God of War CRT: Scaling Overhaul Part 1

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Having read over the arguments throughout the thread, I flip-flopped in particular with the Thanatos side of things, as everything else I find Planck and Pepsiman reasonable. On one hand, if we default that every Primordial is automatically above Zeus, that puts this fight in question. But on the other, Kratos has shown to have sudden growths in power depending on his rage, as Glass has brought. So we at least do have a mechanism that explains how he could go from struggling against an unserious Thanatos, to growing enough to kill him while enraged. This would also fit with the story, where Zeus started fearing that he would one day attempt to usurped him, specially after seeing him managing to kill Thanatos despite not growing fully into his godhood yet. When you have something so intertwined with the plot, treating it as an outlier becomes kinda iffy to me.

The obvious solution is that not every Primordial is above Zeus and they can have low points as much as high points to their strength, but that's seemingly not an option? (Even after reading the thread, I still don't see why, but meh)

So I guess my vote is weird, in that I don't think this particular fight should be treated as an outlier, but I agree with everything else with Planck and Pepsiman. Which I suppose it's not entirely helpful given the conclusions being reached but it is what it is

 

[Planck69]

Having read over the arguments throughout the thread, I flip-flopped in particular with the Thanatos side of things, as everything else I find Planck and Pepsiman reasonable. On one hand, if we default that every Primordial is automatically above Zeus, that puts this fight in question. But on the other, Kratos has shown to have sudden growths in power depending on his rage, as Glass has brought. So we at least do have a mechanism that explains how he could go from struggling against an unserious Thanatos, to growing enough to kill him while enraged. This would also fit with the story, where Zeus started fearing that he would one day attempt to usurped him, specially after seeing him managing to kill Thanatos despite not growing fully into his godhood yet. When you have something so intertwined with the plot, treating it as an outlier becomes kinda iffy to me.

The obvious solution is that not every Primordial is above Zeus and they can have low points as much as high points to their strength, but that's seemingly not an option? (Even after reading the thread, I still don't see why, but meh)

So I guess my vote is weird, in that I don't think this particular fight should be treated as an outlier, but I agree with everything else with Planck and Pepsiman. Which I suppose it's not entirely helpful given the conclusions being reached but it is what it is

Both sides agree on the comparable scaling for Primordials, which is what makes it weird, yeah.

Having spent some time on it and seeing everyone's stances I can take a step back on the fight with Thanatos being an outlier and just attribute it to his Rage specifically (not sure how I'll put it on his profile given it was a one-off or if I even should). I stay the same in my stance regarding the rest.

 

[Theglassman12]

You can just say his stats get higher with rage, it’s not that hard to explain given it’s literally a story and gameplay mechanic for Kratos’ power

 

[Planck69]

Bump

 

[Planck69]

@FinePoint @SomebodyData @Mr._Propeller_Hat @Just a Random Butler

We need more votes (cause somehow this is the most controversial GoW thread in years lol). Below is the post with the summaries (KLOL's first post is linked 2 posts below it).

Honestly, we've circled around this topic long enough. I'll just call more staff to vote.


Here are our main points, though feel free to read beyond this point. We need more evaluation for the thread to conclude.

 

[FinePoint]

@FinePoint @SomebodyData @Mr._Propeller_Hat @Just a Random Butler

We need more votes (cause somehow this is the most controversial GoW thread in years lol). Below is the post with the summaries (KLOL's first post is linked 2 posts below it).

I've only played the remakes.

Is there enough information here for me to form an informed opinion anyway?

 

[Planck69]

I've only played the remakes.

Didn't know they were out already

Is there enough information here for me to form an informed opinion anyway?

Yes. I'd also recommend looking at Pepsiman's post a few ways below the linked one above since it details Poseidon's fight with Gaia pretty well (as that's the only remaining point of contention).

 

[FinePoint]

Didn't know they were out already

I meant the Norse games, lol.

Yes. I'd also recommend looking at Pepsiman's post a few ways below the linked one above since it details Poseidon's fight with Gaia pretty well (as that's the only remaining point of contention).

