On some more Honkai chainscaling + NEP3 removal

[SuperNova55555]

Well, I guess I have to make this thread since apparently some things resolved last chainscale CRT weren't actually resolved. Luckily, they're pretty damn simple things so ts won't take a while (hopefully)

1) Zephyro Nuke

So we have Welt scale to High 1-C cuz of this:

His Zeroth Power: Quasi Black Hole was also capable of clashing with Zephyro's White Hole.

What we saw:

What Welt bros saw:

If you don't see the problem, it's that for some reason, we are assuming that Welt even remotely scales to Zephyro here. And if you're too lazy to watch the vid, don't worry, I'll explain:

1. The vid starts off with the first scan posted here
2. Almost immediately after, we have Zephyro's White Hole completely engulf that of Welt's, in which then does the universe rapture.
3. We are also stated that this is the one future that is completely hopeless for us (facing Zephyro)

For some reason, we have this completely assymetrical showing of power somehow making Welt be equivalent to Zephyro, even though he's not only the one who effortlessly destroyed him, but also we know it's in general his power since we have Zephyro do the same feat (in another possible future) with IX:

Many believe Zephyro's targeting the Nihility. One Self-Annihilator once described a nightmare: At the end of all things, with nothing left to destroy, a Lord Ravager hurled himself into IX's divine corpus, followed by a single, violent beam of white that pierced the endless dark.

The thematic importance here is that Zephyro controlling White Holes, the antithesis to Black Holes, has the ability to make extremely violent attacks when reacting with such Black Holes. And in both cases, it is a feat propagated by him.

There is no reason for Welt to scale to this. Genuinely at all. It wouldn't even make sense anyhow.

2) Scepter UES inconsistency

We have this statement of scepters:

Then we have this:

March 7th": Besides — and this is just an example — if Madam Herta wanted to, she could have whipped out her Imaginary weapon any time and blasted this "Scepter" to bits.

Which is referring to this:

as a bomb for detonation that obliterated the vanguards of the Antimatter Legion along with 24 planets in one go.

Which um, is basically saying this "UES" construct has galaxy AP but an explicit 24 planets worth of durability. Hm. Very "UES", I know. So basically, UES shouldn't apply for Scepters since they have massive inconsistencies between AP and durability.

This is obviously because they're meant to mimic actual irl technology. Like, a nuke obviously doesn't have nuke-lvl durability. That's absurd.

3) IX NEP3

• Nonexistent Physiology (Nature【Types 1 & 3】; Aspects 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5【Other: Life, Logic, Space-Time, Order & History】; IX is nothingness itself, the opposite of everything that makes up all of existence, which includes body, mind, soul, spirit, life, logic, matter, space, time, order, history, concepts and fundamental information. Other Aeons are still detectable and identifiable through special means while IX is undetectable and unidentifiable by any means)

For some odd reason this guy still has Type 3 NEP after Type 2 was nuked... if you see the proof here, please do tell me.

Votes:

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Well, I guess I have to make this thread since apparently some things resolved last chainscale CRT weren't actually resolved. Luckily, they're pretty damn simple things so ts won't take a while (hopefully)

1) Zephyro Nuke

So we have Welt scale to High 1-C cuz of this:

What we saw:

What Welt bros saw:

If you don't see the problem, it's that for some reason, we are assuming that Welt even remotely scales to Zephyro here. And if you're too lazy to watch the vid, don't worry, I'll explain:

1. The vid starts off with the first scan posted here
2. Almost immediately after, we have Zephyro's White Hole completely engulf that of Welt's, in which then does the universe rapture.
3. We are also stated that this is the one future that is completely hopeless for us (facing Zephyro)

For some reason, we have this completely assymetrical showing of power somehow making Welt be equivalent to Zephyro, even though he's not only the one who effortlessly destroyed him, but also we know it's in general his power since we have Zephyro do the same feat (in another possible future) with IX:

The thematic importance here is that Zephyro controlling White Holes, the antithesis to Black Holes, has the ability to make extremely violent attacks when reacting with such Black Holes. And in both cases, it is a feat propagated by him.

There is no reason for Welt to scale to this. Genuinely at all. It wouldn't even make sense anyhow.

The future for iX is literal dream, the future with welt is actual future predicted by terminus so thats an HUGE Difference, and we cant just say zephyro can nuke IX simply bcs his powers are made to counter them, that also makes no sense. you know irontomb even before ascending had a way to counter erudition, and yet he had to actually ascend, connect to nous and then begin all his fuckery to actually destroy the path. So until there is some further info on how zephyro kills IX that isnt a dream of some self anihillator i disagree with this.
what i do agree is welt not being = to zephyro. that idea is absurd given both script and visual support this.
But in no way this means welt just doesnt scale to zephyro, this is a feat performed by two forces clashing per script, and thus would make no sense if zephyro can just nuke entiree cosmos on its own and even if we say it doesnt nuke ENTIRE cosmos, it has to power to significantly affect it. theres just no narrative standpoint that implies such, so i disagree with removing welt scaling.
If you are fine with "at most" for welt i am fine too but complete removal? bullshit otherwise youd be also saying terminus is just yapping bullshit for actually predicting 2 forces capable of clashing against each other even if one is stronger than the other

