Yuuichi Katagiri Genius Restoration CRT

[GaloreDeer051]

I am making this thread in response to this thread because I disagree with the conclusions reached. I will address three primary points:

1. Academics
2. All Bet Final Score Feat
3. Underestimation


Point 1: Academics

As OP didn’t show what they were referring to about Yuuichi being “not even close to the cognitive abilities of someone like Kei Shinomiya. He has poor grades, and he doesn't show impressive learning ability.” I will assume that OP is referring to these two pages when he talked to Reiko in chapter 29.



Before addressing the claim about Yuuichi's grades, it is important to understand his character. Unlike most kids, Yuuichi never had a normal childhood. He was raised under Taizen Shiba, where he learned about the value of money, survival and human nature but also the value of friends by his mother. After they both died, he was left to survive on his own.



With that context in mind, there are two possible interpretations of Yuuichi's statements regarding his academics.



The first interpretation is to take his words at face value. Even if Yuuichi's grades are genuinely poor, this does not automatically indicate a lack of intelligence. Throughout the series, Yuuichi is shown or referenced working multiple part-time jobs simply to pay bills and support himself. In Chapter 1, he is already working a newspaper delivery job in the morning while trying to save enough money for a school trip with his friends that he promised them to attend. His priorities are survival and financial stability, not academic performance. As a result, he has zero motivation to study or care about school.

In the same chapter, it is shown that Makoto offered to pay for Yuuichi trip but he declined A poor kid who is already struggling financially is willing to spend money he cannot easily afford simply to keep a promise to his friends. So, I leave you with this what’s the difference between a poor kid and a rich kid when it comes to school. The answer is obvious.

In short, Yuuichi low school grades are a narrative consequence of his poverty and the lack of interest in school rather than evidence of low intellectual ability





We now move to interpretation two.



Throughout the series, Yuuichi's main tactic is to downplay and degrade himself in order to make others underestimate him. We also know that his ultimate goal is to destroy Tomodachi Game itself, meaning he views the administrators as enemies rather than observers.



His conversation with Reiko can be interpreted differently. Since Reiko is associated with Tomodachi Game, it is possible that Yuuichi is deliberately downplaying his own abilities as part of a long-term deception strategy. I am not claiming that everything he says about Kei, Tenji or his academics is false. Rather, his statements may be exaggerated in a way that encourages the administrators to lower their guard and underestimate him.



This interpretation becomes relevant later in Point 3.



point 2: All bet final score feat

The OP claims that Yuuichi “does not have a level of intellect comparable to a real-world polymath, and he is never shown to be superhuman in terms of intelligence” I disagree, as one of the strongest examples can be found in the All Bet final score feat



To understand the feat, a brief explanation of the game is necessary. In All bet participants are assigned a monetary value and can be sold and be rebought again by the teams. Players must also pay a one-million-yen fee at the final destination once the game is finished if not, they face a one-hundred-million-yen penalty. During the game, teams are free to use various forms of gambling in order to accumulate capital and improve their position.



Now for the feat. Throughout all bet since the very first poker match in chapter 49 against the other team members, Yuuichi deliberately lost so the others label him as a weakling and underestimate him after that the plan was set.

Later in chapter 55 this is when Yuuichi creates a contract that all teams agree upon. By doing so he makes a no rule game into set rules that would determine the outcome of the game.

Yuuichi planed for victory and defeat using the hedge bet strategy, as the best gamble is to never truly gamble, he created a situation where he could benefit regardless of whether he won or lost against Satone.

The climax for his plan was his prediction of the final score to the last digit for all four teams, whose decisions were influenced by pride, greed, fear and panic. in other words, Yuuichi Katagiri turned human emotion into an equation.



This demonstrates polymathic reasoning as it requires:

