Revision 1-C Zen'O

[Vietthai96]

The fact that the ring was destroyed means that the timeline no longer exists, since the ring is used to travel to this parallel world and is directly linked to it. Its destruction should imply that the timeline no longer exists at all, yet Goku has access to it with the time machine, and the statements of Whis and Bulma prove that the entire timeline is not destroyed because their statement, "their world before its destruction," clearly demonstrates the timeline that should have been destroyed with the ring.

1. Time Machine isn't literal time travel, it is dimensional travel

2. Can reaccess an erased void is really common in fiction, this shouldn't be an argument, unless you want to nuke almost every void on this wiki

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

Scan literally talking about parallel timeline, you are nitpicking words


Anyway, agree with Profectus point and disagree with the thread

They're not talking about "another parallel timeline" but their own, the one supposedly erased since they clearly state "before its destruction by King Zen'O," which doesn't imply another parallel timeline in this case.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Like everyone said whis just went to a different timeline overall also not to mention the fact as manga states whis can only rewind time upto 3 minutes so saying that he rewinded time to the event of supreme kai getting killed to save beerus is something that goes against the established rule regarding whis time based abilities

So it is way safer to assume they just went to a parallel timeline not to mention the official chart for the trunks arc chronology supports this

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

1. Time Machine isn't literal time travel, it is dimensional travel

2. Can reaccess an erased void is really common in fiction, this shouldn't be an argument, unless you want to nuke almost every void on this wiki

Even admitting this fact, it doesn't change the core issue because Whis clearly states that their timeline was destroyed by Zen'O, and Bulma confirms this. At no point does he say he'll take them to a different timeline, because the only timeline destroyed by Zen'O is Future Trunks' timeline, and no other.

 

[RoninSlayer200]

However, the manga and anime clearly state that this was their world before it was destroyed by Zen'O, so the external information used as supporting evidence contradicts this.

It's only stated in anime (since your scans were only showing anime, not manga, unless I am blind). They were talking about an alternate timeline that wasn't destroyed by Zamasu. You can hop on a timeline by just switching to an alternate timeline, not necessarily going to the same destroyed one, so I disagree with this and think you are nitpicking the words. The fact that another trunk & Mai existing in that future timeline already shows that it's a parallel timeline otherwise why would they even exist when Future Trunks and Mai is already alive?

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

Like everyone said whis just went to a different timeline overall also not to mention the fact as manga states whis can only rewind time upto 3 minutes so saying that he rewinded time to the event of supreme kai getting killed to save beerus is something that goes against the established rule regarding whis time based abilities

So it is way safer to assume they just went to a parallel timeline not to mention the official chart for the trunks arc chronology supports this

You're talking about rewinding time, but Whis never said he would rewind it; he said he would take them to a time before the destruction, so it's time travel, which is fundamentally different.

 

[Excellence616]

Op said 3-A, High 3-A maximum. Op didn't even say 2-C Zeno via upscaling massively from everyone in the verse.

I disagree fra

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

It's only stated in anime (since your scans were only showing anime, not manga, unless I am blind). They were talking about an alternate timeline that wasn't destroyed by Zamasu. You can hop on a timeline by just switching to an alternate timeline, not necessarily going to the same destroyed one, so I disagree with this and think you are nitpicking the words. The fact that another trunk & Mai existing in that future timeline already shows that it's a parallel timeline otherwise why would they even exist when Future Trunks and Mai is already alive?

It is literally marked "their world", their timeline before its "destruction by Zen'O", at what point does Whis tell them about another parallel timeline?

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

Op said 3-A, High 3-A maximum. Op didn't even say 2-C Zeno via upscaling massively from everyone in the verse.

I disagree fra

And then I said that I had overstepped the mark and that 2-C made more sense.

 

[Robo432343]

@Le_démon_Araii its talking about parallel worlds

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Disagree with this entirely. I’d also hope this results in a discussion rule because this is seriously frustrating. Staff shouldn’t and supporters shouldn’t have to partake in something that’s been discussed so often. It becomes tiring.

