| Assassin: @Kazuma_kuwabara | Incon: @Stillwinston | Kid: |
To clarify, first key Isaac is stronger here (effectively), the two keys are just because they're two versions of the same character, it's just that the latter comes with a downside that limits him to only 8/12 passive items, with an upside that isn't relevant here, so the first key, which doesn't have that limitation, is better here
I was told Optional Equipment was allowed and is yet another non SBA thing that is usable. Other characters on other tiers are placed because of their optional equipment.
Time stop go brrr sadly.
Changed
Honestly, good point, also considering that what exactly Isaac does with optional equip is kinda ill-defined, due to the ways items interact and overwrite each other.
Is said time stop permanent?
Won't matter as if Isaac fires even one tear and proceeds to create a wall of bullshit that literally takes up all of the space in and around Isaac
Depends, because Isaac can absolutely massively upscale from his AP but I'm also unsure given any build that does that would prolly be equivalent to an 8-B one in game, so figuring out how much exactly Isaac upscales is an issue, and I also just remember he just does have a pocket 8-B explosive given the void, giving him Mama Mega (mildly wondering if I could argue he could become 8-B mid match off generating pedatals lol)
See the above
He does have a bit, but off the top of my head
and a bunch of other things that he could get off, but won't feasibly unless he beats corvo into mush
No? Item overriding I would have tenatively agreed on if it wasn't for Repentance doing it's damn best to make sure items just don't outright replace each otherHonestly, good point, also considering that what exactly Isaac does with optional equip is kinda ill-defined, due to the ways items interact and overwrite each other.
I admittedly only know the earlier version of the game well. Are all item effects been made independent of collection order now?
Lasts like 20~ seconds
Won't stop Corvo from raising his hand, possessing him and incapping with Seperation Trauma.
No amount of upscaling is going to overcome a 20x AP advantage
. Corvo also upscales his value notably as he performed his 9-A+ feat without even being amped by the Void.Its just not in his page.
Hes just never getting hit by them like at all. Time stop, outranging them, speed amps, teleportation and possessesion, stealth. Corvo has so many ways of just saying lol no to this.
Corvo has dark vision to see through obstructions and see Isaac.
Corvo just incaps him with a variety of methods. He can literally raise his hand and Isaac goes to sleep instantly with Seperation Trauma.
Isaac knows he's in a battle via SBA, Corvo hiding doesn't really mean anything. Corvo won't know the exactly correct hax to lead with so quickdraw doesn't either.
"Outranging them" with what? I don't think most of Corvo's magic has more than like, 15 meters range off gameplay. Sure as hell there are no scans on the profile, he just has the extremely vague "Tens of Meters to Hundreds of Meters with ranged weaponry and magic" rating, which could literally just mean one of his guns hits that far and nothing else does.
Lost Contact passively grants all of Isaac's tears the ability to negate enemy shots (works against the strongest enemies so that includes 8-B projectiles). And Corvo can't reflect them cause they're intangible in return, thanks to a bevy of different items.
Isaac has like, actually like 30 different means of negating, diverting or nulling damage from projectiles. I don't even think I'm being hyperbolic, I'd link some but fandom is down.
How long does that last? Cause it ain't incap if it's not over a day and I'm doubting it's that long.
Unfortunately the dogs don't have 5000 "kill you instantly" abilities so.
Well Corvo can't outrange with anything that can hit Isaac and can basically instantly manifest a massive wall of projectiles around himself at a moment's notice. So it's a question of "Corvo can't do shit at range and dies instantly the second he enters Isaac's range"
Not independent but they have been made to not hard override in most cases, Mom's Knife + Brim, for example, gives you a barrage of mom's knives now for example, the only exception to that being doctor and epic fetus, but Isaac has sad/brimstone bombs in this case anyways so they don't matter beyond just giving him more damage ups.
No?
It means he has nothing to target and thus no reason to spam Danmaku, not like that matters anyway because Corvo subverts it easily. The point is that he will never even see Corvo, much less hit him, who is free to Za warudo **** him with sniper precision.
Which is irrelevant because it won't work in Timestop
You are wrong here
And yes, Corvo's sleep hax will put you out for the entirety of his several hour long missions
None of which will ever hit Corvo, who is free to slaughter Isaac over and over (He doesn't need to do this because he can easily KO him with a hand wave but alas).
This is incorrect. Even ignoring timestop. Even ignoring possession. Lets ignore any active power. He's not even gonna get the chance to put up any Danmaku because Corvo can at will amp his perception to gaggle blitz the kid with anything he wants at range.
Timestop negs this again. Posession negs this again. Isaac cannot hit or see Corvo.
This is incorrect. Time Stop lets him do whatever the hell he wants at range with no counterplay.
