JJK: Large Mountain level+ God Tiers - Dabura KE Scaling

[ElJoaki5]

I feel like the story makes it pretty clear that Dabura has no power increase, in that moment he just gains the motivation to truly fight.

For his entire life Dabura felt like he didn’t want to fight, the massive strength gap between him and everyone else led him to not put effort into fights and to not feel like fighting. It is when someone that is strong enough for him, Mahoraga, appears that he finally feels like fighting. This doesn't mean his physical capabilities got magically raised, he just begun actually putting effort into the fight. I mean he straight up tells Mahoraga that he'll "fight for real now".

 

[ElJoaki5]

Could we please get the votes of the staff that have been looking over the thread so we can wrap it up

 

[GodEarh206]

I feel like the story makes it pretty clear that Dabura has no power increase, in that moment he just gains the motivation to truly fight.

For his entire life Dabura felt like he didn’t want to fight, the massive strength gap between him and everyone else led him to not put effort into fights and to not feel like fighting. It is when someone that is strong enough for him, Mahoraga, appears that he finally feels like fighting. This doesn't mean his physical capabilities got magically raised, he just begun actually putting effort into the fight. I mean he straight up tells Mahoraga that he'll "fight for real now".

Dabura actually used "Light" on himself to "break his own limits," something he had never done before. Breaking limits without a "stat" increase is something I don't know what you'd call a stat increase, because in JJK, when a character with incredible speed also gains incredible strength.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Dabura actually used "Light" on himself to "break his own limits," something he had never done before. Breaking limits without a "stat" increase is something I don't know what you'd call a stat increase,

The official translation says he's pushing his body to its limits, not breaking them. This would support what I said (and also fit the entire yap going on beforehand in the chapter that i just showed).

because in JJK, when a character with incredible speed also gains incredible strength.

Well yeah you can hit hard if youre moving fast. That doesnt prove anything, durability, which is what we are discussing would not go up like that.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Bump ig

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Since you already commented here(but only on one topic), may I ask your opinions on:
1. Scaling Dabura durability to his KE
2. Scaling Yuji to Dabura. He has much better arguments for scaling to him than Sukuna and Gojo:
Jujutsu Kaisen HQ viewed Yuji as only one who can stand up to Dabura. Using Mahoraga was a last ditch option.
Yuji was confident in being able to take care off Dabura if Yuka loses(this is chapter 20, relativistic kick was chapter before, and he would obviously witness it). Yuji doesn't have WCS and soul damage can be reduced by reinforcing soul(which advanced sorcerer can do subconsciously), so he doesn't have any good options to beat Dabura if he is statgapped. Only way for Yuji to increase speed is through Flowing Red Scale, which he theoretically should master(as other aspects of Blood Manipulation), but there is nothing fully concrete. In light of this, it's unlikely that Yuji would have said this if he wasn't somewhat relative in stats to Dabura

 

[BiggestOpp]

2. Scaling Yuji to Dabura. He has much better arguments for scaling to him than Sukuna and Gojo:
Jujutsu Kaisen HQ viewed Yuji as only one who can stand up to Dabura. Using Mahoraga was a last ditch option.

Yuji is the strongest person on earth at that time, so that’s a given.

Yuji was confident in being able to take care off Dabura if Yuka loses(this is chapter 20, relativistic kick was chapter before, and he would obviously witness it). Yuji doesn't have WCS and soul damage can be reduced by reinforcing soul(which advanced sorcerer can do subconsciously), so he doesn't have any good options to beat Dabura if he is statgapped. Only way for Yuji to increase speed is through Flowing Red Scale, which he theoretically should master(as other aspects of Blood Manipulation), but there is nothing fully concrete. In light of this, it's unlikely that Yuji would have said this if he wasn't somewhat relative in stats to Dabura

1. Yuji was literally EXP farming noobs when Dabura was doing that nonsense. We don’t know what Yuji saw or what he was basing it on.
Yuji also has many different ways he could beat Dabura. Domain and poisoned blood.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yuji was literally EXP farming noobs when Dabura was doing that nonsense. We don’t know what Yuji saw or what he was basing it on.
Yuji also has many different ways he could beat Dabura. Domain and poisoned blood.

1. He wouldn't be able to not notice giant explosion that happened nearby
2. Domain just boosts his stats and technique, and makes his "dismantles" surehit. If he is severely statgapped, domain won't help since it by itself doesn't provide any options to negate durability of stronger opponent
3. Poisonous blood can mess with Dabura a bit, but it won't be able to kill him(unless Yuji manages to pump unholy amount of it into him, which would be very difficult).

