Dragon Ball Z Multiplier Removal

[Godernet]

Pm agree with DDM here,

Like I get wanting more feats for such ludicrous increases but acknowledging a multiplier would act as the author wrote it for one part of the series but not the others feels far more arbitrary and a bit disingenuous tbh.

Are we saying that Kaioken wouldn’t make Buu Saga Goku 2-20x faster? Or that it would but the Super Saiyan transformations later on are just inferior to Kaioken despite him completely shelving a free and very blatant multiplier ability for Super Saiyan later on, and Super Saiyan forms repeated portrayal of being > KKx20.

 

[Damage3245]

The initial 0.54c was done by Raditz era Piccolo and when AP/speed was slightly restricted due to weighted clothes

I may be misremembering, but the weighted clothes actually restricts the speed of Piccolo's Ki beams?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I may be misremembering, but the weighted clothes actually restricts the speed of Piccolo's Ki beams?

I think it's acting as a suppression (lowering the overall power level) so his general speed would go down which would include ki blast speed. Unless I'm mistaken, I haven't been following current dragon ball scaling topics, so I don't know if we separate those.

 

[SomebodyData]

Snip

I think the issue here is that the supporters and opposition of the thread are arguing two different things.

- The supporters of the thread are noting that by our current multiplier standards, this is an excessive abuse of multiplier stacking. There is barely, if any, calculated feats that can back up the scaling proving the multiplier chain at the moment. This is an exception solely given to DB, after all, who can name one verse that was given this sort of leniency? MFTL+ based solely on stacking multiplier after multiplier? This is true.

- The opposition are noting that several of the multipliers (KK and SSJ in particular) are quite well supported by the narrative and scaling. To such a degree that without considering the multipliers, the story falls apart. DB has many inconsistencies, but this is arguably one of the most consistent elements of the series, at least untill later sagas and sequels. This is also true.

I don't think any supporter can deny the consistency of the multipliers but the opposition has to acknowledge the wiki standards do not allow this multiplier stacking.

It might be better if the opposition makes a thread to rewrite the multiplier standards, as to allow this instead.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Unless I'm mistaken, I haven't been following current dragon ball scaling topics, so I don't know if we separate those.

Speed is tied to power level/ki amplifications rather than raw physicals. So when Piccolo total Ki is lower his total speed will also be lower.

 

[Qawsedf234]

who can name one verse that was given this sort of leniency?

Bleach and God of Highschool. Though the later has more MFTL+ supporting feats for those showings.

 

[Dalesean027]

Bleach and God of Highschool. Though the later has more MFTL+ supporting feats for those showings.

Bleach's is getting axed I think to be much lower from the current downgrades

 

[SomebodyData]

Bleach and God of Highschool. Though the later has more MFTL+ supporting feats for those showings.

Bleach's is getting axed I think to be much lower from the current downgrades

So now Dragon Ball really is the sole exception. God of Highschool has its feats at least.

But again, I would really recommend making a thread altering the multiplier standards instead. This is the most straightforward way to save the DB speed scaling.

This thread has already passed grace a few days ago anyways, so we're just waiting for it to be closed by the OP.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think the issue here is that the supporters and opposition of the thread are arguing two different things.

- The supporters of the thread are noting that by our current multiplier standards, this is an excessive abuse of multiplier stacking. There is barely, if any, calculated feats that can back up the scaling proving the multiplier chain at the moment. This is an exception solely given to DB, after all, who can name one verse that was given this sort of leniency? MFTL+ based solely on stacking multiplier after multiplier? This is true.

- The opposition are noting that several of the multipliers (KK and SSJ in particular) are quite well supported by the narrative and scaling. To such a degree that without considering the multipliers, the story falls apart. DB has many inconsistencies, but this is arguably one of the most consistent elements of the series, at least untill later sagas and sequels. This is also true.

I don't think any supporter can deny the consistency of the multipliers but the opposition has to acknowledge the wiki standards do not allow this multiplier stacking.

It might be better if the opposition makes a thread to rewrite the multiplier standards, as to allow this instead.

