So firstly I’d like to address the Nyx thing since her involvement in the war after siring offspring seem to be a major point of contention regarding this revision, especially with the melee between the Primordials ongoing in the Void.
To quote
So case closed, the Primordials all desired power for themselves and, after siring children, began to wage war upon themselves for command of the cosmos, before Ouranos ascended to claim the crown right?
Except I think that’s an overly generous interpretation of events, note the wording with “combative brethren” a, frankly, completely unnecessary descriptor if the Primordials as a whole were joining war. Instead, I would argue the fact it seems to think specifying combative is more consistent with the idea it was a subset of the Primordials who battled, not the entire race?
But there’s no evidence for this right? Well…
At minute 11:13 into
this video I think we’ve got evidence to the contrary, to quote
So the very sagas of the Gods characterise Nyx as having no desire to rule in and of herself, meaning she has no motive to engage in the war of the Primordials herself. Which I would also point out, disqualifies her inherently from being one of the “combative brethren” who sought power and strove for control.
For those who’d argue her children being mentioned as existing before the war is evidence she sought offspring to join battle, I’d argue that’s a favourable interpretation that doesn’t actually hold up with this statement. Unless you want to prove she battled on another’s behalf it doesn’t fit what the text is establishing.
So ok, Nyx might be doubtuful but that’s it right?
Well, Thanatos seemingly has no desire to rule himself. We see no real influence of his across the saga beyond mentions and Ghost of Sparta where he’s seemingly submissive to Olympus. If he sought power for himself and previously (if we are to interpret that melee statement as including literally everyone from the Primordials.) acted to seek power for himself, then why would he not seek the fall of Olympus? This meta would position him as above the entire pantheon and that’s without accounting for Erinys and her powers.
I can’t see a way to reconcile Thanatos being a power-monger but then also working and even speaking on behalf of deities that he
* he is far weaker then
* he has no clear love for based off his celebrating the prophecy of the Marked Warrior.
Furthermore;
The Nyx passage also doesn’t really support the idea that her children scale to her or are all equally feared. The line is specifically
Grammatically, the entire passage is focused on Nyx as the subject. Every line before and after is describing her, her domain, and her presence, and it never actually shifts focus to her children. So the “who none dare challenge” clause reads more naturally as continuing to describe Nyx rather than suddenly referring to Death, Dream, and Strife. If it were about them, you’d expect the passage to continue describing them afterward (namely their domains, their powers and their essence) , but it immediately goes back to Nyx’s scale and presence instead. So it makes more sense to read it as Nyx being unchallengeable, not all of her children individually. Which I’d argue, fits with not only the idea Thanatos is submissive to the Gods, but also with the idea that he’s not above Olympus in scope, meaning any contradiction borne from Kratos killing him in single combat is a fallacy.
There is however a statement from Ghost of Sparta that will doubtless be used to support the alternative view, namely
this (3:45);
So ok, the Gods fear to enter Death’s Domain so that means Thanatos is above them right? Well not necessarily. While the statement categorically exists, no statement exists in a vacuum and we have to take it in the full context.
So how does Thanatos live up to this hype?
Well….
- Kratos is unintimidated by Erinys’ invocation of her father’s name and claims that neither her or anyone can stop him, which would have to include Thanatos himself (1:55)
- Kratos challenges Thanatos, is unmoved by his threats and alludes to his murder of Ares as a counter, also note how Thanatos seems to serve the Gods (2:37)
So ok, yeah, Thanatos is stated to be feared by the Gods but he’s also serving on their behalf, he’s not intimidating to Kratos, is matched in battle and is soon slain. When I’m telling you that Thanatos being an outlier negates the narrative of the game, I really do mean it negates the entire narrative of the game. This is the Death God’s only appearance in a game and the bulk of his lore comes from this and nothing implies he’s an insurmountable challenge to Kratos at that point.
Feats have, do and will always be taken as superior evidence to statements and not only do the feats not reflect the statements but we have other interactions and statements that nullify this interpretation Thanatos is anywhere near as powerful as the opposition proposes. If anything, the statements alluding to him as being that powerful are the outliers, not the rule.
And before anyone reaches for it, Zeus does tell Kratos to avoid Death’s Domain but, in context, he’s clearly discouraging him from learning the truth about Deimos, it’s not a statement implying anything beyond his own paranoia of exposure. Of anything, it’s more evidence that Zeus (who considers Kratos a mortal danger to himself) believes Kratos could potentially best Thanatos and Erinys.
So simply put, Thanatos either has no interest in ruling or he isn’t capable of seizing the reins by force. His role does not at all reflect the proposed upgrades and he actively is shown losing a battle to Kratos, meaning he can’t at all be on par with Ouranos.
And speaking of Erinys, I think this debate is ignoring her implications for the meta.
To quote Ghost of Sparta;
While it’s never stated outright, Erinys is quite clearly implied as a Primordial.
- she’s the daughter of Thanatos verbatim
- she’s described as concepts given form and life and shape, much like how Ouranos is described as being “the sky” or “the heavens”
- she clearly hears similar characteristics to him, such as the black wings and the monstrous transformation.
- she’s positioned as a taste of what he will bring to bear against Kratos and invokes him as a threat.