 

[BiggestOpp]

1. He wouldn't be able to not notice giant explosion that happened nearby

Yuji was standing in front of a random building in a different part of the city. The area is surrounded by buildings. There’s literally no way he could have saw that explosion from where he was at.
Right before he attacked the curses, that were fleeing from Dabura’s area,
We see from Yuji’s POV that the entire landscape around him is relatively unscathed.
Theres absolutely no basis for Yuji witnessing the explosion.

2. Domain just boosts his stats and technique, and makes his "dismantles" surehit. If he is severely statgapped, domain won't help since it by itself doesn't provide any options to negate durability of stronger opponent

It’s a domain bro

3. Poisonous blood can mess with Dabura a bit, but it won't be able to kill him(unless Yuji manages to pump unholy amount of it into him, which would be very difficult).

Yuji can take care of Dabura without killing him.
Yuji’s blood can knock people out almost instantly, described as being capable of incapacitating people for a few days.
We’ve also seen examples of what the blood can do to people (Naoya). Yuji’s blood is absolutely a deterrent. The chapter he says he would take care of Dabura is the chapter where we see his proficiency with blood manipulation and how it effects people.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Theres absolutely no basis for Yuji witnessing the explosion.

Other than it being city level explosion that he would have obviously heard and likely witness.

It’s a domain bro

Domain aren't everything. Pretty much all sorcerers with a domain would lose against Domainless Sukuna. If Yuji domain doesn't have some form of duraneg, and some means for him to shield himself from Dabura out boxing him in CQC, domain won't help in fight against him. (Besides, it's unlikely to assume that Yuji would think Dabura doesn't have domain on this own).

Yuji’s blood can knock people out almost instantly, described as being capable of incapacitating people for a few days.

This one is actually good argument (compared to above one). But I don't think his blood being able to knock out some fodders indicates it can do something against much more tankier and sturdier Dabura.

I think we already exhausted most possible arguments. If you something truly novel on this, share it. But otherwise, let's agree to disagree, and see what staff decides

 

[BiggestOpp]

Other than it being city level explosion that he would have obviously heard and likely witness.

It didn’t destroy all of Tokyo, we know from Tsurugi’s POV and Yuji’s that most of the city is intact.
We also get an overhead view of the area when Yuji and Tsurugi destroyed the curses, and most of the city is intact.
Yuji likely heard it, but I don’t think there’s much basis to say he witnessed it, considering the area he was at.

Domain aren't everything. Pretty much all sorcerers with a domain would lose against Domainless Sukuna. If Yuji domain doesn't have some form of duraneg, and some means for him to shield himself from Dabura out boxing him in CQC, domain won't help in fight against him. (Besides, it's unlikely to assume that Yuji would think Dabura doesn't have domain on this own).

This argument is only important if Yuji truly witnessed Dabura’s fight against Maho. Assuming he doesn’t, a domain is pretty much instant death against anyone without one.

This one is actually good argument (compared to above one). But I don't think his blood being able to knock out some fodders indicates it can do something against much more tankier and sturdier Dabura.

Piercing attacks go brrrrr

I think we already exhausted most possible arguments. If you something truly novel on this, share it. But otherwise, let's agree to disagree, and see what staff decides

Fair

 

[Random-Helper323]

AP seems fine, durability and scaling I'd have to be neutral on.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Clears throat Bump

 

[Dalesean027]

Idk why my vote was never counted since I agreed with KE but put me for the high end accepted with neutral, leaning disagree on the back scaling

 

[Qurbonboev]

Idk why my vote was never counted since I agreed with KE but put me for the high end accepted with neutral, leaning disagree on the back scaling

May I ask about your decision on scaling Dabura physical stats(durability and such) to KE?
KE was accepted, Backscaling to other god tiers was rejected, so only that question above remains.
For context: @Planck69 and @AbaddonTheDisappointment are for scaling KE to physical stats, @KingTempest leans to disagree.

 

[Dalesean027]

May I ask about your decision on scaling Dabura physical stats(durability and such) to KE?
KE was accepted, Backscaling to other god tiers was rejected, so only that question above remains.
For context: @Planck69 and @AbaddonTheDisappointment are for scaling KE to physical stats, @KingTempest leans to disagree.