As I have said earlier, I am planning to make a staff thread to revise multiplier standards as a whole. If verses other than Dragon Ball get upgraded as a result, so be it. But capping multipliers at 100x has always seemed iffy. Not to mention, consecutive 2-50x multipliers with multilayered A>B>C scaling has never been something I agreed with comparing to a single one off million times scaler. I think the difference between poetic hyperbole context vs specific numeral statements intended to be basic math is the difference rather than limiting a gap to specific numbers.

But me and a couple others are planning a different thread to revise that next. Realistically in order to be consistent with what is 1000% canon in Dragon Ball, Kaioken should be pretty all or nothing when it comes to using them for speed upscaling.

To answer your question for "What verses other than Dragon Ball have gotten away with this?", we actually upgraded Raizen from High 6-A to 5-C based multiplier statements, which would have been uniformingly rejected many years ago. And as Qawsed said, Bleach and JJK have similar situations. And I at least recall Sonic the Hedgehog used to have even outrageous types of speed multipliers accepted that involved random calculated numbers that had more than 3 sig figs. Also, Fairy Tail also has super big multipliers iirc that DemonGodMitch proposed a long time ago.

Bleach's is getting axed I think to be much lower from the current downgrades

Bleach's planned downgrades were based more so on the revitalized size of Seireitei iirc rather than Ichigo's multipliers. But we're getting off topic here, would rather just revise our multipliers page later instead.

 

[Nierre]

A couple questions since it's been a minute since I've read Namek. So please excuse me if these questions come off as dumb

Vegeta alongside Krillin and Gohan were getting blitzed and bodied by Recoome, who is obviously much faster than the 2.16c at that point

I agree with everything so far but what makes Recoome obviously much faster than 2.16c (Saiyan Saga KKx4 Goku)? If he's much faster than "Early" Namek Saga Vegeta, who would be at least 1.62c, then Recoome would just be at least 1.62c (but just far faster). Am I misunderstanding something here?

And he also oneshots Recoome and Burter while still holding back. Far faster than he was back in Saiyan saga even with Kaioken x4.

Similar question as above

• Senzu Bean Goku gave Vegeta made him much stronger/faster than Ginyu and equal to Frieza's 1st form
• Frieza's 2nd form is 2x stronger/faster than 1st form, and said to be above Goku's 10x Kaioken at the time, who'd be much faster than the 21.6c going off pattern

If everything that I've said is correct so far, and I could definitely be wrong, Base (Post Gravity Chamber) Goku at this point would massively upscale from at least 1.62c.

(Post Gravity Chamber) Goku (at least 1.62c) < Ginyu (at least 1.62c) < (Post Senzu Bean) Vegeta ~ 1st form Frieza < 2nd form Frieza (16.2c)

Is Vegeta above KKx2 Post Gravity Chamber Goku at this point in the story? And if so based on what?

Everything else seems to make sense to me from what I can remember. If I'm correct then the values would be different, but would still be in the MFTL+ ranges


Edit: answered elsewhere

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bleach's is getting axed I think to be much lower from the current downgrades

The rating or the multiplier chain? Because to my knowledge the rating will be lower, but the multiplier chain is being kept isn't it?

So now Dragon Ball really is the sole exception. God of Highschool has it's feats at least.

I mean, not really

The Ragnarok arc MFTL+ characters like base Mori Jin scale to 1/250,000 of the Universe turn off feat (3.155 Quintillion c)
The Part 6 low-mid MFTL+ characters like The Pillars of Fate member scale 48x above Ragnarok arc base Mori Jin (151.44 Quintillion c), while also scale to (788.92315 Sextillion c) as the "likely" value
The Part 6 mid MFTL+ characters like Ogre scale 48× above the low-mid MFTL+ (7.26912 sextillion c), while also scale to (37.8683112 septillion c) as the "likely" value
The Part 6 high-mid MFTL+ characters like Jeabongchim Satan scale to 250,000x the Universe turn off feat (197.23 Octillion c)
The higher Part 6 MFTL+ characters like base Miracle Mori scale above 250,000x the mid MFTL+ characters (49.3 decillion c)
The fastest MFTL+ characters like full power Miracle Mori scale 48x above base Miracle Mori (2.36 undecillion c)

GoH is using a 250,000 x 250,000 x 48 scaling chain with the nearest supporting feat being 4.5 millionx FTL vs 2.36 Undecillion FTL. But that's for a different thread I guess.

