Some Problems I Have With Low Multi Feats That Most scales to In Dragon Ball Anime (Downgrade?)

[Bimgus8010]

Pls have mercy on me db fans

So I just don't think son soloku + Bimgus and 99% of the verse should chainscale to this

Let me explain, let's start with simple things that can be debunked

1. beerus effortlessly nullified the energy

no, he needed to use 100% of his powers, he literally says this after goku asked him "you could do that?"


2. im suggesting that they do not scale to the shockwaves in bog due to them growing in power and being stated to kill them, this is further supported by whis saying he cant stop the power that can end the world and not denying mr satan saying that whis will die too

3. debunking the debunk

i have no clue where they got "the first 2 tries, goku managed to nullify xx% amount out of the 100% of the shockwaves energies"

there were 3 clashes that generated shockwaves, the first 1, goku had no prep or idea of the universal shockwaves, yet it was still universe threatening and there werent an attempt to nullify

there was no need even for xx amount of nullification since elder kai states after the first clash, that the universe could handle 2 or 3 more clashes without need for nullification. So what did goku nullified? the shockwaves at their weakest point which was the fist bump, it shouldnt scale to the further it gets

there wasnt "cushioning effect" either, idk where people get that from, it was either he didnt nullify it or nullify it completely. There was no "goku nullified 50 percent of the shockwaves" ahh statement

4. The narration states they were gonna destroy the universe with their punches

the narration also states that goku surpassed gods, which would include beerus but that didnt happen did it?

5. The Dense Energy Ball could have destroyed the universe and could cover the entire screen

here is the thing, we know that the energy that was nullified is near them with "here" as seen in my first point, suggesting that the energies never managed to get to the ranges of the space time continuum (the energies never dispersed and maybe work in the same way as the shockwaves)

the light covering the screen seems to mean nothing as it covered the screen with the 2nd dense energy ball but did no destruction but instead formed a ball, the ball was then destroyed by goku, the energies releasing but did no destruction with universal range

so the problem that i have are

-hyperbolic and contradictory narration

-multiple statements that characters could not survive the shockwaves including whis

il suggest a downgrade, anything below low 2C as 99% of the verse never affected the entire space time continuum without like 5 contradictions

beerus and champa destroying universes statement in their fight would prolly be cause by the shockwaves that they both can generate which they dont scale to sadly

 

[Qawsedf234]

il suggest a downgrade, anything below low 2C as 99% of the verse never affected the entire space time continuum without like 5 contradictions

I mean, if you're saying all Tier 2 scaling is bunk, you do have to provide or at least indicate what's the next valid thing.

So I just don't think son soloku + Bimgus and 99% of the verse should chainscale to this

I mean, if you read Goku's page you'll see that the scaling starts with Buuhan and not Beerus

Low Multiverse level (Grew far stronger since he fought Kid Buu, who exerted power greater than all previous versions of Majin Buu, including Super Buu [Gohan absorbed].[89] Super Buu's Vice Shout threatened to completely break down the fabric of space-time which would lead to alternate dimensions leaking over into each other and eventually crushing the universe entirely, it being stated multiple times that this was done with his power.

Like even if the Beerus thing is bunk, they'd still be 2-C for Buuhan.

I mean, the only thing I vaguely see as being valid is the argument that the feat did not affect space-time but just the physical universe, but it still needed to be 4D to cross into two other space-times.

 

[TiltedFN]

First off, no. Beerus specifically was not using 100 percent of his power against Goku. It was a lie. The shockwaves were not growing in power. That was only a deduction based on what Elder Kai was witnessing. We know Goku knew the power of their clash would of caused serious damage, so he tried to nullify them from the first clash. And we know he was trying to do it from the first since he tried to perfect it on the second. There was no shockwave on the third clash since he was able to completely nullify the energy. Which btw was the shockwave that was said to for sure destroy the universe on that attempt.

There isn't really any debunk either for the narration literally confirming Goku and Beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe. Goku surpassed the Super Saiyan God state, so therefore he's surpassing the level of a God. There is nothing wrong with that statement dude. The Super Dense Energy Ball absolutely would have destroyed the universe. That is made blatantly clear on how it's energy spread to all of existence. It just didn't actually detonate since Beerus stopped it. Again, no debunk.

 

[Vietthai96]

I agree with Titled here

Also ngl the CRT is kind of low efforts, oorc a lot of this was already addressed in many CRTs in the past, especially the argument about statement is hyperbolic

 

[Shar122]

Ehh, all I see is that the core of this argument which is just "hyperbolic and flowery" which doesn't really entail much, as for the statements that they can't survive such. It's because Goku can't breathe in space, and Beerus will also die because Shin would die as well.