Id say im neutral there, there's some stuff thats iffy and some solid in the OP's section so I'm gonna refrain from picking one defined side for that

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Bumppp

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Bump

 

[Dalesean027]

This thread has been accepted for a while now and OP never updated the votes

 

[Qurbonboev]

This thread has been accepted for a while now and OP never updated the votes

As I have said earlier, there is one question that staff didn't reach consensus on one remaining question

May I ask about your decision on scaling Dabura physical stats(durability and such) to KE?
KE was accepted, Backscaling to other god tiers was rejected, so only that question above remains.
For context: @Planck69 and @AbaddonTheDisappointment are for scaling KE to physical stats, @KingTempest leans to disagree.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Yeah the votes on durability are inconclusive, rest is handled

 

[Nierre]

I agree with Dabura's durability scaling to his KE, otherwise I agree with KT in regards to scaling

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yeah the votes on durability are inconclusive, rest is handled

I agree with Dabura's durability scaling to his KE, otherwise I agree with KT in regards to scaling

Durability scaling has 3 agree, and 1 leans to disagree.
I think it's enough to conclude this, isn't?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Durability scaling has 3 agree, and 1 leans to disagree.
I think it's enough to conclude this, isn't?

I guess?

 

[SunDaGamer]

You'd only have to tank your full KE if you crashed into some kind of strong barrier that forces your whole body to immediately halt. When someone rams into a wall at high speed, the wall can only exert a limited level of force back onto them before collapsing. If someone runs right through a wall without losing much velocity (and therefore experiencing very little change on momentum) then barely any force, relatively, comes back onto them. I'll get to this later because Dabura does come to a sudden halt.

As explained before, Dabura was building up speed, getting closer and closer to light speed and he finished up with a kick which actually reached light speed. This kick harming him would not be a contradiction to Dabura's durability scaling to his running KE, this is because this kick had higher speed and energy than his run did. It obviously wouldn’t make sense to not scale Dabura to something just because he got hurt by something else which is considerably more powerful than that.

This is backed up by the story itself as it says that the thing his body cant handle is the acceleration of light, which explains why his leg got skibidi nuked while the rest didnt, the leg was at the acceleration of light, the rest of the body wasn’t.

And even if you don’t believe Dabura reached light speed with the kick, it’s still obvious that Dabura's kick was at a higher speed that him running before that, since he was building up speed. In any case that shouldn’t be used to disprove this feat.

So Dabura's light speed kick would just scale higher than Dabura's running KE. With Dabura's running ke scaling to his normal durability.

A few things here.
Dabura is never stated to have actually reached light speed, and if he did reach light speed then he'd be using infinite energy since relativistic mechanics are applicable here.
"The acceleration of light" is not a thing, light does not accelerate. What they mean is “his body couldn’t withstand accelerating toward light speed.” Like how Lightning translates it here.
Now, Dabura speeding up is where I have an issue. When he goes for his kick, his foot specifically is the fastest any part of his body ever gets in this entire sequence (that's just the nature of a rotating motion like this) and it's then when we do see the expected environmental effect of moving at Relativistic speed on Dabura('s foot) with him noticing it's now hot and the narration noting the air behaves like a solid immediately followed up by a flash of light that expands into a massive super-heated explosion. Dabura came to a sudden halt and his entire foot plus lower leg got cooked. If he was producing this same effect just with every step he was taking while running through air and he took it with little to no damage as he came to a sudden halt then I wouldn't have any issues with scaling Dabura's dura to his full KE.

On another note, when Dabura says he'll push his strength (and speed) to his limits, he's not just talking amplifying how hard he hits. The term translated as "strength" there is 「強度」which encompasses the broader idea of physical robustness and resilience. That's why Lightning translates it as "I'll raise my body's reinforcement and speed... to its utmost limits!!".

 

[KingTempest]

You'd only have to tank your full KE if you crashed into some kind of strong barrier that forces your whole body to immediately halt. When someone rams into a wall at high speed, the wall can only exert a limited level of force back onto them before collapsing. If someone runs right through a wall without losing much velocity (and therefore experiencing very little change on momentum) then barely any force, relatively, comes back onto them. I'll get to this later because Dabura does come to a sudden halt.


A few things here.
Dabura is never stated to have actually reached light speed, and if he did reach light speed then he'd be using infinite energy since relativistic mechanics are applicable here.
"The acceleration of light" is not a thing, light does not accelerate. What they mean is “his body couldn’t withstand accelerating toward light speed.” Like how Lightning translates it here.
Now, Dabura speeding up is where I have an issue. When he goes for his kick, his foot specifically is the fastest any part of his body ever gets in this entire sequence (that's just the nature of a rotating motion like this) and it's then when we do see the expected environmental effect of moving at Relativistic speed on Dabura('s foot) with him noticing it's now hot and the narration noting the air behaves like a solid immediately followed up by a flash of light that expands into a massive super-heated explosion. Dabura came to a sudden halt and his entire foot plus lower leg got cooked. If he was producing this same effect just with every step he was taking while running through air and he took it with little to no damage as he came to a sudden halt then I wouldn't have any issues with scaling Dabura's dura to his full KE.