 

[Killerdrone123]

You're talking about rewinding time, but Whis never said he would rewind it; he said he would take them to a time before the destruction, so it's time travel, which is fundamentally different.

Aight my bad on that but point still stand Which is as explained by the chart given would be a seperate parallel timeline then trunks one the chart was made to explain the timeline shenenigans to the viewers

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

@Le_démon_Araii its talking about parallel worlds

Your screenshots could be used for the Zen'O manga page, which hasn't been created yet, but currently in the anime it's clearly stated that they can return to their own timeline, a timeline destroyed by Zen'O, and that by changing the past—because Whis would ask the Beerus of that era to kill Zamasu—this would create a new future and lead to the creation of a time ring.

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

Aight my bad on that but point still stand Which is as explained by the chart given would be a seperate parallel timeline then trunks one the chart was made to explain the timeline shenenigans to the viewers

Except the anime contradicts that, as I said. It might work for the manga, I think, but not the anime, because otherwise, Whis and Bulma wouldn't be talking about the timeline destroyed by Zen'O, knowing that it's the only one destroyed in that feat.

 

[RoninSlayer200]

It is literally marked "their world", their timeline before its "destruction by Zen'O", at what point does Whis tell them about another parallel timeline?

You are not addressing anything else and just repeating the same word and acting like it debunks everything. Even a parallel timeline would STILL be their world technically because it's literally their future, just a branched one that was not erased by Zeno.

A different Trunks and Mai literally live there; if it's the same, why would they even exist? They weren't erased by Zeno and were not there when Zeno nuked it. Bulma's time machine hops between timelines, not travel inside the same timeline (otherwise Trunks wouldn't even be able to come back to Goku and co. 's past, because the past from his future is where all of them are dead), and guess how they went back to their future? Used the same time machine.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Disagree with this entirely. I’d also hope this results in a discussion rule because this is seriously frustrating. Staff shouldn’t and supporters shouldn’t have to partake in something that’s been discussed so often. It becomes tiring.

I concur with this.

 

[JJSliderman]

Shouldn’t it be low 1-C anyway, cuz neutral space destruction.

 

[Mbpoops]

Shouldn’t it be low 1-C anyway, cuz neutral space destruction.

i was thinking the same thing but the OP posits he didnt destroy any temporal dimension so like at most 4D feat still 2-C because 18 universes and their container

 

[Mbpoops]

currently tho i also disagree for reasons above

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

You are not addressing anything else and just repeating the same word and acting like it debunks everything. Even a parallel timeline would STILL be their world technically because it's literally their future, just a branched one that was not erased by Zeno.

A different Trunks and Mai literally live there; if it's the same, why would they even exist? They weren't erased by Zeno and were not there when Zeno nuked it. Bulma's time machine hops between timelines, not travel inside the same timeline (otherwise Trunks wouldn't even be able to come back to Goku and co. 's past, because the past from his future is where all of them are dead), and guess how they went back to their future? Used the same time machine.

Technically, their world is the timeline that was destroyed, not another one. When Whis tells them that in this era, a Mai and another Trunks are alive, it's because it's their past. But by returning to this era, they will change the past and create a new timeline, just like in DBZ where Trunks went back in time to change the future, separating his own timeline from the one he created by saving Goku from heart disease. So technically, he's returning to his own timeline, which is supposed to have been erased.

 

[Hellscream]

Since when is the time travel machine just a "dimensional travel machine"? quite the convenient argument, to try to disprove the notion that the destroyed timeline still has it's temporal axis intact either way, i agree with the OP.

The fact that the timeline could be traveled to is the biggest anti feat you could get

 

[Robo432343]

Since when is the time travel machine just a "dimensional travel machine"? quite the convenient argument, to try to disprove the notion that the destroyed timeline still has it's temporal axis intact either way, i agree with the OP.