For the last time. Isaac will not hit or even see Corvo. Those "projectiles" you keep hyping will be made statues to Corvo at his will. He can literally timestop + teleport away at will. The initial ranged attacks will also be transmuted at will passively.
My mistake.
Multiple enemies in Isaac start out in situations wherein they can't be seen from room enter, this isn't really that different of a situation for Isaac to not just do the usual of firing tears and whoops there goes any chances of Corvo even trying to get close
For blink, nothing else
Lost contact shuts this down because any projectile that comes into contact with one of Isaac's tears/lasers gets deleted, even from bosses such as Delirum or The Beast, who massively upscale from the 8-B value have their projectiles cancelled out, there's also the other methods of projectile null Isaac which slow down, redirect or outright delete projectiles that try to get close to Isaac passively
Okay, let me make what's happening with Isaac's danmaku here extremely clear, it takes far less stacked Isaacs 1 frame of firing to create enough tears, collisions, and whatnot to crash the game on the spot
Thats not analogous because its not in a confined room. He doesn't know if Corvos just invisible, if he's coming close etc. You'd need to justify why he uses it as a preemptive defense from hundreds kf meters away.
Is that not a magic?
Will not work in timestop. Try again.
Why do i care about this? Its still moving in slow motion to Corvo (Time Slow or Blitz amps) or completely still (Various time stop methods). Its still much slower than Corvo, game mechanics be damned.
Several problems here
The point is that Corvo gets a guaranteed defense in one case to do more permanent moves like teleporting out of range or timestopping (and this is not all he can do to just neg the Danmaku).
A. You can't justify this
Will be easily statued and dodged by Corvo's timestopping teleports. Isaac is not capable of hitting Corvo.
A suicide attack that again, gets outranged (Corvo timestop-teleports out of this apparently room sized AOE easily) and won't even activate due to corvo blitzing Isaac or time freezing or slowing him.
Another vague non argument. Its annoying how you seriously expect me to take "Isaac just wins man" as a serious argument without elaboration.
I think you are misunderstanding Isaac's danmaku, it isn't a handful of well-ordered projectiles, it's literally just a wall of projectiles overlapping with each other. Saying Corvo can skill his way through it is like saying Corvo can walk through walls.
Scan?
Which doesn't matter because he literally can never approach Isaac
Except Daud's profile only has a scan for Blink's range, not his other magic stuff. They don't have the same range in gameplay, I don't see why they should in lore.
Any projectile touches a projectile Isaac makes, it's gone. He also passively pushes all projectiles away from himself.
Physically, no showings of such with his equipment or magic. Frankly even the feat as it is is sus given it's the ghost touching him.
In that case one of Isaac's dozen companions can just wake him up.
Except it's literally impossible for any conventional ranged attack to get through Isaac's billion things, Isaac can tank a fuckton of hits due to his various abilities and can also negate damage in a variety of ways.
Isaac doesn't need to see shit when he can passively hit literally everything within a few dozen meters of himself at once.
I think you are failing to understand that with all or most of his items at once Isaac's projectiles literally cannot be dodged. He's basically putting up a solid wall of them. Arguing about stealth or skill or blitzes is like arguing you can avoid the oxygen in the air.
It's not a literal wall. Its just a large amount of small projectiles moving one after another in close formation. No matter how small those gaps are, they do exist, and Corvo can easily take advantage with his blitz amps or time manipulation and just shoot through them with pinpoint accuaracy. That is my point. Its akin to Byakuya's Senbonzakura. Against a normal opponent, Those tiny holes in the movement of the projectiles can never be exploited, but against someone who is both much much faster than the enemy, and can simply stop the projectiles moving all together (Time Stop). This is just the nature of a mass amount of projectiles.
It's on you to justify why he knows Corvo is hiding rather than slowly closing the SBA range. Its on you to justify why he'd know he's nearby at all (as opposed to moving further from SBA range). Its on you to prove he'd do so preemptively. Him being "not a moron" is not nearly enough evidence to bridge these absurd logical leaps.
Here.
A. He can with possession, which you haven't even responded too
"Daud's profile only has this showing for his magic ability to justify why his magic is listed as having that range"
You can absolutely do shit like summon rats from tens of meters out.
And what VS wiki indexable ability does it use to do these things? This isn't helpful.
You need to justify why there'd be a distinction (especially for magic lol, you know, the vehicle in the verse that allows for supernatural instances like NPI).
A. Do you know what a handshake is is?
Won't get summoned and will just get negged by the same time stop anyway.
You can't justify this.
This isn't an argument. It doesn't even provide any sort of clear ability or something of the sort that actually be meaningfully responded to. This is just "Issac just wins."
