The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[MrKerf]

Well, the Murewa interview is out, and it was of a far too forced ingratiating nature to dare to feature any of our straightforward questions. In addition, it seems like Murewa is yet another amoral asshole Marvel writer who literally doesn't see anything wrong with annihilating an infinite amount of sentient beings for purely self-serving reasons.

Given this, combined with the extremely power-tripping cosmology-sledgehammering nature of his Storm run, I truly hope that he is never employed by either Marvel Comics or DC Comics ever again, and that the entire story is written off as an imaginary story that is completely incompatible with the rest of continuity, but with much of the horribly proudly amoral editorial management of Marvel Comics still in place, who knows?

X-Men Monday #343 – Murewa Ayodele Reflects on ‘Storm’, ‘Rogue Storm’, and ‘Storm: Earth’s Mightiest Mutant’

Plus, a gallery of Lucas Werneck and Federica Mancin concept art from Murewa's Storm run.

aiptcomics.com

I'll check it now, but... considering he got Best Continuing Series award for Storm... I wouldn't bet on Marvel stopping with him anytime soon XD

 

[MrKerf]

Well, that didn't add clarity at all.

 

[Antvasima]

I'll check it now, but... considering he got Best Continuing Series award for Storm... I wouldn't bet on Marvel stopping with him anytime soon XD

I thought that he was "just" extremely undeservedly nominated.

 

[Antvasima]

Speaking of amoral asshole writers, it turns out that Jonathan Hickman is continuously drawing elaborate maps for how to most efficiently systematically hurt different characters, with an editor enthusiastically gushing that this is "thinking like Batman", rather than thinking like an ideologically sadistic and amoral serial-killer, all while gleefully smirking at the cameras.

Jonathan Hickman Has Never Written Batman, But He Thinks Like Him...

Jonathan Hickman may have never written Batman, but apparently he thinks like him, according to IDW editor Jake Thomas

bleedingcool.com

So the hopeless omnicidal nihilism, the serial-killer attitude toward journalists, the twisting of everything spiritually good and holy into absolutely morbid and depraved Mortal Kombat, the amoral realpolitik-style embracement and cheering for the military-industrial complex, the separatist supremacism and ethnonationalism with enthusiastic bloodsports to the death and people as bad as or worse than Adolf Hitler in charge, et cetera, in Hickman's stories, do not at all seem like coincidences, but rather just how his mind and its "ideals" fundamentally work.

As such, I continue to maintain that his stories largely work like memetic mind-pestilence on human culture and society, and that while he has been the main cultural force in charge of characters that should ideally be extremely virtuous, noble, and aspirational, he has likely irreversibly twisted, defiled, and corrupted them instead.

Structured raw intellect is not remotely the same as genuinely constructive wisdom.

 

[DaReaperMan]

As a wise writer once said...

 

[Antvasima]

Ha!

I do not respect any ideologically evil demagogues sufficiently to actually fear them as people, but I am angry about the way they are allowed free reign to corrupt and defile most of human culture and society. However, hate is hopefully much too strong a word, but anger isn't good either.

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

As a wise writer once said...

So basically Spider-Man, right?

 

[AcidSilver]

Speaking of amoral asshole writers, it turns out that Jonathan Hickman is continuously drawing elaborate maps for how to most efficiently systematically hurt different characters, with an editor enthusiastically gushing that this is "thinking like Batman", rather than thinking like an ideologically sadistic and amoral serial-killer, all while gleefully smirking at the cameras.

Jonathan Hickman Has Never Written Batman, But He Thinks Like Him...

Jonathan Hickman may have never written Batman, but apparently he thinks like him, according to IDW editor Jake Thomas

bleedingcool.com

So the hopeless omnicidal nihilism, the serial-killer attitude toward journalists, the twisting of everything spiritually good and holy into absolutely morbid and depraved Mortal Kombat, the amoral realpolitik-style embracement and cheering for the military-industrial complex, the separatist supremacism and ethnonationalism with enthusiastic bloodsports to the death and people as bad as or worse than Adolf Hitler in charge, et cetera, in Hickman's stories, do not at all seem like coincidences, but rather just how his mind and its "ideals" fundamentally work.