The fact that the timeline could be traveled to is the biggest anti feat you could get

it was discussed in this thread

 

[Killerdrone123]

Except the anime contradicts that, as I said. It might work for the manga, I think, but not the anime, because otherwise, Whis and Bulma wouldn't be talking about the timeline destroyed by Zen'O, knowing that it's the only one destroyed in that feat.

A parallel timeline can also be there "world" since it would be exact replica of the future trunks timeline which would have followed the same events till the buu arc where whis would have prevented death of beerus

You do realise the chart explains the timeline shenenigans for the anime itself to make it clear for the viewers

 

[Killerdrone123]

Since when is the time travel machine just a "dimensional travel machine"? quite the convenient argument, to try to disprove the notion that the destroyed timeline still has it's temporal axis intact either way, i agree with the OP.

The fact that the timeline could be traveled to is the biggest anti feat you could get

Time Travel vs Dimension Travel

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[Mbpoops]

Since when is the time travel machine just a "dimensional travel machine"? quite the convenient argument, to try to disprove the notion that the destroyed timeline still has it's temporal axis intact either way, i agree with the OP.

The fact that the timeline could be traveled to is the biggest anti feat you could get

they're essensially traveling to different "worldlines" (parellel worlds) not actual direct time travel (going to the past of the SAME timeline) and this is possible VIA a hypertimeline

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

A parallel timeline can also be there "world" since it would be exact replica of the future trunks timeline which would have followed the same events till the buu arc where whis would have prevented death of beerus

You do realise the chart explains the timeline shenenigans for the anime itself to make it clear for the viewers

There may be replicas, but at what point can you definitively say that Zen'O destroyed all of them? Just because Zen'O destroyed it in this one doesn't mean it happened in the others; otherwise, several time rings would have been destroyed, not just one. But in any case, this refers to Zen'O's page (Anime), not the (Manga), and in the anime, the ring wasn't destroyed.

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

they're essensially traveling to different "worldlines" (parellel worlds) not actual direct time travel (going to the past of the SAME timeline) and this is possible VIA a hypertimeline

According to your explanation, they can travel into the past via the hypertimeline, so you're saying they can go to the past of another parallel world via the hypertimeline, but that would only prove the destruction of the macrocosm because to travel via the hypertimeline, it must exist, which always comes down to a 2-C grade.

 

[Mbpoops]

According to your explanation, they can travel into the past via the hypertimeline, so you're saying they can go to the past of another parallel world via the hypertimeline, but that would only prove the destruction of the macrocosm because to travel via the hypertimeline, it must exist, which always comes down to a 2-C grade.

it isnt just the macrocosm tht was destroyed but the neutral zone aswell so it would be Low 1-C as per a previous thread but im pretty sure early comments said it was PIS so im not quite sure

 

[Optimus.negz]

Hello everyone, today I'm going to talk about a topic that I think many of you won't like.

I'm going to explain why Zen'O isn't eligible for 1-C.

Zen'O's feat was accomplished by destroying Trunks's timeline, which is marked as "erased from reality" by the official website, given that Trunks' timeline is a 1-C hypertimeline.

Since it is stated that the entire timeline, the entire universe, has been destroyed, then normally the three spatial dimensions and the temporal dimension of Future Trunks' Universe 7 should have been completely destroyed.
This means that there are no longer any axes of movement and time no longer exists. Time itself should no longer exist in the true sense of the word.

Given that the temporal dimension can be considered an infinite line encompassing an infinite number of points, and each point represents a static moment in the universe, also called a snapshot, the set of all these points forms the totality of spacetime.
Therefore, destroying the dimension directly implies destroying the line and the infinite number of snapshots.

Now, the question is... did Zen'O destroy all of space-time?

The answer is no. The time ring representing Trunks' timeline was destroyed, demonstrating that the timeline no longer exists in the true sense of the word. Therefore, the fact that Goku can return to it, that he can move forward in this universe supposedly "erased from reality," proves that it wasn't entirely erased. Without proof to the contrary, Goku isn't spacefaring, and he could also breathe even though there was no oxygen.