• Mathematical reasoning: Yuuichi predicted the final score of all four team to the last digits despite the outcome constantly changing in the game
• Strategic and Long-Term Contingency Planning: yuuichi constructed a multi-stage plan spanning the entire game while preparing for multiple possible outcomes, including both victory and defeat.
• Risk management: Yuuichi uses hedge bet which minimises loss while also maximizing success regardless of the result.
• Game theory: Predicting the decisions and incentives of all 4 competing teams acting independently for their own interests.
• Contract exploitation: Creating a contractual frame work that all teams agreed upon than later exploiting said contract to the ones who were sold leading to his win.
• Behavioral prediction: Yuuichi anticipated how each team member would react under pressure, financial incentives and changing circumstances.
• Information control. Yuuichi deliberately appearing incompetent and managing what information other participants knew about him, therefore deciding what information should be revealed, concealed or manipulated throughout the game.
• Emotional modelling: yuuichi incorporated multiple human emotions such as pride, greed, fear and panic into his calculations and treating it as predictable variables.
• Adaptive thinking: Adjusting plans in response to changing circumstances and unexpected developments, such as reconsidering Kei's role after Kei repeatedly risked his life for kokorogi, while also adapting to the evolving situation surrounding Kokorogi and Saika Kamishiro.
• Interdisciplinary reasoning: Combining mathematical, strategic, contractual and psychological reasoning simultaneously rather than relying on a single intellectual discipline under life and death situations.

To put this feat into a real-world perspective, fields such as game theory, behavioural economics, quantitative finance, and strategic risk management all require combing multiple knowledges in complex and constantly changing system. Organisations invest millions of dollars into advanced models and computing systems to predict market behaviour, yet these systems can still fail due to unpredictable human emotions such as greed, fear and panic.



What makes Yuuichi feat immersive is that he performed similar form of reasoning in a life-or-death scenario where it’s not just finical loss but being sold based on one’s value. Rather than predicting the number alone, Yuuichi predicted how people will behave under extreme pressure and incorporated those human emotions into his final calculation





This brings us back to point 1. Regardless what interpretation I gave if Yuuichi was narratively dumb than he could not perform this feat of this nature it will be impossible. Predicting the final score to the last digit while accounting for multiple teams, changing incentives and human behaviour requires a high level of cognitive processing, planning and analytical reasoning.





Point 3: underestimation:



Op states that Yuuichi “strategies and manipulation efforts often succeed because his opponents underestimate him rather than because he actually outsmarts them”.



To an extent, this is true. Throughout the series, one of Yuuichi's most common tactics is to deliberately downplay himself. He frequently presents himself as weak, desperate, emotional or irrational in order to encourage others to lower their guard. This was already discussed in Point 1, where I explained how Yuuichi often benefits from creating a false image of himself.

However, this becomes increasingly insufficient once the story enters Adult Tomodachi Game.



Adult Tomodachi Game is not simply more difficult because of the games themselves. The people participating are significantly more dangerous and experienced. The participants include professional swindlers, underworld figures, cult leaders and even hitmen. They understand the value of money, manipulation and deception, and are willing to betray, exploit and sacrifice others in order to win. Even Maria, one of the administrators, states that Yuuichi should have been participating in Adult Tomodachi Game from the very beginning.



Now for the sake of argument let’s say making someone underestimate you and believe what you are saying as the truth in life-or-death situations is not impressive manipulation feat.



The first Adult Tomodachi Game was Prison Game, and it is one of the best examples of why he only wins with underestimation argument becomes false.



I won’t go on a deep break down like how I did with all bet but I will give you a simple explanation,



So, Prison Game places twelve participants inside a prison and tasks them all with surviving a “20-year sentence” without breaking the set rules. There are two primary ways to win: either serve the full sentence collectively or complete the objective of stacking 120,000 dominoes together. Prisoners can also obtain a key that allows one of them to escape and get a massive payout, there is an exile system that enables prisoners to vote others out via the majority vote and leaving them with an enormous debt. All of these rules become important later.



What makes Prison Game different from normal TG games is that it is essentially Wolf Game combined with meta knowledge. The participants were deliberately selected so that many of them already knew each other to some extent. In Yuuichi's case, this was a significant disadvantage. Kei was there and already understood many of Yuuichi's methods and strategies due to his pervious lost in game 3, while Kuroki held a personal grudge against him and actively sought revenge due to him getting humiliated by Yuuichi multiple times in the story. As a result, Yuuichi's usual tactic of creating a false first impression becomes far more difficult to utilise effectively in this game.



Even with this, Yuuichi wins at the end while working with Kei as both obtained a key early in the game, but his main objective was never to escape and collect money. His real goal was to minimise the profits of Tomodachi Game itself. If he had escaped after obtaining the key, Tomodachi Game would have gotten the best outcome where they get the most money. Instead, Yuuichi systematically worked towards eliminating players through the exile system in order to prevent the TG from profiting.



