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Warning:
This is a lengthy read dealing with various parts of Hi3 and HSR, being ever so slightly nitpicky while also covering topics like the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Scrolling up and rereading may be required to fully understand what's discussed as the AE VN can be pretty complicated at times.
Abbreviations that will be used:
IIE = Imaginary Internal Energy / Internal Imaginary Energy.
IE = Imaginary Energy.
HE = Honkai Energy.
AE VN = Anti-Entropy Visual Novel
All the scans are within this imagechest file. If you're having trouble reading them they'll be available in full size and quality here.
Summary:
This CRT will mainly be focused around removing Honkai Energy from HSR profiles through refining our understanding of Path Energies and what Imaginary Internal Energy (IIE) actually is in relation to Honkai Energy (HE).
It will have three main sections:
1. Disproving Imaginary Internal Energy (IIE) = Honkai Energy (HE)
2. Proving Imaginary Energy (IE) = Honkai Energy (HE)
3. Removing HE from Honkai: Star Rail.
Section 1 - What Imaginary Internal Energy is.
There are two notable sections that say IIE is HE within Hi3. These come in the Anti Entropy Visual Novel and a Part 1.5 optional readable called ‘Youyun’s Classroom’. We'll go through these one at a time.
Admittedly the arguments for why IIE isn't HE will seem weak at first. Once I go into what IIE is, it'll be more believable.
Here's the screenshot that is used to prove Imaginary Internal Energy is Honkai Energy.
However, once we bring up more context around the Anti-Entropy Visual Novel it contradicts this statement. The idea is called it a hypothesis (and should be treated as such). Further context goes into:
So, we know Tesla’s statement here isn’t entirely reliable and doesn’t prove IIE is HE. If you’re going off of Tesla’s statement alone to try and prove IIE = HE then the VN discredits this argument. It’s not a good piece of evidence.
Please note the mentions of the Second Law of Thermodynamics here. It’ll be important later. Small note of caution, you might need to reread the above scans when reading the below paragraphs.
Disproving scan 2.
This is the Part 1.5 Optional Readable.
Like the Anti-Entropy Visual Novel states, this is a hypothesis:
What IIE actually is:
IIE is always discussed when concerning Honkai Energy’s relationship with Negentropy. Entropy, Negentropy and Real Internal Energy are core parts of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
You’ll notice this is talked about heavily in the Anti-Entropy Visual Novel (AE VN). Notice the similarities in phrase. ‘Real Internal Energy’ is an actual term coming from the Second Law of Thermodynamics. ‘Imaginary Internal Energy’ is an adaptation of 'Real Internal Energy' by the writers. (Real Internal Energy is the measure of total energy within any given system.)
Because these terms parallel each other we can say IIE describes the amount of Imaginary Energy within any given system.
From the AE VN long paragraph, paraphrasing. ‘Mathematically, the Imaginary Internal Energy belongs to the collapsing, convergent manifold… while four-dimensional space-time… contains the thermodynamic manifestation of the ‘real internal energy’... these can be… used to predict Honkai fluctuations at the sub-atomic scale.’
Put together with the statements they make about the Second Law: ‘if the entropy of a system decreases, it will cause the entropy of another system to rise by a greater margin.’
This constructs the idea that there's a relationship between 'Real Internal Energy' and 'Imaginary Internal Energy' - This relationship can be used to predict 'Honkai fluctuations'.
If you look at the Part 1.5 optional readable, this idea holds up. It elaborates upon negative entropy and the relationship between it and Internal Imaginary Energy, going into how this causes Honkai Events. The term 'Internal Imaginary Energy' is only brought up when discussing the Second Law of Thermodynamics and thus is an adaptation of 'Real Internal Energy'. IIE is the Imaginary Space’s equivalent of ‘Real Internal Energy’ and is the measure of how much Imaginary Energy is within any given system. The scan below even talks about if the Second Law of Thermodyanmics can constrain Honkai Energy 'on the Imaginary Side' - Imaginary Space.
Now we understand what IIE is, how the writers use the term and how everything relating it and HE are in-lore hypothesise. We now know IIE is more likely just an adaptation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics for Imaginary Space. IIE is the measure of Imaginary Energy within any given system.
