Not worst, but only situation. Because there's no resistance to power mimicry on Lady Bone. So it'll end up becoming Lady Bone vs Lady Bone w/Holopsicon. On top of that, there's no way to interact with Altair's abstract-self bc of Acausality Type 5. So yeah, this is just an Incon.
So is it safe to say that you're voting inconclusive then?
Yeah.
Yeah so like i said. ur assuming the concepts in lego monkie kid have the same nature as the concepts in re:creators. which is just not the case. its pretty blatant when lmks concepts r basically just a glorified version of hells paradises concept that is tao. hence as i implied. the 8 layers of resistance only works against cm of lmks own nature. something fundamentally distinct and more powerful like concepts in recreators can js bypass it.
her res to void manipulation is limited to the extent of void manipulation shown within her series.
I also explained why its unbypassable. But ill explain it again. SBA proposes the cosmologies get equalized. Therefore the source of all existence within re:creators is would also be the source of all existence within LMK. Now i dont think anyone in LMK has shown res to such a feat as removing the qualities that makes you, you. This goes perfectly into LBD not having res to statistics reduction, which altairs existence erasure at a foundational level just is, but way more op since its not manipulating quantitative things. So as ive explained here Lady bone demons resistance to void manipulation wont work against altairs ability that appears to be void manipulation.
yeah thats my bad then. ill cross off mind and fate manipulation. but probability manipulation no, while yes its a possible use of fate manipulation. it doesnt mean you automatically get resistance to it by being resistant to fate manipulation. fundamentally probability manipulation and fate manipulation are distinct haxes. not to mention fate manipulation doesnt always mean you can also manipulate probability so yeah this argument just doesnt work. LBD has no res against probability manipulation n this is something altair has used before to defeat her enemies. So in conclusion no probability manipulation is not covered by fate manipulation
it can and will. She can just nullify their ability of restoration.
Well sucks to suck doesnt it. Altairs bfr has a range of Low complex multiversal, which is larger than a measely interdimenisonal im pretty sure. meaning her teleportation wont work in the exact scenario the series starts with lmfao.
Thats assuming information between the 2 series have the same nature again. this applies to cm and im, information and concepts in general are way more fundamental and powerful in recreators which causes a problem for LMK. like the information page states:
unfortunately, Re:creators js has a higher potency in everything.
K so we should have no problems with saying that LBD js cant do anything to altair. (assuming she is resistant to all her own abilities)
oooh boy, this is a real doozy.
and as i established previously her void manipulation absolutely works since LBD doesnt have any state of existence that can counteract this
it doesnt work based on ur limited understanding. You need to account for things that u arent accounting for currently which massively change the outcome of the battle. i have taken these things into account in my responses here.
Ill address these too at once,
Yeah which is what i was addressing, they have relative speed so no character blitzs one another.
This is just gibberish, the only instance where a higher imm speed is actually meaningful is if its dealing with higher dimensional hypertimelines. otherwise, what u described doesnt mean anything, they would still have the same speed regardless of who perception blitzed who since thats relative to the observer in question.
Highly recommend u read what i said about this matchup in my recent post, i think it would help you a bit too.
Btw concepts being more fundamental what does that mean?
information*, but if ur referring to concepts. basically the only difference between type 2 and type 1 is the relations they have between the object being governed by the concept. it doesnt differentiate between the strength of the properities the concepts have. So its completely viable that theres a really strong type 2 concept which can overpower a type 1 concept but has more weaknesses.
Also you should read the rules. we are taking pre god altair(so basically everything until the scene where she and setsuna are together in another world)
I still think it's a stomp because of what you said about hax being more fundamental. If no, what lbd can even do here
The current discussion isnt about whether LBD can do anything since i think both parties agree that LBD cant even interact with altair let alone win a fight. But rather whether LBD vs Altair is altair winning or a stalemate.
OP thinks LBDs resistances would work against the haxs altair can use, but in my previous post i explain that either altairs haxes js have a greater potency then what LBD can resist, or she just doesnt have resistance to such a hax in the first place.
so is altair smurf? (I notice cosmology shenanigans is being brought up)
No, but given the current profile, it could be interpreted as such, which is why im planning to get that changed eventually
so for the time being anyway she is?
False equivalence. The Lego Monkie Kid verse's Concept of Fate is a power born from the Primordial Chaos and is what created(and sustains) the entire LMK Macrocosm. This power also the most fundamental aspect of this reality and is what governs every aspect of the Macrocosm which includes Space, Time, Causality, Laws, Information/Data, History, Life/Death etc. So this and the Hell's Paradise's Tao are in no way comparable to one another.
Well the extent of the Void Manipulation shown in the verse is this:
The source of all existence in the LMK verse is the Concept of Fate and is shown to all of the same aspects as the Re:Creators Imaginative Force, so even though these two powers are not in the same tier the fact still remains that Lady Bone Demon's resistances would apply to Altair's powers, so no this is not unbypassable.
The LMK verse's Concept of Fate also governs the aspect of causality so yes this very much would apply.