That doesn't change the fact he still can't hit him. The attacks are going to be moving in slow mo and Corvo can literally time stop teleport out of their range.
I'm not failing to understand anything. You're the one failing to understand my point about the "gaps" and such I spoke of earlier in this post. I won't repeat myself here, but the wall you speak of will not protect Isaac if its moving to slowly or not at all.
"I win because I've won"
I just think You'd say this of anyone who seriously made an effort to disagree and didn't bend over backwards to positively appease you in doing that.
Do you think large objects cant have gaps between them? Wtf? This is a non argument.
This is another example of you failing to track my arguments and then pushing some jab at my character because of that. Your issues with this debate are entirely your fault.
What on earth are you even talking about? You keep throwing out these vague assertions that no one can even discern what you're even referring to, and then calling others dishonest for just asking you to specify.
This is just you lying in an attempt to slander me to justify you noping out of the discussion you chose to be in after facing imaginary difficulties (as is this whole post) Here is what I actually said:
I was merely asking you to more clearly define what you were talking about. You refused to do that, and are now calling me ridiculous. Maddening.
Why do you tell yourself this shit as if it makes you special? Everyone has a life outside of some VS wiki debate lol. You're just conceding a debate and withdrawing. You don't need to qualify it with some self pitying shit about the follies that led from your own choices.
This attitude is exactly why I have better things to do. I have never claimed that I am somehow "special", you are welcome to carry on with your day just as I will, I just have no interest in engaging further because this is not a discussion you are approaching in good faith - you may not interpret this as a concession to any of your arguments. Have a pleasant day.
This is the same attitude you brought forth with your erroneous claims of bad faith. Stop acting like a victim. You started the personal attacks.
You don't have the authority to make that judgment call. Continue acting as though you do and I am going to simply lock this thread.
I responded this several times. I can literally take a still from this video MS paint (at literally any point during the danmaku) and draw a line between one projectile wall and the next. I don't understand how this point is too abstract to get. The both of you continue to not address this, and just reassert the initial claim. You not understanding my rebuttal is not a failing of mine (Like @Armorchompy
You two have made a career here crying about me "refusing to engage" when you refuse to address my simple and concise point (Literally one sentence in some case) addressing your points.
And where did the assumption that I'm crying come from, after I already engaged with the point, showed evidence to the contrary, and you simply just didn't accept the evidence as valid? There's nothing else to be said there.
I use "crying" to just means harping on a given issue.
You did not show evidence to the contrary. The video just supports my point. You can stop the the video at any point during the Danmaku and see gaps. That point is what's not by addressed by you people. The problem here is that you and your buddy think "nuh uh" is an actual argument that its wrong for me to push back on.
A. I was simply saying that time stop means the abilities of the Danmaku won't activate. Me saying it would let Corvo attack through gaps is a separate claim. You just can't track anything.
EDIT: Okay so apparently Isaac's range is also outdated since in this clip he has a range stat value over 1k, and with range being measured in tiles it would likely be a kilometer's worth of range. Sigma.
The ability to block attacks should still work because is passive, but the activation of statuses should not work
This is not a "wall" for you though?
Uh no. This is not how this would work. At most the objects would still behave like physical objects (I.E. Corvo can't slip through solid objects like Casper) but any defensive abilities would not activate regardless of the activation condition being passive or active (The ability still needs to go from T-1 where its not active to T-2 where it is, which literally can't happen in a time stop)
I don't see how any of this would lead you to the conclusion of an incon. In this view, you're basically saying, Corvo can win, but it would be a massive slog. He just has to kill Isaac over and over, which he has actually fought before (Even fodder dogs in his verse have infinite type 8 immo), whereas anything Isaac tries would be neutered by time stop.
Just pause the video and you'll see countless gaps. You can again, literally just go into MS Paint and draw lines through these gaps in the screenshots.
I did not read this for some reason
If he leaves Isaac sleeping he wins for sure, but if he decides to attack then the multiple passives activates, if Isaac gets hit and he is in range, instant Danmaku from one item that makes him attack after getting hit in area and activates all the tear
Won't matter. Corvo time stops teleports away and his reaction amps make him more than fast enough to do this.
Its not reliant on perfect play. Its just basic use of his abilities. Corvo has many sleep hax options, and funnily enough, many timestop options. Isaac being unable to do anything is just the natural result of Corvo's basic abilities (Corvo's basic movement option with Blink has timestop baked into it).
Corvo would use time stop in character though. Thats all thats needed for my argument. Corvo would use ranged attacks when he's at range.
Yes. I gave both fighters optional equipment because its allowed for the Non smurf thread apparently (and is the reason Isaac is high).
Flashbacks to first time I played DH1 and did high chaos lolLetting them fall to their death
