[Greenverse - Major Revisions] Part 1: Cosmology (Tier 1 upgrade) - Accepted

[Rutæhh]

Hello, this is a redo of a thread of an identical nature where I will be attempting to upgrade the verse to higher levels of Tier 1. It is not required for you to read the previous thread as the evidence provided was frankly cheeks. Anyways, let's start.

Sandbox​

Rutæhh/Greenverse cosmology redo

vsbattles.fandom.com

Spoiler: Ratings

Consensual Reality → At Least 3-A, possibly High 3-A with Statistics Reduction, Existence Erasure and BFR of strange creatures

Spatial Dimensions → At least Low 1-C up to 1-B

Nightside → 1-B (27D) with 1-A+ Power Nullification and Statistics Reduction

Chronoflow → High 1-B

Sea of Dreams → Low 1-A

Outside → Low 1-A

The Reality Behind Reality → 1-A (baseline)

Shimmering Plains / Heaven / Hell / Limbo → 1-A+ (unspecified number of layers above baseline)

God → High 1-A

Profile Changes​

• John Taylor
  • Possessed by Baphomet: 1-A+ due to being possessed by one of the "Fallen" (fancy name for demons of great power)
• Lilith
  • Avatar: High 1-B for being able to easily destroy the Street of Gods. The Street of Gods have all sorts of beings such as Psychenauts who are Outsiders.
  • True Form: 1-A+ is said to be uniquely made and thus can stomp angels with ease.

I believe I found most of everything relevant to the cosmology but of course there is always the caveat that I am merely one man, no matter how glorious I am. As such, I kindly ask for anyone familiar with the verse to suggest any additions or scans.

Thanks for reading and have a nice day.

Votes​

---

Agree:	Neutral:	Disagree:
Re5yh​ Jepilstiltskin​ AyOgUyS​ Godlike​ Secimatar​ Udlmaster​ RaikiKurohane99 (Agrees with High 3-A Consensual Reality)​ Eseseso (Agrees with SpaceMan)​ DarkDragonMedeus (Admin - Agrees with SpaceMan)​ SomebodyData (Admin - Agrees with SpaceMan)​ ActuallySpaceMan42 (Staff - Agrees with 1-B, possibly High 1-B Chronoflow)​

​

 

[Re5yh]

After seeing this, I should agree with op

 

[Rutæhh]

Bump

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Why is the chronoflow High 1B? The scans about infinite dimensions regarding it refer to timelines not spatial dimensions.

 

[Rutæhh]

Why is the chronoflow High 1B? The scans about infinite dimensions regarding it refer to timelines not spatial dimensions.

Timelines = other directions in time which suggest time is an area rather than a simple line

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Timelines = other directions in time which suggest time is an area rather than a simple line

It still does not get to High 1B. It is just 2A.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I might miss some of the scan in the sandbox, but I somehow don't see this scan specifically being mentioned:

But I agree though.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Why is the chronoflow High 1B? The scans about infinite dimensions regarding it refer to timelines not spatial dimensions.

Directions are treated as a fundamental concept for dimensional axes in Greenverse. So, when statements describe “time as just another direction to look”, they are referring to time as an additional axis of perception rather than purely simple line. In this context, since there are infinitely many such axes (or Timestreams), there would logically be infinitely many directions from which reality can be observed.

 

[Rutæhh]

I might miss some of the scan in the sandbox, but I somehow don't see this scan specifically being mentioned:

But I agree though.

its in reference number 5. that scan is essentially the crux of 1-A and High 1-A greenverse lowkey if i had missed that arguing for it would be so much harder

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I believe the Chronoflow should be 1-B, possibly High 1-B, since there's no guarantee the infinite directions being referred to in the scan were being literal or not.

Everything else looks good.

 

[Rutæhh]

I believe the Chronoflow should be 1-B, possibly High 1-B, since there's no guarantee the infinite directions being referred to in the scan were being literal or not.

Everything else looks good.

thanks for your time.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Rutæhh]

bump

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Rutæhh]

Bump

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump hell it is...

 

[AyOgUyS]

This looks good at a glance, I agree for now unless counterarguments are brought up.

 

[Rutæhh]

bump

 

[Rutæhh]

Bump

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump bump.

 

[Secimatar]

I agree

 

[Godlike]

I agree. What about Limbo and the transient beings? I think it'll help solidify your Tier 1 justification.
The overworld too(I think i got the name wrong)
Heaven and hell?(With heaven being described as "above" in all sense of the world, and angels "downloading their conciousness from endless levels of reality to possess people in the night side)

 

[Rutæhh]

I agree. What about Limbo and the transient beings? I think it'll help solidify your Tier 1 justification.

here. i used the scan of the summoning to prove Transient beings are apart of the True Reality.