 

[Mbpoops]

Well, I guess I have to make this thread since apparently some things resolved last chainscale CRT weren't actually resolved. Luckily, they're pretty damn simple things so ts won't take a while (hopefully)

1) Zephyro Nuke

So we have Welt scale to High 1-C cuz of this:

What we saw:

What Welt bros saw:

If you don't see the problem, it's that for some reason, we are assuming that Welt even remotely scales to Zephyro here. And if you're too lazy to watch the vid, don't worry, I'll explain:

1. The vid starts off with the first scan posted here
2. Almost immediately after, we have Zephyro's White Hole completely engulf that of Welt's, in which then does the universe rapture.
3. We are also stated that this is the one future that is completely hopeless for us (facing Zephyro)

For some reason, we have this completely assymetrical showing of power somehow making Welt be equivalent to Zephyro, even though he's not only the one who effortlessly destroyed him, but also we know it's in general his power since we have Zephyro do the same feat (in another possible future) with IX:

The thematic importance here is that Zephyro controlling White Holes, the antithesis to Black Holes, has the ability to make extremely violent attacks when reacting with such Black Holes. And in both cases, it is a feat propagated by him.

There is no reason for Welt to scale to this. Genuinely at all. It wouldn't even make sense anyhow.

i dont see why either of them remotely scale. we have no proof of zephyro living or dying to the blast but we can assume since it "ruptured the cosmos" and ended elio's script that zephyro did die along with the rest of the universe. it would be weird to assume that everyone excluding (or including teehee) aeons died except zephyro when hes in point blank range of the blast, that would be assuming he has 2-A durability and since the verse uses UES it goes back to his AP which doesnt make sense. justification should just be change for both to:

"3-C, higher with white hole | 2-A upon colliding his white hole with a black hole"

"3-C, higher with Star of Eden | 2-A upon colliding Zeroth with a white hole"


everything else i think is fine

 

[Mbpoops]

yea dont get me wrong either i do NOT think welt fully scales to zephyro, its just a reaction that happens when a while hole and black hole's singularities spawn on eachother as we see in the video

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

The latter 2 points I completely agree with.
On Welt vs Zephyro.

For now I’m in Mbpoops camp of it scaling to neither of them and something Zephyro can’t do without Black holes. (Also possibly high 1-C star of Eden. Cooked)
But I’m following the thread

 

[PedjaTarzan]

i dont see why either of them remotely scale. we have no proof of zephyro living or dying to the blast but we can assume since it "ruptured the cosmos" and ended elio's script that zephyro did die along with the rest of the universe. it would be weird to assume that everyone excluding (or including teehee) aeons died except zephyro when hes in point blank range of the blast, that would be assuming he has 2-A durability and since the verse uses UES it goes back to his AP which doesnt make sense. justification should just be change for both to:

"3-C, higher with white hole | 2-A upon colliding his white hole with a black hole"

"3-C, higher with Star of Eden | 2-A upon colliding Zeroth with a white hole"

both are 3-C, one is just "at most" because his capped there and the other guy is just casually there for reasons, you can guess who is who

 

[Voidnether]

I'll reply to the Scepter later since Imaginary Implosion Pulse and Scepter are completely two different things.

IX is NEP3 derived from this:

Flowing in the narrow border between “existence” and “nothingness”, the ice-cold tides eternally lap against the shores and bring all things to their final end.

Horizon of Existence is the border between Existence and Nonexistence, this is consistent so even if this is not NEP3 because Horizon of Existence is not both, and not NEP2 because Horizon of Existence isn't neither. I propose atleast a higher degree rating for its NEP1

Acheron is stated to be an Emanator that shouldn't exist because an Emanator of Nihility can't exist, but Acheron exists anyway and I still do think IX is capable of sentient thought (?) cause if IX is NEP1 and not NEP3 then IX should be mindless too, if IX isn't mindless then IX retains it's NEP3

 

[SuperNova55555]

The future for iX is literal dream, the future with welt is actual future predicted by terminus so thats an HUGE Difference, and we cant just say zephyro can nuke IX simply bcs his powers are made to counter them, that also makes no sense. you know irontomb even before ascending had a way to counter erudition, and yet he had to actually ascend, connect to nous and then begin all his fuckery to actually destroy the path. So until there is some further info on how zephyro kills IX that isnt a dream of some self anihillator i disagree with this.
what i do agree is welt not being = to zephyro. that idea is absurd given both script and visual support this.
But in no way this means welt just doesnt scale to zephyro, this is a feat performed by two forces clashing per script, and thus would make no sense if zephyro can just nuke entiree cosmos on its own and even if we say it doesnt nuke ENTIRE cosmos, it has to power to significantly affect it. theres just no narrative standpoint that implies such, so i disagree with removing welt scaling.
If you are fine with "at most" for welt i am fine too but complete removal? bullshit otherwise youd be also saying terminus is just yapping bullshit for actually predicting 2 forces capable of clashing against each other even if one is stronger than the other

So first of all, I’m not saying Zephyro can just arbitrarily nuke IX. If I said that somewhere, please do point it out.