To answer your question for "What verses other than Dragon Ball have gotten away with this?", we actually upgraded Raizen from High 6-A to 5-C based multiplier statements, which would have been uniformingly rejected many years ago. And as Qawsed said, Bleach and JJK have similar situations. And I at least recall Sonic the Hedgehog used to have even outrageous types of speed multipliers accepted that involved random calculated numbers that had more than 3 sig figs. Also, Fairy Tail also has super big multipliers iirc that DemonGodMitch proposed a long time ago.

Yeah there's multiple shone franchises with a multiplier scaling chain as long as Dragon Balls.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Yeah there's multiple shone franchises with a multiplier scaling chain as long as Dragon Balls.

This is not true at all, Bleach doesn’t jump from 0.5c to 43 trillion c, they went from 9c to below 1000c which is the cap for MFTL speed, their jump is probably even lower then what the conclusion of this thread proposes, they stack 5x into a 5x one and that’s it. JJK doesn’t use any multiplier besides Black Flash’s 2.5x which in the grand scheme of things it’s not even that useful. Naruto has MFTL speed using a FTL feat but they’ll get more stuff with Urashiki space travel stuff as I’ve heard and they also got power creeped to hell with Boruto dudes stomping their asses as well.

EDIT: Naruto does have MFTL feats accepted at 432c, so they can justify the jump from their multipliers.

Urashiki Upgrade

Breathes This blog was accepted. There’s not much to add as all the relevant contexts are in the blog itself. I’ll just be focusing on potential pushbacks. Scaling That's all Barcelona and Man City are playing at the same time. Don't burn the thread till I get back Agree: @Nierre @FinePoint...

vsbattles.com

Not only Dragon Ball has probably the biggest jump in all of Shounen, the verse doesn’t even have calculated and accepted FTL, FTL+ or even MFTL feats.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Just to put this into perspective, if Bleach jumped from 9c to 2 billion c, their jump would represent just 0.0046% from that of Dragon Ball. But they’ll just stack two 5x multiplier making it 25x.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I also just saw the GOH multiplier stated somewhere here in the thread, not only they instantly one shot a trillion clones from their previous equal, but a 250000x multiplier is 0.000000291% of the Dragon Ball jump, DB has a jump of 86 trillion times, and that’s 344 million times the 250000x jump.

And 250000x is ONE multiplier. DB stacks a bunch of then without any care for feats or consistency.

 

[Qawsedf234]

250000x multiplier is 0.000000291% of the Dragon Ball jump, DB has a jump of 86 trillion times, and that’s 344 million times the 250000x jump.

GOH is a 48 x 250,000 x 250,000 x 48 increase over their feat or 144 Trillion.

The rest, while not as massive as Dragon Ball, is still well over a hundred. At least in the edge cases. But like I said that would be for a different thread.

 

[M3X_2.0]

GOH is a 48 x 250,000 x 250,000 x 48 increase over their feat or 144 Trillion.

EDIT: it’s trillion, I ****** up a few zeros.

The rest, while not as massive as Dragon Ball, is still well over a hundred. At least in the edge cases. But like I said that would be for a different thread.

What rest? Bleach is at 25x, JJK doesn’t have any for speed, GOH justifies itself with feats, Naruto is kinda sus but they’re getting even more support soon.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What rest? Bleach is at 25x

Bleach is more than 25x. You have Bankai × Hollow Mask × Blunt/Cero x Sclaing chains. Yamamoto for example is a 6-B feat being chainscaled to Low 5-B+.

Some of the multiplier chains are like 10,000x.

JJK doesn’t have any for speed, GOH justifies itself with feats, Naruto is kinda sus but they’re getting even more support soon.

