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(3 staffs agreed) The Auditor's profile revamp + explanation of the fundamental Logic in the series (Madness Combat)
- Thread starter Employe
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CitRusReality64
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Then it would be limited layered incorporeality. That just means Jebs and Hank can interact with incorporeal stuff, and we know that The Auditor's layered phasing isn't passive.
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Thanks, this is a much easier OP to assess now! Most of this is good, so I'll single out just the points i find iffy or just want to specify some things on.
Abstract Existence. Seems pretty plausible, though I would snip out "Consistently shown travelling [etc]" since that's more relevant to a dimensional travel ability point.
Nonexistent Physiology. Lacking a soul & such can be haxxy but doesn't equate to NEP in itself. I don't think the "essence" bit is specific enough, either. And while The Auditor is an abstract byproduct of The Machine's code/logic, that doesn't necessarily equate to him having all the traits that The Machine does. Like how software doesn't have all the traits of hardware.
High-Godly Regen. This is also a puzzle, would like more input from others on this especially. So all we really see at the end of MC10 when Tricky is absorbed & begins to possess the Auditor's avatar body is an explosion with a big smoke cloud. If anything, the MC11 intro suggests the body was just liquified & reformed, as opposed to Low-Godly erased, much less High-Godly erased even if Tricky's Dissonance and the incompatibility of the Halo itself could have been attacking on some fundamental levels. It's like if someone hacked your social media account & you got access back after you empowered & hired Hank to kill the hacker; that doesn't mean your real self or even your account stopped existing in the meantime & was reformed afterward, just that you had to wait until you got rid of the hijacker.
Absorption on the first key. He doesn't display it until getting the Halo iirc, but your descriptions of the properties themselves are solid.
Fate Manipulation & Causality Manipulation for the last key. That first bit could be as simple as assigning jobs to people, but the latter does sound pretty esoteric. I probably agree overall.
Immeasurable speed justifications for the true higher form. I defer to others more up to speed, no pun intended, with VSB standards. It's probably good based on statements, though.
The rest of the Auditor proposals look good to me! I'll check this thread every now & then in upcoming days to see if anyone has something I missed or is just confused.
Abstract Existence. Seems pretty plausible, though I would snip out "Consistently shown travelling [etc]" since that's more relevant to a dimensional travel ability point.
Nonexistent Physiology. Lacking a soul & such can be haxxy but doesn't equate to NEP in itself. I don't think the "essence" bit is specific enough, either. And while The Auditor is an abstract byproduct of The Machine's code/logic, that doesn't necessarily equate to him having all the traits that The Machine does. Like how software doesn't have all the traits of hardware.
High-Godly Regen. This is also a puzzle, would like more input from others on this especially. So all we really see at the end of MC10 when Tricky is absorbed & begins to possess the Auditor's avatar body is an explosion with a big smoke cloud. If anything, the MC11 intro suggests the body was just liquified & reformed, as opposed to Low-Godly erased, much less High-Godly erased even if Tricky's Dissonance and the incompatibility of the Halo itself could have been attacking on some fundamental levels. It's like if someone hacked your social media account & you got access back after you empowered & hired Hank to kill the hacker; that doesn't mean your real self or even your account stopped existing in the meantime & was reformed afterward, just that you had to wait until you got rid of the hijacker.
Absorption on the first key. He doesn't display it until getting the Halo iirc, but your descriptions of the properties themselves are solid.
Fate Manipulation & Causality Manipulation for the last key. That first bit could be as simple as assigning jobs to people, but the latter does sound pretty esoteric. I probably agree overall.
Immeasurable speed justifications for the true higher form. I defer to others more up to speed, no pun intended, with VSB standards. It's probably good based on statements, though.
The rest of the Auditor proposals look good to me! I'll check this thread every now & then in upcoming days to see if anyone has something I missed or is just confused.