And it being a dream is not an argument, that’s just not how exposition works. Especially when we know Zephyro later on is capable of committing this feat via Welt. It’s a very obvious narrative point that Hoyo is trying to present us, and it makes no sense for it to be disqualified on some unfounded vagueness. And there’s a reason Lord Ravagers are capable of killing Aeons, because they can achieve those conditions one way or another.

I am merely making a case that Zephyro’s feat is conditioned, but in both cases, his presence is what is relevant here.

And also, I am not saying Zephyro is somehow intrinsically capable of nuking the universe whenever he wants, that is too, conditioned.

But there is a clear point here in that Zephyro is capable, or at the very least, narratively implied to be capable of nuking the cosmos in relation to some black hole adjacent thing.

Of which, I don’t believe you addressed the massive inconsistency in power (which you seem to admit as well). So if the Universe raptures only after Zephyro fully absorbs the black hole or when he does a particular feat, elaborate on why Welt’s energy output should be relevant.

Horizon of Existence is the border between Existence and Nonexistence, this is consistent so even if this is not NEP3 because Horizon of Existence is not both, and not NEP2 because Horizon of Existence isn't neither. I propose atleast a higher degree rating for its NEP1

Flowery language diff again. Also this additionally presumes you agree that IX is intrinsically only NEP1, but whatever.

I'll reply to the Scepter later since Imaginary Implosion Pulse and Scepter are completely two different things.

Don’t bother because I also believe they’re obviously not the same. I’ll save you time before you make a comment strawmanning my point.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

So first of all, I’m not saying Zephyro can just arbitrarily nuke IX. If I said that somewhere, please do point it out.

And it being a dream is not an argument, that’s just not how exposition works. Especially when we know Zephyro later on is capable of committing this feat via Welt. It’s a very obvious narrative point that Hoyo is trying to present us, and it makes no sense for it to be disqualified on some unfounded vagueness. And there’s a reason Lord Ravagers are capable of killing Aeons, because they can achieve those conditions one way or another.

I am merely making a case that Zephyro’s feat is conditioned, but in both cases, his presence is what is relevant here.

And also, I am not saying Zephyro is somehow intrinsically capable of nuking the universe whenever he wants, that is too, conditioned.

But there is a clear point here in that Zephyro is capable, or at the very least, narratively implied to be capable of nuking the cosmos in relation to some black hole adjacent thing.

Of which, I don’t believe you addressed the massive inconsistency in power (which you seem to admit as well). So if the Universe raptures only after Zephyro fully absorbs the black hole.

Which power inconsistency are we talking about here? since having "at most" for clashing against someone albeit losing is not even a problem here. welt would just not scale directly to zephyro stats (the emanator value of 3-C just with soe instead), downscales like this are common and this one is the case here unless script was just saying idk zephyro will completely and utterly negative diff the only guy capable of fighting him and thus nuke cosmos, because thats not what script says.
And ill also ask this are we keeping zephyro tier 2 possibly 1 rating after this crt or not since im confused on how this nukery thing works, not against welt being below zephyro but against this feat not being scalable to him in any way even if its just downscaling whatever value emanators have with SoE

 

[SuperNova55555]

Which power inconsistency are we talking about here? since having "at most" for clashing against someone albeit losing is not even a problem here. welt would just not scale directly to zephyro stats (the emanator value of 3-C just with soe instead), downscales like this are common and this one is the case here unless script was just saying idk zephyro will completely and utterly negative diff the only guy capable of fighting him and thus nuke cosmos, because thats not what script says.
And ill also ask this are we keeping zephyro tier 2 possibly 1 rating after this crt or not since im confused on how this nukery thing works, not against welt being below zephyro but against this feat not being scalable to him in any way even if its just downscaling whatever value emanators have with SoE

So can I know what the reason for downscaling is? You haven’t made that clear at all. He downscales cuz he got nodiffed…?

This is like saying Khaslana = Zephyro cuz he was being played with and nodiffed like a *****. I’m very confused on your point.

Also, I’m tentatively fine with Zephyro himself being T2. If ya’ll wanna suggest it being so only in particular cases, I’m not too against that, tho Cas might ***** about it again.

 

[Voidnether]

So first of all, I’m not saying Zephyro can just arbitrarily nuke IX. If I said that somewhere, please do point it out.

And it being a dream is not an argument, that’s just not how exposition works. Especially when we know Zephyro later on is capable of committing this feat via Welt. It’s a very obvious narrative point that Hoyo is trying to present us, and it makes no sense for it to be disqualified on some unfounded vagueness. And there’s a reason Lord Ravagers are capable of killing Aeons, because they can achieve those conditions one way or another.

I am merely making a case that Zephyro’s feat is conditioned, but in both cases, his presence is what is relevant here.