Naruto and Fairy Tail stick out to me.

EDIT: Checking One Piece, the top tiers are all 316x the highest called feat due to multiplier stacks. While not Dragon Ball tier, its still over that 100x soft cap we're given.

 

[Godernet]

Really feels like we should have a multiplier thread about this whole “soft cap”

Individual examples about verses meeting or slightly falling out of the standards just means there’s a bigger topic that needs to be addressed.

 

[BlackeJan]

Fairy Tail stick out to me.

I know this isn’t right for me to say here but u can delete this but iirc, each form has a multiplier because statements are said to be stronger then the last one

For example: DF is a 3x multiplier, if there’s another form that’s stronger then DF then that’s also a 3x

That’s ok to use or no?

 

[Damage3245]

Naruto and Fairy Tail stick out to me.

EDIT: Checking One Piece, the top tiers are all 316x the highest called feat due to multiplier stacks. While not Dragon Ball tier, its still over that 100x soft cap we're given.

For One Piece, the multipliers should only stack up to 256x. There is some upscaling for some reason on the last few characters that puts them into 5-B.

But One Piece is also a verse that's fairly out of date by this point, and the multipliers could do with a re-examination.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Bleach is more than 25x. You have Bankai × Hollow Mask × Blunt/Cero x Sclaing chains. Yamamoto for example is a 6-B feat being chainscaled to Low 5-B+.

Some of the multiplier chains are like 10,000x.

For Attack Potency where they have a 4 Exatons High 6-A calc and one 113 Exatons 5-C calc. So they have feats in-between the multipliers.

This is like if DB had a 2 billion c feat and one like 10 trillion c feat. But they don’t and they upscale from a 0.5c feat.

Naruto and Fairy Tail stick out to me.

Naruto has a 432c feat from Boruto, Fairy Tail uses a 3x multiplier for speed.

Naruto goes from a sub-rel feat and in the exact feat got a 1000x explicit multiplier that only applied to that feat, then Naruto performed a casual FTL feat and decades later with a new form Naruto upscales to 10x with a stated multiplier.

They go from 0.028c to 28c, with Naruto’s FTL feat in between and a stronger Naruto being 10x his young self. Boruto also had Urashiki with w 432c feat in between.

At most this is a 10000x jump with FTL and MFTL feats, and also with stomp chains in between.

Dragon Ball has a jump over 8.6 billion times that of Naruto, and Naruto represents 0.0000000116% of Dragon Ball.

Fairy Tail has a bunch of feats and calcs to back up the rating, not everything there is multiplier, some are upscaling, and some multipliers are not stacked even. You have Sub-Rel+ calcs, 99% SoL and SoL speeds and a 30% SoL calc.

Dragon Ball has nothing.

Really feels like we should have a multiplier thread about this whole “soft cap”

Individual examples about verses meeting or slightly falling out of the standards just means there’s a bigger topic that needs to be addressed.

Not at all, there is no multiplier issue here, we have a clear standard and people are trying to make DB ignore it. All verses have their feats in between the multipliers and the jumps are AT MOST a thousand times to a tens of thousands times jump, Dragon Ball has a 86 TRILLION times jump. It’s not comparable at all given they don’t have any feats in between to support that, it’s just stacked multipliers.

Really, this thread already passed, not a single staff changed their minds. What are we even doing at this point?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Really, this thread already passed, not a single staff changed their minds. What are we even doing at this point?

I mean it can be applied now. All that's left is just applying the speed changes to the manga profiles.

 

[Damage3245]

Really, this thread already passed, not a single staff changed their minds. What are we even doing at this point?

You can post a follow-up Content Revision thread with proposals for how to update the profiles.

This thread is starting to veer off into discussing other series in general instead of Dragon Ball's case specifically.

 

[M3X_2.0]

You guys can close the thread then. A thread will be done very soon.

Ben 10 and Demon Slayer next.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Closing the thread. Approved per majority mod vote.

A diff CRT/action will apply the downgrades to DB.