that happened later too), but Gowasu literally stated that the key to defeat Zamasu, on the very context you're trying to push for Soul Manipulation, is to use an even greater power to hit him than before.

1. Never said his soul was completely destroyed your straw manning my argument. The soul and body are inherently linked in dragon ball examples being characters getting stronger from image training.

Or like how Goku can literally keep his physical body in the check in station.

2. Never took anything out of context we already know his immortality was weaker I literally brought that up in the op. But we also know it’s still considered the best in the series up until this point. Even after his fusion. And if you already agree Zamasu can exist at pure will even after his body was rendered dead then that’s textbook low godly Regen.

3. As I’ve stated before the big AP argument doesn’t quite work out. Vegito was the strongest character in the arc that fought Zamasu barring Zeno. And even he was incapable of pulverizing him completely. And not only does your scan show Shin saying his hypothesis with uncertainty we even see him heal from a similar situation with Vegito.

Also, physical attacks do have an effect on Zamasu, regardless if you want to deny it. We see across the fight that Black's half was getting worse and worse per second. And what Trunks did –which, again, is praised as a powerful amount of energy, literally what Gowasu said was necessary to kill Zamasu. No Soul Damage sheningans– is cut his mortal and immortal being apart.

His GB half was swelling up but if what you mean by “getting worse” is that half was incapable of regenerating than your blatantly wrong. And character much lesser than him have survived far worse your argument hinges on chain scaling Trunks to characters he’s blatantly weaker than.

Now that context is given that they are talking about needing bigger power to kill Zamasu (something that wouldn't work if what was needed was to target Zamasu's soul, or to overcome low-godly regeneration), this points are meaningless.

But if you want an answer, using someone's Genki to attack isn't Soul Damage. For the same reason that the Genkidama, which uses the spirit of everyone it has absorbed, isn't: the Genki is just used to power up, given it is part of the Ki. Not to attack the abstraction that the soul is. Same reason why attacking with the emotion and will of all people on Earth isn't mind nor Willpower Manipulation.

1. Power in the context your using it hinges on AP completely which trunks gets out done in. You’d have to either argue the Genkidama is a beyond fusion level buff to his stats or that Zamasu got significantly weaker than Trunks inexplicably with no explanation.

2. The SoH and Genkidama are similar in concept as I’ve said before but completely different in execution we already know character in DB can touch non physical elements of one’s being with ki. But the SoH does that more directly. Hell even in the Goku black arc all the Z fighters are capable of touching the intangible aspects of Zamasu himself in the end.

3. And on that willpower point your not correct them being able to interact with abstractions did give them willpower manipulation.

Abstractions (Type 1 - Will, Thoughts& Ideas; Ki can interact with abstract beings made of will, thoughts, ideas

Yeah, he casted apart his physical form and became pure will. Will, an emotion, is part of mind, which is part of Soul. So, for his will to still exist, his soul must too.

okay so now your putting words in my mouth I never said his soul was completely destroyed rather that the characters can interact and attack it.

That'd, indeed, negate the arguments of his regeneration being Mid-High. Which, imo, seems way more plausible given it is based on just the word "cheat", rather than the whole narrative telling us he cannot regenerate like Zamas at all, and that part of his body isn't regenerating, but crumbling.

Again, refer to the previous points where power is what is needed to defeat Zamasu, and everyone claims his regeneration isn't the same as before –and is starting to fail part of his body–

I’d suggest you to reread the thread. Every comment about him states he’s still the hardest to kill character in the series by a long shot.

And even within the story we literally see his body regenerates on that side also. The claim he’s not regenerating on one half when we literally see him do it is ridiculous.

.

Here's, again, the continuation of your out of context dialogue. Zamasu isn't truly immortal anymore. And, per this and the context I've given before, we know that his regeneration is far from completely capable of negating any sort of damage. Zamasu is just being arrogant, the half mortal of his body is falling apart by conventional damage, not regenerating, as it is pointed out several times. And  power, not the ability to damage souls, not durability negation, is needed to defeat him.

Well this part i would say is a misunderstanding on your part. Within dragon ball the context to what an “immoral” is varies. For example Majin Buu isn’t considered a “immoral” in the context of DB and further substantiated by the Beerus scene . When Zamasu fused with with Black he became killable by the likes of GoD. Within the series immoral basically means you can’t be killed by anyone short of Zeno. You’re just restating what’s already known and trying to reframe it.

They are similar by execution, too. They absorb the Genki and willpower of beings and use it to attack.

We don't see him "no-sell" a Big Bang Kame Hame Ha. We see him receive it, be covered by a cloud of smoke, and then reappear. He has regeneration, and weaker attacks like Vegito's ki sword have shown to pierce through him. So the most obvious assumption is that he regenerated.

Your flip flopping between weather or not you believe Zamasu is. Immoral or not. Any of Vegitos attacks are stronger than all of trunks especially since base Vegito outscales both ssj blue x 10 Goku and Vegeta in base.

Low Multiverse level (Superior to Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 Goku in base alone

Not to mention that Zamasu praised the energy of Trunks' sword, meaning it is not "a random no name attack".

It objectively is a no name random attack. The spirit bomb was literally composed of a couple dozen random fodder humans and Goku and Vegeta while basically suffering from a concussion. Any “energy” as in ap he would have gotten would have been negligible.

I agree that Genkidama and the technique of Trunks, that have the same basis, absorb Genki part of the Ki; which represents the spirit.