And also, I am not saying Zephyro is somehow intrinsically capable of nuking the universe whenever he wants, that is too, conditioned.

But there is a clear point here in that Zephyro is capable, or at the very least, narratively implied to be capable of nuking the cosmos in relation to some black hole adjacent thing.

Of which, I don’t believe you addressed the massive inconsistency in power (which you seem to admit as well). So if the Universe raptures only after Zephyro fully absorbs the black hole or when he does a particular feat, elaborate on why Welt’s energy output should be relevant.


Flowery language diff again. Also this additionally presumes you agree that IX is intrinsically only NEP1, but whatever.


Don’t bother because I also believe they’re obviously not the same. I’ll save you time before you make a comment strawmanning my point.

So, there's some confusion about the NEP page itself which someone brought to my attention recently. I disagreed with them that it wasn't clear, but it seems maybe clarification might be needed after all.

Type 1 means they lack the thing entirely, and logically lacking a mind means you cannot think.

Type 3 covers any case where they're stated to lack something, but use it anyway, defying logic.

So if they're explicitly stated to not have a mind, but are clearly not mindless, then they need to be changed from Type 1 to Type 3.

Normally having an avatar would bypass this, but for mind specifically it does not since to even think to create an avatar and have that avatar enact any kind of personality implies a mind of some kind.

God of War CRT: Primordial Overhaul

Okay, so now, the aspect mind of NEP1 means that entity must be mindless? It's strange that some characters with NEP1, which includes aspect mind, are still able to think. make a CRT and have it removed.

vsbattles.com

The Aeon that presides over the Path of Nihility. THEIR existence is a mystery.
IX doesn't interact with the other Aeons. THEY believe that the ultimate fate of the multiverse is nothingness, and therefore, worthless.

The existence of Nihility is a mystery itself, THEIR form enshrouded by layers of mist.
IX doesn't interact with the other Aeons. THEY believe that the ultimate fate of the multiverse is nothingness, and therefore, worthless.

IX is explicitly stated to be nothingness, nonexistence that's the opposite of existence which is reality (which includes minds by default or mental cognition). IX seems to have a sentient thought per the scans I gave above which actually would make this NEP3 instead of being NEP1, don't really know if you could have both at the same time but IX is clearly not mindless yet it lacks a mind which I think NEP3 is best supported further here.

The shadow of Nihility covers the stars equally, and Self-Annihilators may form in any world. If we call them phenomena, these poor souls do share one thing in common: Their various existential properties — such as corporeal body, mental cognition, and personal memories... will gradually fade away in their journey of self-annihilation.

 

[SuperNova55555]

God of War CRT: Primordial Overhaul

Okay, so now, the aspect mind of NEP1 means that entity must be mindless? It's strange that some characters with NEP1, which includes aspect mind, are still able to think. make a CRT and have it removed.

vsbattles.com

IX is explicitly stated to be nothingness, nonexistence that's the opposite of existence which is reality. IX seems to have a sentient thought per the scans I gave above.

Sooo. How does NEP1 even exist as a hax?

 

[PedjaTarzan]

So can I know what the reason for downscaling is? You haven’t made that clear at all. He downscales cuz he got nodiffed…?

which part of script says he got no diffed? did you even read what the script says because "will devour each other" is not a case of saying someone no diffed someone at all, in fact YOU should explain why this is a no diff fight.

This is like saying Khaslana = Zephyro cuz he was being played with and nodiffed like a *****. I’m very confused on your point.

You are comparing a fight where Zephyro was specifically tasked to test Phainons power and the fight in the alternate future where Express had to face Zephyro, those two are completely different points, and now you have to explain why the **** would zephyro toy with welt, why would zephyro use something specifically capable of countering and nuking nihility for fun, mind you this would be his highest feat performed so saying he performed this feat so casually cuz he no diffed welt is also nonsensical and VERY inconsistent, especially since he doesnt surpass emanators in power like irontomb did

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

So can I know what the reason for downscaling is? You haven’t made that clear at all. He downscales cuz he got nodiffed…?

Cause the script says the black hole and the white hole are going to consume each other rather than saying the white hole will destroy the black hole and blow up after the fact.
Which infers the two entities need each other to get this reaction and that The black hole isn’t infinities below the white hole

If ya’ll wanna suggest it being so only in particular cases

I’m a fan of doing this btw

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I don't really agree with 1) or 2). Kafka clearly states that there was an impasse resulting in a mutual wipe-out. The 2D animation just didn't show everything. I think finality's prophet is more trustworthy as it's a full statement unless you think elio and kafka are welt fans.

Almost immediately after, we have Zephyro's White Hole completely engulf that of Welt's, in which then does the universe rapture.

That didn't really happen either. Welt's power never fully diminished. The rapture happened because of their clash so the feat should be attributed to both. Similar feats to this are attributed in a bunch of other profiles in other verses. Idk why we are nitpicking to this excessive degree here.