As such, I continue to maintain that his stories largely work like memetic mind-pestilence on human culture and society, and that while he has been the main cultural force in charge of characters that should ideally be extremely virtuous, noble, and aspirational, he has likely irreversibly twisted, defiled, and corrupted them instead.

Structured raw intellect is not remotely the same as genuinely constructive wisdom.

I’m gonna be real man, if that’s the takeaway you get from Hickman then you really have no room for nuance in your worldview. I’ve always thought that how someone viewed Krakoa says a lot about how they see the world and with how your only takeaway from it seems to be “everything about this is bad, evil, and corrupting” I really think my Superboy Prime comparison was dead on.

 

[Entity]

In addition, it seems like Murewa is yet another amoral asshole Marvel writer who literally doesn't see anything wrong with annihilating an infinite amount of sentient beings for purely self-serving reasons, and considers himself openminded for thinking that way.

It seems a rather exaggerated interpretation of what he said

 

[Antvasima]

It seems a rather exaggerated interpretation of what he said

He literally said that it is perfectly fine for Oblivion to murder an infinite number of beings just because he wants to be united with Death.

 

[Antvasima]

I’m gonna be real man, if that’s the takeaway you get from Hickman then you really have no room for nuance in your worldview. I’ve always thought that how someone viewed Krakoa says a lot about how they see the world and with how your only takeaway from it seems to be “everything about this is bad, evil, and corrupting” I really think my Superboy Prime comparison was dead on.

And I think that Superboy-Prime was a deliberately maliciously and sadistically crafted ad hominem strawman intended to extremely dishonestly manipulate the audience instead of engaging in an actual argument.

And again, I do have quite a nuanced worldview. I just have no tolerance for purely malevolent and poisonous amorality within it. If you want to know my worldview from 2006 to 2008, read the first 15 chapters of my story, and if you want to know how my current worldview has evolved, read the final epilogue chapter and the end notes combined with my wiki user page.

Also, Krakoa was not about love as writers later illogically and dishonestly tried to retroactively rationalise it. Quite the opposite. It was such a hateful, corruptive, social-Darwinian, supremacist, ultramilitant, and amoral take on the characters that it is impossible for them to ever truly recover from it.

And I was referring to several different works by Hickman, not just the X-Men.

 

[Entity]

He literally said that it is perfectly fine for Oblivion to murder an infinite number of beings just because he wants to be united with Death.

He says that for Oblivion it is fine to do it because he wants to see his sister, while for everyone else it's obviously evil because no one wants to die, Oblivion doesn't do it out of cruelty, but he too suffers, that's the point

 

[Antvasima]

He says that for Oblivion it is fine to do it because he wants to see his sister, while for everyone else it's obviously evil because no one wants to die, Oblivion doesn't do it out of cruelty, but he too suffers, that's the point

And one entity's suffering justifies murdering an infinite number of other sentient beings to alleviate it? That is literally what Murewa said and strongly appears to believe in, regardless how anybody might wish to rationalise it. And it is such an extreme viewpoint that it makes Nazism and Stalinism look tame in comparison.

 

[Entity]

And one entity's suffering justifies murdering an infinite number of other sentient beings to alleviate it?

Would you destroy an anthill to be able to hug your sister again?

That is literally what Murewa said and strongly appears to believe in

not really, he just showed Oblivion's point of view and that one can empathize with that suffering, even if they obviously think that killing everyone to solve the problem is crazy

 

[Rgerdeena]

And one entity's suffering justifies murdering an infinite number of other sentient beings to alleviate it? That is literally what Murewa said and strongly appears to believe in, regardless how anybody might wish to rationalise it. And it is such an extreme viewpoint that it makes Nazism and Stalinism look tame in comparison.

compared to oblivion those beings aren’t sentient beings, to oblivion their less then bacteria, the average being would be willing to exterminate infinite bacteria to be with a family member

 

[Antvasima]

Would you destroy an anthill to be able to hug your sister again?