Furthermore, Whis explains that he can bring Trunks and Mai back to "their" world before its "destruction," implying that the time dimension wasn't completely erased and that snapshots of the past remain, since Whis can bring them back to a time before their world's destruction.

This is further reinforced by Bulma's statement that if they return to "their" world before its "destruction by King Zen'O," they will have to face Zamasu again.
Therefore, "their" world is indeed the timeline that is supposed to have been completely destroyed.

In the FAQ, there's the question, "When is the destruction or creation of a universe or timeline ranked as Low 2-C (Universe level+)?"

The answer was that it required the creation/destruction of all three-dimensional space at every instant in time. The entire timeline had to be destroyed, and the act of creation/destruction had to be direct.

An example was given: destroying the universe at the beginning of time, causing everything else to disappear due to the paradox of causality. The present cannot exist without the past, and without the present, there is no future. This destruction, however, doesn't meet the requirements and can only be classified as 3-A.

In Zen'O's case, it's proven that the past still exists, as demonstrated by Whis and Bulma's statements, implying that not all three-dimensional space was destroyed at every instant in time. At best, he destroyed the present and the future (the present because, from Future Trunks's perspective, it's "his present"), but the past remained unaffected. This also debunks Zamasu's 1-C, which is supposed to be one with the entire universe, including the time dimension.

Conclusion: Zen'O does not meet the requirements for timeline destruction and should therefore be downgraded to 3-A, or High 3-A maximum.

I find some of his arguments quite relevant, especially on the distinction between the destruction of physical content and that of the space-time continuum, which deserves reflection on the current classification… I partially agree.

 

[Qawsedf234]

the time being, I will ping @Qawsedf234 @Reiner04 and @Vietthai96 who were major contributors to the previous thread that got them upgraded to 1-C.

You can, through direct action, go back to a previous iterations of a multiverse without a hyper timeline construct

The amount of snapshots would be one more than the number of times the timeline was changed. So, for example, if the timeline is rewritten 2 times, there would be 3 snapshots of the timeline: the original, the timeline after the first rewrite, and the timeline after the second rewrite. Which is far less than the required uncountably infinitely many that a higher temporal axis requires.

So going back to a previous iteration is possible under our standards, just not common.

I’m not interested in DB, but this is clearly not how higher dimensions work.

It is on our site. The difference between 3D and 8D can be quantified (given a numerical distinction), but the difference between a physical realm and an Outerversal realm cannot be quantified since there are no numerical difference but a difference in metaphysical presence.

Just because a PIS exist doesn't mean it didn't happened.

It's not PIS, it's just that the wiki increases all Space-Times as we default to an Eternalism viewpoint.

Additionally, for a space-time, the extra 1-D is because there exists a transinfinite series of universal snapshots. Time would still exist, its just all the objects occupying the timestream would be destroyed.

Also

Tier 3 Zeno
Tier 3 for the character who canonically obliterates 2-C characters

Lmao

 

[Optimus.negz]

Hello everyone, today I'm going to talk about a topic that I think many of you won't like.

I'm going to explain why Zen'O isn't eligible for 1-C.

Zen'O's feat was accomplished by destroying Trunks's timeline, which is marked as "erased from reality" by the official website, given that Trunks' timeline is a 1-C hypertimeline.

Since it is stated that the entire timeline, the entire universe, has been destroyed, then normally the three spatial dimensions and the temporal dimension of Future Trunks' Universe 7 should have been completely destroyed.
This means that there are no longer any axes of movement and time no longer exists. Time itself should no longer exist in the true sense of the word.

Given that the temporal dimension can be considered an infinite line encompassing an infinite number of points, and each point represents a static moment in the universe, also called a snapshot, the set of all these points forms the totality of spacetime.
Therefore, destroying the dimension directly implies destroying the line and the infinite number of snapshots.

