Removing Acheron + izumos history EE that's been promised 3000 years ago

[Zanesucksatlife]

As the title says,
History EE should go bye bye and it should be further proof for EE (Normal EE, which she already has)

Now let me get down to explanations and counters..
"But no one can remember her" so let me show something as to Why these justifications suck for history EE.

How can this be history EE if.. Due to its sudden destruction, Izumo's history is all but lost in the modern day. A group of Armed Archaeologists once ventured to the remains but could only find the Enigmata there. Academics hold various views regarding its disappearance, but none can solve the mystery?? This text from the wiki, it proves that Izumos is still there + if Archaeologists are capable of exploring it, it would further (dis)prove that Izumos + all is still there and it's disappearance is nothing but a mystery. Which proves EE + Casuality manipulation which she already has.
"B-but, that's still history EE"
Ok. Enclosed within the plane is Izumo, with its past and future severed with a slash. Izumo was once covered in indescribable wars of survival, as well as once being blessed with glorious days of bountiful luxury... Now, the barren land is nowhere to be found, leaving behind only a graveyard of swords where the past lies buried. What about this?
Planar Ornament Relic Set , this further disproves history EE if there's a whole set , and this said set is describing the lore. So yea history EE be removed as

Agree: Mbpoops Mr._East_Statement ItsMeat SuperNova55555 (agrees for partial erasure) Planck69 Vietthai96 SomebodyData
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Mbpoops]

Yea i agree with this they literally have records of the planet

Izumo was once covered in indescribable wars of survival, as well as once being blessed with glorious days of bountiful luxury... Now, the barren land is nowhere to be found, leaving behind only a graveyard of swords where the past lies buried

And scrolls that hold historical records of the planet

Can someone explain to me how a planet that’s history has been erased from existence… has historical records?

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Yea i agree with this they literally have records of the planet

And scrolls that hold historical records of the planet

Can someone explain to me how a planet that’s history has been erased from existence… has historical records?

high godly regen

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

How tf are u gonna make another thread when mine hasnt concluded and tackles this already? Delete ts

 

[SuperNova55555]

Man, at this rate, all Acheron will have is Weapon Creation and being a bum.

In relation to the CRT, I’m not really sure all things considered. Could just be partial erasure rather than full-on erasure of Izumo ngl. Which is still History EE.

Plus, we are explicitly told of the existence of Enigmata in Izumo—likely an after-effect of Nihility’s EE.

 

[Mbpoops]

Man, at this rate, all Acheron will have is Weapon Creation and being a bum.

In relation to the CRT, I’m not really sure all things considered. Could just be partial erasure rather than full-on erasure of Izumo ngl. Which is still History EE.

Plus, we are explicitly told of the existence of Enigmata in Izumo—likely an after-effect of Nihility’s EE.

“Comparable to zephyro”

Its mostly the fact people present it as the entire history was erased from the point of origin. If thats the basis for her having it then i agree with the removal because how does acheron or scrolls of it’s history exist if the history supposedly doesnt exist.

Im more inclined to believe its just IX powernulling remembrance and enigmata doing enigmata things but eh

 

[SuperNova55555]

Its mostly the fact people present it as the entire history was erased from the point of origin. If thats the basis for her having it then i agree with the removal because how does acheron or scrolls of it’s history exist if the history supposedly doesnt exist.

Not sure why it has to be the entire thing. Really. It can genuinely just be partial erasure of its history. That particularly isn’t contradicted by anything.

Plus:

Im more inclined to believe its just IX powernulling remembrance and enigmata doing enigmata things but eh

If you mean “powernull” as in destroying or muting memories, that’s the same thing. Because Remembrance isss the past.

If you refer back to Herta’s analogy, the “lignification” of the trunk refers to memories anchoring a definite past of the universe, i.e what Fuli does. Enigmata on the other hand is the opposite of this process in a sense, destroying both memories and consequently the ontic existence of this past. Or in other words, the Universe’s history.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Im more inclined to believe its just IX powernulling remembrance and enigmata doing enigmata things but eh

I really don't understand why you keep bringing this up. In her story trailer you literally see her strike the shadow AND the planets and in this moment the ENTIRE HISTORY OF IZUMO FROM ITS BEGINNING IS MOVING BACKWARDS to its end. If we can't even read this... idk. Close the forums. Shut down the site.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Also for real, delete this thread or lock it. My CRT is already addressing this. It's so weird doing this.

 

[Mbpoops]

Not sure why it has to be the entire thing. Really. It can genuinely just be partial erasure of its history. That particularly isn’t contradicted by anything.

it could be partial erasure but what part was erased? Im not against the idea but would we have to change justification?

Plus:

If you mean “powernull” as in destroying or muting memories, that’s the same thing. Because Remembrance isss the past.