I do not agree, however, that absorbing that correlates with Soul Damage. Specially with all the context surrounding power is what is needed to defeat Zamasu, that Zamasu's regeneration is starting to fail, etc.

Okay I guess good you agree with something. But having the ability to negate the soul body imbalance in Merged Zamasu would require him to be able to touch something beyond what’s physically there.

Genki, as part of Ki, has no other ability but just what is already on the Ki Manipulation page. No Soul Damage, nothing like that. So, by absorbing Genki to empower himself Trunks doesn't gain Soul Damage.

Blatantly untrue

• Ectoplasm Manipulation (Ki is the same as Spirit Energy,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS52-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> and is synonymous with the spirit, soul, and life force<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> of individuals, and even beings in the afterlife<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBM516-130"><span>[</span>124<span>]</span></a> retain their Ki. The intrinsics of this is further shown with reincarnation, as souls keep their spiritual power,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS66-131"><span>[</span>125<span>]</span></a> and pass it down to their new bodies. This energy can be projected<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS55-11"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a>through many ways and is explained as a mysterious spiritual internal energy from within<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-D4-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> a user that can be materialized for their attacks. That makes it equivalent to manipulating the energy of souls, but the energy can materialize as ki-based attacks)

The chain scaling you invented and that could perfectly be wrong.

I think that makes way more sense, given that it is a technique compared to the Genkidama —whose whole point is to amp oneself with the energy of others—, that Zamasu praised the energy in the sword, etc. Hell, it is already accepted that Future Trunks' sword of hope is above his conventional attacks

Lmao “the chain scaling could be wrong”

1. You’d have to prove some how the SoH gave Trunks a 16 million times amp randomly which is impossible. I don’t think anything short of MUI or brolys adaptation is accepted at that massive a jump.

2. Even assuming we take it as ap we already know the DB cast has internals that scale to their external durability.

This feels way more of a headcanon. Specially considering that power is what is needed to defeat Zamasu, not special properties.

Yes but placing trunks at second to Zeno in the arc isn’t.

You yourself admited his mortal body was what was discarded. So his soul wasn't damaged nor destroyed, negating any possibility for Soul Damage.

You know that just because his soul is damaged doesn’t mean he’s incapable of still manipulating it. Or in Zamasu’s case expanding his outward.

That isn't Soul Damage, though.

And even that feels like headcanon. Zamasu's half body cannot regenerate the other half because the other half is mortal, so, by slicing him apart his body is effectively dead. He also can feel pain and is constantly called not to be immortal anymore, which makes consistent that an attack that doesn't vaporize him can end up killing him.

This, plus all the context of power being needed for his death, your headcanon of severing the connection between body and soul never mentioned anywhere, means it makes way more sense to discard your possibility and, instead, bring out what is obvious.

TL;DR for the Soul Damage part: Trunks sword's big power bored into the insides of Zamasu, given his mortal half is falling apart and that he isn't immortal anymore because he fused with a mortal, that power, a power even bigger than anything before, defeated him, destroying his physical body beyond the level where he can regenerate.

1. As I’ve shown Ki enhances your internal and external body here’s another example.

2. Zamasu already was not regenerating when he was first pierced with the attack and we also see that he’s not bleeding either like before.

3. I would like you to at least provide some in lore context and to reason to why Trunks would gain “power” that surpasses both Vegito and Merged Zamasu within the same arc.

Do you have any proof of Moro absorbing 73's data, though? 73 is a machine, data is the way to refer the information they have. Do you have any proof Moro has the knowledge 73 has?

Literally the entire exchange where he easts him and gains access to all his abilities.

Nah. It is just that Moro absorbs the soul of people, and said souls are screaming in pain inside him. Nothing here implies madness manipulation

Reread my comment I never argued madness hax.

Why did you bring up the scan in the OP again, as if it was something different? Anyway, I already responded to this. Moro's Ki felt like a bunch of people in pain, that scared Goku, who has never felt a Ki like that. Not because the Ki has an intrinsic property that causes fear, but because it being a bunch of people screaming in pain terrorized Goku.

Well besides the fact that this doesn’t really argue against the point. Weather or not Moro is made of 1 soul or a billion doesn’t deflect from the fact he can induce fear off his aura alone.

Fear Inducement: The most simple form of Fear Manipulation. This is simply the ability to make the target feel frightened in some form or another. The severity of this can range from frightening them to causing them to deathly insanity

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

1. I know the exact argument your using but. On vs battle wiki it is accepted as having the ability to interact with the spirit/soul inherited from ki.

That's NPI. Here you are talking about Soul Damage

2. He’s just damaging his soul not erasing it Hakai style his will still existing doesn’t hurt my point it just shows a very obvious distinction.

You still have no proof of Trunks damaging the soul though

2. Never took anything out of context we already know his immortality was weaker I literally brought that up in the op. But we also know it’s still considered the best in the series up until this point. Even after his fusion. And if you already agree Zamasu can exist at pure will even after his body was rendered dead then that’s textbook low godly Regen.

No. Low Godly regen is, quoting:

The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other non-physical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else

Here Zamasu didn't restore his body. What hou are mentioning is what he already has as Immortality type 8

3. As I’ve stated before the big AP argument doesn’t quite work out. Vegito was the strongest character in the arc that fought Zamasu barring Zeno. And even he was incapable of pulverizing him completely.

Source of Vegito being stronger than Trunks' Sword of Hope? Because the show tells us the opposite: Trunks' sword of hope could destroy Zamasu's body entirely, meanwhile Vegito has not shown anything similar.