Section 2 - Honkai Energy is Imaginary Energy.
This is how Sa, Hare and Griseo discuss the Intertidal Zones, simply put areas containing large quantities of Imaginary Energy. Sa calls them Imaginary Energy tidal zones, Griseo and Misteln (Hare) calls them Honkai Energy tidal zones or Honkai Energy Belts.
Simply put, Sa, Griseo and Hare are referring to the same object here, though with their own knowledge, they describe it as Honkai Energy AND Imaginary Energy. This insinuates they're the same energy.
Furthermore the Part 1.5 HSR Hi3 collab calls the Imaginary intertidal zones 'Honkai Energy Intertidal Zones' - It's pretty blatant Imaginary Energy is HE.
The Dudu VN further states there’s a relationship between Negentropy and Imaginary Energy and that Imaginary Energy is Honkai Energy.
I believe this is enough to conclusively prove Imaginary Energy is Honkai Energy. In this way Imaginary Internal Energy is simply the measurement of Honkai Energy in any given system. Saying a character uses IIE isn't enough to give them hax.
Section 3 - How does HSR come into this?
In Welt’s ‘About the Paths’ dialogue on the Astral Express.
Aeons have control over a particular subset of Imaginary Energy. The part they take is called a Path - ‘an Aeon will completely take over this part of the Imaginary’ - Welt specifies part. Not whole.
Paths have their own individual energies. In the Irontomb fight, Herta blatantly talks about there being a ‘Path Energy Anomaly’ and Screwllum talks about ‘anomalies’ on a ‘Path chart’ - This implies each Path’s individual energy can be charted. We know Irontomb only uses Destruction Path Energy and he uses it to target the Erudition.
(Even if you take issues with this because of the current inaccurate scaling of Irontomb having all Paths due to various Pathstriders being in the Scepter, it's not too relevant and the following should prove Paths are subsets of Imaginary Energy, which is the main argument here).
To further back the idea that each Path has its own individual energy, lets go into where they talk about IIE in Honkai Star Rail.
The World-Cleansing Blood scan talks about ‘Imaginary Internal Energy aggregate’ and specifically mentions its ‘nature’ being similar to an ‘Emanator of Destruction’.
Imaginary Internal Energy CANNOT be Destruction Path Energy because it’s also used to describe the energy left behind by a Stellaron’s explosion. The Stellarons are products of Xipe, the Aeon of Harmony, not the Destruction. (See below) Therefore Stellarons must be made of Harmony Path Energy as we know from Welt's conversation that Aeons can only control their respective subset of Imaginary Energy.
With this we can understand that Imaginary Internal Energy can have its own specific nature. Nature refers to the Path of the specific Imaginary Internal Energy, which as we touched on, is just Imaginary Energy within any given system. This further backs up Welt’s statement that Aeons only take up part of the Imaginary.
At this point we know the varying Path Energies are just smaller parts of their respective whole. The whole is Imaginary Energy, or Honkai Energy.
In this way, calling all Path Energy users ‘Imaginary Energy users’ is not entirely wrong. They’re using Imaginary Energy (Honkai Energy) for their abilities, they just only have access to a smaller spectrum of it, this being the smaller part their respective Aeon took over and allows them to use. The game referring to a character as an 'Imaginary Energy user' isn't a counterargument here. It's not wrong, but it's not fully right.
This further fits with all Paths having different abilities despite being made of the same, whole, energy source. Calling a character a ‘Imaginary Energy user’ isn’t entirely correct. It’s an oversimplification and doesn’t respect that these Pathstriders don’t have access to other Path’s abilities, much like Lord Ravagers don’t have access to ALL other Path’s abilities. This means they don’t use the full spectrum of Imaginary Energy and shouldn’t be granted Honkai Manipulation, but we know their power is still Imaginary Energy, thus it's not entirely wrong either.
In conclusion:
- Statements of Honkai Energy being IIE and Nanook / Xipe wielding IIE shouldn’t give their followers Honkai Energy. Honkai Energy is Imaginary Energy and Aeons control their own individual subset of Imaginary Energy. Honkai Energy / Imaginary Energy is the whole. Nobody in HSR has been shown to be able to manipulate the whole, calling them Imaginary Energy users isn’t wrong but isn’t entirely accurate (as they only have access to a subset of Imaginary Energy) and thus can't be used as a counterargument.