Just because other genuinely sentient beings are smaller than you does not mean that they have less right to exist, both according to any morality worth a damn and my spiritual beliefs based on extensive spiritual experiences. There is only one of us here, God, with every sentient being in existence being aspects of Him, and eventually rejoining with The All when their egos are hopefully dissolved and they reach Enlightenment. (Or rather, our highest selves are/self is already Enlightened, but we are stuck in maya/illusion until our egos completely disappear.) I think I saw it referred to as mega-anu (spelling?). Everybody matter.

not really, he just showed Oblivion's point of view and that one can empathize with that suffering, even if they obviously think that killing everyone to solve the problem is crazy

That is still not what Murewa said as far as I understood. He literally said that there is nothing wrong with Oblivion uncreating an infinite number of sentient beings just because he feels sad, and that it is uninformed of us to subjectively think so.

 

[Antvasima]

compared to oblivion those beings aren’t sentient beings, to oblivion their less then bacteria, the average being would be willing to exterminate infinite bacteria to be with a family member

Spiritual worth of existence doesn't work that way. It is just one of the extremely fascist, supremacist, social-Darwinian, and amoral might-makes-right worldviews that Marvel Comics (Stan Lee and John Byrne) has helped to popularise through rationalising Galactus' serial-genocide, which spread across and helped to corrupt the entire narrative setting.

 

[Entity]

Just because other genuinely sentient beings are smaller than you does not mean that they have less right to exist, both according to any morality worth a damn and my spiritual beliefs based on extensive spiritual experiences. There is only one of us here, God, with every sentient being in existence being aspects of Him, and eventually rejoining with The All when their egos are dissolved and they reach Enlightenment. I think I saw it referred to as mega-anu (spelling?). Everybody matter.

And this is your point of view based on your experiences, not mine, not Murewa's and not Oblivion's, everyone has their own morality

He literally said that there is nothing wrong with Oblivion uncreating an infinite number of sentient beings just because he feels sad

he did not

 

[Antvasima]

And this is your point of view based on your experiences, not mine, not Murewa's and not Oblivion's, everyone has their own morality

There really is only one true morality based on the spiritual laws of Dharma. Anything else is just personal indulgence, brainwashing for the sake of controlling the population, or ideologically rationalised complete conscience-deprivation.

Regardless, anybody who rationalises genocide or omnicide on innocent sentient beings is a thoroughly reprehensibly evil human being without any genuine morality, conscience, or compassion.

he did not

How so? It seemed extremely blatantly straightforwardly worded to me.

 

[Entity]

There really is only one true morality based on the spiritual laws of Dharma.

Which is your opinion and personal belief

Anything else is just personal indulgence, brainwashing for the sake of controlling the population, or ideologically rationalised complete conscience-deprivation.

While this is fanatism?

How so? It seemed extremely blatantly worded to me.

He says that what Oblivion wanted to do looked evil to us because it would lead to our destruction, while Oblivion doesn't look at it that way, but Storm could have empathized with Oblivion even if condemning what he wanted to do

 

[Antvasima]

Which is your opinion and personal belief

As Carl Jung said after decades of extensive spiritual experiences, he did not believe, he knew.

While this is fanatism?

Nope. Just observation. From my perspective, it is enormously more fanatic to dedicatedly defend amorality taken to supremacist genocidal extremes.

He says that what Oblivion wanted to do looked evil to us because it would lead to our destruction, while Oblivion doesn't look at it that way, but Storm could have empathized with Oblivion even if condemning what he wanted to do

"Our version of Oblivion is not necessarily evil. Yes, he wants the universe destroyed so he can be reunited with his twin sister, Death. But this goal only seems evil to us because, well, the universe is our home, and destroying it would mean destroying us too. Storm’s most potent superability has always been her empathy. I believe she would find a way to empathize with Oblivion."

There is no mention of Murewa or Storm condemning Oblivion there. In fact Murewa uses the terms "not evil" and "only seems evil" while discussing omnicide.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I have to go to sleep, and it does not seem like we will be able to reach any conclusions here, as each side of the debate are dead-set in their views, so we should probably stop now.