And not only does your scan show Shin saying his hypothesis with uncertainty we even see him heal from a similar situation with Vegito.

You are comparing a pierce in the chest to this?

1. Power in the context your using it hinges on AP completely which trunks gets out done in. You’d have to either argue the Genkidama is a beyond fusion level buff to his stats or that Zamasu got significantly weaker than Trunks inexplicably with no explanation.

Yeah, because that is basically what we are shown? Trunks' Sword of Hope was capable of doing something Vegito wasn't able to: Completely pulverize Zamasu's body beyond any repairing.

2. The SoH and Genkidama are similar in concept as I’ve said before but completely different in execution we already know character in DB can touch non physical elements of one’s being with ki.

Leaving aside canonicity, that is Buu attacking a Vegeta who got his physical form restored (similar to what Goku had due to his heroism). So this is not even NPI, let alone soul damage.

Not to mention you are deviating from your very OP. You're trying to give Trunks soul damage, and then you are bringing non-related cases of non-related abilities having NPI/Soul Manipulation and saying "Welp, it's all Ki so Trunks has it too" regardless if it is not accepted, or if having the same origin doesn't mean they share the same abilities. For a character to gain Soul Manipulation with Ki they must either receive specific training (Spirit Control) or train a specific ability (Containment Wave).

But the SoH does that more directly. Hell even in the Goku black arc all the Z fighters are capable of touching the intangible aspects of Zamasu himself in the end.

That is already accepted to be NPI. Not Soul Damage. You seem to be confusing concepts.

3. And on that willpower point your not correct them being able to interact with abstractions did give them willpower manipulation.

Abstractions (Type 1 - Will, Thoughts& Ideas; Ki can interact with abstract beings made of will, thoughts, ideas

No, they do not have Willpower Manipulation. They have Non-Physical Interaction in that aspect.

I’d suggest you to reread the thread. Every comment about him states he’s still the hardest to kill character in the series by a long shot.

And even within the story we literally see his body regenerates on that side also. The claim he’s not regenerating on one half when we literally see him do it is ridiculous.

He does regenerate on that half, that point is fair. But his regeneration is completely mitigated, his immortality no more as pointed out by several characters and it cannot regenerate to the same level his immortal part does.

Regenerating from a single slice of a sword isn't the same as regenerating half of your body entirely from scratch. Specially when we've seen the damage caused the mortal half of Zamasu to change into that grotesque form, showing a clear limit to its immortality. But anyway that's not the point so you can drop it

Well this part i would say is a misunderstanding on your part. Within dragon ball the context to what an “immoral” is varies. For example Majin Buu isn’t considered a “immoral” in the context of DB and further substantiated by the Beerus scene . When Zamasu fused with with Black he became killable by the likes of GoD. Within the series immoral basically means you can’t be killed by anyone short of Zeno. You’re just restating what’s already known and trying to reframe it.

Your flip flopping between weather or not you believe Zamasu is. Immoral or not. Any of Vegitos attacks are stronger than all of trunks especially since base Vegito outscales both ssj blue x 10 Goku and Vegeta in base.

Low Multiverse level (Superior to Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 Goku in base alone

It objectively is a no name random attack. The spirit bomb was literally composed of a couple dozen random fodder humans and Goku and Vegeta while basically suffering from a concussion. Any “energy” as in ap he would have gotten would have been negligible.

Proof that Trunks' sword of hope is weaker than Vegito's attacks, when the feats are telling us otherwise? We have:

• Trunks' sword of hope energy being praised by Zamasu
• Trunks' sword of hope slicing Zamasu apart
• Trunks' sword of hope completely pulverizing Zamasu's body beyond regeneration
• Vegito being unable to slice Zamasu attack, all he did was pierce once through his body
• Zamasu could regenerate from all of Vegito attacks, unlike from Trunks'
• The strongest attack, Final Kame Hame Ha, we have no proof of what damage did it cause to Zamasu, but given he could regenerate from that and not from body destruction, it implies its damage was less than Trunks' Sword of Hope.

Is it inconsistent that Trunks gains such a power up? Yeah. Has it happened? Yeah.

Okay I guess good you agree with something. But having the ability to negate the soul body imbalance in Merged Zamasu would require him to be able to touch something beyond what’s physically there.

Problem is, you haven't shown any proof that Trunks is negating any kind of imbalance. No scan you have shown proves, nor remotely implies so. Hell, the very pillar of your proof: U11 Kaioshin explanation, directly says right after you cut it that the way to deal with Zamasu is with something more powerful than all previous, which completely goes against your hypothesis of a soul-body link severing ability.

Blatantly untrue

• Ectoplasm Manipulation (Ki is the same as Spirit Energy,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS52-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> and is synonymous with the spirit, soul, and life force<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> of individuals, and even beings in the afterlife<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBM516-130"><span>[</span>124<span>]</span></a> retain their Ki. The intrinsics of this is further shown with reincarnation, as souls keep their spiritual power,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS66-131"><span>[</span>125<span>]</span></a> and pass it down to their new bodies. This energy can be projected<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS55-11"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a>through many ways and is explained as a mysterious spiritual internal energy from within<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-D4-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> a user that can be materialized for their attacks. That makes it equivalent to manipulating the energy of souls, but the energy can materialize as ki-based attacks)

Dude... that's Ectoplasm Manipulation, not Soul Damage. Soul Damage got taken out, Check it yourself if you don't believe it.

Lmao “the chain scaling could be wrong”

1. You’d have to prove some how the SoH gave Trunks a 16 million times amp randomly which is impossible. I don’t think anything short of MUI or brolys adaptation is accepted at that massive a jump.