And furthermore, she’s got powers borne from the Void as per the Brady Games guide, which likely would have descended from Chaos itself considering Chaos is likewise described as a void and I’d note it’s similar life draining properties to the Blades of Chaos
So we’re not only asking to ignore Thanatos as a colossal outlier to the series despite everything telling us otherwise, but we’re also asking to do the same for Erinys too despite her also being all but stated to be a Primordial herself. I’d also like to point out the Chaos connection
If all the Primordials are equally powerful, then Why would Erinys deign to use powers descended from Chaos? Surely they would have no need to cannibalise an enemy combatant who would provide negligible benefit to their own power. It could just be part of the power hungry nature Primordials have but that doesn’t add up for reasons I’ve mentioned elsewhere.
Ok so who else is there? Well there’s Gaia. Not only is it note stated that she partook in the war, I’d actually argue that her doing so runs counter to what we’ve seen of her power and her characterisation thus far.
As I’ve previously asked, if Gaia can simply match Ouranos strength to strength and hand to hand, why does she need to act through Cronos, Hyperion and her sons to then defeat their father? And if she is of such a potency, why is Poseidon able to match her? Even with her ultimately tipping the balance to Kraros she’s still being pieced through, harmed and thrown around for much of their fight and the Brady Games guide, slediflally made with Sony Santa Monica’s aid, straight up confirms she’d die to Poseidon if not for Kratos. Even if she has worse manoeuvrability then her grandson that’s still more relativity then the above meta would imply.
Are we to consider this an outlier too? Well, no
*
Gaia is one tapped by Zeus in God of War III
*
Cronos believes Kratos has the ability to kill her and believes that, he himself can kill Kratos in turn.
* Kratos even seems to affirm this when he confronts Hephaestus, so both Kratos and the Smith God believe Cronos represents a threat to Kratos here.
* Gaia is also likely one shot by Zeus with the Blade in the First Titanomachy.
Even if we are to believe Gaia was an equal party in this combat of the Gods, clearly her being a peer to Ouranos and Chaos doesn’t line up with how she’s treated in the games. Burden of proof would then fall to those arguing she scales to that level of power in spite of her showings, or simply, that Gaia evenly battling in the Primordial War isn’t the outlier. And honestly? I think that’s the case here
Accounting for Thanatos and Erinys dying to Kratos, that’s now 3 Primordials undone by Olympian tier opponents by my count and one of them is demonstrated multiple times across multiple games. Are we to seriously argue that these are all outliers? If not then how do we explain this? Either Ouranos and his generation got cliffed by the likes of the Olympians or there’s more variance with these Gods then we’d otherwise believe. And based off narrative, I think that’s the likely bet.
Understandably narrative, as KLOl and Planck pointed out, is not some “inviolable” force in the face of scaling but, as I’ve said, if our metas completely fly in the faces of
* narrative intent
* what we see on screen
* what’s stated in the lore
Then I think we need to genuinely consider the claim itself especially when the alternative viewpoint is upheld via statements that themselves do not necessarily hold up or even mean what certain interpretations would lead one to believe.
Now to specific claims;
It’s not, please refer to my earlier discussion on why I personally doubt, Nyx, the Goddess who verbatim watches from her realm and would not be among the Gods who sought power for themselves.
So unless you can prove that she fought for another party during the melee then I’m unconvinced of the claim. Furthermore, I think I’ve illustrated the issues with Thanatos as well where he not only expresses no ambition beyond his realm but also no treatment by the narrative of being so utterly beyond the Olympians and Kratos.
Kratos himself would know exactly who Thanatos is via these very tales and also his status as a God and is not swayed by this reputation at all before slaying him.
The game itself tells us no such thing and you yourself, as well as others have illustrated hax the Primordials have in their possession that could close the gaps.
Chaos herself both would have within her possession the capabilities of the Scourge, the Blades of Chaos and the Primordial Fire directly shown to counter Nyx and Morpheus and we know Thanatos has his own esoteric hax that would, by virtue of its nature, negate durability. And further afield we’ve seen that the Furies (descended from Chaos) and the Fates are able to punch above their paygrade with their hax respectively, adding further doubt to your hypothesis that a melee would necessitate all combatants operating at equal levels of power.
Unless you can somehow prove that these guys all abstained from their hax for the entire, eternity spanning battle of course
Can you?
I’ve provided scans in my rebuttal and pointed out holes in your narrative that exist because of the games themselves.
It’s not, it’s actually what’s held to be the case in the bulk of presented materials. If the new material says otherwise (which it doesn’t?)
See the above, Nyx has no interest in rule and burden on proof is now on you to reconcile these two differing accounts. Either Nyx is a power hungry party seeking advancement or she’s a silent watcher, the game cannot be presenting her as both and no change of character is seriously implied.
I’m fine with conceding this point actually
See above and also, this entire debate is fundamentally stemming from an argument about interpretations for a mythic retelling of history in the face of what the games show you.
I’ve presented multiple showcases of not all Primordials standing head and shoulders able their later generations, implications that other Primordials are possessing powers at least worthy of using by their brethren and shown how alternative explanations can fit what we’re told in the Epics from Sons of Sparta.
TLDR: I am sternly against Thanatos being ruled as an outlier and think, between reasonable doubt and the showings we’ve seen, that scaling the Primordials should be performed on a case by case basis. We know for a fact some scale to Ouranos but we know others can’t by basic sense.
