Lifting Strength Vs Punching Strength (Tatsumaki vs Broly | 22 - 37 - 1)

[BoastJr]

I believe matchups with LS as the only winconditions seems very controversial especially if it involves massively higher tier characters (14 tiers above) as proven with this thread.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Voting for the waifu FRA

 

[TiltedFN]

I believe matchups with LS as the only winconditions seems very controversial especially if it involves massively higher tier characters (14 tiers above) as proven with this thread.

Then why exactly did you make this meme-worthy matchup?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Then why exactly did you make this meme-worthy matchup?

That was his opinion after this thread

 

[Delusionaltx2]

You are mixing two separate issues.

I am not arguing for getting mass from energy. I am arguing that 2-C energy output still carries 2-C force and 2-C momentum. The question is what kind of physical effect that energy output produces in the clash.

That is the end of the relevant point.

But we can't get force...at all from energy either unless under very special circumstances

The most you can do is use the mass and speed of the actual blast but that's not at all the same as AP

I am not using E = mc² to derive mass.

You are though? You plugged class Z lifting strength into what would be the mass coefficient while using 2-C ap for the energy coefficient

I am saying the energy involved is directly relevant to the force being exerted. A 2-C attack does not stop being a 2-C attack just because the other side wants to describe it as something else.

The 2-C attack can have class 1 mass and still be a 2-C attack you know that right?

Nobody is really ignoring or changing the idea that this is a 2-C attack. What people are saying is that the mass of the 2-C attack isn't 2-C...

A shockwave is still a force-based effect. Calling it a shockwave does not remove the underlying pressure, momentum, or impact. It only describes the form the energy takes.

The impact is sorta irrelevant since nothing really has to tank anything here as tatsu is doing this via TK

Pressure is mainly an LS thing and it's already been established that tasty has higher LS

Momentum is just speed so idk why this is being brought up unless ur trying to say that the speed at which broly can make these shockwaves allows him to generate force far beyond class Z

She does not have the AP to force that outcome.

She doesn't need AP as she is not harming anything here...

Not in the way you need here. If you are going to argue around object interaction, then you need to stay consistent with the actual mechanics of the feat instead of stretching the definition until it fits your side. The term "object" would refer to a thing with mass that cannot pushback against LS.

Uh no? An object by definition can refer to something that you can see or touch but that is not usually a living animal, plant, or person:

In this case that would be whatever ki blast or shockwave tatsu is deflecting

Because she is resisting an energy mass in motion. To redirect or overpower it, she has to supply enough force to overcome what is already being exerted against her. That is the whole point of AP in this exchange.

But for that to be the case you would basically have to argue that the AP from ki blasts MUST come from their KE rather than the explosion/shockwave otherwise the amount of force wouldn't be anywhere near 2-C

No.

AP is broader than force alone. It can be expressed through force, heat, shock, pressure, and other forms of destructive output. But in this specific case, the relevant part is still the force being produced by the energy attack. Energy in motion creates force. That is what is being debated here.

So your saying that the force of brolys attacks must also be 2-C since they have 2-C AP?

 

[TiltedFN]

So your saying that the force of brolys attacks must also be 2-C since they have 2-C AP?

Broly is literally capable of sending out shockwaves from his attacks that can vaporize characters who are 2-C. Tatsumaki genuinely gets shockwave and aura diffed. The same thing happened with Jiren in the ToP who powered up. His aura literally threatened to kill the characters on the bench. Each and every single character up there would vaporize Tatsumaki with no difficulty. Frieza was able to do the same with his aura alone. Broly absolutely would kill her with any gesture even if she's able to get off her abilities. It simply doesn't matter.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Then why exactly did you make this meme-worthy matchup?

OP is known for making intentional Ragebait threads and his past threads were weird stomps with weird win conditions. Please lock him up

 

[Robo432343]

OP is known for making intentional Ragebait threads and his past threads were weird stomps with weird win conditions. Please lock him up

man im coming out of retirement

 

[GodlyCharmander]

But we can't get force...at all from energy either unless under very special circumstances.

That is simply incorrect. Force is one of the primary ways energy manifests physically. If energy could not produce force, explosions, shockwaves, impacts, recoil, pressure, and kinetic interactions would not exist. It is fundamental physics.

Uh no? An object by definition can refer to--

You are conflating two completely different scenarios.