Tsukino (an admin) state that this outcome was not the result of luck and that nobody had previously achieved what Yuuichi accomplished and was unheard of. It is important to note that the probability of Yuuichi and Kei obtaining the key was no greater than any other participant obtaining it, also sated by Tsukino. More importantly, it was never Yuuichi vs the opponent it was always Yuuichi vs the system his goal is way bigger than any other player wanting money he wants to destroy TG, that’s his main goal.



Not just in prison game his whole underestimation tactic gets harder from here on out. You have later in the story where it turns out that kokorogi is a traitor and betrays the group and for her master plan she uses Gaku Sabura (A former self defence official turn Pro Hitman who single handedly beat all of All Bet.) to destroy Yuuichi. You don’t use a hitman in your plan if you simply underestimate them. In her group there is also Yuuichi brother Shinji Taizen who knows all the tricks from Taizen Shiba and knows Yuuichi. Finally leading to the final game Makoto leaves Yuuichi and joins kokorogi group. The arguments that he simply wins via underestimation than just outsmarting gets weaker the more the story progresses





Conclusion:



Yuuichi's poor academic performance is not the result of low intelligence but rather how the narrative presents his life. He grew up in severe poverty, worked multiple jobs simply to support himself and consistently prioritised survival over academics. A lack of interest in school and a lack of time to study do not equate to a lack of intellectual ability.

This becomes even clearer when comparing school to Tomodachi Game itself. In school, the stakes are zero. In Tomodachi Game, the stakes involve not only Yuuichi's life but also his friends aswell. It is in these life and death environments that Yuuichi brain switches on and consistently demonstrates advanced planning, manipulation, strategic reasoning and adaptability.

Regardless whatever Interpretation you think is correct what Yuuichi showed throughout the series does not support that Yuuichi lack the intellectual ability to compete with highly intelligent characters. Rather, his actions repeatedly demonstrate the opposite.





Proposed Change: Restore Yuuichi to "At Least Genius"

Agree:​

​

Disagree:​

 

[GaloreDeer051]

Please don't derail and keep it strictly to Tomodachi Game source material and VSBW intelligence definition.

​

 

[GaloreDeer051]

Made some minor edits for grammar and spelling mistakes, updated the hyper link for "All Bet final score feat" to a more representative scan and change the title for better clarity.

 

[GaloreDeer051]

Bump. Any feedback or response on the CRT would be appreciated.

 

[NitroWatch]

What’s the point of this CRT exactly? Yuuichi is already Genius level on his profile based on his manipulation and whatnot from his performance in the games.

 

[GaloreDeer051]

What’s the point of this CRT exactly? Yuuichi is already Genius level on his profile based on his manipulation and whatnot from his performance in the games.

Currently, Yuuichi is only listed as Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation. However, my issue is with the downgrade thread's implication that his intelligence is primarily limited to just these two areas. My main point in this CRT is that the feats he performed for the All Bet final score (Point 2) and other examples (Point 3) support Genius overall, while his low academic performance does not diminish that conclusion (point 1).

(please clarify if my formatting of the thread doesn't get my main goal across because I will make changes if that's the case)

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I'll go ahead and reply here since I made the initial downgrade thread.

There are two central arguments here to restore Yuuichi's Genius rating and both of them ultimately fail.

1. The claim that Yuuichi's academic underperformance and reliance on being underestimated are deliberate deceptions.

2. The All Bets final score feat demonstrates polymath-level intelligence.

The Deliberate Deception Claim is just Speculation

Point 1: Academics

Point 3: underestimation:

Points 1 and 3 ultimately reduce to a single claim that Yuuichi deliberately performs poorly academically and allows himself to be underestimated as part of a long-term calculated strategy. However, there is no actual evidence to support this being a deliberate deception on Yuuichi's part. Furthermore, even if he were getting worse grades as part of a deception that doesn't prove he has genius level academics without holding back.

You acknowledge this directly when framing it as a "possible reading" of the conversation with Reiko rather than a proven one. The argument is essentially: Yuuichi uses deception generally, therefore his academic underperformance might also be deception.

For this argument to hold weight in a you would need to show a moment where Yuuichi explicitly confirms that chooses appear academically weak, or confrism his grades are artificially low. None of these exist in the manga to my knowledge to confirm this theory and this CRT is asking us to just assume the most flattering possible interpretation of ambiguous information with nothing to support it beyond Yuuichi's general characterization as a schemer.