No, no it cant. The Power Nullification explicitly says and I quote:"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified, and also that a character may be resistant to the ability, at least in one of its forms, preventing it from having its usual effects."
Lady Bone Demon's Teleportation allows her to travel to universes with separate space-times and she also has 5D Time Travel so again this won't work.
Wrong. The LMK verses Concept of Fate is the most fundamental aspect of its reality as it's the power that created and sustains the entire Macrocosm, and is also what governs all of it's other fundamental aspects as well.
And Altair can't do anything to Lady Bone Demon.
I was talking aboout Altair, who again was never shown using Selesia's Ionion Aphoria.
Wrong again as I explained above
Already explained why Lady Bone Demon's resistances would apply here so one again this wouldn't work.
So have I, and from what I can see Lady Bone Demons abilities/resistances can(and will) apply here.
You do realize this completely contradicts the narrative that the all of the protagonists(including smart characters like Meteora, who seems to be the smartest character in the protagonists group) believe that they can beat Altair by either destroying(or trapping in Selesia case) her image body right? And it seems its implied that Altair herself believes this as she chose to use Probability Manipulation to find a way out Selesia's Ionion Aphoria(instead of spawning another image body), and chose to overwrite Sirius(instead of spawning another image body). So while this interpretation of yours is interesting right now Occam's Razor(and the current evidence listed in her profile) all support her real form not being able to interact with anything without an image body.
Cause as I explained above there is no evidence that Altair's true form can interact with anything without an image body.
And as I explained above it very much is a stalemate.
Anything is possible in fiction therefore nothing is truly impossible. With that said if an Author states/shows that a character with Immeasurable speed can be blitzed t by another character hen that becomes a fact in said story, so unfortunately for you it doesn't matter whether or not it makes sense from your perspective as this would still remain a fact.
Well it seems to me it's you who didn't understand the Lego Monkie Kid verse. And by the way the Information Manipulation/Data Manipulation comes from this:
Did i not say it was more glorified than tao? and not to mention tao does that too. excluding information n data. So yes they are comparable to each other. Also you didnt even address the actual problem which is how the concept of fate is arguably a weaker concept then the concepts in re:creators.
From what youve shown it just looks like a conventional void or in entity terms, returing smth to a nep 1 place. which is definitely less than the extent that altair can return things to the void in her verse.
this might be the wrongest thing uve said so far. idk why ur bringing Imagination into this since we KNOW it scales higher and therefore by default its extent is larger. imagination by default encompasses stuff in higher dimensions like 6D, that is beyond the extent of the whole of LMK. so no these sources of existence are not the same. and im not even getting into the properities of each of these sources since the difference is even more clear there. i dont think the concept of fate is a intelligble unity and self referential condition for possible worlds.
ok? ur just ignoring the problem. causality manipulation is not probability manipulation, its again just a possible use not a necessary use. Therefore NO, again resistance to fate manip and causality manipulation does not give resistance to probability manipulation.
Unluckily for you, while its not listed in the abilities tab itself. its still mentioned on the page, that being the thirteenth movement of the cosmos outline origin, this qualifies for unconventional restoration as it "return objects to their original state" as per what the restoration page says. And since this is an ability altair has herself, its therefore negated by herself during the sirius fight n so she gains power null against restoration we also see her restore herself in the fight against sirius too. and its fun that you mention this, because last i checked i dont think LBD has resistance to unconventional restoration. Yes it will work no matter what becasue ive established how info type 2 between the 2 verses are just vastly different.
so ur just admitting again that its interdimensional teleportation and not low complex multiversal teleportation. Also time travel does not mean you can travel through space, its literally stated as a possible limitation lol. So we can agree that bfr works.
its clear u didnt understand my point, "fundamental" is relative, for example atoms are understood as the most fundamental in chemistry, cells are the most fundamental in biology, are you telling me information in LMK is equivalent to that of cells and atoms in terms of fundamentality. the problem is by saying its "the most fundamental" doesnt qualify it for anything other than the types which i already explained does not elaborate on the actual prowess of the ability itself. You are not elaborating on such.
You keep arguing that without any proper justification atleast i know what im talking about and how i justify it as such.
ur explanation was wrong, horribly wrong.
NO lmfao, its the exact opposite. like cmon dude, reading a bit of the explanation page is enough to understand this. This is like the stupidest response yet. Selesia literally says "it wont work unless we attack the concept itself" this was the whole purpose of the concept cohesion boost for kanoya and alicetaria. They only believed that they could affect altair at the beginning of the story when they had barely any knowledge on the world.
she didnt even use probability manipulation against selesia. u cant argue with me about what the character intentions are when you barely understand whats going on in the series.
are you forgetting that the sixty sixth movement changes existence itself? its not like she only took over her physical body. she overrid her whole existence, or atleast tried to but failed because of the reseasons provided for unconventional resurrection. ur examples are like completely disanalogous
nothing supports ur claim lmao, u just misunderstood the actual series n r making ur claims based on that misunderstanding which is fallacious.