- Pathstriders and anyone above them (Emanators, Aeons) will have what's listed under standard effects: this being IM and NPI.
- Emanators will have resistances to all standard effects universally through resisting the Intertidal Zones (made of IE) without being effected by Honkai Corruption. Pathstriders will not have this. Emanators will not have Low / High level HE Manip.
- Aeons will be stuck with a 'possibly High Level' Honkai manip rating.
- This CRT has no effect on anyone’s ratings. It means Honkai Energy manipulation should be removed from all HSR profiles other than Welt’s. Nor will any Hax from paths be added to Hi3 profiles, they'd need to demonstrate it to have it.
- Lord Ravager-Level Honkai Manipulation should be removed from the Honkai Energy page and placed somewhere else. I'm open for taking suggestions to where it should be placed. Either it should have its own area in the Destruction Path Energy page or each of the abilities that make up ‘Lord Ravager-Level Honkai Manipulation’ should be put in the profiles they're applicable to.
I advise each ability should only go to its specific Lord Ravager. If each ability here is improperly given to every Lord Ravager I will make a 2nd CRT going into how Lord Ravagers are mainly double Emanators (or at least Pathstriders) and how they all shouldn’t have each other’s abilities. There’s nothing to suggest Archforger has Celenova’s Reality Warping and Spatial Manipulation, for example. Yes, I am aware the Destruction Path has every path's abilities from the Scepter and Irontomb, yes, a CRT regarding this will be made.
- In addition the Honkai Energy page will get a note regarding this CRT that Imaginary Energy is Honkai Energy. This’ll be elaborated more upon when a reworked Honkai Energy page is made.
Request:
If you're going to disagree / agree, or rebuke this, please mention which section / sections you agree / disagree with. If rebuking this, please mention which specific section you're rebuking. Thank you.
Agree (3) - Vietthai, Planck69, ActuallySpaceMan42
This is a lengthy read dealing with various parts of Hi3 and HSR, being ever so slightly nitpicky while also covering topics like the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Scrolling up and rereading may be required to fully understand what's discussed as the AE VN can be pretty complicated at times.
Abbreviations that will be used:
IIE = Imaginary Internal Energy / Internal Imaginary Energy.
IE = Imaginary Energy.
HE = Honkai Energy.
AE VN = Anti-Entropy Visual Novel
All the scans are within this imagechest file. If you're having trouble reading them they'll be available in full size and quality here.
Summary:
This CRT will mainly be focused around removing Honkai Energy from HSR profiles through refining our understanding of Path Energies and what Imaginary Internal Energy (IIE) actually is in relation to Honkai Energy (HE).
It will have three main sections:
1. Disproving Imaginary Internal Energy (IIE) = Honkai Energy (HE)
2. Proving Imaginary Energy (IE) = Honkai Energy (HE)
3. Removing HE from Honkai: Star Rail.
Section 1 - What Imaginary Internal Energy is.
There are two notable sections that say IIE is HE within Hi3. These come in the Anti Entropy Visual Novel and a Part 1.5 optional readable called ‘Youyun’s Classroom’. We'll go through these one at a time.
Admittedly the arguments for why IIE isn't HE will seem weak at first. Once I go into what IIE is, it'll be more believable.
Here's the screenshot that is used to prove Imaginary Internal Energy is Honkai Energy.
However, once we bring up more context around the Anti-Entropy Visual Novel it contradicts this statement. The idea is called it a hypothesis (and should be treated as such). Further context goes into:
So, we know Tesla’s statement here isn’t entirely reliable and doesn’t prove IIE is HE. If you’re going off of Tesla’s statement alone to try and prove IIE = HE then the VN discredits this argument. It’s not a good piece of evidence.
Please note the mentions of the Second Law of Thermodynamics here. It’ll be important later. Small note of caution, you might need to reread the above scans when reading the below paragraphs.
Disproving scan 2.
This is the Part 1.5 Optional Readable.
Like the Anti-Entropy Visual Novel states, this is a hypothesis:
It discredits itself and says it’s a theory as well. Like I said, admittedly weak evidence against the relationship, but we can take context clues from the readable and the AE VN to prove what IIE actually is. Furthermore the evidence IE = HE is stronger, so stick with me for now.