So yeah this point fails since there is no actual evidence to support him intentionally getting worse grades as part of a major deception, and even in that case nothing to suggest they are genius level anyway.

Furthermore the poverty argument in Interpretation One actually undermines Interpretation Two. You cannot simultaneously argue his grades are low because he is too busy surviving AND that his grades are low as a deliberate intellectual strategy. The new CRT presents both interpretations as viable without acknowledging they contradict each other.

On the underestimation point specifically, I agree that Yuuichi engineers situations where opponents underestimate him. I'm not disputing that. But there is a significant difference between deliberately appearing weak in a specific game context and having orchestrated your entire academic record and life circumstances as a long-term deception.

The All Bet Feat Does Not Demonstrate Genius-Level Intelligence

The foundation of the All Bet plan is that Yuuichi drafted a contract mid-game that all four teams agreed to sign. Yuuichi had intentionally performed badly to lure the other teams into a false sense of security and then convinved them signing the contract would be in everyone's best interest. That is evidence of his opponents making a poor decision and not fully understanding how the contract could be used against them in the end. A plan that depends on other players acting foolishly does not demonstrate polymath-level reasoning on the planner's part. Yuuichi's entire All Bets strategy fails if any team just decides that "signing this contract seems kinda skectchy and my opponent wants to win so I don't trust it". Yes the underestimation helps here but this certainly doesn't rise to a level of genius intellect.

Then we can get to the polymath argument.

This demonstrates polymathic reasoning as it requires:

• Mathematical reasoning: Yuuichi predicted the final score of all four team to the last digits despite the outcome constantly changing in the game
• Strategic and Long-Term Contingency Planning: yuuichi constructed a multi-stage plan spanning the entire game while preparing for multiple possible outcomes, including both victory and defeat.
• Risk management: Yuuichi uses hedge bet which minimises loss while also maximizing success regardless of the result.
• Game theory: Predicting the decisions and incentives of all 4 competing teams acting independently for their own interests.
• Contract exploitation: Creating a contractual frame work that all teams agreed upon than later exploiting said contract to the ones who were sold leading to his win.
• Behavioral prediction: Yuuichi anticipated how each team member would react under pressure, financial incentives and changing circumstances.
• Information control. Yuuichi deliberately appearing incompetent and managing what information other participants knew about him, therefore deciding what information should be revealed, concealed or manipulated throughout the game.
• Emotional modelling: yuuichi incorporated multiple human emotions such as pride, greed, fear and panic into his calculations and treating it as predictable variables.
• Adaptive thinking: Adjusting plans in response to changing circumstances and unexpected developments, such as reconsidering Kei's role after Kei repeatedly risked his life for kokorogi, while also adapting to the evolving situation surrounding Kokorogi and Saika Kamishiro.
• Interdisciplinary reasoning: Combining mathematical, strategic, contractual and psychological reasoning simultaneously rather than relying on a single intellectual discipline under life and death situations.

To put this feat into a real-world perspective, fields such as game theory, behavioural economics, quantitative finance, and strategic risk management all require combing multiple knowledges in complex and constantly changing system. Organisations invest millions of dollars into advanced models and computing systems to predict market behaviour, yet these systems can still fail due to unpredictable human emotions such as greed, fear and panic.

Just listing a bunch of intelligence categories doesn't prove he is a polymath that reaches genius level intelligence. Plus we can remove all the categories here already related to Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation since he has a Genius rating for those still. So Behevior prediction, information control, emotional modeling are already covered. Everything else is already covered under him being "At least Above Average, likely Genius" as his baseline.

Then throwing in buzzwords like behavioural economics, quantitative finance, and strategic risk management really doesn't make the feat more impressive. As such I disagree with changing the rating to "At Least Genius" and I don't think he qualifies even for baseline Genius.

At least Above Average, likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation covers his skills fairly well.

 

[GaloreDeer051]

I'll go ahead and reply here since I made the initial downgrade thread.

There are two central arguments here to restore Yuuichi's Genius rating and both of them ultimately fail.

1. The claim that Yuuichi's academic underperformance and reliance on being underestimated are deliberate deceptions.

2. The All Bets final score feat demonstrates polymath-level intelligence.

The Deliberate Deception Claim is just Speculation




Points 1 and 3 ultimately reduce to a single claim that Yuuichi deliberately performs poorly academically and allows himself to be underestimated as part of a long-term calculated strategy. However, there is no actual evidence to support this being a deliberate deception on Yuuichi's part. Furthermore, even if he were getting worse grades as part of a deception that doesn't prove he has genius level academics without holding back.