Rn Trunks' Sword of Hope scale at 6 Universes, while Trunks' transformations scale at 3. That's literally 3 infinity gaps right there.

2. Even assuming we take it as ap we already know the DB cast has internals that scale to their external durability.

Yeah. Your point? Zamasu got pulverized beyond regeneration as I previously pointed out, having no option but to leave his body and become an abstraction as you yourself admited.

Yes but placing trunks at second to Zeno in the arc isn’t.

Trunks isn't second yo Zeno in the arc. Sword of Hope is, and not because of some absurd reasoning I'm inventing: by feats.

You know that just because his soul is damaged doesn’t mean he’s incapable of still manipulating it. Or in Zamasu’s case expanding his outward.

You have yet to prove his soul is damage, which is the whole point of your argument. Nothing you have sent shows even implicitely that Zamasu's sword got damaged nor affected in any way.

1. As I’ve shown Ki enhances your internal and external body here’s another example.

Meaningless point.

2. Zamasu already was not regenerating when he was first pierced

Grotesque Zamasu regeneration takes time. It isn't instantaneous

with the attack and we also see that he’s not bleeding either like before.

Because the energy is bursting through his insides.

3. I would like you to at least provide some in lore context and to reason to why Trunks would gain “power” that surpasses both Vegito and Merged Zamasu within the same arc.

...watch the show? Feats show that Trunks surpassed Vegito and Merged Zamasu. Sword of Hope's energy killed Merged Zamasu beyond regeneration.

Literally the entire exchange where he easts him and gains access to all his abilities.

Abilities. I'm asking proof of Moro gaining access to all of 73 Data.

Reread my comment I never argued madness hax.

Well one the whole pain stuff would probably fall more under madness manipulation

Well besides the fact that this doesn’t really argue against the point. Weather or not Moro is made of 1 soul or a billion doesn’t deflect from the fact he can induce fear off his aura alone.

The point is: he can't induce fear off his aura alone. The aura terrified Goku, but because it is scary, not because it has a supernatural ability to cause fear.

If you saw a giant Lion in the middle of the forest, or witnessed an event where thousand of people are screaming in pain, you'd be scared and call it terrifying even if it is not a supernatural fear manipulation.

I admit most Fear Manipulation cases on the wiki are just characters getting scared. But in my opinion this doesn't qualify.

I don't have much to add, and this is starting to be a circular argumentation, so I think the better is to wait for Staff's and other people's like @StrymULTRA opinion before flooding this thread with endless pages repeating the same. So, unless you have new information, we can end this discussion here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok I am bacc.

Possible Low Godly Regeneration (for Zamasu)



I’ll make this very simple, Trunks was able to kill Zamasu with the sword of hope as we know already. Which comprises the souls of every human on earth. Ki Manipulation is already accepted to have the ability to interact with the soul giving it both Soul and Ectoplasm manipulation [see thread here].


Ki manipulation is already accepted to interact with spiritual aspects of a being, which allows for arguments involving both soul and ectoplasmic interaction. The Spirit Bomb itself is described as gathering the life energy of all living organisms (humans, animals, nature, etc.), referred to as Genki (元気). During his fight, Trunks unconsciously gathers and weaponizes this same energy into the Sword of Hope.

I do not understand why is this supposed to give to Merged Zamasu Low Godly, like at all.

Yes, we know that Ki is incorporeal, but why is this related with his regen...?

Zamasu is explicitly treated as a “cheat character” by the editorial staff, even after his immortality is altered through fusion. His regenerative capabilities are shown to exceed those of characters such as Majin Buu and Cell. This is supported by his ability to recover from attacks by Super Saiyan Blue Vegito, Trunks’ prior assaults, and even the Final Kamehameha.


This establishes the following rough scaling:

• SSJB Vegito > Corrupted Zamasu > Fusion Zamasu > SSJB Kaioken ×10 ≈ Sword of Hope Trunks > Base/SSJ Trunks

Despite this, Trunks is still able to critically damage Zamasu.

Actually both Vegito and SoJ Trunks are able to fatally kill Zamasu, at least on a physical level. I'll just copypaste myself from the downgrade thread:

Gowasu literally says that Zamasu's immortality is weakened due to his immortal body being merged with a mortal one, and right because of this they have now a chance of winning against him, and is very funny that the imgur scan cut out exactly that part, because Gowasu essentially said that they can defeat Zamasu from just punching him hard enough, and Vegito even points this out as Zamasu now feels pain unlike his fully immortal self who didn't give a damn about being stabbed.

Goku (at the time) says that the only chance of them winning against Zamasu was to fuse as well. We also see that Vegito generally overpowers Zamasu also really easy, and the only reason why they couldn't win was because of SSJB draining the fusion's time limit much faster.

Mechanics of the Sword of Hope


The Spirit Bomb gathers energy from:

• Humans
• Animals
• Nature (atmosphere, environment, etc.)

In Dragon Ball Super, this energy is called Genki, which represents the life energy of living beings and is a fundamental component of Ki.


Ki is consistently described as a form of spiritual energy. It is invisible and formless until shaped and projected by the user. The act of manipulating Ki involves drawing upon one’s internal spiritual energy and externalizing it for various applications. Because of this, interacting with Ki can be argued to involve interaction with the spiritual aspect of a being.


When Trunks forms the Sword of Hope, he gathers this collective life energy and channels it into a concentrated attack.

This is stuff we already know, but I don't get why is this supposed to be relevant.