Limbo is a place or not-place existing outside reality where entities are forced to exist in potential<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Rutæhh/Greenverse_cosmology_redo#cite_note-140"><span>[</span>140<span>]</span></a> ideas without form or shape and sealing them away.

The overworld too(I think i got the name wrong)
Heaven and hell?(With heaven being described as "above" in all sense of the world, and angels "downloading their conciousness from endless levels of reality to possess people in the night side)

i have some stuff mixed up between shimmering plains and heaven so I'll have to fix it when I have time.

 

[Godlike]

Peak looks good then.

 

[Udlmaster]

I agree. What about Limbo and the transient beings? I think it'll help solidify your Tier 1 justification.
The overworld too(I think i got the name wrong)
Heaven and hell?(With heaven being described as "above" in all sense of the world, and angels "downloading their conciousness from endless levels of reality to possess people in the night side)

The Shimmering Planes/the Overworld is what was described as "above in every sense of the world"

And then Something reached down out of the overworld, snatched my mind right out of my body, and
bore it away. There was a sensation that might have been flying or falling, as the alley and the material
world disappeared. And I was somewhere else.

This time, it was my turn to stand in the spotlight. A light stabbed down from somewhere above me,
brilliant and blinding, holding me in place like a bug transfixed on a pin. I felt horribly naked and exposed,
as though the light showed up everything inside me, the good and the bad. All around me there was only
darkness, a deep concealing darkness, and somehow I could tell it was there to protect me, because I
was not worthy or strong enough to see what lay beyond my small pool of light. But I could sense that I
was not alone, that to either side of me there were vast and powerful presences, two great armies
assembled on an endless unseen plain. There was a feeling of restless movement, and what might have
been the fluttering and flapping of wings. My mind, or more likely my soul, had been hijacked. Brought
into the over-world, the boundaries of the immaterial. The over-world wasn't Heaven or Hell, but it was
said you could see them both from there.

"I'm not," I said shortly. "The last time I tried to use my gift, the angels ripped me right out of my head
and hauled me up into the shimmering realms to interrogate me. I was lucky to get away with my thoughts
intact, and I daren't risk it again. We're going to have to solve this case the old-fashioned way."

“Something’s happening,” said Dead Boy, after a while. “I can feel
energies forming all around us. I can See…I can See avenues opening up,
levels of reality unfolding like the petals of a flower, more levels, more and
more…I can See further than I ever could before…and I don’t like it. It
scares me. It’s too big…”
“Look away,” I said sharply. “Shut down your Sight and reinforce your
mental barriers. Concentrate on the summoning.”
“I can feel something,” said Julien.
“Don’t,” I said.
Dead Boy and Julien both had their eyes squeezed shut now, beads of
sweat standing out on their strained faces. I kept my eyes open. One of us
had to, and I was more used to Seeing the unseen realms. I still kept my
mental barriers firmly in place. There were things none of us could afford to
see, if we wished to remain in the mortal world. The glory of the
shimmering plains is not for mortals. By now we could all feel Something
approaching, from a direction we all instinctively recognised but couldn’t
identify. It felt like above, in all senses of the word.

The Downloading their consciousness was from Stack! the Magnificent & Klatu

Stack! The Magnificient; a more or less humanoid alien
who claimed to be slumming it from a higher dimension.

And the Afterlifes are beyond the Higher Dimensions as we find out from him:

I regarded him thoughtfully. “Are you saying you know What Comes
Next?”
Stack! squirmed uncomfortably, which given his rather fluid shape was a
somewhat disturbing sight. “Well, no, not as such. I may be from a higher
dimension, but not that high.”

Klatu says it explicitly

Klatu, the Alien from Dimension X…Thinks he’s so big time, just because he’s downloading his consciousness
from another reality…I could tell you a few things about that pokey little body he’s chosen to inhabit…

--

I agree with the revision, I think 1-A+ is actually lower than what they are but I think it'd be better to get this done.

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with Spaceman on the Chronoflow, not totally sure about the layers above 1-A being infinite, rest looks good.

 

[SomebodyData]

I believe the Chronoflow should be 1-B, possibly High 1-B, since there's no guarantee the infinite directions being referred to in the scan were being literal or not.

Everything else looks good.

Think Spaceman's take is a good reading on the situation, please put me in the same category of agreement.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Oops, I thought it was already a three staff votes.

Think Spaceman's take is a good reading on the situation, please put me in the same category of agreement.

Could you please tag another staff member here?