As for 2), we don't REALLY know if this would actually happen. March could be bluffing as Herta didn't use, or she did and it didn't work, said weapon in the alternate timeline nor was Evernight actually convinced it would work. It also doesn't say the weapon she'd make with her emanator/magic powers would be the exact one Chadwick had...

Why does everything gotta be a thread btw? Like you gotta be doing this on purpose atp

 

[Voidnether]

Sooo. How does NEP1 even exist as a hax?

I DONT KNOW I'M LEAVING THE ENTIRE NEP3 STUFF TO THE STAFF HONESTLY LMFAO, I couldn't care less about Welt not scaling to Zephyro but yeah I'll address the scepter one soon since it's a lot honestly

 

[Scrubforhire]

I agree with mbpoops I think this nuke thing shouldn't scale to either of them since it kinda makes no sense for Zephyro to survive the universe being destroyed since that would mean Zephyro is comparable someone like 99% coronation progress Irontomb who did nuke the verse and no-sold the blast which we know can't be possible because of the war prep videos.

 

[SuperNova55555]

which part of script says he got no diffed? did you even read what the script says because "will devour each other" is not a case of saying someone no diffed someone at all, in fact YOU should explain why this is a no diff fight.

You are comparing a fight where Zephyro was specifically tasked to test Phainons power and the fight in the alternate future where Express had to face Zephyro, those two are completely different points, and now you have to explain why the **** would zephyro toy with welt, why would zephyro use something specifically capable of countering and nuking nihility for fun, mind you this would be his highest feat performed so saying he performed this feat so casually cuz he no diffed welt is also nonsensical and VERY inconsistent, especially since he doesnt surpass emanators in power like irontomb did

Cause the script says the black hole and the white hole are going to consume each other rather than saying the white hole will destroy the black hole and blow up after the fact.
Which infers the two entities need each other to get this reaction and that The black hole isn’t infinities below the white hole


I’m a fan of doing this btw

Statement: Devours each other
Visual: Literally the opposite thing

If I take a bite out of Oroboros as it eats me, we’re technically devouring each other… does that mean we scale to each other…?

That didn't really happen either. Welt's power never fully diminished.

Because the screen goes white a frame before it happens.

It also doesn't say the weapon she'd make with her emanator/magic powers would be the exact one Chadwick had...

It pretty much can’t be anything else since we know Herta specifically inherited the knowledge.

Why does everything gotta be a thread btw? Like you gotta be doing this on purpose atp

? Genuinely what are you talking about? How am I supposed to alter the pages otherwise?

 

[Voidnether]

Statement: Devours each other
Visual: Literally the opposite thing

If I take a bite out of Oroboros as it eats me, we’re technically devouring each other… does that mean we scale to each other…?

Because the screen goes white a frame before it happens.


It pretty much can’t be anything else since we know Herta specifically inherited the knowledge.


? Genuinely what are you talking about? How am I supposed to alter the pages otherwise?

Actually on second thought, could you make a new thread exclusive to the Scepter or I'll just make it myself? Like a CRT addressing your points and my points, since this CRT eventually stems down to Welt scaling to Zephyro and whatnot which is gonna be pages long and I don't think anyone could track the Scepter argument both ways if everyone's focusing on Zephyro vs Welt

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also @PedjaTarzan can you like stop saying stuff like that this:

why the **** would zephyro toy with welt, why would zephyro use something specifically capable of countering and nuking nihility for fun, mind you this would be his highest feat performed so saying he performed this feat so casually cuz he no diffed welt is also nonsensical and VERY inconsistent

This is just a strawman. I already explained I don’t believe Zephyro does this casually. I’m not sure why you’re so insistent I’m saying this.

 

[Mbpoops]

Statement: Devours each other
Visual: Literally the opposite thing

well yea zephyro wins just not instantaneously which is why welt doesnt scale physically its just the star of eden downscaling, the holes were devouring eschother zephyro just output more energy than welt so he won but because of the reaction of the singularities they blew up

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Statement: Devours each other
Visual: Literally the opposite thing

If I take a bite out of Oroboros as it eats me, we’re technically devouring each other… does that mean we scale to each other…?

Do you even understand what u talking about rn , ur once again using two completely different cases brother, no they are not literally voring each other. instead the two of the powers are clashing against each other before one eventually wins against another. LITERAL basic powerscaling sematics.
Anyway if welt zeroth soe downscales to this value >304.53235 ZettaFOE idgaf what you will do with zephyro stats and the entire crt since i alr agree with the rest, maybe not with scepter stuff since we dont know how reliable march is but thats not my thing here

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Also @PedjaTarzan can you like stop saying stuff like that this:

This is just a strawman. I already explained I don’t believe Zephyro does this casually. I’m not sure why you’re so insistent I’m saying this.

"I dont believe zephyro does this casually" and yet u proceed to say that zephyro no diffed welt, so either say zephyro scales to this via clashing against welt cuz he had to, or say he no diffed him and thus can also do this pretty casually (mainly talking abt rupturing cosmos shit).