Supporting Statements


In the preview for Episode 67, it is stated that Trunks:

• DBS Preview

“Uses the power of humanity’s feelings (hope/will) to land a decisive blow on Zamasu.”

• Gawasu

“The balance between Zamasu’s Soul and Body is becoming unstable”

• Narrator

“Trunks uses the spirits of all Future inhabitants”


Additionally, within the episode, Zamasu himself comments on the energy from humanity “boring into him.” And after that he was incapable of regenerating again.


Minor stuff: Zamasu seems to agree physical attacks are ineffective against him. Trunks also agrees that everyone’s power defeated him when Goku comments on how his attack is like a spirit bomb.


Following this, Zamasu:

• Loses his physical form
• Expands and spreads across the sky as a non-corporeal presence

Conclusion


Given the above:

• The Sword of Hope is powered by the collective life energy (Genki) of humanity
• Ki, as a spiritual energy, supports interaction beyond purely physical matter
• The attack is effective against a character with extreme regeneration and abnormal durability

Therefore, it can be argued that the Sword of Hope:

• Exhibits spiritual interaction, which may support soul-based interaction interpretations. I.E Soul Damage
• Demonstrates durability negation due to its effectiveness against Zamasu
• Can be interpreted as overcoming high-level regeneration , though Zamasu’s continued existence complicates full regeneration negation claims

Huh... no. All of this is just wrong.
Quoting myself from the downgrade thread again:

It seems more a case of Genkidama just hitting so hard that it just negged the regen from AP alone, just like it happened with Kid Buu.



And the Daizenshuu even describes the Genkidama doing so mostly because of big AP, not really because of it having regeneration negging powers.

There is literally nothing saying that Trunks' Genkisword and Goku's Super Genkidama are any different in nature besides power level.

Also it's funny how you've quoted Gowasu saying that the balance between body and spirit became unstable, as it's completely out of context and wasn't even against Trunks but Vegito, and as I've linked above, they say that it's due to Zamasu's immortality being weaked due to his immortal self merging with a mortal being.

The Zamasu saying he can't feel physical pain is complete narcisistic nonsense that's even wrong in-universe, he actually feels pain, unlike his unfused, fully immortal self who did not feel pain from a wound that's arguably worse than any other thing that made the Merged version yell in pain (Vegito did a comparable wound while Trunks just sliced his chest)

Now, I get that the core of your argument may be "well Zamasu just can regenerate from his soul given that said soul still survived", but there is NOTHING saying that Trunks tried to kill his soul. Not only that was taken out here as Just said, but we have Goku and Frieza still being fine in the Afterlife despite both of them literally dying from being blasted from ki attacks (Cell's self destruction and Trunks/Goku big ki blasts), there is no precedent for ki attacks destroying the soul of characters they kill, even non-immortal ones (like Kid Buu could even reincarnate in Ub, can't really do that without a soul you know).

And no, Merged Zamasu being still a cheat character compared to Buu and Cell is not grounds for Low Godly, between that and Mid-High there is still the High regen, which Zamasu was not even stated to possess.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Ok I am bacc.

I do not understand why is this supposed to give to Merged Zamasu Low Godly, like at all.

Yes, we know that Ki is incorporeal, but why is this related with his regen...?

Well as I’ve stated before low godly is the ability to survive from complete destruction and coming back from one other aspect weather it be soul, consciousness or something else if he able to exist as pure will past a certain point then that would bring grounds for a possibly rating.

Actually both Vegito and SoJ Trunks are able to fatally kill Zamasu, at least on a physical level. I'll just copypaste myself from the downgrade thread:

Gowasu literally says that Zamasu's immortality is weakened due to his immortal body being merged with a mortal one, and right because of this they have now a chance of winning against him, and is very funny that the imgur scan cut out exactly that part, because Gowasu essentially said that they can defeat Zamasu from just punching him hard enough, and Vegito even points this out as Zamasu now feels pain unlike his fully immortal self who didn't give a damn about being stabbed.

Goku (at the time) says that the only chance of them winning against Zamasu was to fuse as well. We also see that Vegito generally overpowers Zamasu also really easy, and the only reason why they couldn't win was because of SSJB draining the fusion's time limit much faster.

This is stuff we already know, but I don't get why is this supposed to be relevant.

Well one I didn’t “cut” anything rather used the scans that were relevant to the argument. Two the argument was never that he was incapable of being harmed but that brute force alone wasn’t going to be enough.

Gawasu stating they need “more power” exist in isolation it’s said within the same breath as them pointing out how the balance between his body and soul was unstable.

And I brought attention to the Vegito part. Already but to go over it again. During the fight we see Vegito hit Zamasu with killing blow after killing blow unable to destroy him. We obviously know Trunks isn’t as strong as Vegito so larger AP is out of the question.

Huh... no. All of this is just wrong.
Quoting myself from the downgrade thread again:

It seems more a case of Genkidama just hitting so hard that it just negged the regen from AP alone, just like it happened with Kid Buu.



And the Daizenshuu even describes the Genkidama doing so mostly because of big AP, not really because of it having regeneration negging powers.

There is literally nothing saying that Trunks' Genkisword and Goku's Super Genkidama are any different in nature besides power level.

Again hinging heavy on the argument of large AP is nonsensical because the guy with the larger AP didn’t deal with him with their strongest attack. Going back to the OP when Zamasu states that many energies are boring into the previous statement also draw attention to the spirits of the future inhabitants being what helped him overcome Zamasu. As shown and already accepted spirit and soul in DB are synonymous with each other.