The LS rule about moving objects with higher AP exists because those objects are passive. They are not actively exerting their full energy output against the user. A basketball containing infinite energy is still a basketball if that energy is not being directed against you.

An energy attack is the exact opposite. The energy is actively being exerted outward and opposing whatever force is attempting to stop, redirect, or overpower it.

The rule was never intended to treat an actively resisting energy attack the same way as an inert object.

The most you can do is use the mass and speed of the actual blast but that's not at all the same as AP

AP is the energy output of the attack.

Saying "use the mass and speed, but not the energy" makes no sense when the entire reason the attack has its destructive power in the first place is because of the energy it contains.

You are trying to separate quantities that are physically connected.

You are though? You plugged class Z lifting strength into what would be the mass coefficient while using 2-C ap for the energy coefficient.

No, I didn't.

I've already clarified the point multiple times. Please address the argument being made rather than repeatedly arguing against a version of it that was never presented.

The 2-C attack can have class 1 mass and still be a 2-C attack you know that right?

Yes.

And a Class 1 mass carrying 2-C energy output still possesses 2-C momentum transfer, 2-C force output, and 2-C capability.

The mass being low does not magically make the energy stop existing.

Nobody is really ignoring or changing the idea that this is a 2-C attack. What people are saying is that the mass of the 2-C attack isn't 2-C...

The mass does not need to be 2-C.

The relevant quantity is the force being exerted by the attack.

If the attack possesses 2-C energy output, then the force generated by that attack is not something a vastly lower force can casually overpower.

The impact is sorta irrelevant since nothing really has to tank anything here as tatsu is doing this via TK

The impact is directly relevant because TK is still applying force.

Whether the force comes from muscles, machinery, gravity manipulation, or telekinesis changes absolutely nothing about the interaction itself.

Force opposing force is still force opposing force.

Pressure is mainly an LS thing and it's already been established that tasty has higher LS

Pressure is force distributed over an area.

If the attack is producing 2-C levels of force, then the pressure generated by that force scales accordingly.

Simply saying "higher LS" does not answer the issue being discussed.

Momentum is just speed so idk why this is being brought up unless ur trying to say that the speed at which broly can make these shockwaves allows him to generate force far beyond class Z

Momentum is not "just speed." The fact that you reduced it to speed alone is precisely why momentum keeps being brought up.

She doesn't need AP as she is not harming anything here...

You do not need to damage something to oppose its force.

AP is not only relevant when punching holes through things.

If an attack is exerting 2-C energy against you and you are overpowering or redirecting it, then the interaction necessarily involves overcoming that energy output.

But for that to be the case you would basically have to argue that the AP from ki blasts MUST come from their KE rather than the explosion/shockwave otherwise the amount of force wouldn't be anywhere near 2-C

No, I don't.

You're creating a false dichotomy.

Whether the energy manifests through kinetic transfer, explosive release, pressure waves, shockwaves, or some combination thereof does not change the fact that the attack's destructive output originates from the same 2-C energy source.

So your saying that the force of brolys attacks must also be 2-C since they have 2-C AP?

Yes.

If Broly's attacks possess 2-C destructive energy, then the forces generated by those attacks scale to that output.

Otherwise you end up arguing that a 2-C attack somehow destroys at a 2-C level while simultaneously failing to generate 2-C levels of physical effect, which is a contradiction.

 

[MountainWine]

Broly FRA

 

[BoastJr]

Then why exactly did you make this meme-worthy matchup?

I really thought I was cooking with this one.

My Bad..

OP is known for making intentional Ragebait threads and his past threads were weird stomps with weird win conditions. Please lock him up

I'll lock you up first

 

[Kachon123]

@GodlyCharmander make a site-wide CRT to change LS standards and upgrade the vast majority of Dragon Ball. Something with 2-C energy output doesn't inherently have 2-C force. Broly does not have 2-C levels of force accepted on his profile so you can not argue it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

@GodlyCharmander make a site-wide CRT to change LS standards

Please show me the standards that dictate LS can overcome much higher tiers of energy.

Something with 2-C energy output doesn't inherently have 2-C force. Broly does not have 2-C levels of force accepted on his profile so you can not argue it.

I'm seeing a lot of Low Multiversal in his profile, and "Shockwave Generation" under "Ki Manipulation"

 

[Kachon123]

Please show me the standards that dictate LS can overcome much higher tiers of energy.