 

[SuperNova55555]

well yea zephyro wins just not instantaneously which is why welt doesnt scale physically its just the star of eden downscaling, the holes were devouring eschother zephyro just output more energy than welt so he won but because of the reaction of the singularities they blew up

Do you even understand what u talking about rn , ur once again using two completely different cases brother, no they are not literally voring each other. instead the two of the powers are clashing against each other before one eventually wins against another. LITERAL basic powerscaling sematics.
Anyway if welt zeroth soe downscales to this value >304.53235 ZettaFOE idgaf what you will do with zephyro stats and the entire crt since i alr agree with the rest, maybe not with scepter stuff since we dont know how reliable march is but thats not my thing here

Right. So they were devouring each other, as any interaction between opposing forces manifests, but Zephyro output more energy

Which is my point.

"I dont believe zephyro does this casually" and yet u proceed to say that zephyro no diffed welt, so either say zephyro scales to this via clashing against welt cuz he had to, or say he no diffed him and thus can also do this pretty casually (mainly talking abt rupturing cosmos shit).

Me: Zephyro no diffed Welt
You: So you’re saying he uses the feat casually

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

If I take a bite out of Oroboros as it eats me, we’re technically devouring each other… does that mean we scale to each other…?

Literally no correlation.

Because the screen goes white a frame before it happens.

No. The video shows Zephyro's slightly overpowering Welt's and then it freezes there before going white.

It pretty much can’t be anything else since we know Herta specifically inherited the knowledge.

Well I think there'd be a big difference considering Chadwick only had an experimental prototype, was a normal human and Herta is an emanator. There's also other arguments in that post.

? Genuinely what are you talking about? How am I supposed to alter the pages otherwise?

You don't

 

[Voidnether]

Actually on second thought, could you make a new thread exclusive to the Scepter or I'll just make it myself? Like a CRT addressing your points and my points, since this CRT eventually stems down to Welt scaling to Zephyro and whatnot which is gonna be pages long and I don't think anyone could track the Scepter argument both ways if everyone's focusing on Zephyro vs Welt

Yo could one of yall please respond to this for a sec since staff won't be able to evaluate the Scepter one anyway if I haven't give out my points yet

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Right. So they were devouring each other, as any interaction between to opposing forces manifests, but Zephyro output more energy

Which is my point.

So how in the world is this not just a downscale for welt at all? Clearly you can see that zephyro outputing more energy means he would obviously win the fight, which is why welt would only downscale from his 3-C stats which is also what im trying to explain.

Me: Zephyro no diffed Welt
You: So you’re saying he uses the feat casually

so then theres no diffing and i dont even understand why are you pushing for the "no diffing" argument when there isnt a no diff to begin with

 

[Mbpoops]

Right. So they were devouring each other, as any interaction between opposing forces manifests, but Zephyro output more energy

yea.. and SoE downscales from that so its still >304.5… Zettafoe ofc zephyro is stronger than welt thats obvious but neither of them IMO should have 2-A its just conditional which im fine with indexing as i said in my message

 

[Voidnether]

Yeah nah deadass just separate IX's NEP3 and the Scepter scaling on another thread, I already made my argument related to IX's NEP3, I can't have my entire POINT being IGNORED by the staff just because everyone's focusing on Welt scaling to Zephyro and shit especially if the Scepter one is passing without my points being made YET

 

[Mbpoops]

Yeah nah deadass just separate IX's NEP3 and the Scepter scaling on another thread, I already made my argument related to IX's NEP3, I can't have my entire POINT being IGNORED by the staff just because everyone's focusing on Welt scaling to Zephyro and shit especially if the Scepter one is passing without my points being made YET

why are you crashing out its only been an hour…

 

[Voidnether]

why are you crashing out its only been an hour…

Because I do know when Castorice is active and hops on this thread it's gonna be 10 pages long like I'm precogging it, HSR 4.2 is literally tomorrow and I can't have this thread passing despite me not making any points regarding the Scepter UES because I wasn't given enough time. I deadass dont think the staff would evaluate IX's NEP3 too despite I already made the point myself. LIKE I CAN'T HAVE THE STAFF AGREEING TO SCEPTER UES BEING NUKED WITHOUT MY ARGUMENTS BEING PRESENTED YET.

Like im not waiting 3 months to upgrade the Scepter back despite zero points being made against it cause everyone focuses on the Welt scaling to Zephyro or not, you guys have to understand im the only one defending the Scepter scaling and IX's NEP3 here

 

[SuperNova55555]

Literally no correlation.

You can't prove this, by the way. If you don't know, it's called an analogy, not something you just ignore.

No. The video shows Zephyro's slightly overpowering Welt's and then it freezes there before going white.

And the white here supposedly is meant to not represent the rupturing of the cosmos that is the main point of that timeline... obviously.

Well I think there'd be a big difference considering Chadwick only had an experimental prototype, was a normal human and Herta is an emanator. There's also other arguments in that post.

I don't believe they are worthwhile because they are unsubstatianted. If you would present proof for why we should take your interpretations to be the case, I'd be glad to appeal to them.