I'm guessing the contention is whether or not this disproves the Primordials are above the gods?

 

[Planck69]

I meant the Norse games, lol.

I'm guessing the contention is whether or not this disproves the Primordials are above the gods?

Essentially, yes.

 

[KLOL506]

I meant the Norse games, lol.

I'm guessing the contention is whether or not this disproves the Primordials are above the gods?

Pretty much.

I'd also recommend looking at my comments and responses.

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[FinePoint]

Well, to me it seems like this fight portrays Gaia as superior to Poseidon in terms of raw strength, but quite a bit clumsier, slower, and less versatile.

I don't exactly know what gap is being posited here, but just the fight reads to me as they're meant to be comparable in different aspects, rather than Gaia being overall superior in some fundamental way like say how a god is superior to a mortal.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, to me it seems like this fight portrays Gaia as superior to Poseidon in terms of raw strength, but quite a bit clumsier, slower, and less versatile.

I don't exactly know what gap is being posited here, but just the fight reads to me as they're meant to be comparable in different aspects, rather than Gaia being overall superior in some fundamental way like say how a god is superior to a mortal.

A strength gap, which I argued was dubious as per my previous comments.

 

[Planck69]

Well, to me it seems like this fight portrays Gaia as superior to Poseidon in terms of raw strength, but quite a bit clumsier, slower, and less versatile.

I don't exactly know what gap is being posited here, but just the fight reads to me as they're meant to be comparable in different aspects, rather than Gaia being overall superior in some fundamental way like say how a god is superior to a mortal.

That is fine, the proposal isn't that the Primordials are existentially beyond all other generation of gods but that they're the strongest in raw power. As Ouranos shows, that alone doesn't make them invincible.

 

[FinePoint]

That is fine, the proposal isn't that the Primordials are existentially beyond all other generation of gods but that they're the strongest in raw power. As Ouranos shows, that alone doesn't make them invincible.

Okay. In that case, I agree. They seem literally stronger, despite their other combat flaws.

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[Hellbeast]

You can just say his stats get higher with rage, it’s not that hard to explain given it’s literally a story and gameplay mechanic for Kratos’ power

Plus he already has rage power iirc so this makes no sense not to include

If the current proposal doesn't go through then I can entertain just making the Primordials variable (even if all but 2 of them will still be stronger than Zeus anyways). Thoughts on this?

So just to clarify, this would imagine the Primordials as not all being > Zeus

None of this means anything for durability. Not being able to defend against something doesn't decrease your durability by magnitudes.

Especially when, as I believe I shared earlier, we have statements showcasing Gaia was in mortal peril here

But either way, I’ve been sadly inactive here due to a few hassles, where do we stand with the debate thus far in terms of options and votes?

 

[KLOL506]

I've been keeping track of votes in a previous page, now we're just waiting for more people to vote on all the conclusions we just made. That's all that's left to do.

Me personally, I still retain my position of being strongly against the fight against Thanatos being an outlier (Or Kratos as a partial God not being comparable) as well as being starkly against Primordials as a whole being > Brother Kings, let alone Zeus. And I'm not budging one bit on that. But I'm not real staff so what I say is meaningless.

 

[Planck69]

Plus he already has rage power iirc so this makes no sense not to include

So just to clarify, this would imagine the Primordials as not all being > Zeus

Especially when, as I believe I shared earlier, we have statements showcasing Gaia was in mortal peril here

But either way, I’ve been sadly inactive here due to a few hassles, where do we stand with the debate thus far in terms of options and votes?

OP has the new stances. Currently, outlier has been summarily rejected, and Primordials > Zeus is ahead by 1 vote. It'd need 2 more to pass (or 4 more for the opposite to pass).

 

[Hellbeast]

OP has the new stances. Currently, outlier has been summarily rejected, and Primordials > Zeus is ahead by 1 vote. It'd need 2 more to pass (or 4 more for the opposite to pass).

