Touhou Discussion Thread 4 ⌈Fossilized Wonders Edition⌋

[Diabul]

I'm guessing what is being said there is that they can normally fight Shion without instantly losing, therefore they are resistant to her passive misfortune, but when they get possessed through perfect possession, they get affected, which counts as a layer. In other words, Shion's passive misfortune < Shion's possession misfortune

Other characters don't have this noted in their profiles though yeah. I find this shaky though, I'll explain it below.

Tenshi can still succumb to Shion's passive bad luck from WaHH

Can she? I don't remember it directly affecting Tenshi herself.

Regardless, Shion's misfortune can affect Tenshi if Shion ramps her power up, Dream Tenshi says so in AoCF. So, Serious Shion's misfortune would be a layer above Shion's possession misfortune in this case. That's also said in that post I linked. Shion's passive misfortune < Shion's possession misfortune < Shion's full power misfortune

Also Marisa even has the Mini Hakero which already gives her luck so why is her luck lesser than Mokou?

I'm not sure, it looks like an oversight to me. The premise of the first layer is the fact that Shion's passive misfortune can affect Marisa despite the Hakkero. But if Mokou and others have resistance to Shion's passive aura simply because of being able to fight her, the same should apply to Marisa too, meaning the initial premise about "Shion's passive aura can affect Marisa with Hakkero" becomes null.

If you ask me, I'd say none of them except Tenshi and Reimu are resistant to Shion's passive misfortune, they just don't get affected strongly enough in an instant. The characters don't immediately bite the dust just by being near Shion in the manga for example.

I don't think there is any evidence that says Shion's passive aura is something strong enough to make someone immediately lose a fight anyway. Her misfortune gets acknowledged as a threat only when she makes use of it through possession or she fights with full power. So I think one or two layers should go.

 

[Schattenbach]

Yukari never meant to fight Toyohime as you said. From the start, her plan depended on distracting the sisters and making them think they won— So that Yuyuko could sneak around for a month in the capital and steal the sake, which Yukari later used to terrorize Eirin in CiLR since it was her actual main objective.


Well, as I said, this has no evidence behind it. They have never been compared to each other. Nothing about Toyohime's strength has ever been talked about at all. Even ZUN glazes only Yorihime in that "too strong to be put in a game" interview.

A big power difference between Yorihime and Toyohime doesn't sound too far off, considering that Flan and Remilia are in the same boat— and mainly because we don't really have any reason to assume there isn't a big gap.

There's also the issue of Toyohime both countering Yukari to likely high degree due to also being proficient user of some Boundary Manipulation ability and her possessing a fantastic reusable nuke combined with lack of concern for collateral damage to Gensoyko (or the Great Barrier). Her supernatural luck might've suppressed Yukari at least slightly, too, as she should know how dangerous such things are even in cases where Toyohime just goofs around, let alone when she's serious.

I'm not sure the site standards allow for varies for something like touhou

Thanks for the answer. Would be good if that becomes gets cleared up eventually. Though on that note, who's of the opinion that it might help.

 

[Robo432343]

@Wonder_of_Fantasy retire?

 

[BonjourGnome]

Hello is there any reason to consider Touhou's concept manipulation to be type 1

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Hello is there any reason to consider Touhou's concept manipulation to be type 1

A few off the top of my head, the Dream World with Doremy is a point of origin for a lot of things & boundary manipulation by Yukari, Reimu, etc does stuff on huge and fundamental scales including mathematical, "what is real vs fantasy," etc.

 

[BonjourGnome]

A few off the top of my head, the Dream World with Doremy is a point of origin for a lot of things & boundary manipulation by Yukari, Reimu, etc does stuff on huge and fundamental scales including mathematical, "what is real vs fantasy," etc.

So how does Yukari's capacity to manipulate boundaries is classified as type 1?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

In the event of the pages being updated -- no time soon since only I and maybe one or two other active members here arguably know enough Touhou trivia to do it, and I'm usually not around or up for something that time-consuming anyway -- there'll have to be big blogs covering these topics. In the meantime, this recent (mostly well-cited and considered) blog might give you something for your curiosity. That blog does need to go into more detail (or least articulate in clearer terms) on some things such as a clear hierarchy of realms & necessarily transformation/prep/abilities when entering certain ones, but it should cover your CM1 questions.

 

[BonjourGnome]

In the event of the pages being updated -- no time soon since only I and maybe one or two other active members here arguably know enough Touhou trivia to do it, and I'm usually not around or up for something that time-consuming anyway -- there'll have to be big blogs covering these topics. In the meantime, this recent (mostly well-cited and considered) blog might give you something for your curiosity. That blog does need to go into more detail (or least articulate in clearer terms) on some things such as a clear hierarchy of realms & necessarily transformation/prep/abilities when entering certain ones, but it should cover your CM1 questions.