You don't

You can stop being obtuse, by the way.

So how in the world is this not just a downscale for welt at all? Clearly you can see that zephyro outputing more energy means he would obviously win the fight, which is why welt would only downscale from his 3-C stats which is also what im trying to explain.

You can't have it like this. You can't just say that Welt arbitrarily downscales from some attack, and then argue that his value doesn't scale to it. Unless you think the cosmos-rupturing attack isnt cosmos-rupturing.

so then theres no diffing and i dont even understand why are you pushing for the "no diffing" argument when there isnt a no diff to begin with

In what sense is it not a no diff? It's not only the only unwinnable future, but also one where we see Welt get actively destroyed.

yea.. and SoE downscales from that so its still >304.5… Zettafoe ofc zephyro is stronger than welt thats obvious but neither of them IMO should have 2-A its just conditional which im fine with indexing as i said in my message

Can I know why it downscales? You can't assert that absolutely any 2 opposing forces are equivalent to each other js because they interact. This is like saying Jehoda scales to Rerir for shooting her arrow at his beam... but who knows, maybe you'd agree with that.

Yeah nah deadass just separate IX's NEP3 and the Scepter scaling on another thread, I already made my argument related to IX's NEP3, I can't have my entire POINT being IGNORED by the staff just because everyone's focusing on Welt scaling to Zephyro and shit especially if the Scepter one is passing without my points being made YET

Honestly, I spiritually agree with this.

Staff are borderline never reading this squabble so I recommend we js wait for them to come here and ask for summaries and then give our points to them.

 

[Voidnether]

You can't prove this, by the way. If you don't know, it's called an analogy, not something you just ignore.


And the white here supposedly is meant to not represent the rupturing of the cosmos that is the main point of that timeline... obviously.


I don't believe they are worthwhile because they are unsubstatianted. If you would present proof for why we should take your interpretations to be the case, I'd be glad to appeal to them.


You can stop being obtuse, by the way.


You can't have it like this. You can't just say that Welt arbitrarily downscales from some attack, and then argue that his value doesn't scale to it. Unless you think the cosmos-rupturing attack isnt cosmos-rupturing.


In what sense is it not a no diff? It's not only the only unwinnable future, but also one where we see Welt get actively destroyed.


Can I know why it downscales? You can't assert that absolutely any 2 opposing forces are equivalent to each other js because they interact. This is like saying Jehoda scales to Rerir for shooting her arrow at his beam... but who knows, maybe you'd agree with that.


Honestly, I spiritually agree with this.

Staff are borderline never reading this squabble so I recommend we js wait for them to come here and ask for summaries and then give our points to them.

Alright yeah im fine with this, yall can continue

 

[PedjaTarzan]

You can't have it like this. You can't just say that Welt arbitrarily downscales from some attack, and then argue that his value doesn't scale to it. Unless you think the cosmos-rupturing attack isnt cosmos-rupturing.

maybe if we understand that the only time zephyro would genuenly have his tier 2 rating is when he actually nukes IX according to self anihhilator gooners, i also dont understand what your arguments are anymore. IS Zephyro vs Welt scalable to tier 2 OR NOT?
If it isnt then he downscales from his tier 3 stat, if it is he downscales from his tier 2 stat, if you cant decide then dont write this typa threads so ******* choose what kind of downgrade are u making

In what sense is it not a no diff? It's not only the only unwinnable future, but also one where we see Welt get actively destroyed.

You do know that Hertatomb future is called "Destiny worst outcome" so what does "unwinnable future" have to do with anything about being no diffed? unwinnable future is also a future when character CAN fight another character but its just destined to lose anyway, thats how the script works it has nothing to do with diffing here brother

Can I know why it downscales? You can't assert that absolutely any 2 opposing forces are equivalent to each other js because they interact. This is like saying Jehoda scales to Rerir for shooting her arrow at his beam... but who knows, maybe you'd agree with that.

okay since i cant bring up the zepyhro casually doing his feat bcs his no diffed welt cuz its non sequitiur, can you actually provide any context that supports welt vs zephyro clash is the exact same clash as jahoda vs rerir, do you not realise how big of a headcannon this is? you are actually the first person who used this kind of logic out of anyone i had debate on this website, but i guess words from self anihillator gooners are more reliable than words from aeon
like its funny when u bring up random examples and then completely forget to prove how any of those examples is relevant towards welt and zephyro but mine is somehow a fallacy, at this point i think i might disagree with entire downgrade cuz this is how bad this logic is.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

You can't prove this, by the way. If you don't know, it's called an analogy, not something you just ignore.

Except this analogy is disanalogous

And the white here supposedly is meant to not represent the rupturing of the cosmos that is the main point of that timeline... obviously.

What

I don't believe they are worthwhile because they are unsubstatianted. If you would present proof for why we should take your interpretations to be the case, I'd be glad to appeal to them.

