[Genshin] The Traveler's Upgrade + Adding Class Z LS to the God-Tiers

[MSahla]

What I am asking for is proof that having more kuuvahki directly scales to physicality.

I thought your strength getting stronger = your physicals getting stronger, too?
Because Columbina's strength legit getting stronger after having more more Kuuvahki.
Unless you think “Strength” isn't necessarily means “physicality” or physicals and so i need a proof of them mentioning the “physicality” and the likes.

I honestly don't know exactly what you want. With all respect.

 

[Planck69]

I thought your strength getting stronger = your physicals getting stronger, too?
Because Columbina's strength legit getting stronger after having more more Kuuvahki.
Unless you think “Strength” isn't necessarily means “physicality” or physicals and so i need a proof of them mentioning the “physicality” and the likes.

You do need proof of that yeah. If all you do is spam lightning bolts and "you get stronger", that doesn't mean you now punch as hard as your lightning bolts. Perhaps there is proof in Genshin but every single thing I've seen has been done via energy/spells/etc. so you can understand my confusion here.

 

[MSahla]

You do need proof of that yeah. Perhaps there is proof in Genshin but every single thing I've seen has been done via energy/spells/etc. so you can understand my confusion here.

But that's just hyper-specifict, isn't it? Searching the exact moment where did they say/mentioned “physics.” As far as i recall, it was never mentioned any “physical” words and the likes at all.

All i have is that the statements of their strength getting stronger, so it's safe to assume that their physicals are getting stronger too.

It's not like your analogy here, where u basically saying “oh i have more Kuuvahki energy, and so my Kuuvahki power is stronger” But that's not just the case here. Because not only did their kuuvahki is getting stronger, but their physical strength too.

And in that scene, Arlecchino mentions that after she gave her more kuuvahki, her strength is back to the level when she was the Third of the Fatui Harbingers, where the Top 3 of the Fatui Harbingers having a strength comparable to that of gods.

If those are not enough, then.. I have no idea no more.

 

[Planck69]

But that's just hyper-specifict, isn't it? Searching the exact moment where did they say/mentioned “physics.” As far as i recall, it was never mentioned any “physical” words and the likes at all.

Well yes it is specific, why do you think we don't hand out UES to every single verse on the site that just has a magic system? And your overstating how hard it is to get a statement as basic as "this magic/mana lets my punches land harder"/"My arm swings faster and better now that my (insert magic here) is topped up" or other statements like that.

All i have is that the statements of their strength getting stronger, so it's safe to assume that their physicals are getting stronger too.

It's not like your analogy here, where u basically saying “oh i have more Kuuvahki energy, and so my Kuuvahki power is stronger” But that's not just the case here. Because not only did their kuuvahki is getting stronger, but their physical strength too.

And in that scene, Arlecchino mentions that after she gave her more kuuvahki, her strength is back to the level when she was the Third of the Fatui Harbingers, where the Top 3 of the Fatui Harbingers having a strength that comparable to the gods

If those are not enough, then.. I have no idea.

We do not just "assume" that physicals scale proportionally to more magic, that would be assuming that non-physical energy systems don't exist and its just Universal Energy Systems all the way down. That does need to be proven. Like, are there any feats of characters coating their fists/empowering their bodies with this stuff? Anything like that? Does no one throw a punch in this verse?

 

[MSahla]

Like, are there any feats of characters coating their fists/empowering their bodies with this stuff? Anything like that? Does no one throw a punch in this verse?

This?

 

[Planck69]

This?

Does he throw a punch or anything like that?

Honestly, this whole thing just tells me that the UES thing would need to be handled first cause without it, I see no actual reason for them to scale to a non-physical TK feat.

 

[MSahla]

Does he throw a punch or anything like that?

I mean, he will get much stronger if he got shot with kuuvahki cannon.

Does he throw a punch? Well, here's a cutscene of him:

Here the Traveler mentioned he's stronger than before upon absorbing the Kuuvahki.

 

[MSahla]

Very funny that i need to prove him throwing a punch

This?

But cmon man.. Is this not enough? Even though that's what you want.

 

[Furina003]

You have to establish why this UES would scale to one's physical lifting strength. Just having a UES doesn't scale LS by default was the point I was making, especially for a non-physical feat. And even then;

To qualify for a Universal Energy System, you need to not only prove that a proportional amount of said energy scales with one's physical attributes but also qualify for limited and non-physical energy system requirements, which have all attacks scale to each other in potency and drawing from the same source of power. The OP's quotes at most prove a non-physical energy system, since there's no direct evidence of having more kuuvahki meaning one's physical attributes are enhanced.

There is evidence that the greater the amount of Kuuhvaki energy someone possesses, the stronger their physical power becomes.

This is demonstrated in the case of Rerir, where he utilized Kuuhvaki energy to enhance his physical strength by absorbing it.

For example, when he absorbed Kuuhvaki energy to restore his physical body, he was able to use up to 10% of his original power.

In a later statement.
Rerir became even stronger after absorbing more Kuuhvaki energy.
Therefore, the more Kuuhvaki energy an individual has, the greater their physical strength.