Now, the question is... did Zen'O destroy all of space-time?

The answer is no. The time ring representing Trunks' timeline was destroyed, demonstrating that the timeline no longer exists in the true sense of the word. Therefore, the fact that Goku can return to it, that he can move forward in this universe supposedly "erased from reality," proves that it wasn't entirely erased. Without proof to the contrary, Goku isn't spacefaring, and he could also breathe even though there was no oxygen.

Furthermore, Whis explains that he can bring Trunks and Mai back to "their" world before its "destruction," implying that the time dimension wasn't completely erased and that snapshots of the past remain, since Whis can bring them back to a time before their world's destruction.

This is further reinforced by Bulma's statement that if they return to "their" world before its "destruction by King Zen'O," they will have to face Zamasu again.
Therefore, "their" world is indeed the timeline that is supposed to have been completely destroyed.

In the FAQ, there's the question, "When is the destruction or creation of a universe or timeline ranked as Low 2-C (Universe level+)?"

The answer was that it required the creation/destruction of all three-dimensional space at every instant in time. The entire timeline had to be destroyed, and the act of creation/destruction had to be direct.

An example was given: destroying the universe at the beginning of time, causing everything else to disappear due to the paradox of causality. The present cannot exist without the past, and without the present, there is no future. This destruction, however, doesn't meet the requirements and can only be classified as 3-A.

In Zen'O's case, it's proven that the past still exists, as demonstrated by Whis and Bulma's statements, implying that not all three-dimensional space was destroyed at every instant in time. At best, he destroyed the present and the future (the present because, from Future Trunks's perspective, it's "his present"), but the past remained unaffected. This also debunks Zamasu's 1-C, which is supposed to be one with the entire universe, including the time dimension.

Conclusion: Zen'O does not meet the requirements for timeline destruction and should therefore be downgraded to 3-A, or High 3-A maximum.

The 3-A to 2-C would be more convincing

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

The 3-A to 2-C would be more convincing

2-C would make more sense, yes.

 

[Killerdrone123]

There may be replicas, but at what point can you definitively say that Zen'O destroyed all of them? Just because Zen'O destroyed it in this one doesn't mean it happened in the others; otherwise, several time rings would have been destroyed, not just one. But in any case, this refers to Zen'O's page (Anime), not the (Manga), and in the anime, the ring wasn't destroyed.

I don't know what you even mean by the first part given a single timeline is accepted to be a hypertimeline

You do realise that at the end of the arc we can see only six time rings in the boxs preety much confirming ft time ring was destroyed too

 

[Optimus.negz]

Time Travel vs Dimension Travel

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I don't understand, when Zeno destroyed the "timeline", the machine sent them to another "timeline" but why do we see Zen'O after having "destroyed" the "timeline".
I can have a concrete explanation ?

 

[Killerdrone123]

I don't understand, when Zeno destroyed the "timeline", the machine sent them to another "timeline" but why do we see Zen'O after having "destroyed" the "timeline".
I can have a concrete explanation ?

Respectfully i don't even know what you mean here

 

[Mbpoops]

I don't understand, when Zeno destroyed the "timeline", the machine sent them to another "timeline" but why do we see Zen'O after having "destroyed" the "timeline".
I can have a concrete explanation ?

acausality

 

[Optimus.negz]

acausality

Thanks

 

[Optimus.negz]

Respectfully i don't even know what you mean here

I can't make it clearer

 

[Robo432343]

3-4 staff disagreements
should this be closed

 

[SailorRanger64]

I've always been confused by what Zeno does.

So he destroys Trunk's timeline and the Time Ring poofs out of existence, that I do know. But Goku and the others can somehow go back to the timeline where the other Zeno is, which is a whole other can of worms by the way, and bring him into their timeline with the other Zeno? Reminds me of that one chapter in Super Paper Mario where the one kingdom was destroyed by the void but Mario and crew can somehow go back and it's nothing but a white void.

Hmm, I'd have to agree with OP here.