 

[Entity]

There is no mention of Murewa or Storm condemning Oblivion there. In fact Murewa uses the terms "not evil" and "only seems evil" while discussing omnicide.

Evil in the sense of him wanting to destroy everything because he likes it, like TDK or Chton, here Oblivion is just sad, that is the sense

As Carl Jung said after decades of spiritual experiences, he did not believe, he knew.

The wise man knows he knows nothing

Nope. Just observation

Thinking that other ideologies are a product of brainwashing may be referred as fanatism or, you know, brainwashing

 

[Antvasima]

Evil in the sense of him wanting to destroy everything because he likes it, like TDK or Chton, here Oblivion is just sad, that is the sense

It is a far too narrow definition to rationalise absolute atrocities depending on the emotional mood of whoever commits them.

The wise man knows he knows nothing

Yes, exploration of the unknown is also a part of my spiritual beliefs, but beyond a certain point it would turn ridiculous for me to deny all of the information from my sum total experiences.

Thinking that other ideologies are a product of brainwashing may be referred as fanatism or, you know, brainwashing

No. Just observation of how the Christian church and more genuinely fanatic ideologies have largely operated for long periods of time. I have very actively attempted to free myself from the brainwashing I have been subjected to since I first began to write my story in September 2006, but did fall for a bigoted rightwing information bubble after that happened, which I had to free myself from again, and am well aware of that I or almost anybody else can be brainwashed at this point.

I do not remotely properly understand the laws of Dharma either, as they have been set up by bodiless Enlightened Beings beyond my comprehension. I am just aware of that they exist, but given my own limitations, in lack of better options, I have to make do with what I have spent a lot of time attempting to figure out thus far.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That's it. I have to sleep now, and this is turning very tiresome.

 

[MrKerf]

I’ve always thought that how someone viewed Krakoa says a lot about how they see the world

Can I hate mutants in peace T_T

 

[AcidSilver]

Can I hate mutants in peace T_T

Get off the computer, Stryker.

 

[Antvasima]

Get off the computer, Stryker.

MrKerf is one of our nicest Marvel Comics supporters. He simply happens to have a conscience and a working common sense of right and wrong.

There are some exceptions, but at this point, the mutants have largely out-Strykered Stryker in terms of their sheer amorality, malevolence, and sadistic bloodthirst, and they are so "racially" supremacist and ethnonationalist in their doublestandards that they have literally considered people comparable to or worse than the worst real world Nazis perfectly fine to pal around with and let call the shots simply because they are also mutants.

As I think that somebody quoted Miles Morales almost saying earlier in this thread, (real world) people don't dislike the mutants because they are mutants, but because they are almost all written as anything between major assholes to complete monsters, and then set up as some sort of aspirational "ideals".

The entire concept has moved from its initial logically flawed representation of an oppressed minority to an extremely far right supremacist power trip.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, just a brief note that Murewa's entire premise of omnicide-rationalisation is flawed. Oblivion and Death were established to always automatically be together as different aspects of the same entity during Mark Gruenwald's Quasar run.

 

[DaReaperMan]

It's crazy work caring about the morality of fictional characters to this extent. Like, this is how you end up endlessly miserable. Beyond slapping good/neutral/evil in the tags, I legit don't care for the morality of characters because while some are intriguing, most are cut and dry, and honestly most conversations I've had with comic peeps complaining about it go something like this:

"X character is being an asshole again!" "When were they last not an asshole?" "UMMMMMMM... UHHHHHHHHH" "See my point?"

 

[Antvasima]

That is a fair point, but the main problem is that if the authors set up popular evil characters as ideals by applauding them and their actions, it has a proven extremely damaging highly contagious memetic influence on the mentalities/moral perceptions and behaviour of those who digest it. It helps to drive human culture and society down into the gutter. And those who do so mostly keep dishonestly deflecting and refusing to take anything resembling responsibility to not cause harm and lead massive amounts of other people down dark paths in that regard.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That is a fair point, but the main problem is that if the authors set up popular evil characters as ideals by applauding them and their actions, it has a proven extremely damaging highly contagious memetic influence on the mentalities/moral perceptions of those who digest it. It helps to drive human culture, society, and behaviour down into the gutter. And those who do so mostly keep dishonestly deflecting and refusing to take anything resembling responsibility to not cause harm and lead massive amounts of other people down dark paths in that regard.