Also it's funny how you've quoted Gowasu saying that the balance between body and spirit became unstable, as it's completely out of context and wasn't even against Trunks but Vegito, and as I've linked above, they say that it's due to Zamasu's immortality being weaked due to his immortal self merging with a mortal being.

The Zamasu saying he can't feel physical pain is complete narcisistic nonsense that's even wrong in-universe, he actually feels pain, unlike his unfused, fully immortal self who did not feel pain from a wound that's arguably worse than any other thing that made the Merged version yell in pain (Vegito did a comparable wound while Trunks just sliced his chest)

His statement isn’t out of context Gowasu was speaking in general on in context to any specific fighter he made the statement then Goku made the suggestion of using fusion in the fight.

And on the second point there’s nothing that states Goku’s ability to feel pain and Merged Zamasu’s is the same especially when we still see him recover from the attack. It’s literally your words against his.

Now, I get that the core of your argument may be "well Zamasu just can regenerate from his soul given that said soul still survived", but there is NOTHING saying that Trunks tried to kill his soul. Not only that was taken out here as Just said, but we have Goku and Frieza still being fine in the Afterlife despite both of them literally dying from being blasted from ki attacks (Cell's self destruction and Trunks/Goku big ki blasts), there is no precedent for ki attacks destroying the soul of characters they kill, even non-immortal ones (like Kid Buu could even reincarnate in Ub, can't really do that without a soul you know).

Again this is missing the core of my argument. Never did I say the Genkidama inherently attacks the soul but rather gave trunks the ability to interact with Zamasu’s here.

Second dude ectoplasm manipulation inherently has soul manipulation. Showing Ki still allows you to damage aspects of one’s soul. es that one justification for souls damage was changed but it has nothing to do with my point. Which is the interaction with Zamasu’s non physical aspect. Via the SoH

Third Frieza and Goku’s deaths were completely unrelated and so was cells even within that thread you linked they made it a point to point out that physical death isn’t spiritualism death.

And no, Merged Zamasu being still a cheat character compared to Buu and Cell is not grounds for Low Godly, between that and Mid-High there is still the High regen, which Zamasu was not even stated to possess.

It’s was again to show that even after the merger his immortality was still better than anyone else’s in the series by a long shot. Considering the editors find it hard to believe Zamasu could be beaten the same way as Buu or previous antagonists it’s supplements the premise.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well as I’ve stated before low godly is the ability to survive from complete destruction and coming back from one other aspect weather it be soul, consciousness or something else if he able to exist as pure will past a certain point then that would bring grounds for a possibly rating.

He has literally no feats nor a single statement hinting at this besides guesswork.

Well one I didn’t “cut” anything rather used the scans that were relevant to the argument. Two the argument was never that he was incapable of being harmed but that brute force alone wasn’t going to be enough.

Gawasu stating they need “more power” exist in isolation it’s said within the same breath as them pointing out how the balance between his body and soul was unstable.

And I brought attention to the Vegito part. Already but to go over it again. During the fight we see Vegito hit Zamasu with killing blow after killing blow unable to destroy him. We obviously know Trunks isn’t as strong as Vegito so larger AP is out of the question.

Why are you manipulating context like this...? Both Gowasu and Goku agreed that fusion will be enough to defeat Zamasu.

And nobody said that SoJ > Vegito, I only claimed that both can kill Zamasu given statements, Vegito only couldn't because he ran out of energy before he expected it.

Again this is missing the core of my argument. Never did I say the Genkidama inherently attacks the soul but rather gave trunks the ability to interact with Zamasu’s here.

Second dude ectoplasm manipulation inherently has soul manipulation. Showing Ki still allows you to damage aspects of one’s soul. es that one justification for souls damage was changed but it has nothing to do with my point. Which is the interaction with Zamasu’s non physical aspect. Via the SoH

Third Frieza and Goku’s deaths were completely unrelated and so was cells even within that thread you linked they made it a point to point out that physical death isn’t spiritualism death.

You're claiming that Genkidama can kill on a spiritual level when it's just a normal ki attack like the Kamehameha or Final Flash are, you have to prove that Genkidama can destroy souls. If other ki attacks couldn't despite all of them having ectoplasm manipulation, why is Genkidama magically able to? Kid Buu also could still reincarnate after being killed by that.

Show me in the Ki Manipulation where it's said that Ki can destroy souls besides random NPI.

It’s was again to show that even after the merger his immortality was still better than anyone else’s in the series by a long shot. Considering the editors find it hard to believe Zamasu could be beaten the same way as Buu or previous antagonists it’s supplements the premise.

This could be done by just having a better Mid-High regen, not necessairly Low Godly.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That sounds good

 

[ChoursDropoff]

He has literally no feats nor a single statement hinting at this besides guesswork.

Literally pointing to like three of them

Why are you manipulating context like this...? Both Gowasu and Goku agreed that fusion will be enough to defeat Zamasu.

Yet was it? How am I manipulating context while I’m literally summarizing what happened in the story?

Vegito is the strongest character in the arc and still couldn’t beat Zamasu.

And nobody said that SoJ > Vegito, I only claimed that both can kill Zamasu given statements, Vegito only couldn't because he ran out of energy before he expected it.

Literally never said you did it’s an argument that was made in the thread.

You're claiming that Genkidama can kill on a spiritual level when it's just a normal ki attack like the Kamehameha or Final Flash are, you have to prove that Genkidama can destroy souls. If other ki attacks couldn't despite all of them having ectoplasm manipulation, why is Genkidama magically able to? Kid Buu also could still reincarnate after being killed by that.