On another note, when Dabura says he'll push his strength (and speed) to his limits, he's not just talking amplifying how hard he hits. The term translated as "strength" there is 「強度」which encompasses the broader idea of physical robustness and resilience. That's why Lightning translates it as "I'll raise my body's reinforcement and speed... to its utmost limits!!".

I'll raise my body's reinforcement and speed

Where tf was this when I needed it???

 

[Qurbonboev]

On another note, when Dabura says he'll push his strength (and speed) to his limits, he's not just talking amplifying how hard he hits. The term translated as "strength" there is 「強度」which encompasses the broader idea of physical robustness and resilience. That's why Lightning translates it as "I'll raise my body's reinforcement and speed... to its utmost limits!!".

Where tf was this when I needed it???

How does this affects Dabura scaling?
I assume he would have "H7-C normally, 6-C physically with CT"

 

[Rodriiogo]

Permission granted by @KingTempest

A few things here.
Dabura is never stated to have actually reached light speed, and if he did reach light speed then he'd be using infinite energy since relativistic mechanics are applicable here.
"The acceleration of light" is not a thing, light does not accelerate. What they mean is “his body couldn’t withstand accelerating toward light speed.” Like how Lightning translates it here.

This seems like an issue of translations which should be handled I guess considering both official and TCB don't agree with this translation from lightning, but I wanna note that the explanation for why he DOES reach light-speed is here which wasn't attacked at all (as it doesn't change even with lightning's translation, will explain below):

We are first established that, despite Dabura having his lightspeed technique, he could never reach light-speed because his body can't handle full on light-speed. Dabura, in this case is ready to fully achieve warriorhood, so he decides to shatter his own body's limits (light-speed) just to beat Mahoraga.

He starts at near light-speed immediatly, right after INITIATING his "dance". However instead of stopping there as he normally would (as he could never reach light-speed), since Dabura is intending to break his limits, he continues to accelerate "more..!! more..!!" to reach the light (NOTE: he was already moving at high relativistic speeds here as seen by the effects and how he is running right alongside the light, you can see the effects were already high relativistic speed effects).

As he jumps, he approaches the speed of light (as in the context that he's just about to reach it) and we even get the parallel of "reaching the warriors" as he's about to reach speed of light with the previous dialogue of "reach the light" he did. He knows his body will give in cause he can't handle light-speed but he doesn't care he will reach the light, reaching the warriors. And we even get the representation of him fully reaching as he kicks Mahoraga at the exact same time his own light breaks the glass, as he just "shattered his own body's limits".

I think it is made quite obvious that he did reach light-speed by the narrative, and even by Lightning's translation the intent is that he has never attempted to move at light speeds but now he will attempt that, saying he never reached light-speed there would mean he failed which doesn't seem to be the case. Do you really think Gege would make the implication that he has never moved at light-speed because it was his limit, then make Dabura says he's gonna push himself to his limits and ignore his body breaking... and then not go light-speed? During the scene he literally says he is intending to REACH THE LIGHT. (Which is the most obvious intent of reaching light-speed I've ever seen)

Now, Dabura speeding up is where I have an issue. When he goes for his kick, his foot specifically is the fastest any part of his body ever gets in this entire sequence (that's just the nature of a rotating motion like this) and it's then when we do see the expected environmental effect of moving at Relativistic speed on Dabura('s foot) with him noticing it's now hot and the narration noting the air behaves like a solid immediately followed up by a flash of light that expands into a massive super-heated explosion. Dabura came to a sudden halt and his entire foot plus lower leg got cooked. If he was producing this same effect just with every step he was taking while running through air and he took it with little to no damage as he came to a sudden halt then I wouldn't have any issues with scaling Dabura's dura to his full KE.

I'm confused on what you mean here. Dabura was already at near-light speeds since the very initial acceleration literally showing 0.9c visuals on the page and we literally see him run alongside simillar speeds to his light to potray how fast he is moving (0.9c effect). His leg was faster yes, as the leg is what reaches light-speed, and even if you don't wanna grant that it just means the leg was beyond his own speed yes but that doesn't change the fact that his body was still at >0.9c. The fact he only started to feel the heat and weight of the air near the end is because he was building up speed and accelerating towards light-speed, the heat and weight before that level of speed he is at the end were low enough for him to handle so he wasn't feeling it as much. Then the acceleration was too close/approacing light-speed as the story literally says, that's when he actually starts feeling it because as explained before, that's his body's limits so his body was starting to struggle as he is that close to light-speed right before reaching it.