 

[TiltedFN]

Doubt Beerus would of died. We know he's much stronger, and Goku surpassed that attack in base. So either way it isn't really relevant at all.

 

[Mbpoops]

Disagree for tilted’s reasons. Beerus was obviously lying at the end of the arc whis even says he only used 70% of his power and like qaw said.. buuhan scaling

 

[Robo432343]

disagree for @LegendariumOfLies reasons

 

[Bimgus8010]

I mean, if you read Goku's page you'll see that the scaling starts with Buuhan and not Beerus
mean, the only thing I vaguely see as being valid is the argument that the feat did not affect space-time but just the physical universe, but it still needed to be 4D to cross into two other space-times.
[/QUOTE]


The shockwaves grew stronger than them and stated to kill them

It's inaplicable to scale them to it, I guess you could give them range


Buuhan is for another thread I guess

 

[AguilaR202]

I don’t think any of this debunks 2-C.

IMHO the only reason Kai expected Goku and Bills to die was because their current physical power would be below their max ki technique output, as soon as Beerus aura flexed with increased power he nullified it, and Goku would logically have to raise in power to match that Beerus, and eventually does manage to match the much stronger output of his Post SSG absorbtion Super Saiyan 1 KHH with Physicals whilst in base.

As for the shockwaves getting stronger the farther away they were was because even from clash 1 Goku was attempting matching the angle and potency of Beerus’ own strikes to dampen their impact, which explains why the shockwaves appear to get stronger the farther away they were.
once he got the technique right he could completely nullify the collateral damage.

 

[Bimgus8010]

I mean, if you're saying all Tier 2 scaling is bunk, you do have to provide or at least indicate what's the next valid thing.

I mean, if you read Goku's page you'll see that the scaling starts with Buuhan and not Beerus

Like even if the Beerus thing is bunk, they'd still be 2-C for Buuhan.

I mean, the only thing I vaguely see as being valid is the argument that the feat did not affect space-time but just the physical universe, but it still needed to be 4D to cross into two other space-times.

You could give them low multi range, not them scaling to the shockwaves tho


Buuhan is for another thread

 

[AguilaR202]

Dragon Ball Super: Battle of Gods

vsbattles.fandom.com

This blog addresses all of the points brought up by the thread.

 

[Reiner04]

Disgree for Tilted's reason.

 

[Bimgus8010]

First off, no. Beerus specifically was not using 100 percent of his power against Goku. It was a lie. The shockwaves were not growing in power. That was only a deduction based on what Elder Kai was witnessing. We know Goku knew the power of their clash would of caused serious damage, so he tried to nullify them from the first clash. And we know he was trying to do it from the first since he tried to perfect it on the second. There was no shockwave on the third clash since he was able to completely nullify the energy. Which btw was the shockwave that was said to for sure destroy the universe on that attempt.

There isn't really any debunk either for the narration literally confirming Goku and Beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe. Goku surpassed the Super Saiyan God state, so therefore he's surpassing the level of a God. There is nothing wrong with that statement dude. The Super Dense Energy Ball absolutely would have destroyed the universe. That is made blatantly clear on how it's energy spread to all of existence. It just didn't actually detonate since Beerus stopped it. Again, no debunk.

The lying thig was talking about this when Beerus said he was using 100% of his power to fight Goku, not the nullification

Goku never knew of the shockwaves in the first clash

Where was that stated?

There were 3 clashed that generated shockwaves


The nullification of the shockwaves happened on the 4th clash, not the 3rd. The 3rd clash still generated shockwaves lol

 

[KLOL506]

Don't we have discussion rules against trying to negate Goku scaling to Beerus, or am I mistaken?

Either way I disagree for Tilted's reasons.

 

[Random-Helper323]

This whole thread essentially hinges on rejecting the repeated statements that they were risking destroying the universe by claiming the statement was unreliable due to another statement about something else being hyperbolic.

We can't throw all statements in the trash just because one statement could be seen as hyperbolic. Never mind that the statements are made repeatedly and are coupled with the shockwaves shaking multiple space-time continuums.

TL;DR: I disagree with this thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Don't we have discussion rules against trying to negate Goku scaling to Beerus, or am I mistaken?