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Honestly, the main reason I gave to him NEP 3 is because he is supposedly made from the raw fabric logic on which The Machine runs and in Madness universe defines both existence and non-existence simultaneously. The Auditor even kinda displays parameters of this type of NEP
Otherwise thank you for input
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Lowkey shouldn't The Auditor have Holy Manipulation due to being an angel and god (both at the same time)? Also wouldn't logic have it due to creating both The Auditor and The Machine who is also a sort of god? Cyber Bandits after being infused with Prime Code apparently even call themselves as Angels + they have the whole religion that iirc revolves around The Machine and its gear (including having shrines and such)?
SomebodyData
Waiting for Walpurgisnacht Rising and Metroid 6...
VS Battles
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I can see that quite a few revisions have been done to the OP; as it stands right now, I have no issue with the upgrades listed.
That said, Minor Matter Creation should just be replaced with Weapon Creation
That said, Minor Matter Creation should just be replaced with Weapon Creation
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Thank you, I will remove it
By the way, you are agree with both the profile and blog?
SomebodyData
Waiting for Walpurgisnacht Rising and Metroid 6...
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Ye
Yeah, everything seems to properly justified
Yeah, everything seems to properly justified
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Nice
CitRusReality64
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Thanx for giving input
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Starting with formatting errors:
This is not correct formatting. Put it like:
Should be:
Should be
Things like "and" between Abilities (i.e., Statistics Amplification and Power Bestowal) aren't supposed to be bolded
Put a closing brace ) for the Immeasurable speed rating before the ", Omnipresent"
Statistics Values should be before the closing brace, not after the rating itself.
From
In many sections, one being stamina, you put reference after dot (.), it is supposed to come before it.
If it is the last line, there shouldn't be a . Before the closing braces. Like in the intelligence section
I don't think you need a reference for the "Origin" section powers and stats, unless you have a special situation, which I'm assuming you do?
Note: most of what I pointed out is based on well formatted profiles I read. Some of what I said may be wrong, so asking for a content mod to check it would be helpful
now moving on to checking the ratings themselves. I will first check the sandbox for the "Logic" stuff:
So far, I did see qualifying texts for The Machine to be Information (Type 2), but I don't think it is a Concept as well.
There's this scan about it being a much grander concept:
But in my opinion it's likely referring to it as "the City we're trying to build is a much more grand concept than you think", essentially referring to it as an idea that can be thought of, not a literal concept.
I also don't see how it's NEP2. It just seems like NEP1 has a lot of aspects to me.
I also don't think it's Paraconsistent. It's behind everything, yes, the container of everything, it is contrary to everything. It is nonexistent, not both existent and nonexistent
Even if it were to be that, it would not be Type 2 of Paraconsistent Physiology but Type 1.
I could at best see it being:
Since I'm against it being a concept, I'm also against it being type 1 on the basis that it's not a concept to begin with
The Auditor being an information entity is fine.
The main evidence of the Employers being concepts stems from the author's live streams and the answers to some questions. But those questions seem very, very heavily leading.
Just take this as an example:
This is very obviously a leading question related to powerscaling. We ban the usage and even the asking of leading questions to the author on this site.
"Logic" here also seems like just Laws to me. Stripping away logic based on that scan seems like it's about reversing what something is.
So again, going to the Abilities section on the logic section; I disagree with conceptual manipulation.
Dimensional Manipulation also doesn't have sufficient proof. It's just space time manipulation.
I also disagree with NEP2 and Paraconsistent Physiology as a whole. NEP1 is sufficient for this.
Now that that is out of the way, I'll check the profile itself.
I disagree with the Abstract Existence on Concepts and Mathematics. Also put either History or Narrative. Both feel redundant here.
I also disagree with Abstract Existence on information. It just seems like something is happening to his code, not that he can exist purely as a code. Just because someone manipulates the code of character X or character X's code becomes glitchy, doesn't magically mean they exist as pure information and think as such. This is supported by the description of Auditor's Intangibility rating.
I also disagree with NEP3 and Paraconsistent Physiology Type 2 that are there on the basis of NEP2.
The description for the immortality rating on the immediate page also only talks about Type 2, 3 and 4. I don't see type 5 and 9.
I assume you're using the idea of him being constructed from Logic as the proof, but that needs to be on the immortality description specifically.