She by default has every ability of the creations shown, its been consistently shown that holopsicon is omnipoent and is the power of all things. and no this isnt NLF, its pretty clear that the limits are to whatever the series has shown so far. i am not assuming she has abilities outside of what has been shown within the series, hence a clear limitation and what i said is still coherent.
ur acting like the image body is its own entity that can act without altair. even though ive proven to you logically and narratively that this is just gibberish
ur explanation was wrong, like always
??? this is so fallacious and wrong i might js shed a tear. most writers DO operate under the 3 laws of logic unlike you, AND YES they can infact propose impossibilities within their own series. and no appealing to the author does not make it logically coherent. the only thing they have authority over is their own work, not the logical consequences that follow.
This helps my case lmao, ur not adding anything new. ur js further proving how much stronger re:creators info manip is compared to LMK
Yes and altair has that so we can move on.
Twin
Casper never voted for Altair btw
What do you interpet it as?
Triplet
Well a stomp? This should pretty much be closed so
No like what do you think Casper is tryna say outside of the idea that he agrees altair wins.
That he agrees with Altair winning but with LBD having zero chances of winning. So Idk why are you counting votes when this match should be closed in the first place
She wins but I don't vote because from what Arency told me, matches that are stomps cant be voted so I dont vote here. Also I think incon needs both sides having winning chances against each other
cuz i lwk forgot they dont allow one sided match ups.
it lwk will be sad when altair gets upgraded to the point where u cant even have her in vs battle matchups
How high do you plan to upgrade herit lwk will be sad when altair gets upgraded to the point where u cant even have her in vs battle matchups
The Hell's Paradise verse's Tao also doesn't have Fate Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Acausality, so once again they're not comparable. Now please stop trying to force this comparison already cause it doesn't work.
You are aware that Altair hax doesn't scale above the Re:Creator's "Real World"(and thus doesn't scale to the Imaginative Force) in this key right? Plus I also restricted the only 1-A hax Altair has access to in the OP so I don't see why this would be a concern here.
Well if resisting it isn't an option she can always cancel the ability using either her Power Absorption or her Power Nullification.
I'm not talking about their literal abilities, I'm talking about their narrative aspects(i.e the role that they serve in the story). They're both primordial forces that are responsible for creating and governing their respective realities. With that said, I'm not arguing that the Concept of Fate is superior to the Imaginative Force(cause obviously that's not true). My argument is simply that the Concept of Fate is superior to the Re:Creators Storyworlds and "Real World" would thus be superior to Altair's Holopsicon, since Holopsicon only seems to scale to their "Real World".
Well even if that's true the fact still remains that this is still shown to be a primarily defensive ability and thus can't be used by Altair to secure a win here.
Not in the profile= not usable so this technicality argument of yours doesn't work here. And even if what your saying is true the fact remains that, Hikayu was the only one that Altair shown to be able to remove her powers permanently, and that's clearly because she's didn't originally have any to begin with. Lady Bone Demon is literally as old as time itself and has always had her powers so there is no "original form" for Altair to "restore" Lady Bone Demon back to.
Isn't Time Travel literally a Space-Time Manipulation ability? So she can use it to go back to before she got BFR'd by Altair
No I'm saying that the Concept of Fate is more Fundamental than Space, Time, Information , Plot, Death etc. as it's what created and governs/sustains all of these aspects of reality in the LMK verse.
Just because you don't agree with my reasoning doesn't mean there is no justification for them so please stop with this condescending attitude already.
No, no it's not.
And that's proven to be true as they were in fact shown to have affected her with their attacks.
Altair's profile says otherwise:
Yes I do, isn't that why it's listed as Existence Erasure? And my point is that since the only thing that would be affected by this ability is Altair image body and not her "true form" then she could have simply just created a new image body instead of going with the more convoluted option of overwriting Sirius. So the fact that she chose to do this supports the notions that she can't just create new image bodies whenever she wants to.
See above.
I'm well aware that she would have access to every ability of the Re:Creators cast, what I'm saying is that since she was never shown using these abilities then they would be in the bottom of the list of options that she would consider using here.
No I'm saying that Altair "true form" is an incorporeal entity that requires an avatar body to be able to interact with anything as it cannot do so on it's own
No it's not.
I'm not appealing to the author, I'm simply saying this has been proven to be consistent by the story itself, and I see no reason to deny this other than your own personal disbelief, which would in turn make this an argument of incredulity on your end.
Like I said Altair's Information Manipulation doesn't scale to the Imaginative Force, it scales to their "Real World", so while you are technically correct in saying this I don't think it's right to apply this to Altair's own hax as this verse has no UES to allow this kind of scaling.
What I'm saying is her Non-Physical Interaction isn't Layered so Altair might not be able to interact with Lady Bone Demon until the former decides to use her Power Mimicry.
Oh I understand, I simply don't agree with it as your arguments rely on a lot assumptions that's unsupported by the profile itself.
What?