I've learned that generally the percentages for things like that are like, a lot lower than reading the internet would lead you to believe. It's like with the woke/anti-woke, the majority of people legitimately do not care.

Off-topic, but on the topic of mutants, the only two I like as characters in what few comics I've read featuring em are Magneto and Wolverine lmfao, everyone else is either dislike or white noise.

 

[Antvasima]

Wolverine and Magneto have gone through a different development than most other mutant characters, as they seem to have turned less nasty over the years, or at least remained in roughly the same position, rather than have grown increasingly corrupted.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

There are some exceptions, but at this point, the mutants have largely out-Strykered Stryker in terms of their sheer amorality, malevolence, and sadistic bloodthirst, and they are so "racially" supremacist and ethnonationalist in their doublestandards that they have literally considered people comparable to or worse than the worst real world Nazis perfectly fine to pal around with and let call the shots simply because they are also mutants.

Depiction doesn't necessarily mean endoresement, many of the controversial actions mutants take are pretty explicit flaws. Mister Sinister wasn't only resurrected due to Krakoa's mutant supremacist philosophy, they needed him because his knowledge was critical for the resurrection system in general, and he undermined the system from the inside to its very end.

Think of the theme of Krakoa's downfall in general. The X-Men embraced mutant supremacism and openly boasted of how they were more evolved and would inherit the earth. Humanity didn't sit back and accept this, the terrorist organization Orchis acquired stronger sentinels and technology to effectively evolve alongside mutants, massacring many of them in an ambush and culminating in the ultimate villain of Krakoa being the cosmic representation of artificial intelligence at its peak, which orchestrated the destruction of the true form of the Phoenix Force, which by that point was practically the patron god of mutantkind through its relationship with Jean. If that isn't an in-your-face message about the danger of hubris, I don't know what is.

 

[Antvasima]

The writers attempted to rationalise the entire Krakoa mess by claiming that it was about love all along afterwards, which fits extremely badly with supremacism, social-Darwinism, enthusiastic bloodsports to the death, glorified mindrape, and some of the most genuinely evil people in existence calling the shots, among other things.

And in addition, even if that truly was the intention, it was not presented in a sufficiently blatant moral fable and social satire format to make most of the audience understand rather than endorse it, and it irreversibly corrupted the concepts of all of the characters involved.

 

[AcidSilver]

And in addition, even if that truly was the intention, it was not presented in a sufficiently blatant moral fable and social satire format to make most of the audience understand rather than endorse it, and it irreversibly corrupted the concepts of all of the characters involved.

Literally an entire event dedicated to showing that the Quiet Council's decisions would come back to destroy them via Sins of Sinister. And Mother Righteous taking advantage of their crappy leadership system to gain power. Sabretooth turning the Pit into a nightmare hellhole for anyone who got thrown in there. Orchis' entire existence and the support it had accrued because the Mutants in charge were so arrogant and full of themselves that they began to see themselves as superior to the point of claiming Mars as their own.

I genuinely cannot think of a major moment in the entire Krakoa era that did not involve showing the folly and arrogance of Xavier, Magneto, and the rest of the Quiet Council causing everyone else to suffer. Mutants believing in what Krakoa represented to them and how it was their best chance at having their own nation only to have it be destroyed by the actions of the very same people who brought it to fruition because said people couldn't imagine said nation existing without them in charge was kind of the point. You can acknowledge the horrible parts of Krakoa while still believing that it was your species' best shot at no longer constantly being on the run and targeted.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that those seem like good points. However, it wasn't remotely just the Quiet Council that behaved absolutely horribly during that storyline. For example, the mutants in general enthusiastically cheered for bloodsports to the death, they were onboard with the militant supremacism, and did not protest about satanically evil people largely in charge. And I continue to maintain that all of the characters involved turned much more morally dirty from the experience.

 

[Eseseso]

Didn't the creation of the Pit allow Tarn the Uncaring to kill and torture millions with impunity?