The Immortality negation relies on Tricky, whose profile doesn't have scans. Well, that doesn't help, so I'll be neutral on type 4, 8 and 9 negation. There's no type 2 or 3 negation here as he just seems to be destroying them beyond a point they can regenerate from. I also don't even see how Tricky has Type 2 based on his description alone.
Moving on to his 3rd sub-key:
I'm not sure if the Transmutation fits. There's no evidence that he himself cussed the Sun to turn into that, or if the Sun (or well, the show itself) just has some toon force they allowed it to become a person.
That would be all from me. If I didn't comment on something, it means I agree with it.
This is not correct formatting. Put it like:
Should be:
Should be
In immortality and in general, you aren't supposed to bold the punctuation (like comma, semi colon, dot, -, etc.)
Should be
Or just
And link the True Flight to the Flight page
To
Things like "and" between Abilities (i.e., Statistics Amplification and Power Bestowal) aren't supposed to be bolded
Put a closing brace ) for the Immeasurable speed rating before the ", Omnipresent"
Statistics Values should be before the closing brace, not after the rating itself.
From
To
In many sections, one being stamina, you put reference after dot (.), it is supposed to come before it.
If it is the last line, there shouldn't be a . Before the closing braces. Like in the intelligence section
I don't think you need a reference for the "Origin" section powers and stats, unless you have a special situation, which I'm assuming you do?
Note: most of what I pointed out is based on well formatted profiles I read. Some of what I said may be wrong, so asking for a content mod to check it would be helpful
now moving on to checking the ratings themselves. I will first check the sandbox for the "Logic" stuff:
So far, I did see qualifying texts for The Machine to be Information (Type 2), but I don't think it is a Concept as well.
There's this scan about it being a much grander concept:
But in my opinion it's likely referring to it as "the City we're trying to build is a much more grand concept than you think", essentially referring to it as an idea that can be thought of, not a literal concept.
I also don't see how it's NEP2. It just seems like NEP1 has a lot of aspects to me.
I also don't think it's Paraconsistent. It's behind everything, yes, the container of everything, it is contrary to everything. It is nonexistent, not both existent and nonexistent
Even if it were to be that, it would not be Type 2 of Paraconsistent Physiology but Type 1.
I could at best see it being:
Since I'm against it being a concept, I'm also against it being type 1 on the basis that it's not a concept to begin with
The Auditor being an information entity is fine.
The main evidence of the Employers being concepts stems from the author's live streams and the answers to some questions. But those questions seem very, very heavily leading.
Just take this as an example:
This is very obviously a leading question related to powerscaling. We ban the usage and even the asking of leading questions to the author on this site.
"Logic" here also seems like just Laws to me. Stripping away logic based on that scan seems like it's about reversing what something is.
So again, going to the Abilities section on the logic section; I disagree with conceptual manipulation.
Dimensional Manipulation also doesn't have sufficient proof. It's just space time manipulation.
I also disagree with NEP2 and Paraconsistent Physiology as a whole. NEP1 is sufficient for this.
Now that that is out of the way, I'll check the profile itself.
I disagree with the Abstract Existence on Concepts and Mathematics. Also put either History or Narrative. Both feel redundant here.
I also disagree with Abstract Existence on information. It just seems like something is happening to his code, not that he can exist purely as a code. Just because someone manipulates the code of character X or character X's code becomes glitchy, doesn't magically mean they exist as pure information and think as such. This is supported by the description of Auditor's Intangibility rating.
I also disagree with NEP3 and Paraconsistent Physiology Type 2 that are there on the basis of NEP2.
The description for the immortality rating on the immediate page also only talks about Type 2, 3 and 4. I don't see type 5 and 9.
I assume you're using the idea of him being constructed from Logic as the proof, but that needs to be on the immortality description specifically.
The Immortality negation relies on Tricky, whose profile doesn't have scans. Well, that doesn't help, so I'll be neutral on type 4, 8 and 9 negation. There's no type 2 or 3 negation here as he just seems to be destroying them beyond a point they can regenerate from. I also don't even see how Tricky has Type 2 based on his description alone.