What IIE actually is:
IIE is always discussed when concerning Honkai Energy’s relationship with Negentropy. Entropy, Negentropy and Real Internal Energy are core parts of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
You’ll notice this is talked about heavily in the Anti-Entropy Visual Novel (AE VN). Notice the similarities in phrase. ‘Real Internal Energy’ is an actual term coming from the Second Law of Thermodynamics. ‘Imaginary Internal Energy’ is an adaptation of 'Real Internal Energy' by the writers. (Real Internal Energy is the measure of total energy within any given system.)
Because these terms parallel each other we can say IIE describes the amount of Imaginary Energy within any given system.
From the AE VN long paragraph, paraphrasing. ‘Mathematically, the Imaginary Internal Energy belongs to the collapsing, convergent manifold… while four-dimensional space-time… contains the thermodynamic manifestation of the ‘real internal energy’... these can be… used to predict Honkai fluctuations at the sub-atomic scale.’
Put together with the statements they make about the Second Law: ‘if the entropy of a system decreases, it will cause the entropy of another system to rise by a greater margin.’
This constructs the idea that there's a relationship between 'Real Internal Energy' and 'Imaginary Internal Energy' - This relationship can be used to predict 'Honkai fluctuations'.
If you look at the Part 1.5 optional readable, this idea holds up. It elaborates upon negative entropy and the relationship between it and Internal Imaginary Energy, going into how this causes Honkai Events. The term 'Internal Imaginary Energy' is only brought up when discussing the Second Law of Thermodynamics and thus is an adaptation of 'Real Internal Energy'. IIE is the Imaginary Space’s equivalent of ‘Real Internal Energy’ and is the measure of how much Imaginary Energy is within any given system. The scan below even talks about if the Second Law of Thermodyanmics can constrain Honkai Energy 'on the Imaginary Side' - Imaginary Space.
Now we understand what IIE is, how the writers use the term and how everything relating it and HE are in-lore hypothesise. We now know IIE is more likely just an adaptation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics for Imaginary Space. IIE is the measure of Imaginary Energy within any given system.
Section 2 - Honkai Energy is Imaginary Energy.
This is how Sa, Hare and Griseo discuss the Intertidal Zones, simply put areas containing large quantities of Imaginary Energy. Sa calls them Imaginary Energy tidal zones, Griseo and Misteln (Hare) calls them Honkai Energy tidal zones or Honkai Energy Belts.
Simply put, Sa, Griseo and Hare are referring to the same object here, though with their own knowledge, they describe it as Honkai Energy AND Imaginary Energy. This insinuates they're the same energy.
Furthermore the Part 1.5 HSR Hi3 collab calls the Imaginary intertidal zones 'Honkai Energy Intertidal Zones' - It's pretty blatant Imaginary Energy is HE.
The Dudu VN further states there’s a relationship between Negentropy and Imaginary Energy and that Imaginary Energy is Honkai Energy.
I believe this is enough to conclusively prove Imaginary Energy is Honkai Energy. In this way Imaginary Internal Energy is simply the measurement of Honkai Energy in any given system. Saying a character uses IIE isn't enough to give them hax.
Section 3 - How does HSR come into this?
In Welt’s ‘About the Paths’ dialogue on the Astral Express.
Aeons have control over a particular subset of Imaginary Energy. The part they take is called a Path - ‘an Aeon will completely take over this part of the Imaginary’ - Welt specifies part. Not whole.
Paths have their own individual energies. In the Irontomb fight, Herta blatantly talks about there being a ‘Path Energy Anomaly’ and Screwllum talks about ‘anomalies’ on a ‘Path chart’ - This implies each Path’s individual energy can be charted. We know Irontomb only uses Destruction Path Energy and he uses it to target the Erudition.
(Even if you take issues with this because of the current inaccurate scaling of Irontomb having all Paths due to various Pathstriders being in the Scepter, it's not too relevant and the following should prove Paths are subsets of Imaginary Energy, which is the main argument here).
To further back the idea that each Path has its own individual energy, lets go into where they talk about IIE in Honkai Star Rail.