You acknowledge this directly when framing it as a "possible reading" of the conversation with Reiko rather than a proven one. The argument is essentially: Yuuichi uses deception generally, therefore his academic underperformance might also be deception.

For this argument to hold weight in a you would need to show a moment where Yuuichi explicitly confirms that chooses appear academically weak, or confrism his grades are artificially low. None of these exist in the manga to my knowledge to confirm this theory and this CRT is asking us to just assume the most flattering possible interpretation of ambiguous information with nothing to support it beyond Yuuichi's general characterization as a schemer.

So yeah this point fails since there is no actual evidence to support him intentionally getting worse grades as part of a major deception, and even in that case nothing to suggest they are genius level anyway.

Furthermore the poverty argument in Interpretation One actually undermines Interpretation Two. You cannot simultaneously argue his grades are low because he is too busy surviving AND that his grades are low as a deliberate intellectual strategy. The new CRT presents both interpretations as viable without acknowledging they contradict each other.

On the underestimation point specifically, I agree that Yuuichi engineers situations where opponents underestimate him. I'm not disputing that. But there is a significant difference between deliberately appearing weak in a specific game context and having orchestrated your entire academic record and life circumstances as a long-term deception.

The All Bet Feat Does Not Demonstrate Genius-Level Intelligence

The foundation of the All Bet plan is that Yuuichi drafted a contract mid-game that all four teams agreed to sign. Yuuichi had intentionally performed badly to lure the other teams into a false sense of security and then convinved them signing the contract would be in everyone's best interest. That is evidence of his opponents making a poor decision and not fully understanding how the contract could be used against them in the end. A plan that depends on other players acting foolishly does not demonstrate polymath-level reasoning on the planner's part. Yuuichi's entire All Bets strategy fails if any team just decides that "signing this contract seems kinda skectchy and my opponent wants to win so I don't trust it". Yes the underestimation helps here but this certainly doesn't rise to a level of genius intellect.

Then we can get to the polymath argument.

Just listing a bunch of intelligence categories doesn't prove he is a polymath that reaches genius level intelligence. Plus we can remove all the categories here already related to Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation since he has a Genius rating for those still. So Behevior prediction, information control, emotional modeling are already covered. Everything else is already covered under him being "At least Above Average, likely Genius" as his baseline.

Then throwing in buzzwords like behavioural economics, quantitative finance, and strategic risk management really doesn't make the feat more impressive. As such I disagree with changing the rating to "At Least Genius" and I don't think he qualifies even for baseline Genius.

At least Above Average, likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation covers his skills fairly well.

I think there may be a misunderstanding regarding my argument.

For Point 1, I am not asserting that both interpretations of Yuuichi's academics are simultaneously true. One interpretation is the face-value reading of the text, while the other is an alternative reading based on Yuuichi's established tendency to cultivate underestimation. The purpose was to show that the statements regarding his academics are not necessarily definitive proof against a broader Genius rating.

Regarding All Bet, my argument is not simply that other participants acted foolishly by signing the contract. A central part of the feat is that Rule 2 required the exact final rankings to be predicted from first to last. Even after obtaining the signatures, the strategy still depended on accurately anticipating how the final rankings would develop, how participants would behave, and how the activation conditions would be fulfilled. Therefore, I don't think the feat can be reduced to merely other people made a bad decision.

I give you a question: if Yuuichi was narratively dumb based on his academics, then why did he himself make a rule that says, "Only the player who guesses the precise order of all teams from first to last correctly wins this game"?

It's pretty stupid for a "dumb guy" to make one of the hardest metrics to achieve. Why not a top 3? Why not a close enough guess? Yuuichi was very confident that he would get the precise answer or else his hedge bet wouldn't activate.

(Contract exploitation. It's the 7th image if you want to look, plus a deep dive. Also, Emotional modelling is pretty important, as he made human emotions like an equation for his final calculation. It's quite the feat.)

Back to the interpretations:

Interpretation 1: Low academics does not equal low intelligence based on his life (look at the All Bet final score feat via Rule 2).