 

[Udlmaster]

I have absolutely no idea why the Higher dimensions are being treated as if they are dimensions and not R>F since that's how the series treats Higher dimensionality.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I have absolutely no idea why the Higher dimensions are being treated as if they are dimensions and not R>F since that's how the series treats Higher dimensionality.

Yeah, the number of times Green uses the “chalk drawing” (it's practically describing lower realities as insignificant or barely existent from the viewpoint of a superior level of existence. And iirc, this isn't even the same thing as his usual two-dimensional comparisons, since Green already uses analogies like “photographs” for that kind of relationship) analogy and the whole Real and Unreal shennanigan from the perspective of higher beings is honestly too many to ignore. Saying it isn't R>F is honestly weird.

That said, I guess VSB doesn't really view it that way, considering previous threads seemed fairly opposed to that interpretation.

 

[Deonment]

Not touching the rest of the thread and I'm ignoring any issues to do with antifeats for the moment to give out a thing on our standards.

Yeah, the number of times Green uses the “chalk drawing” (it's practically describing lower realities as insignificant or barely existent from the viewpoint of a superior level of existence. And iirc, this isn't even the same thing as his usual two-dimensional comparisons, since Green already uses analogies like “photographs” for that kind of relationship) analogy and the whole Real and Unreal shennanigan from the perspective of higher beings is honestly too many to ignore. Saying it isn't R>F is honestly weird.

That said, I guess VSB doesn't really view it that way, considering previous threads seemed fairly opposed to that interpretation.

It depends upon whether the lower-dimensional beings are literally chalk drawings/photographs/what have you in relation to the higher reality, as in, if they somehow manage to manifest within the 3rd dimension or any other kind of higher dimension, are they depicted as such and do they exist as such. If so such a relationship is only that of higher dimension and lower dimension as there exists a physical relation between the two dimensions, ergo, not 1-A gap.

If these chalk drawings and photographs and what have you are instead metaphor for or the medium by which these entities are conveyed (to use a comparison, the characters within a book are fictional, but the ink on the pages is not, and acts as the medium which conveys their existence to us, rather than those characters being or residing somewhere within the ink), then yes it likely could be 1-A. But the issue of antifeats arises if any 2D or lesser being manages to rise into 3D of their own accord then that's an antifeat that shoots down the possibility, if a higher-dimensional being manages to descend into 3D reality without "reducing" their being to 3D or creating a 3D avatar analogue for them to control, then that's an antifeat for any R>F gap between dimensions, so on and so forth.

But quite honestly, that's a matter for another thread altogether, seeing as how this one is already completely accepted and what have you

 

[Rutæhh]

It depends upon whether the lower-dimensional beings are literally chalk drawings/photographs/what have you in relation to the higher reality, as in, if they somehow manage to manifest within the 3rd dimension or any other kind of higher dimension, are they depicted as such and do they exist as such. If so such a relationship is only that of higher dimension and lower dimension as there exists a physical relation between the two dimensions, ergo, not 1-A gap.

If these chalk drawings and photographs and what have you are instead metaphor for or the medium by which these entities are conveyed (to use a comparison, the characters within a book are fictional, but the ink on the pages is not, and acts as the medium which conveys their existence to us, rather than those characters being or residing somewhere within the ink), then yes it likely could be 1-A. But the issue of antifeats arises if any 2D or lesser being manages to rise into 3D of their own accord then that's an antifeat that shoots down the possibility, if a higher-dimensional being manages to descend into 3D reality without "reducing" their being to 3D or creating a 3D avatar analogue for them to control, then that's an antifeat for any R>F gap between dimensions, so on and so forth.

it can refer to 1-A jumps as Green does use the analogue for stuff like the immaterial. it really depends on what Green is talking about, the surrounding context and if its consistent in his other works.

I have my own grievances trying to do so with lower levels (like Outside and the Nightside) but I don't really want to argue about it in this thread. also...

But quite honestly, that's a matter for another thread altogether, seeing as how this one is already completely accepted and what have you

dont I need like 4 votes to get this accepted?

 

[Deonment]

dont I need like 4 votes to get this accepted?

Miscounted the amount of staff, but also no, you only need 3

 

[Udlmaster]

It depends upon whether the lower-dimensional beings are literally chalk drawings/photographs/what have you in relation to the higher reality, as in, if they somehow manage to manifest within the 3rd dimension or any other kind of higher dimension, are they depicted as such and do they exist as such. If so such a relationship is only that of higher dimension and lower dimension as there exists a physical relation between the two dimensions, ergo, not 1-A gap.

They are from a Higher Reality, here's some of the statements:

I knew what it was, what it had to be. I recognised the signs. A psychenaut; a traveller from some higher or lower dimension. An intruder that could not be stopped or turned aside because it was either too real or not real enough to be affected by human powers.