I'm seeing a lot of Low Multiversal in his profile, and "Shockwave Generation" under "Ki Manipulation"

fiction commonly features characters capable of striking with vastly greater energy than needed to lift weights they struggle with. As such, to accommodate for fictional portrayals, our indexes don't assume that a character that can physically produce the amount of energy used in lifting an object by a certain height can also lift it if said character didn't explicitly display such lifting feats.

Broly does not have Universal force (or anything higher than that) because his LS is only Class T. LS is a measure of force

Lifting Strength measures the amount of mass they can lift, which derives from the amount of force a character can produce

If Broly could produce 2-C force like you claim he can, it would be reflected as such on his profile. It's not.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Broly does not have Universal force (or anything higher than that) because his LS is only Class T. LS is a measure of force

So is striking strength, so is AP for shockwaves.

fiction commonly features characters capable of striking with vastly greater energy than needed to lift weights they struggle with. As such, to accommodate for fictional portrayals, our indexes don't assume that a character that can physically produce the amount of energy used in lifting an object by a certain height can also lift it if said character didn't explicitly display such lifting feats.

Where does it say lifting can overcome energy beyond said lifting?

If Broly could produce 2-C force like you claim he can, it would be reflected as such on his profile. It's not.

You think force from a quick shockwave would be indexed in Lifting Strength?

 

[ShionAH]

what the **** happened it was like 12-0 a day ago

Anyways I thought you couldn't LS diff someone if you were weaker in AP? Is the argument choking/space?

 

[Baken384]

There’s a LS Meta hater in here.

 

[Pearly0nsams]

Broly for Qawsedf reasoning if this is not mismatch somehow

 

[Shar122]

Broly FRA

 

[MrTayman616]

I don't remember Broly doing something that Tatsumaki cannot dodge? (In equal speed, i mean)

Could someone share an example please? (or a few examples)

 

[Cipher72]

I don't remember Broly doing something that Tatsumaki cannot dodge? (In equal speed, i mean)

Could someone share an example please? (or a few examples)

It's being argued that Tats won't be able to do anything to his aura or projectiles on account of them being 2-C compared to Tats finite LS as far as I can tell. If that's true then I am fine with changing my vote to Broly.

 

[MrTayman616]

It's being argued that Tats won't be able to do anything to his aura or projectiles on account of them being 2-C compared to Tats finite LS as far as I can tell. If that's true then I am fine with changing my vote to Broly.

Oh, what i mean is that why wouldn't Tatsumaki be able to dodge? What kind of attack would come from Broly that Tatsumaki can't dodge in equal speed?

She can fully stop his movement, can just send him to space when he tries such things etc etc. Speed is equalized, Tatsumaki should have enough combat&reaction speed to do so while Broly makes the attack itself, no?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Oh, what i mean is that why wouldn't Tatsumaki be able to dodge? What kind of attack would come from Broly that Tatsumaki can't dodge in equal speed?

She can fully stop his movement, can just send him to space when he tries such things etc etc. Speed is equalized, Tatsumaki should have enough combat&reaction speed to do so while Broly makes the attack itself, no?

Broly can blow up his entire ki in a shockwave in all directions with Multiversal range. Even if she sends him to space before the shockwave hits her (I find it unlikely), he can just retaliate by blowing up the planet, causing a mutual destruction. Ki shockwaves can travel through space, of course. He wouldn't die immediately from space.

And he can sense Tats would only need 0.0000...1% of his ki to kill, so he wouldn't charge an attack, he'd just... Kiai.

I don't see Tats winning this

 

[MrTayman616]

Broly can blow up his entire ki in a shockwave in all directions with Multiversal range. Even if she sends him to space before the shockwave hits her (I find it unlikely), he can just retaliate by blowing up the planet, causing a mutual destruction. Ki shockwaves can travel through space, of course. He wouldn't die immediately from space.

From when?

And why would that not destroy the planet they stand on? Unless we'll treat the range as "It instantly reaches the opponent itself", which isn't how we treat their attacks.

Don't we scale the DB characters to their attack speed? So that attack pretty much has equal speed to Tatsumaki, she would be able to dodge as long as the attack isn't destroying the planet. (It's incon when the planet gets destroyed as far as i'm aware)

So i really don't get how it works as a wincon? Isn't it incon at best? Tatsumaki can still send him to space while espacing as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also wtf are these LS rules? Had no idea that we now just accept LS as being able to overcome AP even if there is an infinite gap between them. But alright I guess.