No

Dragon Ball Rules​

• Do not attempt to upgrade characters in the Buu saga above 4-B based on them massively upscaling from Super Perfect Cell, as 4-B is an extremely broad tier with an upper border nearly a trillion times greater than its baseline, making an upgrade to a higher tier through mere powerscaling infeasible.
• Do not attempt to dispute Goku scaling above his Super Saiyan God form with the argument that he didn't maintain its power; the evidence makes clear that he did, and downgrade attempts have been repeatedly rejected.
• There has been enough discussion about the 5-C ratings of early Dragon Ball characters stemming from Master Roshi's feat in his earlier keys for it to be considered a settled topic in our forum and too controversial to revise, therefore threads regarding changing the ratings of these characters who get their scaling from this feat are not allowed.

 

[Mbpoops]

The lying thig was talking about this when Beerus said he was using 100% of his power to fight Goku, not the nullification

Didnt the nullification come with them clashing? Unless you wanna say goku scales to 100% beerus because beerus would have completely destroyed goku’s arm or maybe more if he used 100% here

Goku never knew of the shockwaves in the first clash

Did he tell you that?

Where was that stated?

Why does that need to be stated??

There were 3 clashed that generated shockwaves


The nullification of the shockwaves happened on the 4th clash, not the 3rd. The 3rd clash still generated shockwaves lol

What does this prove

 

[Bimgus8010]

Dragon Ball Super: Battle of Gods

vsbattles.fandom.com

This blog addresses all of the points brought up by the thread.

I linked this blog in my thread btw, at least read it if you want to disagree

Because it has the basic lies like how Beerus didn't effortlessly nullified the energy

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I linked this blog in my thread btw, at least read it if you want to disagree

Because it has the basic lies like how Beerus didn't effortlessly nullified the energy

Broskie still tryna run with the 100% Beerus argument oh nah. Red buzzer from me. Disagreeing via everyone’s reasoning.

 

[TiltedFN]

The lying thig was talking about this when Beerus said he was using 100% of his power to fight Goku, not the nullification

It wasn't just about that. He also didn't use 100 percent when he nullified the energy ball. Base Goku punched away a STRONGER one. Are you going to claim Base Goku>100 percent Beerus?

Goku never knew of the shockwaves in the first clash

All Goku needs to know is that him and Beerus clashing like that will cause Major damage. Why do you think he tried to attempt to nullify it from the FIRST one.

Where was that stated?

There were 3 clashed that generated shockwaves


The nullification of the shockwaves happened on the 4th clash, not the 3rd. The 3rd clash still generated shockwaves lol

The final clash was completely nullified. Goku tried on the first and second to COMPLETELY null it, but failed to get it to perfection.

 

[AguilaR202]

I linked this blog in my thread btw, at least read it if you want to disagree

Because it has the basic lies like how Beerus didn't effortlessly nullified the energy

 

[Bimgus8010]

Didnt the nullification come with them clashing? Unless you wanna say goku scales to 100% beerus because beerus would have completely destroyed goku’s arm or maybe more if he used 100% here

Did he tell you that?

Why does that need to be stated??

What does this prove

The nullification did not happened in between clashes, never stated

Goku never knew of the shockwaves in the first clash, how would he even know that would happen

It needs to be stated cuz proof?


I only said about 4th nullification because tilted was completely wrong on the third clash nullifying it completely (never happened) and that there were no cushioning affect

 

[Mbpoops]

The nullification did not happened in between clashes, never stated

This is not what i said

Goku never knew of the shockwaves in the first clash, how would he even know that would happen

It needs to be stated cuz proof?

Goku cant sense his own ki? The destruction of life from other planets? The influx of ki stretching throughout the universe? He just suddenly cant sense that now?

I only said about 4th nullification because tilted was completely wrong on the third clash nullifying it completely (never happened) and that there were no cushioning affect

Ok he got the number mixed up but beerus still didn't use 100%

 

[Bimgus8010]

It wasn't just about that. He also didn't use 100 percent when he nullified the energy ball. Base Goku punched away a STRONGER one. Are you going to claim Base Goku>100 percent Beerus?

All Goku needs to know is that him and Beerus clashing like that will cause Major damage. Why do you think he tried to attempt to nullify it from the FIRST one.

The final clash was completely nullified. Goku tried on the first and second to COMPLETELY null it, but failed to get it to perfection.

Goku never even nullified the energy ball if your talking about the 2nd one since it literally exploded on him after punching it

Again, pls link a source where it says Goku was trying to nullify from the first clash

Pls again, link a source for the nullification on the 1st attempt

 

[Bimgus8010]

This is not what i said

Goku cant sense his own ki? The destruction of life from other planets? The influx of ki stretching throughout the universe? He just suddenly cant sense that now?