Moving on to his 3rd sub-key:
I'm not sure if the Transmutation fits. There's no evidence that he himself cussed the Sun to turn into that, or if the Sun (or well, the show itself) just has some toon force they allowed it to become a person.
That would be all from me. If I didn't comment on something, it means I agree with it.
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Thanks for the detailed response! I think I largely agree, but I can shed a bit more detail on some of this soon even as Employe & company probably have as much if not more to say than I do. In the meantime, could you put the part of your post regarding formatting in a spoiler box, just for neatness's sake?
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The sun is not doing that on its own, sheriff activating the improbability drive here lead to said events and all wacky nonsense that happened afterwords.
Otherwise, yeah I largely agree with what you said.
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I think Employe suggests Type 5 overlapping from the abstract made-of-logic etc stuff. Type 9 is standard avatar respawn stuff, though there should be a citation for that.
No scans since pretty much everything is displayed in one nine-minute video, Madness Combat 11, in which Tricky just won't die via numerous means of no-selling & coming back constantly until the Auditor gives Hank some upgrades to put him down. One demonstration of Type 2 for Tricky (and probably negation by the Auditor etc by extension) is when he no-sells Hank chopping off & emptying a huge chunk of his head in MC5, as well as surviving being shot in the face and impaled in previous eps & being a zombie thing overall.
[Ninja'd by Comi but posting anyway.] The weird stuff with the sun is definitely a result of the Improbability Drive. The link in the profiles is timestamped to the event itself, but if you go back just a minute or so you see the weird stuff happens as a result of the ID being activated; it doesn't usually rain whales & marshmallows in Madness. Incidentally, this isn't the same as transmutation, but the Auditor does make out of thin air a new cyborg arm Mag-Hank's missing organic arm in MC11 & deconstruct targets that don't resist Dissonance frequently.
Gonna wait for Employe & do more research for myself before commenting at length on the more esoteric stuff. I think some of it is a matter of how we want to define "constructed from the very fabric of logic itself" but OP Employe has Project Nexus fresher on the mind than I do.
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Hello! Glad that someone finally decided to actually analyze and respond on my blogs and stuff with justifications. Thank you for your effort!
(I will obviously skip the formating part since I basically have nothing to say here)
The Nowhere itself is also described to be somehow paradoxal: it doesn't exist but also all forgotten things and untold stories end up here (as if they were real) alongside with it being a realm from whence all reality began and where "stayed" all things that weren't shaped into existence
Also, prior this question the author already revealed that Employers are concepts which is a reason why someone asked this question in the first place
I can completely take down WoG anyway
9 is based of the fact that The Auditor IS a dimension, it is literally his body, this is why after he absorbed Tricky and Tricky was causing chaos in his realm The Auditor was saying "HE CAN'T BE INSIDE ME" on of posters, there is also other things like it being called "Auditor.hell"
(I will obviously skip the formating part since I basically have nothing to say here)
The reason why it should qualify for concept sterms from the fact it is an universal force that defines all other abstract (and not only) facets of existence (i.e space-time, narrative, fate, matter, alive creatures), while also being able to exist independently in the domain of nothingness which erases everyone and everything out of existence (it was going to devour Nevada as well), to the point of narrative, which should fill the requirement of being an abstract platonic concept that shapes reality anf abstractions but doesn't rely on said reality to exist (most notably narrative) and goes past simple fundamental information
I agree it doesn't tell to us much on its own, but I think it is fair to be mentioned as a sort of additional evidence
The Nowhere is said to be a place where narrative (alongside reality) doesn't exist which is one of fundamental forces, shouldn't this qualify or are only concepts specifically required to be non-existent for NEP 2? As for NEP 3 this is due to fact that The Machine governs all to be there, which includes both existence and non-existence, hence it is paradoxal.