I’m claiming it’s compromised of one’s Genki basically one’s spirit/vital energy. Matter a fact with how quickly you responded I’m certain you didn’t read my response. I literally made it a point to say that the Genkidama doesn’t inherently have that but that Trunks sword of hope allowed him to separate the soul and body. And what was left was pure will.

Show me in the Ki Manipulation where it's said that Ki can destroy souls besides random NPI.

Again the ability to shoot ectoplasm is literally an offense application of soul based attacks.

This could be done by just having a better Mid-High regen, not necessairly Low Godly.

This is also why I proposed High-Mid regeneration to your point doesn’t even disagree with the argument.

Anyway if you have nothing to add than staff should be the ones to evaluate the thread and accept that they’re gonna accept. You understand boy?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Literally pointing to like three of them

Two* and none of them say that Zamasu can regenerate with his soul in his Merged state.

Yet was it? How am I manipulating context while I’m literally summarizing what happened in the story?

Vegito is the strongest character in the arc and still couldn’t beat Zamasu.

They literally said he can lol.

I’m claiming it’s compromised of one’s Genki basically one’s spirit/vital energy. Matter a fact with how quickly you responded I’m certain you didn’t read my response. I literally made it a point to say that the Genkidama doesn’t inherently have that but that Trunks sword of hope allowed him to separate the soul and body. And what was left was pure will.

Your scans don't even say that????

Again the ability to shoot ectoplasm is literally an offense application of soul based attacks.

Quote me a single line from the Ectoplasm Manipulation page saying that the ability by default destroys souls.

Anyway if you have nothing to add than staff should be the ones to evaluate the thread and accept that they’re gonna accept. You understand boy?

You do not speak to me like that, for one.

Second you're pretty much ordering me to stop debating... in a website of debates, lol.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Two* and none of them say that Zamasu can regenerate with his soul in his Merged state.

They literally said he can lol.

What they said and what happened are two different things. Goku stated he could beat IZ if he was at full power yet we don’t take his word as gospel.

Your scans don't even say that????

Quote me a single line from the Ectoplasm Manipulation page saying that the ability by default destroys souls.

depending on the user. At higher levels, this can be used to ignore the conventional durability of ghosts, or even act as a form of Soul Manipulation.

Which it’s already coupled with in DB they’re a joint package

• Soul Manipulation (Ki is synonymous<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a>with spirit, life-energy and the soul.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> Ki being spiritual<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS52-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a> is a fact reiterated a multitude of times; consequently, the energy<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-127"><span>[</span>121<span>]</span></a> is invisible<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-128"><span>[</span>122<span>]</span></a> and formless<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-129"><span>[</span>123<span>]</span></a>prior to being converted.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-D4-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> The manipulation of energy is done by using the internal spiritual energy from within<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-D4-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> and being able to materialize it, and project it outwards.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS55-11"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a>Therefore, manipulating this means interacting with your own soul to draw upon ki for various uses)
• Ectoplasm Manipulation (Ki is the same as Spirit Energy,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS52-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> and is synonymous with the spirit, soul, and life force<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> of individuals, and even beings in the afterlife<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBM516-130"><span>[</span>124<span>]</span></a> retain their Ki. The intrinsics of this is further shown with reincarnation, as souls keep their spiritual power,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS66-131"><span>[</span>125<span>]</span></a> and pass it down to their new bodies. This energy can be projected<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS55-11"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a>through many ways and is explained as a mysterious spiritual internal energy from within<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-D4-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> a user that can be materialized for their attacks. That makes it equivalent to manipulating the energy of souls, but the energy can materialize as ki-based attacks)

You do not speak to me like that, for one.

Second you're pretty much ordering me to stop debating... in a website of debates, lol.

No it’s because you’re giving me no new arguments and have now just decided to respond in one sentence rebuttals about semantics.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Uh... idk why you keep going on Ki having offensive Soul Manipulation by default when I literally sent you the page change where that was deleted

The only Soul Manipulation Ki Manipulation has is oneself's soul. If you read the justification, you'll see at the end:

Therefore, manipulating this means interacting with your own soul to draw upon ki for various uses

And Ectoplasm Manipulation isn't Soul Manipulation by default, those are just common applications of Ectoplasm Manipulation one shall show to have

 

[StrymULTRA]

What they said and what happened are two different things. Goku stated he could beat IZ if he was at full power yet we don’t take his word as gospel.

I mean, he couldn't access his full power because he was drained, how can you say he couldn't?

Plus Gowasu also said that Vegito can kill Zamasu lol.

Gowasu literally says that Zamasu's immortality is weakened due to his immortal body being merged with a mortal one, and right because of this they have now a chance of winning against him,

Which it’s already coupled with in DB they’re a joint package

• Soul Manipulation (Ki is synonymous<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a>with spirit, life-energy and the soul.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> Ki being spiritual<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS52-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a> is a fact reiterated a multitude of times; consequently, the energy<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-127"><span>[</span>121<span>]</span></a> is invisible<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-128"><span>[</span>122<span>]</span></a> and formless<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-129"><span>[</span>123<span>]</span></a>prior to being converted.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-D4-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> The manipulation of energy is done by using the internal spiritual energy from within<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-D4-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> and being able to materialize it, and project it outwards.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS55-11"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a>Therefore, manipulating this means interacting with your own soul to draw upon ki for various uses)
• Ectoplasm Manipulation (Ki is the same as Spirit Energy,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS52-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> and is synonymous with the spirit, soul, and life force<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBSM61-126"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a> of individuals, and even beings in the afterlife<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBM516-130"><span>[</span>124<span>]</span></a> retain their Ki. The intrinsics of this is further shown with reincarnation, as souls keep their spiritual power,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS66-131"><span>[</span>125<span>]</span></a> and pass it down to their new bodies. This energy can be projected<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-DBS55-11"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a>through many ways and is explained as a mysterious spiritual internal energy from within<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)?so=search#cite_note-D4-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> a user that can be materialized for their attacks. That makes it equivalent to manipulating the energy of souls, but the energy can materialize as ki-based attacks)