Ok he got the number mixed up but beerus still didn't use 100%

The destruction happened when the shockwaves happened, it's too late for nullification at that point lol

 

[TiltedFN]

I don't even know what you're trying to say. Those shockwaves exist since Goku is trying to nullify the damage that will inevitably be caused when they clash with that kind of power. If Goku didn't bother doing that, everything likely would of been destroyed in a single punch. And I think you're confused. They only clashed three times initially.

 

[Bimgus8010]

This whole thread essentially hinges on rejecting the repeated statements that they were risking destroying the universe by claiming the statement was unreliable due to a statement that apparently exists about Goku surpassing gods being hyperbolic.

The problem here is surpassing gods doesn't have to refer to Beerus, could refer to a baseline god, and the statement about surpassing gods is a subjective one that can include gods from other worlds, technically includes the Kais, and can refer to gods from the past as well. We already know it's possible to be stronger than other gods but still weaker than Beerus. Meanwhile the statements about destroying the universe are a direct mechanical statement outlining a direct cause and effect with minimal room for interpretation. Never mind that the statements are made repeatedly and are coupled with the shockwaves shaking multiple space-time continuums.

We also can't throw all statements in the trash just because one statement could be seen as hyperbolic.

TL;DR: I disagree with this thread.

So what about the other statements that you ignored?

 

[TiltedFN]

Goku never even nullified the energy ball if your talking about the 2nd one since it literally exploded on him after punching it

Again, pls link a source where it says Goku was trying to nullify from the first clash

Pls again, link a source for the nullification on the 1st attempt

Dude, Goku said he tried to perfect his technique by the second try. Perfecting in this case means completely nullifying and cancelling out Beerus's attack so there will be NO destruction. Your entire premise hinges on the fact that Goku didn't know wtf was going on. We are literally told he does.

 

[Random-Helper323]

So what about the other statements that you ignored?

Those statements specifically talk about destroying the universe. What are you trying to say here? The parts about not being able to stop them, when we learn later that Whis is fully capable of stopping it? Or the part about them dying if the universe is erased with them in it? They still clearly have to scale to it; it's literally the force of their punches.

 

[TiltedFN]

So what about the other statements that you ignored?

These were already addressed dude. It only appeared that way to Elder Kai since he didn't know what Goku was trying to do until he perfected it. And Whis isn't below Goku lmao. Goku literally survived multiple attacks from Beerus which had the power to destroy the universe. Can Beerus one shot Whis?

 

[AguilaR202]

There were only three actual clashes, all of them were dampened then eventually nullified by Gokus punches, the fourth hypothetical clash you say happened doesn’t exist except outside of Elders Kai mental prediction if Goku had not gotten the nullification right

All three punch clashes had Goku attempting to dampen their effect.

Beerus needing to use 100% to nullify the energy to destroy the universe is a literally lie from him, he never used that much power in their encounter.

The super condensed energy ball which would destroy the universe is 50% SSG Gokus power, which is obscenely below Beerus’ max power, Goku later surpasses his own SSG level of power over 50 fold in the same fight

 

[Bimgus8010]

I don't even know what you're trying to say. Those shockwaves exist since Goku is trying to nullify the damage that will inevitably be caused when they clash with that kind of power. If Goku didn't bother doing that, everything likely would of been destroyed in a single punch. And I think you're confused. They only clashed three times initially.

I count 4

 

[TiltedFN]

I count 4

My guy, that second picture with the different art style isn't them clashing in real time. It's a retread of the clash they JUST had while showing more effects of their power. Kibito Kai legit said they were going into the third clash.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I count 4

The second picture doesn't show a clash, and the fourth seems to show one of the clashes from further away. It's directly stated that it's their third clash. Pretty straightforward.

 

[Bimgus8010]

My guy, that second picture with the different art style isn't them clashing in real time. It's a retread of the clash they JUST had while showing more effects of their power. Kibito Kai legit said they were going into the third clash.

Pls stop ignoring the 4th one

 

[Bimgus8010]

The second picture doesn't show a clash, and the fourth seems to show one of the clashes from further away. It's directly stated that it's three.

Pls stop ignoring the 4th one

 

[TiltedFN]

I mean if you are just gonna ignore what the literal show told you, then idk what else to say to you bro. I don't have much else to add here and this already has three staff disagreements.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I mean if you are just gonna ignore what the literal show told you, then idk what else to say to you bro. I don't have much else to add here and this already has three staff disagreements.

Four, actually.

Qawsedf, Vietthai, myself and Reiner.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Isn’t 4 enough to close this thread down? It smells REALLY BAD here.