Interpretation 2: I did say that what he said about Kei, Tenji, and academics aren't false, but he exaggerated it on purpose as a long-term plan (again, look at Rule 2; it back up downplaying his abilities).

Whichever one you pick, they both come to the same conclusion.


P.S. The "buzzwords" were made as a real-world comparison to what Yuuichi did during the All Bet arc and how it is a similar form of reasoning while in a life-or-death situation.

Therefore, the feat still looks like Overall Genius to me.


Edit: This one is on me. I didn't notice one of your arguments.

You said, "Yuuichi's entire All Bets strategy fails if any team just decides that 'signing this contract seems kinda sketchy and my opponent wants to win, so I don't trust it'."

This is untrue because he made it so that they were effectively forced to sign it based on the scan here under Behavioral prediction. He threatened to kill Mishima (and would have) and proved why a "no rules game" wouldn't work, after which everyone agreed and said this was the best option.

On top of that, once everyone signed the main contract, one of the rules of the contract explicitly stated that you could gamble but they wont be obligated to pay the price of losing if one of them did not sign the document.

The rules of the contract were explicitly laid out to everyone. Yuuichi did not secretly alter the terms afterward; he simply exploited the very rules that all team leaders agreed to and that became the accepted rules of the game. He later used those rules for the final score prediction game against the people who were sold.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

For Point 1, I am not asserting that both interpretations of Yuuichi's academics are simultaneously true. One interpretation is the face-value reading of the text, while the other is an alternative reading based on Yuuichi's established tendency to cultivate underestimation. The purpose was to show that the statements regarding his academics are not necessarily definitive proof against a broader Genius rating.

Even if the points aren't really contradictory this won't prove a genius rating. The broader point if this being based on your assumption still holds true.

Regarding All Bet, my argument is not simply that other participants acted foolishly by signing the contract. A central part of the feat is that Rule 2 required the exact final rankings to be predicted from first to last. Even after obtaining the signatures, the strategy still depended on accurately anticipating how the final rankings would develop, how participants would behave, and how the activation conditions would be fulfilled. Therefore, I don't think the feat can be reduced to merely other people made a bad decision.

I realize you aren't arguing that the other participants acted foolishly, but I am. My point was that using All Bets to support Yuuichi having a full Genius rating isn't a strong argument since so much of the feat relied on his opponents making a foolish choice. This supports his rating only having him be a genius in Emotional Intelligence with Manipulation, not in everything.

I give you a question: if Yuuichi was narratively dumb based on his academics, then why did he himself make a rule that says, "Only the player who guesses the precise order of all teams from first to last correctly wins this game"?

It's pretty stupid for a "dumb guy" to make one of the hardest metrics to achieve. Why not a top 3? Why not a close enough guess? Yuuichi was very confident that he would get the precise answer or else his hedge bet wouldn't activate.

I'm not saying he is dumb in academics, but yeah his entire strategy revolved around guessing this. So given that he prepared in advance to know the answer. That doesn't make him a genius though.

You said, "Yuuichi's entire All Bets strategy fails if any team just decides that 'signing this contract seems kinda sketchy and my opponent wants to win, so I don't trust it'."

This is untrue because he made it so that they were effectively forced to sign it based on the scan here under Behavioral prediction. He threatened to kill Mishima (and would have) and proved why a "no rules game" wouldn't work, after which everyone agreed and said this was the best option.

On top of that, once everyone signed the main contract, one of the rules of the contract explicitly stated that you could gamble but they wont be obligated to pay the price of losing if one of them did not sign the document.

The rules of the contract were explicitly laid out to everyone. Yuuichi did not secretly alter the terms afterward; he simply exploited the very rules that all team leaders agreed to and that became the accepted rules of the game. He later used those rules for the final score prediction game against the people who were sold.

For this it again really doesn't rise to the level of genius. Plus as I point out below, his behavior prediction/emotional modeling these are covered under his current rating. So showing that he has genius level ability there won't change his rating.

(Contract exploitation. It's the 7th image if you want to look, plus a deep dive. Also, Emotional modelling is pretty important, as he made human emotions like an equation for his final calculation. It's quite the feat.)

Not saying it isn't important, but his genius rating already covers this. Basically you don't need to argue he is a genius with Emotional Modeling since he already is with his rating. Therefore adding this won't change his rating. Same for behavior prediction.

To make sure this is clear I'll list his current rating again: "At least Above Average, likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

So when you bring up things like behavior prediction or emotional modeling they are covered under the bold part of his rating already. So they can't be used to prove he is genius anywhere else.