Tornado's sole wincon is throwing Broly into space and juggling him there. She is incapable of damaging him in any capacity, cannot defect attacks infinity times stronger than her, and dies to a AoE burst attack.

The meme of grapple submission works when the opponent is stronger than you but otherwise has no real way of punching back. It doesn't work when the other character has like five different ways to shoot energy from his body that you can't block.

 

[Drite77]

Broly FRA

 

[Arkansalter2]

How often is it that Broly even starts with said multiversial omnidirectional aoe bleep boop attack? Most DBZ folks start with H2H or Ki Blast and never whatever these folks are talking about.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

And why would that not destroy the planet they stand on? Unless we'll treat the range as "It instantly reaches the opponent itself", which isn't how we treat their attacks.

Unless you're arguing Tatsumaki would send Broly 100km into space before Broly's shockwave reached her in 100m... It's hitting.

Also Ki Control. He can simply make the shockwave not destroy the planet but a very specific area.

How can she dodge it if the attack is omnidirectional and coming at her? Is she going to run away as she keeps Broly in check? Her range is a few thousand km, the shockwave would like travel that in a short timeframe given it's range.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

How often is it that Broly even starts with said multiversial omnidirectional aoe bleep boop attack? Most DBZ folks start with H2H or Ki Blast and never whatever these folks are talking about.

He's bloodlusted, if he's restrained, he will just kaboom himself, as that's the most efficient way to get out of a bind.

 

[Arkansalter2]

He's bloodlusted, if he's restrained, he will just kaboom himself, as that's the most efficient way to get out of a bind.

Has he been shown to do that?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Has he been shown to do that?

He can. This is not in character.

 

[Arkansalter2]

Edit: What I meant to say was has he been shown to do that type of ranged omni-directional shockwave? Pretty sure his Ki-Blasts can span that far but his shockwaves? I doubt that. Farthest I've seen is like a few kilometers max. You're definitely going to have to prove that to me.

 

[MrTayman616]

Unless you're arguing Tatsumaki would send Broly 100km into space before Broly's shockwave reached her in 100m... It's hitting.

...Why?

Tatsumaki doesn't know that she can move? Speed is equalized, she's capable of dodging, especially from a distance.

Also Ki Control. He can simply make the shockwave not destroy the planet but a very specific area.

Which means Tatsumaki can indeed dodge.

How can she dodge it if the attack is omnidirectional and coming at her? Is she going to run away as she keeps Broly in check? Her range is a few thousand km, the shockwave would like travel that in a short timeframe given it's range.

Omnidirectional explosion but also very specific area? How does that even work?

As long as it's not truly omnidirectional and destroys the planet, it can be evaded as the speed is equalized.

Her range is far more than enough.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

literally the first time he became bloodlusted after losing his father he literally did this. so its kinda possible to do that

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why?

Tatsumaki doesn't know that she can move? Speed is equalized, she's capable of dodging, especially from a distance.

Dodging byyyyyy? Running away?

...Why?

Tatsumaki doesn't know that she can move? Speed is equalized, she's capable of dodging, especially from a distance.

Which means Tatsumaki can indeed dodge.

Omnidirectional explosion but also very specific area? How does that even work?

Huh?

A blast with a specific radius that expanda in a circle until it reaches the range Broly wants?

 

[Arkansalter2]

The scan provided legit proved my point. I don't see Broly doing a multiversal shockwave / aura in particular. Sure, he'll most definitely do a shockwave but spanning that far? Hell no. Maybe a few kilometers max but it ain't shit that Tatsu can just straight up run away from or dodge and just yeet him to space. Just saying a bunch of horseshit for no reason.
Going with Tatsu, low-mid diff.

 

[MrTayman616]

Dodging byyyyyy? Running away?

Sure?

Huh?

A blast with a specific radius that expanda in a circle until it reaches the range Broly wants?

That's the thing. The radius isn't to the point of destroying the planet, Tatsumaki would always have enough room to espace.

Broly can't escape from LS, unlike Tatsumaki who can just get away from the explosion while sending him away.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Edit: What I meant to say was has he been shown to do that type of ranged omni-directional shockwave? Pretty sure his Ki-Blasts can span that far but his shockwaves? I doubt that. Farthest I've seen is like a few kilometers max. You're definitely going to have to prove that to me.

Le infamous Battle of Gods shockwaves

 

[Arkansalter2]

Okay? Prove it that they can do it by themselves.

 

[Purgy]

Tatsumaki chucks him into space FRA