This is also consistent with the case of Moon Marrow as explained by Sahl.

This power is also directly proportional to their lifting strength . It is stated that Columbina obtained a greater amount of Kuuhvaki energy by converting Abyssal energy into Kuuhvaki energy.

As a result, Columbina was able to restrain Rerir (minute 2.35) , who was previously stronger than her. because she successfully stole Rerir’s power and converted it into Kuuhvaki energy.

From these cases, it can be concluded that the greater the amount of Kuuhvaki energy an individual possesses or utilizes, the greater their physical capabilities, such as Attack Potency and Lifting Strength.

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Will this make Venti relevant again?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

EDIT: UES Explanation
Because there are several things that are needed to provide strong evidence for this LS scaling to happen, and because UES is one of the options, I will explain it here.


There's an energy called Kuuvahki.
Kuuvahki itself came from the Three Moons' power. As a Moon / Trilune Goddess possessing all of the Three Moons' power, her main power is obviously Kuuvahki itself cause Kuuvahki is literally coming from herself. She can also fight with this power as shown here.

Kuuvahki being UES is should be obvious cause many people or things can use Kuuvahki, such as; the Moon Wheel users, monsters and plants, and even people utilize it for their daily life.

And then there's a Moon Marrow. The Moon Marrow is a divine artifact left behind in the aftermath of a Moon Goddess's death. As the remains of the Moon Goddesses, the Moon Marrows are a source of tremendous Kuuvahki Energy, and it's power can make someone even more powerful.
As shown here with Arlecchino after possessing the Iridescent Moon's Marrow.

I think these are enough to prove Kuuvahki is a UES.

None of this truly proves the applicability of this energy to scale to LS. You basically have only proven that everyone has a form of this energy. There's nothing to actually substantiate scaling from this.

But the worse ofender...

It should be noted that, in Genshin Impact's lore, these people (especially the Four Shades and the Five Sinners) CANNOT be lower or weaker than the Moon Goddesses, especially Columbina, as they are hierarchically equal or higher than Columbina, and have demonstrated an equal or even a greater feats than her. So all of them should automatically scale to Columbina without any further explanations needed.

Based on what? Where's the evidence of this hierarchy existing? What's the evidence this hierarchy must also include LS?

 

[MSahla]

Based on what? Where's the evidence of this hierarchy existing? What's the evidence this hierarchy must also include LS?

Maybe try to look at this

[Genshin] The Traveler's Upgrade + Adding Class Z LS to the God-Tiers

Introduction 👋 Back again. This is basically the continuation of the previous CRT in attempt to upgrade the ratings from the current God-Tier characters slowly. This time we are gonna include the Traveler. Both of these things should be straightforward hopefully. Class Z God-Tiers Now that...

vsbattles.com

@Reiner04 agreed that only Four Shades scale to the Moon Goddesses because they're proven enough to be far superior than the Moon Goddesses as a whole.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So, based on explanations above, they could potentially bypass or negate such a hold rather than overpower it directly (nothing in the game shows so).

So they don't actually need to scale to LS then. They just negate her energy and that's GG right there.

As for the particular evidence brought, only one scan can maybe justify the scaling if you squint at it enough:

1. Nicole states that the Moon Goddesses are nowhere near the Heavenly Principles to challenge them.

But frankly, it's quite simple. If they are so much superior to the Moon Goddess that they seemingly don't even need to try to overpower her and (it seems) all they need to do is blast her apart, then this statement, reasonably, can only support an AP sort of scaling. Best case scenario I could see is a likely rating, but I very much dislike that there isn't more direct evidence to even justify that. All in all, I will remain neutral on the particular scaling (as in, saying they have the same LS through sheer superiority).

But I am firmly on Planck's side that there isn't enough evidence to have LS scale through the verse energy system.

 

[MSahla]

.But I am firmly on Planck's side that there isn't enough evidence to have LS scale through the verse energy system.

Me and @Furina003 are currently waiting for Planck's respond, because both of us are trying to prove wether this Kuuvahki energy can be a UES and so therefore can reasonably scale to their physicality overall (Including LS)

There is evidence that the greater the amount of Kuuhvaki energy someone possesses, the stronger their physical power becomes.

This is demonstrated in the case of Rerir, where he utilized Kuuhvaki energy to enhance his physical strength by absorbing it.

For example, when he absorbed Kuuhvaki energy to restore his physical body, he was able to use up to 10% of his original power.

In a later statement.
Rerir became even stronger after absorbing more Kuuhvaki energy.
Therefore, the more Kuuhvaki energy an individual has, the greater their physical strength.

This is also consistent with the case of Moon Marrow as explained by Sahl.

This power is also directly proportional to their lifting strength . It is stated that Columbina obtained a greater amount of Kuuhvaki energy by converting Abyssal energy into Kuuhvaki energy.

As a result, Columbina was able to restrain Rerir (minute 2.35) , who was previously stronger than her. because she successfully stole Rerir’s power and converted it into Kuuhvaki energy.