Interpretation 1: Low academics does not equal low intelligence based on his life (look at the All Bet final score feat via Rule 2).

This wasn't the argument, his rating specifies academics so this isn't an issue.

Interpretation 2: I did say that what he said about Kei, Tenji, and academics aren't false, but he exaggerated it on purpose as a long-term plan (again, look at Rule 2; it back up downplaying his abilities).

You didn't show this or prove this. Him downplaying himself later does not prove he got bad grades on purpose. Show scans of Yuuichi's saying he intentionally got bad grades as part of a strategy, and proof he could get genius level grades if he tried. That's what is needed for this claim.

 

[GaloreDeer051]

Even if the points aren't really contradictory this won't prove a genius rating. The broader point if this being based on your assumption still holds true.


I realize you aren't arguing that the other participants acted foolishly, but I am. My point was that using All Bets to support Yuuichi having a full Genius rating isn't a strong argument since so much of the feat relied on his opponents making a foolish choice. This supports his rating only having him be a genius in Emotional Intelligence with Manipulation, not in everything.


I'm not saying he is dumb in academics, but yeah his entire strategy revolved around guessing this. So given that he prepared in advance to know the answer. That doesn't make him a genius though.

For this it again really doesn't rise to the level of genius. Plus as I point out below, his behavior prediction/emotional modeling these are covered under his current rating. So showing that he has genius level ability there won't change his rating.


Not saying it isn't important, but his genius rating already covers this. Basically you don't need to argue he is a genius with Emotional Modeling since he already is with his rating. Therefore adding this won't change his rating. Same for behavior prediction.

To make sure this is clear I'll list his current rating again: "At least Above Average, likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

So when you bring up things like behavior prediction or emotional modeling they are covered under the bold part of his rating already. So they can't be used to prove he is genius anywhere else.

This wasn't the argument, his rating specifies academics so this isn't an issue.

You didn't show this or prove this. Him downplaying himself later does not prove he got bad grades on purpose. Show scans of Yuuichi's saying he intentionally got bad grades as part of a strategy, and proof he could get genius level grades if he tried. That's what is needed for this claim.

Okay, let's clarify something because I don't think you understood Interpretation 2 properly.

You seem to think that I am arguing that Yuuichi somehow intentionally got bad grades before the events of Tomodachi Game and can ace every test. I never said that at all.

What I said is that what Yuuichi says about Kei, Tenji, and his academics is not false, but rather exaggerated.

Yuuichi knows that his academics are poor, so when he talks to Reiko, he uses that weakness as an excuse and as part of his plan. Evidence for this is the scan I added in Point 3, where Kei himself states that Yuuichi never does anything meaningless. (first page you can read the whole thing if you want)

What makes this important is that your downgrade relies heavily on Kei having better cognitive skills than Yuuichi, so Kei making that statement is relevant. Furthermore, Kei says this after losing to Yuuichi in Game 3, meaning his ego had already been shattered and he had firsthand experience of being outplayed by him.

In terms of story context, Yuuichi says this in chapter 29., while the Prison Game starts around Chapter 35. As I said in Point 3, the Prison Game is essentially the Wolf Game but with additional meta-knowledge elements.

Obviously, I am not saying that Yuuichi somehow knew in Chapter 29 that the next game would be the Prison Game and that he would face Kei and Kuroki.

My point is that Yuuichi used both his weaknesses and the perception of those weaknesses to his advantage, which later became relevant in the Prison Game because, after this conversation, Reiko saw Yuuichi threatening Kuroki. Therefore, either this is a coincidence or Yuuichi deliberately chose to present himself in that way.

The question is: why would he even say those things to someone he considers an enemy?

He could have said nothing at all. Instead, he chose to emphasize his own weaknesses. Why, when the story itself states that whenever Yuuichi says or does something, it usually has a reason?


To your next points.

To be perfectly clear, I already know his current rating:

"At least Above Average, likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation."

The reason why I used behavioral prediction, information control, and emotional modeling is because, in your thread, you specifically stated that "he does not have a level of intellect comparable to a real-world polymath, and he is never shown to be superhuman in terms of intelligence given others in his own series are stated to be more intelligent than he is."