Unsubstantiated? They are clear-cut statements from both evernight's letter to march and the alternate timeline

 

[Scrubforhire]

This is why I kinda don't like trying to scale the alternate timeline stuff since we get barely any context or even an explanation as to what happened in those timelines, which just leads to rough speculation based on the very teeny tiny amounts of information we get from like a brief 10 second snippet.

Anyway as long as neither Welt or Zephyro scale to the universe blowing up I'm good

 

[Mbpoops]

all this terminus talk and i just realized terminus doesnt even have a page

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Anyway as long as neither Welt or Zephyro scale to the universe blowing up I'm good

Why can dragon ball and marvel/dc can scale w feats like that but not hsr

 

[SuperNova55555]

maybe if we understand that the only time zephyro would genuenly have his tier 2 rating is when he actually nukes IX according to self anihhilator gooners, i also dont understand what your arguments are anymore. IS Zephyro vs Welt scalable to tier 2 OR NOT?
If it isnt then he downscales from his tier 3 stat, if it is he downscales from his tier 2 stat, if you cant decide then dont write this typa threads so ******* choose what kind of downgrade are u making

No, the feat is T2 definitely. Issue is that if you believe that Welt genuinely contributed in a T2 feat significantly, how are you preposing that he doesn’t scale to it.

I’m not making this hard, you’re just confused on your own position.

You do know that Hertatomb future is called "Destiny worst outcome" so what does "unwinnable future" have to do with anything about being no diffed? unwinnable future is also a future when character CAN fight another character but its just destined to lose anyway, thats how the script works it has nothing to do with diffing here brother

Because it is to narratively imply that there is a clear power difference between the parties here. The entire post is a case on why the power difference appears to great for us to reasonably assume he scales.

maybe if we understand that the only time zephyro would genuenly have his tier 2 rating is when he actually nukes IX according to self anihhilator gooners, i also dont understand what your arguments are anymore. IS Zephyro vs Welt scalable to tier 2 OR NOT?
If it isnt then he downscales from his tier 3 stat, if it is he downscales from his tier 2 stat, if you cant decide then dont write this typa threads so ******* choose what kind of downgrade are u making

You do know that Hertatomb future is called "Destiny worst outcome" so what does "unwinnable future" have to do with anything about being no diffed? unwinnable future is also a future when character CAN fight another character but its just destined to lose anyway, thats how the script works it has nothing to do with diffing here brother

okay since i cant bring up the zepyhro casually doing his feat bcs his no diffed welt cuz its non sequitiur, can you actually provide any context that supports welt vs zephyro clash is the exact same clash as jahoda vs rerir, do you not realise how big of a headcannon this is? you are actually the first person who used this kind of logic out of anyone i had debate on this website, but i guess words from self anihillator gooners are more reliable than words from aeon
like its funny when u bring up random examples and then completely forget to prove how any of those examples is relevant towards welt and zephyro but mine is somehow a fallacy, at this point i think i might disagree with entire downgrade cuz this is how bad this logic is.

Your claim: The analogy is disingenuous
Reasoning provided: None

And to the point regarding the non-sequitur; it’s a non-sequitur because whether or not Zephyro is capable of blowing up the universe, has no claim on whether he nodiffs Welt or not.

Except this analogy is disanalogous

Your claim: The analogy is disingenuous
Reasoning provided: None

2x

What

After. Zephyro. Absorbs. The. Black. Hole. The. Universe. Goes. Boom.

So the moment it does that is the moment the black hole is fully absorbed. There’s no relevant enough reason for why there should be a point in-between the moment of absorption and the universe going badoom.

Unsubstantiated? They are clear-cut statements from both evernight's letter to march and the alternate timeline

Because you said this:

March could be bluffing as Herta didn't use, or she did and it didn't work, said weapon in the alternate timeline nor was Evernight actually convinced it would work.

And I want to know where these are stated in the series.

 

[Natsuki012]

1) Zephyro Nuke

So we have Welt scale to High 1-C cuz of this:
What we saw:

What Welt bros saw:

If you don't see the problem, it's that for some reason, we are assuming that Welt even remotely scales to Zephyro here. And if you're too lazy to watch the vid, don't worry, I'll explain:

1. The vid starts off with the first scan posted here
2. Almost immediately after, we have Zephyro's White Hole completely engulf that of Welt's, in which then does the universe rapture.
3. We are also stated that this is the one future that is completely hopeless for us (facing Zephyro)

For some reason, we have this completely assymetrical showing of power somehow making Welt be equivalent to Zephyro, even though he's not only the one who effortlessly destroyed him, but also we know it's in general his power since we have Zephyro do the same feat (in another possible future) with IX:
The thematic importance here is that Zephyro controlling White Holes, the antithesis to Black Holes, has the ability to make extremely violent attacks when reacting with such Black Holes. And in both cases, it is a feat propagated by him.

There is no reason for Welt to scale to this. Genuinely at all. It wouldn't even make sense anyhow.

while i do agree that Zephyro is stronger than welt, i don't know how you got that he was completely nodiffed from a vague 10 second clip that we have barely context on how the fight plays out. Besides, the "devour each other" does imply that a big fight happened, but once again we have little context