These lower dimensional Psychenauts were able to be just willed out of the Hall:

She stood proudly in a shimmering circle of protection, magnificently angry, forcing back the psychenaut intrusions by sheer force of will. She had an aboriginal pointing bone, and in whichever direction she trained it the animating forces were thrust out of the material world.

Soon a Higher Dimensional one shows up and no one can do anything about it:

Something finally materialised in the Great Auction Hall with us, so huge and powerful it hurt our minds even to think about it, drawing everything towards it like a massive gravity well. It was too Real for our limited reality; so Real it sucked everything else into it.

The Presence settled heavily into our world, spreading out in directions we couldn't even name; something Huge and Vast downloaded from a higher dimension. Its thoughts smashed into everyone's minds, as harsh and merciless as a spotlight, searching for the single significant thing that had brought it to this petty, limited place.

The pull of the gravity well was growing steadily stronger. Details of this world's reality were being stripped away and sucked in, absorbed by the Presence. Not because it chose to, but just because of what it was. The teddy bears lumbered towards it, drawn by some inexorable summons, only to fall one by one to the floor, reduced to just toy bears again. Terrible changes swept through those people closest to the Presence. Suddenly, some could only be seen from the back, no matter which way you looked at them. Faces lost their individuality, becoming blank and generic. Details of clothing disappeared as though smoothed away by an unseen hand, then lost their colour. People became black-and-white two-dimensional photographs, and finally just chalk drawings, until all they were was sucked into the gravity well. Stripped of everything that made them real.

No one was even able to stop the Higher Dimensional Psychenaut, even John. The only thing they could do was to basically destroy the thing it was after, when it was destroyed, it just left.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

This is one of those situations where the verse first gives you many reasons to believe it just uses higher dimensions as analogy but the actual difference is a qualitative one, just to later shatter that notion with Size differences.

Anyways.
1. Both this and this scan suggest infinite size, so Consensual Reality should just be straight up High 3-A.
2. Chronoflow should be a solid High 1-B since this scan makes it clear those directions refer to those different from the one direction of "Past -> Present -> Future".
3. Since the Sea of Dreams seems to have some false R>F going on, where a person becomes "more real" but also "larger", Low 1-A should be fine.
4. The Creator being beyond the concept of Reality and Unreality should already be a clear-cut High 1-A.


If I didn't comment on something, it means I agree.

 

[Eseseso]

I have absolutely no idea why the Higher dimensions are being treated as if they are dimensions and not R>F since that's how the series treats Higher dimensionality.

I mean, Honkai does it as well but since it has anti-feats we don't treat it as such.

 

[Deonment]

snip

How did the lower-dimensional one reach reality, otherwise without a mechanic that's an antifeat
The higher-dimensional one seems like the being itself manifested, rather than manifesting an avatar through which to act upon reality or what have you, and that's an antifeat

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

The higher-dimensional one seems like the being itself manifested, rather than manifesting an avatar through which to act upon reality or what have you, and that's an antifeat

It's by manifesting themselves through three-dimensional bodies. It's practically the same as creating an avatar, just that they inhabit said avatar. They can't simply force their way into reality in naked their true forms, because doing so would literally... literally destroy reality.

And even when constrained within those manifestations, they're still described as being more real than anything else. Their mere presence gradually drains the “realness” from reality itself, reducing things step by step from a fully real existence, to something akin to a two-dimensional photograph, and eventually to nothing more than a chalk drawing.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

How did the lower-dimensional one reach reality, otherwise without a mechanic that's an antifeat

What's interesting is that the Psychenauts of the lower dimensions are implied to be something far more complex than merely standard lower geometrical dimensions. They are clearly not being equated with the “two-dimensional photograph” or “chalk drawing” analogies we see elsewhere in the story.

We know this because the lower dimensions they inhabit are described as “broken universes” that lack stable natural laws, with even Time itself being practically nonexistent. More importantly, Green uses the plural form (“broken universes”) which suggests the existence of multiple lower-dimensions rather than a single flat lower-dimensional space. This makes the structure resemble a hierarchy of realities much more than a simple geometrical dimensional model.
Because of that, these lower dimensions appear to function similarly to the higher dimensions in terms of ontological separation. In this sense, they're not merely lower on a spatial axis, they're entire realities with their own conditions and frameworks of existence (not surprising).

This also explains why they manifest in the same way as their higher-dimensional counterparts. Despite originating from different levels of reality, they're still Psychenauts at the end of the day. The method remains consistent, which that they inhabit three-dimensional bodies in order to interact with the material world. So, under this interpretation, there wouldn't really be an anti-feat here.