On another note, when Dabura says he'll push his strength (and speed) to his limits, he's not just talking amplifying how hard he hits. The term translated as "strength" there is 「強度」which encompasses the broader idea of physical robustness and resilience. That's why Lightning translates it as "I'll raise my body's reinforcement and speed... to its utmost limits!!".

Because the main translation for it IS strength. Here's multiple dictionaries saying this. But it's better to just see how Gege actually uses the kanji "强化" for reinforcement in his story as seen by the raws on Sukuna's reinforced arms and yet another example with Yuta and Yuji (where, side note, Yuji literally says every sorcerer reinforces their own body with Cursed Energy, that includes Sukuna, if anything, your interpretation would just support the fact that Sukuna scales since it means Mahoraga had adapted to a Dabura that was just... not reinforcing his body at all but moving on)
While "強度" can also mean what you said, it is most of the time used to talk about the strength/power of something, it just depends on context, but considering we see Gege use "强化" when talking about reinforcement every single time (which actually means to reinforce), I'm pretty sure Dabura was indeed talking about his power/strength increasing via accelerating to that level of speed. I mean his intent was to literally beat him down until his body crumbles by disregarding its limits, why would he say he is gonna be increasing his body's durability right after saying he will beat him down until his body crumbles from it.
The whole thing in context is just about him increasing his strength via the KE's acceleration as that's what he uses to create such a big explosion with his kick, his durability does not change ever.

 

[Sus]

i know its staff only but i really need to ask

if KE is applicable it means he hit infinite energy at light speed

u cant selectively pick at what speed it applies and when it suddenly doesn't

it either applies or not

 

[KingTempest]

This is untrue, the mahoraga that fought Gojo is not comparable to the one Dabura was fighting. Shinjuku Mahoraga is a different key and is superior to his untamed version, so such line of scaling is simple impossible to prove and would only be viable to scale Dabura to 15 f Sukuna. When considering that, there is no problem in scaling a somewhat "amped" Dabura to 20 f Sukuna, there is no contradiction.

Apparently it's been confirmed that Mahoraga's base self whenever summoned is the same and prolonged fights amp him more, so the strongest one was the Mahoraga that Dabura was turning into blood paint with the move you're trying to scale to him.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Apparently it's been confirmed that Mahoraga's base self whenever summoned is the same and prolonged fights amp him more, so the strongest one was the Mahoraga that Dabura was turning into blood paint with the move you're trying to scale to him.

If anything we need to split Mahoraga into keys in his Powers and Abilities section since he doesn't retain the same adaptations between summons and have his stats have a varied rating slapped on them.

 

[Ozcantabak]

so the strongest one was the Mahoraga that Dabura was turning into blood paint with the move you're trying to scale to him.

Well, i'm pretty sure op is scaling Maho to Dabura's rela+ KE, not the lightspeed kick itself. (Got permission to comment)

 

[KingTempest]

Fair enough.
Feats of him shattering his blade and all of his other stuff should shut this down though

 

[ElJoaki5]

Apparently it's been confirmed that Mahoraga's base self whenever summoned is the same and prolonged fights amp him more, so the strongest one was the Mahoraga that Dabura was turning into blood paint with the move you're trying to scale to him.

This is regarding the scaling part which has already been rejected anyways so in that case suure

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Fair enough.
Feats of him shattering his blade and all of his other stuff should shut this down though

Permission

To be fair, Mahoraga was adapting to Dabura further after this and explicitly Dabura notes it adapted after the lightspeed kick nearly vaporized it. Then he starts adapting again while Dabura is in the middle of casting his Domain Expansion meaning for all we actually know, Mahoraga adapted to Lightspeed Dabura's stats outright.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Is any of this ready to be applied yet or what? I really want to make a Mahoraga CRT to fix his stats and shit after Gege's confirmation that they all start identical.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Ok so as to conclude this thread for once (Sorry for neglecting my thread)
Attack potency: Approved (High end)
Durability for Dabura: Approved (3/1)
Scaling: Overwhelmingly rejected
I hope thats enough to call it a day

 

[Qurbonboev]

Ok so as to conclude this thread for once (Sorry for neglecting my thread)
Attack potency: Approved (High end)
Durability for Dabura: Approved (3/1)
Scaling: Overwhelmingly rejected
I hope thats enough to call it a day

Thank God, finally.

Where is Dabura profile though?