Ah so Thanatos being an outlier has been rejected then and now we’re debating the idea of Primordials being > Zeus as a whole? I see

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump


@Dalesean027 @UchihaSlayer96 @AbaddonTheDisappointment @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Nierre @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000 @Just a Random Butler Your input here would be appreciated. All the main arguments are below:

God of War CRT: Scaling Overhaul Part 1

Introduction So, this is another revision prompted by new information in Sons of Sparta. This time we will be tackling and overhauling the current scaling of the Greek Gods. Primordials As it currently stands, Cronos and the other Titans generally scale over the Primordials based on Cronos...

vsbattles.com

God of War CRT: Scaling Overhaul Part 1

There's no circular scaling to be had in the first place given the feats. Especially considering what GoW3 Zeus does to both Kratos and Gaia simultaneously with a singular charged bolt (Even the domain argument doesn't really hold up considering Zeus has several other charged attacks in his boss...

vsbattles.com

God of War CRT: Scaling Overhaul Part 1

There's no circular scaling to be had in the first place given the feats. Especially considering what GoW3 Zeus does to both Kratos and Gaia simultaneously with a singular charged bolt (Even the domain argument doesn't really hold up considering Zeus has several other charged attacks in his boss...

vsbattles.com

God of War CRT: Scaling Overhaul Part 1

There's no circular scaling to be had in the first place given the feats. Especially considering what GoW3 Zeus does to both Kratos and Gaia simultaneously with a singular charged bolt (Even the domain argument doesn't really hold up considering Zeus has several other charged attacks in his boss...

vsbattles.com

 

[KLOL506]

bump

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Regarding Thanatos, Kratos had already become a god. God of War Ghost of Sparta takes place after the first game and before God of War II, where Kratos opened Pandora’s Box and gained the power to kill a god like Ares. I don’t agree with calling that an outlier.

Unless God of War Ghost of Sparta takes place before the events of God of War I, I don’t see why Kratos shouldn’t scale here.

 

[KLOL506]

Regarding Thanatos, Kratos had already become a god. God of War Ghost of Sparta takes place after the first game and before God of War II, where Kratos opened Pandora’s Box and gained the power to kill a god like Ares. I don’t agree with calling that an outlier.

Unless God of War Ghost of Sparta takes place before the events of God of War I, I don’t see why Kratos shouldn’t scale here.

The Power that Kratos used went dormant after he killed Ares. Even Athena states after the end of GoS that he is ready to be a God. Also the outlier argument has been removed by Planck due to him claiming it got rejected, so no point discussing that.

That being said, in the GoW2 novel, when Kratos drains the last bit of his magics, his tiny remainder right before he loses it all is still stated to be the same level of strength that he used to kill Ares, right before he becomes fully mortal. That is another reason why I am not sold on the whole "4-A, Low 1-C with rage" key either, since Partial God Kratos was still able to use his Domain to the fullest and would at the very least be that strong, if not stronger. But either way, it's not gonna matter, my viewpoint is going to be rejected regardless.

Anyway, we should refrain from commenting further. I have already tagged staff and bumped. Now we wait.

 

[KLOL506]

bump

 

[Hellbeast]

At this point do we need anyone else to weigh in? Feels like we’ve basically gotten all the feedback we can except at this point

 

[Planck69]

At this point do we need anyone else to weigh in? Feels like we’ve basically gotten all the feedback we can except at this point

I'd feel a bit distasteful applying the last point with a 1 vote difference. But you are right that we've gotten a plethora of feedback at this point.

 

[Hellbeast]

I'd feel a bit distasteful applying the last point with a 1 vote difference. But you are right that we've gotten a plethora of feedback at this point.

yeah it does feel a bit dirty bit, at this point, were basically past grace (iirc) and i doubt were getting anyone new in this thread to tip the balance

 

[Planck69]

yeah it does feel a bit dirty bit, at this point, were basically past grace (iirc) and i doubt were getting anyone new in this thread to tip the balance

Grace was over days ago, yeah. I guess I can vote myself and wrap this up. Hopefully the other scaling threads won't be well, this.

 

[Planck69]

Done with the changes (there were barely any tbh). Closing this.