I dont see any mentions regarding boundaries being an independant concept

 

[Reiner04]

Since idk shit abt Touhou, Is the following edit okay?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Koishi_Komeiji?curid=309161&diff=9520958&oldid=9519553

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Since idk shit abt Touhou, Is the following edit okay?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Koishi_Komeiji?curid=309161&diff=9520958&oldid=9519553

Yes, she is indeed a youkai

 

[RanHover60]

Reimu for smash

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

What to do with the verse now..

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

That G1 blog was built on the research of Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara and a lot of other supporters that have since disappeared from social media as far as I know of. So there is a path to having a general idea of what profile justifications would look like, but those justifications getting a fair shake is another story. The way to go would be to have a cosmology blog, one that emphasizes not just Outside World (which is the only part of the whole that most incredulity-mongers are so much as aware of) & Dream World R>F but especially the underlying mechanics of Names/Namelessness, boundaries, reality having layers above spacetime in the form of mentality, memory, etc, as they are the essential foundation for empowerment and create time and space themselves. The next step would be to make a tier list of sorts to reference who scales to who, maybe even making a fleet of sandbox profiles for them. The final step would be to wait an eternity because so few are willing to engage with T1 threads, and even fewer are willing to actually engage with T1 threads instead of just signaling incredulity.

Kirbonic Pikmin is probably the most knowledgeable Touhou powerscaler on the public internet now, and KP does seem easy to reach via blog comments (worth a read). But like KP said, Touhou has too few supporters and too much incredulity in an already slow environment to make big-website revisions less than nightmarish for the people putting in the work. There are some much simpler CRTs for much simpler verses that have been languishing for months despite entailing far less friction for all parties. And me personally, I've got great things going on IRL that are gonna result in being even less active here again, and with that little time for nerdery I aim to help with others' Madness Combat revisions and maybe even re-introduce Chrono to the wiki myself before tackling something as massive as Touhou.

Others are free to try, but they'll have to have elite degrees of thoroughness, presentation accessibility, and patience. Even then, I'd wait for the temperature change that can come from further awareness-raising -- perhaps including a future Bang's Blog article featuring Touhou that KP is working on, or maybe some surprise returns from other experts -- and build credibility in more well-known subjects before trying.



On another note, that remaster of Embodiment of Scarlet Devil could be neat. Will have to see how faithfully it plays firsthand, but what I've seen of the art direction makes for a pleasant contrast over the tasteless "Nintendo hire this man" hideousness replacing the classics recently. Adding infinite-life journo modes might be a bad idea, though; I know some other games have it but I never liked the idea of that kind of compromise as opposed to the standard Easy Mode gateway or even just a high finite life count. [EDIT: Though while I worry about there being a "expanding to modern audiences" effect with the journo mode, far too few actually play the games anyway, and it is good that this cornerstone of the genre is finally gonna be more widely distributed and somewhat preserved several operating systems after the original release.]

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Well, I don't like standing around doing nothing, somehow I'd say I'm the one with the most time in trying to make some form of attempt at all about this. Not that I would say that I have any sort of 'elite' anything, I have to try my best in regards to something. Seeing things in such shape for right now do leave a weird taste in my mouth.

Finding out where to start.. that'll most definitely be the hardest to think about.

 

[Steve1775]

Well I wanted to do a revision for some characters but the issue being that I wasn't sure if there would be a wide site revamp of the series which would have included stuff that I may not know about so I had thought about waiting for a bit beforehand

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Finding out where to start.. that'll most definitely be the hardest to think about.

Probably either Names or the mentality-as-metaphysics stuff. They play into an underlying fundament of how the Outside World humans, Yukari, the gods, etc shape cosmology. Going right for Outside World = 1A R>F appears inadequate without explaining the mechanics first, and if anything the mechanics carry on their own with less baggage. Oh, and there might be a case for Heaven having infinite layers, still looking further into that one.

I still think it'd be better to wait and do a super-duper long-time-in-the-making verse-overhaul good CRT, not one of those where people don't know what they're signing up for & the OP has to be edited a bunch & the topic is essentially reset a bunch of times with increasing friction over multiple attempts. But in the meantime, one(s) could try making some sandboxes that would at least be a foundation to work with. My rec for supporters would be to read the AP and cosmology sections of that blog repeatedly for a while first, then try re-presenting in (sandbox) blogs, then try ascertaining who scales to who/what, and keep going in cycles of polish like that before CRTing anything. I'd like to try it, myself, but I have no timeframe, especially since I'd probably do the simpler but still a bit lengthy Chrono series first.

Really, one could practically copy-paste the stuff from the G1 blog that KP and company worked on, applying better structure to it across dedicated blogposts for the sake of presentation to have a workable case. But, y'know, actually be as familiar with the material oneself & anticipate FAQs. Though while it isn't as if anyone's work is copyrighted or whatever, I would prefer some of those researchers to swing back around here to do the job their way instead of taking the baton from them. Although KP's Q&A blog did imply being cool with that.