The Nowhere itself is also described to be somehow paradoxal: it doesn't exist but also all forgotten things and untold stories end up here (as if they were real) alongside with it being a realm from whence all reality began and where "stayed" all things that weren't shaped into existence
Already replied
Fair, though I want to clarify that main evidence for concept is them being creatures from the very fabric of logic with these statements being more of additional proofs meant to show author's intent
Also, prior this question the author already revealed that Employers are concepts which is a reason why someone asked this question in the first place
I can completely take down WoG anyway
I suppose we can add law manipulation?
Said my point above
Fair
Why mathematics?
He is a creature constructed from the very fabric of logic which is primary reason on why he received AE, besides didn't you agree with him being an informational entity prior?
Replied
9 is based of the fact that The Auditor IS a dimension, it is literally his body, this is why after he absorbed Tricky and Tricky was causing chaos in his realm The Auditor was saying "HE CAN'T BE INSIDE ME" on of posters, there is also other things like it being called "Auditor.hell"
Tricky was shown to survive things that would instantly kill a normal person (mainly having major parts of skull and body completely destroyed) and later managed to seemingly regenerate his body
In the context of scene it happens specifically after drive was activated which was evidently shown to mess up reality as a whole, while yes Madness is a silly series, there is no reasons whatsoever to think that it happened simply by itself and not due to drive, especially with how we see series when drive isn't activated
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I will do that (not now)
That is fine then
You could also put Toon Force for Improbability Drive
I will read your replies tomorrow.
I am currently unavailable.
I apologize.
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Abstract Existence does not give Immortality type 5 by default. Yes you can't kill something like Logic by traditional means, but that's not the purpose of Type 5 immortality. It's for cases where it is explicitly said that the user is beyond/outside Death in some way canonically.
And I can see Type 9 then, but yes it needs a wording for it in the description.
I assume the video link is referring to the character getting impaled by a road sign. That should be enough for type 2 immortality
But I don't think it gives the Auditor type 2 negation, since killing someone by damaging them beyond the point they can stay alive isn't type 2 negation.
Take for example character A and B. Character A can survive being shot in the heart, getting his head chopped off (he can reattach it), etc. character B kills him by destroying his brain and all internal organs. That's not type negation.
But if character B kills character A by ripping his head off or impaling him, when character A should have clearly stayed alive in those scenarios, that's type 2 negation.
Same with regeneration.
That is fine then
Governing something doesn't always result in that aspect being a Concept. Practically every single fundamental aspect in vsbw (History, Narrative, Information, Concept, Logic) governs reality in one way or another.
What makes an in-verse aspect one specific and not the other is names dropping. If it's called a concept, we treat it as such, if it's called information, we treat it as such.
Governing the narrative doesn't make it platonic too btw (to be fair, platonic concepts, if fully explained in a verse, are 1-A or higher)
There's nothing stopping information from being a more fundamental aspect than narrative in a verse. Take a game verse for example, where everything is in a game. The plot can be the narrative of the game that decides the direction of past and future, but the information can be what makes up everything, even the narrative.
Information being independent also isn't something new. If I'm in a game where I can destroy everything, that doesn't actually destroy the code, it only destroys the things that the code defines.
The only thing it can be evidence for would be that it has a big scope (it governs multiple things), I guess.
Narrative would just be an additional fundamental aspect (Type 5). And no, even lacking the concept of existence isn't defaulted to NEP2.
It would only be NEP2 if the aspect you're lacking is also, in its own way, nonexistent.
So for example, lacking the concept of nothingness in a way that it doesn't stem from lacking additional aspects than the concept of nothingness, is NEP2.
If however that is done by having additional aspects (since a Void that lacks aspect 2 and 4 is technically "more" nonexistent than a Void that only lacks one of those aspects but not both)
I don't really see any evidence for the Machine governing nonexistence. The only thing that comes close is The Machine being the same thing/one with the Nowhere, but that would just mean it itself is nonexistent while governing existent things.