If you refer back to Herta’s analogy, the “lignification” of the trunk refers to memories anchoring a definite past of the universe, i.e what Fuli does. Enigmata on the other hand is the opposite of this process in a sense, destroying both memories and consequently the ontic existence of this past. Or in other words, the Universe’s history.

Hmm thats a fair point. I guess the powernull part doesnt make much sense

But the fact theres no remembrance of it could just be from enigmata

I really don't understand why you keep bringing this up. In her story trailer you literally see her strike the shadow AND the planets and in this moment the ENTIRE HISTORY OF IZUMO FROM ITS BEGINNING IS MOVING BACKWARDS to its end. If we can't even read this... idk. Close the forums. Shut down the site.

See heres what i have an issue with. You’re saying it like its total erasure of the history from point A(beginning) to point B (End) and if thats the case you need to prove why the historical records are still intact despite its entire history being deleted

 

[Mbpoops]

Also for real, delete this thread or lock it. My CRT is already addressing this. It's so weird doing this.

This crt shouldnt affect yours i dont see a reason in closing it

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

See heres what i have an issue with. You’re saying it like its total erasure of the history from point A(beginning) to point B (End) and if thats the case you need to prove why the historical records are still intact despite its entire history being deleted

@SuperNova55555 can u explain to him that history EE doesn't need history books destroyed? unless stated as a seperate feat?

 

[SuperNova55555]

@SuperNova55555 can u explain to him that history EE doesn't need history books destroyed? unless stated as a seperate feat?

I mean, that’s sorta warranted for Hoyo no?

Thoughts equals existence. Thus, memory is the evidence of existence.
The Aeon that presides over the Path of Remembrance records all that has been forgotten and prepares for the rebirth of the universe.

The thought of something is equivalent to it existing, thus the memory of that thing is equivalent to it having a past.

If nothing remembers something, then that thing just doesn’t truly exist in the past. That’s the function of Remembrance.

 

[Mbpoops]

According to viett here you need to erase all points of something’s history for history erasure

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I mean, that’s sorta warranted for Hoyo no?

The thought of something is equivalent to it existing, thus the memory of that thing is equivalent to it having a past.

If nothing remembers something, then that thing just doesn’t truly exist in the past. That’s the function of Remembrance.

you're right on this. but izumo's history scrolls are different. they are not remembrance's domain.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

According to viett here you need to erase all points of something’s history for history erasure

1) your link is broken 2) thats probably not what he means.

 

[Mbpoops]

1) your link is broken 2) thats probably not what he means.

Post in thread 'regenerating from past, present, and future erasure'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/regenerating-from-past-present-and-future-erasure.190476/post-7707104

Better link

 

[SuperNova55555]

you're right on this. but izumo's history scrolls are different. they are not remembrance's domain.

The recording of history is an act of Remembrance. Just because they don’t do it with 2-A Ice Manipulation doesn’t change that.

 

[Mbpoops]

Post in thread 'regenerating from past, present, and future erasure'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/regenerating-from-past-present-and-future-erasure.190476/post-7706942

Post in thread 'regenerating from past, present, and future erasure'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/regenerating-from-past-present-and-future-erasure.190476/post-7706949

These messages aswell

 

[Mbpoops]

Post in thread 'regenerating from past, present, and future erasure'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/regenerating-from-past-present-and-future-erasure.190476/post-7706988

Oh and this one

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

The recording of history is an act of Remembrance. Just because they don’t do it with 2-A Ice Manipulation doesn’t change that.

You're kidding me.

So random NPC herta station researcher that spilled coffee on her history research paper and ripped it to pieces cuz it was shit, now gets history EE and rem hax.

Or random girl writing in her diary what happened to her that day, gets rem hax.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Remembrance constructs ARE NOT RANDOM HISTORIOGRAPHICAL DOCUMENTS. We can't be SERIOUSLY debating this.

 

[Mbpoops]

I think you’re misunderstanding what hes saying

 

[MrKerf]

You're kidding me.

So random NPC herta station researcher that spilled coffee on her history research paper and ripped it to pieces cuz it was shit, now gets history EE and rem hax.

Or random girl writing in her diary what happened to her that day, gets rem hax.

You laugh but this kind of stuff is exactly what we have in Marvel

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I think you’re misunderstanding what hes saying

No I am not. You can't equate actual remembrance constructs such as light cones, memory bubbles, memoria and other types of memory-saving shit to a ******* history book or scroll that has no metaphysical, energetical or ANY sort of significance.

You laugh but this kind of stuff is exactly what we have in Marvel

This is why nobody is taking this website seriously I am so serious

 

[SuperNova55555]

You're kidding me.

So random NPC herta station researcher that spilled coffee on her history research paper and ripped it to pieces cuz it was shit, now gets history EE and rem hax.

Or random girl writing in her diary what happened to her that day, gets rem hax.

Why do you think Hoyo references MWI or quantum shit so much? Because observation is the fundamental aspect of existence.