From these cases, it can be concluded that the greater the amount of Kuuhvaki energy an individual possesses or utilizes, the greater their physical capabilities, such as Attack Potency and Lifting Strength.

This?

 

[MSahla]

It'll be very helpful if you can evaluate wether this Kuuvahki energy is a UES or not. You can read the conversation between me and Planck from the first page.

 

[MSahla]

Snip

Oh yeah you haven't give your thoughts about the Traveler one, what's ur thoughts on it?

 

[Planck69]

I feel like in all this UES discussion, my main contention was lost. Namely, even if you proved a UES, you'd need to prove that this scales lifting strength specifically. Universal Energy Systems far more robust than anything in Genshin Impact fail to achieve that and it seems especially absent here.

 

[MSahla]

even if you proved a UES, you'd need to prove that this scales lifting strength specifically. Universal Energy Systems far more robust than anything in Genshin Impact fail to achieve that and it seems especially absent here.

But didn't you ask for proof that the kuuvahki energy we discussed earlier can increase overall physicality? And you previously asked for feats that show someone using that energy to empowered themselves, their body, or their strength, and I've already shown that:

This?

I mean, he will get much stronger if he got shot with kuuvahki cannon.

Does he throw a punch? Well, here's a cutscene of him:

Here the Traveler mentioned he's stronger than before upon absorbing the Kuuvahki.

If these are still not enough, then i have no idea because these are pretty blatant to me that kuuvahki can increase their physicals overall including lifting strength.

 

[Planck69]

But didn't you ask for proof that the kuuvahki energy we discussed earlier can increase overall physicality? And you previously asked for feats that show someone using that energy to empowered themselves, their body, or their strength, and I've already shown that:



If these are still not enough, then i have no idea.

Yes, because the discussion meandered into Kuuvahki being a Universal Energy System. My point is that on top of being a Universal Energy System, you would also have to to prove that this power scales lifting strength proportionally, as I have mentioned multiple times before;

It potentially can but it needs to be properly established as a function of that Universal Energy System. Merely having a system doesn't automatically scale one's lifting strength feats to the amount of power one has.


This ties into what I said above. Columbina's showcase is fine for herself, obviously but you would need to already establish what I said for it to scale to others i.e. the amount of the setting's energy you have is directly proportional to one's lifting strength, even more so here because it is not a physical lifting strength feat.

What the UES page wants would be something like "I have more kuuvahki, so I can punch you harder" or something equally as direct. Being more powerful generally and just using energy/non-physical attacks (like the quoted videos) isn't enough for that.

And even after proving that you would also need something like, "My ability to lift X is cause of kuuvahki", but at least this requirement seems satisfied.

I feel like there's a miscommunication here. I do not deny that having more kuuvahki makes you more powerful, that's why I even acknowledged non-physical energy system for it at all. What I am asking for is proof that having more kuuvahki directly scales to physicality. Either that or the other characters would need proof of having telekinesis and would scale via that.

 

[MSahla]

Yes, because the discussion meandered into Kuuvahki being a Universal Energy System. My point is that on top of being a Universal Energy System, you would also have to to prove that this power scales lifting strength proportionally, as I have mentioned multiple times before;

I guess I don't need to dwell on this Kuuvahki any further. But what do you think about the Traveler's upgrade in OP?

 

[Planck69]

I guess I don't need to dwell on this Kuuvahki any further. But what do you think about the Traveler's upgrade in OP?

It seems fine at a glance, though I have no knowledge of Genshin's internal scaling.

 

[MSahla]

It seems fine at a glance, though I have no knowledge of Genshin's internal scaling.

So, about the Four Shades and Five Sinners scale to the LS, are you more into Neutral or Disagree?

 

[Planck69]

So, about the Four Shades and Five Sinners scale to the LS, are you more into Neutral or Disagree?

Disagree. To be clear, my agreement is only for stat scaling like attack potency and durability. Not anything else for any character.

 

[MSahla]

Snip

Hello, sorry for the ping, but can you give your input again about Shades and Sinners LS scaling?

So far:
Reiner04 = Agree with Shades only
Planck69 & LephyrTheRevanchist = Disagree with both.

 

[MSahla]

I consider Traveler's upgrade are accepted cause we got 3 votes already.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Pretty much everything's already been discussed here, I'll also disagree with shades and sinners. I do have some doubts regarding soveriegn's but that shouldn't be any problem here. Anyways you get my point.

 

[MSahla]

Pretty much everything's already been discussed here, I'll also disagree with shades and sinners. I do have some doubts regarding soveriegn's but that shouldn't be any problem here. Anyways you get my point.

Aight, i guess the only accepted one is the Traveler's one. I'll apply that now.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

no one read my points about traveler not scaling to rerir


Anyway shoudlnt dottore get class Z for basically stopping the moon himself

 

[MSahla]

no one read my points about traveler not scaling to rerir

You are talking about Moon Marrow Traveler (Low 5-B)

Anyway shoudlnt dottore get class Z for basically stopping the moon himself

That's for his False Moon God key, but we don't have that yet. (Ask Gianny)