The World-Cleansing Blood scan talks about ‘Imaginary Internal Energy aggregate’ and specifically mentions its ‘nature’ being similar to an ‘Emanator of Destruction’.
Imaginary Internal Energy CANNOT be Destruction Path Energy because it’s also used to describe the energy left behind by a Stellaron’s explosion. The Stellarons are products of Xipe, the Aeon of Harmony, not the Destruction. (See below) Therefore Stellarons must be made of Harmony Path Energy as we know from Welt's conversation that Aeons can only control their respective subset of Imaginary Energy.
With this we can understand that Imaginary Internal Energy can have its own specific nature. Nature refers to the Path of the specific Imaginary Internal Energy, which as we touched on, is just Imaginary Energy within any given system. This further backs up Welt’s statement that Aeons only take up part of the Imaginary.
At this point we know the varying Path Energies are just smaller parts of their respective whole. The whole is Imaginary Energy, or Honkai Energy.
In this way, calling all Path Energy users ‘Imaginary Energy users’ is not entirely wrong. They’re using Imaginary Energy (Honkai Energy) for their abilities, they just only have access to a smaller spectrum of it, this being the smaller part their respective Aeon took over and allows them to use. The game referring to a character as an 'Imaginary Energy user' isn't a counterargument here. It's not wrong, but it's not fully right.
This further fits with all Paths having different abilities despite being made of the same, whole, energy source. Calling a character a ‘Imaginary Energy user’ isn’t entirely correct. It’s an oversimplification and doesn’t respect that these Pathstriders don’t have access to other Path’s abilities, much like Lord Ravagers don’t have access to ALL other Path’s abilities. This means they don’t use the full spectrum of Imaginary Energy and shouldn’t be granted Honkai Manipulation, but we know their power is still Imaginary Energy, thus it's not entirely wrong either.
In conclusion:
- Statements of Honkai Energy being IIE and Nanook / Xipe wielding IIE shouldn’t give their followers Honkai Energy. Honkai Energy is Imaginary Energy and Aeons control their own individual subset of Imaginary Energy. Honkai Energy / Imaginary Energy is the whole. Nobody in HSR has been shown to be able to manipulate the whole, calling them Imaginary Energy users isn’t wrong but isn’t entirely accurate (as they only have access to a subset of Imaginary Energy) and thus can't be used as a counterargument.
- Pathstriders and anyone above them (Emanators, Aeons) will have what's listed under standard effects: this being IM and NPI.
- Emanators will have resistances to all standard effects universally through resisting the Intertidal Zones (made of IE) without being effected by Honkai Corruption. Pathstriders will not have this. Emanators will not have Low / High level HE Manip.
- Aeons will be stuck with a 'possibly High Level' Honkai manip rating.
- This CRT has no effect on anyone’s ratings. It means Honkai Energy manipulation should be removed from all HSR profiles other than Welt’s. Nor will any Hax from paths be added to Hi3 profiles, they'd need to demonstrate it to have it.
- Lord Ravager-Level Honkai Manipulation should be removed from the Honkai Energy page and placed somewhere else. I'm open for taking suggestions to where it should be placed. Either it should have its own area in the Destruction Path Energy page or each of the abilities that make up ‘Lord Ravager-Level Honkai Manipulation’ should be put in the profiles they're applicable to.
I advise each ability should only go to its specific Lord Ravager. If each ability here is improperly given to every Lord Ravager I will make a 2nd CRT going into how Lord Ravagers are mainly double Emanators (or at least Pathstriders) and how they all shouldn’t have each other’s abilities. There’s nothing to suggest Archforger has Celenova’s Reality Warping and Spatial Manipulation, for example. Yes, I am aware the Destruction Path has every path's abilities from the Scepter and Irontomb, yes, a CRT regarding this will be made.
- In addition the Honkai Energy page will get a note regarding this CRT that Imaginary Energy is Honkai Energy. This’ll be elaborated more upon when a reworked Honkai Energy page is made.
Request:
If you're going to disagree / agree, or rebuke this, please mention which section / sections you agree / disagree with. If rebuking this, please mention which specific section you're rebuking. Thank you.
Agree (3) - Vietthai, Planck69, ActuallySpaceMan42
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