We’ve known this for a while, and even Lygus had to come in and explain it to us.

Strictly speaking, it’s only History EE in an accidental sense, and as long as the researcher remembers it in their head, it’s still fine. Plus, the existence of Fuli and Nous kinda guarantees stuff isn’t forgotten so easily.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Hoyo itself goes extremely deep into quantum mysticism, wherein pretty much all schools of thought are reduced as allegories for varying functions of scientific phenomena.

There’s nothing really “absurd” about it.

 

[Mbpoops]

Also its not them “getting rem hax” the remembrance just preserves the information

 

[Mbpoops]

Based on our wiki standard, history erasure entails the erasure of all points in time, across the past, the present and the future, it is default assumption unless show otherwise

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Also NONE of your links establish that historical erasure requires the destruction of every surviving document, artifact, or remnant associated with the target. The discussion consistently focuses on the erasure of a subject's historical existence, continuity, or place within the timeline itself. The relevant question being debated is whether the target remains part of history after the erasure, not whether every possible record of them has been physically annihilated.

I am getting REALLY tired of this conversation.

Why do you think Hoyo references MWI or quantum shit so much? Because observation is the fundamental aspect of existence.

We’ve known this for a while, and even Lygus had to come in and explain it to us.

Strictly speaking, it’s only History EE in an accidental sense, and as long as the researcher remembers it in their head, it’s still fine. Plus, the existence of Fuli and Nous kinda guarantees stuff isn’t forgotten so easily.

Observer-dependant ontology is different and even if what you are saying holds up, which I really don't think it does, then Izumo's disappearance becomes even more anomalous since it had countless independant observers. Even Acheron herself when she was the only being standing there.

Besides, the existence of Fuli and Nous likewise doesn't demonstrate that information cannot be lost or obscured, otherwise forgotten worlds, fragmented histories, and mysteries tied to to either Enigmata or Nihility would not exist throughout the setting. At most, it shows that information preservation mechanisms exist. The unusual part is that Izumo remains fragmented and difficult to reconstruct despite those mechanisms which means they were bypassed and annihilated.

Also, I am getting CM2 vibes from this.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also, I am getting CM2 vibes from this.

Huh?

 

[Mbpoops]

Also NONE of your links establish that historical erasure requires the destruction of every surviving document, artifact, or remnant associated with the target. The discussion consistently focuses on the erasure of a subject's historical existence, continuity, or place within the timeline itself. The relevant question being debated is whether the target remains part of history after the erasure, not whether every possible record of them has been physically annihilated.

Based on our wiki standard, history erasure entails the erasure of all points in time, across the past, the present and the future, it is default assumption unless show otherwise

If the history was truely erased from the beginning of the planet to it’s destruction then those records and acheron would go with it. The fact that these things exist prove that it wasnt completely erased from history and according to wiki standards this disqualifies history erasure.

Also, I am getting CM2 vibes from this.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Snip

Ok then history wasn't erased.
If the fact theirs still documents + logs of said place then it's not EE.
+ Everything in the CRT addresses everything you're arguing against.
I planned this out thoroughly , was lowk expecting these arguments
Izumo's history is all but lost in the modern day.
Word: Lost not erased
History EE is erasure on all 3 points,
No one in HSR (as of right now) has HGR and can erase from history EE.

More over, what you're saying is already addressed in the CRT.

 

[Mbpoops]

,
No one in HSR (as of right now) has HGR and can erase from history EE.

cyrene and TB HGR ressurrection

 

[SuperNova55555]

No one in HSR (as of right now) has HGR

Fuli/Cyrene does. Tho, it’s High-Godly Resurrection instead of Regeneration.

But this part:

can erase from history EE.

Is true. Since they use History (Memory) in order to facilitate the revive.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

cyrene and TB HGR ressurrection

I forgot..

Fuli/Cyrene does. Tho, it’s High-Godly Resurrection instead of Regeneration.

Icic
I lowk forgot for a second

 

[SuperNova55555]

Though I am extremely suspicious on it and likely gonna nuke it in the future, since the minds of the people revived were explicitly not destroyed by Irontomb. And it pretty much was implied that their minds were necessary for the revive. (I.e they lack Mid-Godly in order to bridge to High-Godly)

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

If the history was truely erased from the beginning of the planet to it’s destruction then those records and acheron would go with it. The fact that these things exist prove that it wasnt completely erased from history and according to wiki standards this disqualifies history erasure.

Acheron survived which is why she is resistant to it and she became acausal due to it.

The records 1) Aren't mentioned to BE from Izumo 2) The records could have been created by History Fictionologists afterwards 3) The records could have just survived. 4) The records could be mystical in nature and thus survive.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Again, your links don't talk about the total erasure of all things coming from the planet and that 1 thing surviving negates it.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Well, despite the timing of the CRT, I am obviously agree, since I have been speaking about before with some of the supporters. Nuking History EE seems to be fair.