The "untold stories" quite literally just means those stories don't exist yet or have ceases to exist, thus returning to the nowhere. That isn't exactly paradoxical to the nature of NEP1. It being a realm where everything began also isn't enough for NEP3, unless it is one with existence itself rather than just governing it (as the Machine). At best this would mean the Machine's nonexistent is also qualifiable for Chaos Manipulation (which you already gave it).
being made from the fabric of logic isn't really a "concept". It can just about be anything, information, concept, narrative, or any other Fundamental aspect.
As I said earlier, what matters is the names dropping of terms to determine which one we use.
Yes, it's better to take down this type of WoG. On the other hand, if the author stated they are concepts without actually anyone asking them about it, that would be far better evidence. You can use that one.
Yes
While I agree that the Machine can define it or that it's one of the things it defines, that doesn't grant the Auditor abstract existence on that by default.
It's the same as why we don't give the Auditor abstract existence on Fate/Space/Time even though the machine defines them.
It would need to be proven that the Auditor is specifically a Mathematical construct for him to be qualified for it.
And that reminds me, you could give the Machine beyond-dimensional existence (type 1) as Space time is Navada which the Machine/Nowhere is contrary to/lacks.
That is fine then
Then tricky's own rating should be fine. But it wouldn't be type 2 negation for the reasons I explained to Freeman above
Should be fine
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Fair then, but wouldn't this information be equalized with concepts type 1 in other verses in the case their mechanisms are similar due to metaphysics equalization rule (universal things that define all of existence including space-time and stuff but can exist independently)?
Understandable, but now I have confidence that some other characters and powers from this series might qualify for NEP 2 instead
It our context logic is the same as information (which makes up everything), the point of my blog is about this
Alright, but this is work for a completely different thread
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CitRusReality64
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The Machine has R>F, so it would be Type 3 actually. I think this could support in a type 3 rating, though.
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The machine and the maker are their OWN BATTLES that will destroy this CRT inside out.
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Basically agree with Raiki; once the OP is updated we should be good to go.
Although perhaps the Auditor's profile could use some more explanation on what his being a dimension and all that even means: it's very esoteric. Still gotta check Project Nexus for more detail, but it's my understanding that there's a higher-plane 5D Auditor, then there's the 8-A Auditor we see boxing Hank and company who is an avatar, and that avatar contains or is a portal to that hell universe in which he can also manifest avatars and otherwise influence to degrees. Check me on that & make sure the profile has a good explanation whatever the case may be.
Derailing a bit but I don't think making The Machine & The Maker 1-A will be a huge deal (when I bump the thread that fizzled out mainly due to the OP not having all the detail it has now when it was first posted), at least not more than these things usually are. But one thing at a time. Maybe some detail in the Auditor's profile about his relation to the Machine -- being a subroutine created to do its will in its fiction/planes beneath it -- would be a good idea now while we're at it, too.
Although perhaps the Auditor's profile could use some more explanation on what his being a dimension and all that even means: it's very esoteric. Still gotta check Project Nexus for more detail, but it's my understanding that there's a higher-plane 5D Auditor, then there's the 8-A Auditor we see boxing Hank and company who is an avatar, and that avatar contains or is a portal to that hell universe in which he can also manifest avatars and otherwise influence to degrees. Check me on that & make sure the profile has a good explanation whatever the case may be.
Derailing a bit but I don't think making The Machine & The Maker 1-A will be a huge deal (when I bump the thread that fizzled out mainly due to the OP not having all the detail it has now when it was first posted), at least not more than these things usually are. But one thing at a time. Maybe some detail in the Auditor's profile about his relation to the Machine -- being a subroutine created to do its will in its fiction/planes beneath it -- would be a good idea now while we're at it, too.
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Hello again. I now tried to fix all issues and changed/added some things (for both the profile and blog), mind you to evaluate again, please?
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Blog on Logic
The WoG having leading questions wasn't removed.
You could add more aspects to NEP as I said earlier. If Nowhere is contrary to existence, and existence has aspects like Fate, History, Space-Time, Causality then you can add those aspects to NEP.
Profile
Some of the formatting mistakes are still there. The abilities themselves seem fine now
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Alright, I will purge WoG completely, it is just a burden there
Mind to explain what are exact mistakes?
Thank you very much for evaluating!
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