It only sayd that at high levels it negates durability of ghosts (which doesn't happen in DB), and can act as soul hax (but not necessairly)

Also that thing you're saying is hard to read with all of these formatting errors, could you clear that?

Now, I get that the core of your argument may be "well Zamasu just can regenerate from his soul given that said soul still survived", but there is NOTHING saying that Trunks tried to kill his soul. Not only that was taken out here

Also, ignoring what I say is not good you know

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Uh... idk why you keep going on Ki having offensive Soul Manipulation by default when I literally sent you the page change where that was deleted

He already did soul interaction plus ectoplasm manipulation which is an offense application. The point I was making before it was distorted was that Ki Manipulation can interact with the soul not that the general power system has it offensively.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

He already did soul interaction plus ectoplasm manipulation which is an offense application. The point I was making before it was distorted was that Ki Manipulation can interact with the soul not that the general power system has it offensively.

"Soul Interaction" is NPI. You are arguing Soul Damage (Soul Manipulation). Those two are different abilities.

All Ki Manipulation has the former, not the latter.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He already did soul interaction plus ectoplasm manipulation which is an offense application. The point I was making before it was distorted was that Ki Manipulation can interact with the soul not that the general power system has it offensively.

"Soul Interaction" is NPI. You are arguing Soul Damage (Soul Manipulation). Those two are different abilities.

All Ki Manipulation has the former, not the latter.

^^^

Plus, again, why did both Zamasu and Kid Buu keep their souls despite being killed by the Genkidama lol?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not sure, this looks kind of lengthy for what appears to be a "Minor Addition." Might need more time to think.

 

[ItsMeat]

Any form of godly regen requires regeneration from complete erasure of the aspect regenerated. Fusion zamasu was never truly erased. Heck, there's no proof he was even atomised

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Bump

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Not sure, this looks kind of lengthy for what appears to be a "Minor Addition." Might need more time to think.

Can you clarify what your opinions are?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I want to know the outcome of that too

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

agree

 

[AwkguyDB]

agree as well

 

[Reiner04]

I have 3 crts on me as of now. But i will try to look at it.

 

[SomebodyData]

Trunks’ Sword of Hope

Proposed Abilities:
Soul Damage, Durability Negation , and Regeneration Negation (High-Mid, possibly higher)

Possible Low Godly Regeneration (for Zamasu)

The way it is framed makes me think this is less soul damage and more so just a different application of Soul Manipulation.

I would instead frame this ability like so:

Soul Manipulation and unconventional Regeneration Negation via Sword of Hope (Capable of utilizing the souls of humanity in his future timeline to destablize the body and soul of Fused Zamasu)

I'm not counting it as durability negation as I think it still needed the AP to damage him and there's no proof Zamas had his soul destroyed and regenerated.

Moro

Data & Memory Absorption

Can absorb both the memories of fighters and can absorb their Data in Seven Three’s case.

Fear Hax

Goku after feeling Moro’s ki calls it terrifying and even notes that it wasn’t strong at all. Which Vegeta backs up. This means that Goku was not intimidated by the amount of ki but rather by its nature.

I would also like to make it a point to show the story has very obvious distinctions between being intimidated because of your opponent Chi supply and just having blatantly unsettling Chi.

Agreed with the Data and Memory Absorption.

I agree with JustANormalPerson01, this isn't really fear manipulation.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

The way it is framed makes me think this is less soul damage and more so just a different application of Soul Manipulation.

I would instead frame this ability like so:

Soul Manipulation and unconventional Regeneration Negation via Sword of Hope (Capable of utilizing the souls of humanity in his future timeline to destablize the body and soul of Fused Zamasu)

I'm not counting it as durability negation as I think it still needed the AP to damage him and there's no proof Zamas had his soul destroyed and regenerated.

I’m willing to agree with this. I think this is a good interpretation

Agreed with the Data and Memory Absorption.

I agree with JustANormalPerson01, this isn't really fear manipulation.

Well to be fair fear manipulation as defined on the vs battle wiki is the ability to induce fear or insanity via their aura.

• Fear Inducement: The most simple form of Fear Manipulation. This is simply the ability to make the target feel frightened in some form or another. The severity of this can range from frightening them to causing them to deathly insanity.

If he’s doing this via his chi I don’t quite see why it wouldn’t count

But thank you for your response.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Not sure about the Regeneration Negation, but Soul Manipulation makes sense to me.

Idk why Memory Reading is being called Memory Absorption, and I can't infer enough context from the data scan.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

bro returned

 

[Entity]

unconditional

unconventional

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Not sure about the Regeneration Negation, but Soul Manipulation makes sense to me.

Idk why Memory Reading is being called Memory Absorption, and I can't infer enough context from the data scan.

Thanks for the reply I can reword the memory stuff as mind reading what’s your opinion on the fear hax?