I cannot simply remove those three aspects because he is already a genius in them. That doesn't make sense. A polymath is "an individual whose expertise spans a significant number of different subject areas, often drawing on complex bodies of knowledge to solve specific problems." Therefore, when explaining the polymath argument, I needed to include them because those are the different fields of reasoning that Yuuichi demonstrated.

Not only that, but you specifically mentioned a "real-world polymath," and the entire point of my real-world comparison is that these are the kinds of reasoning methods used in real life. Yuuichi demonstrated the kind of interdisciplinary reasoning that you were asking for.

I don't think you understand the insanity of the final guess. The All Bet game didn't last for multiple hours; it lasted for days. He was constantly calculating changing numbers based on games, selling players, purchasing players, losses, and wins—not just from himself, but from all of his opponents who were also acting independently.

On top of that, it wasn't just the numbers; he had to predict the exact order from first to last. Something like that is inherently unpredictable, which is why emotional modeling is important. He treated greed, pride, fear, and panic like variables in an equation, made them predictable, and incorporated them into his final calculation.

I don't understand why you are downplaying that feat as if it were a simple math question. You would need extremely high processing ability to keep that much information in your head while constantly updating it over multiple days and then accurately predicting the final result

What I really don't understand is this:

"My point was that using All Bets to support Yuuichi having a full Genius rating isn't a strong argument since so much of the feat relied on his opponents making a foolish choice."

I don't know why you think the players were foolish. Honestly, I think the other three teams were the opposite. The first thing they did was logical: get rid of the dead weight on their teams. The Game theory scan explains this perfectly. The logical decision is to sell the weaker members of your team and keep the most competent people.

I also don't understand why you are undermining characters like Satone. In the same scan, Yuuichi himself says that his tactic won't work on her, and Satone's main traits are luck, intuition, and psychological insight. What makes her scary is her perception; it's almost like a near-supernatural ability to read human emotions and predict behavior. She is also the same person who figured out Kokorogi was the traitor at first glance.

So I don't know why you keep saying they were foolish when the arc itself showed otherwise. Yuuichi's main outcomes against her were either winning through a coin flip or activating the hedge bet, meaning he beat her through outsmarting rather than simple manipulation.

The manga explicitly states that he planned for both victory and defeat. He prepared multiple outcomes for an event that lasted for days.

(Information control ,Strategic and Long-Term Contingency Planning, Risk management, Game theory. I put them all in order its basically all of Chapter 65 from the start to the end)

Can you provide scans or something to support the claim that the other teams were simply foolish? (The dead weight does not count) Because I genuinely don't understand that conclusion.




My proposal is simply to remove the split ratings entirely and restore him to Overall Genius, as he was before.

My whole argument is that low grades do not equal low intelligence, and what he has demonstrated throughout the series shows that he is at least Genius overall.

I don't understand why you seem so opposed to this proposal.

 

[GaloreDeer051]

Bump

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Okay, let's clarify something because I don't think you understood Interpretation 2 properly.

You seem to think that I am arguing that Yuuichi somehow intentionally got bad grades before the events of Tomodachi Game and can ace every test. I never said that at all.

What I said is that what Yuuichi says about Kei, Tenji, and his academics is not false, but rather exaggerated.

Yuuichi knows that his academics are poor, so when he talks to Reiko, he uses that weakness as an excuse and as part of his plan. Evidence for this is the scan I added in Point 3, where Kei himself states that Yuuichi never does anything meaningless. (first page you can read the whole thing if you want)

What makes this important is that your downgrade relies heavily on Kei having better cognitive skills than Yuuichi, so Kei making that statement is relevant. Furthermore, Kei says this after losing to Yuuichi in Game 3, meaning his ego had already been shattered and he had firsthand experience of being outplayed by him.

To finish this out, I think you just conceded the original academics point from the downgrade here. If Yuuichi knows his academics are poor but then uses that to leverage his manipulation to make Reiko underestimate him that aligns with exactly what the downgrade presented. Yuuichi's rating lists "Average in Academics" so it seems like we agree on this point.

To your next points.

To be perfectly clear, I already know his current rating:

"At least Above Average, likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation."

The reason why I used behavioral prediction, information control, and emotional modeling is because, in your thread, you specifically stated that "he does not have a level of intellect comparable to a real-world polymath, and he is never shown to be superhuman in terms of intelligence given others in his own series are stated to be more intelligent than he is."

I cannot simply remove those three aspects because he is already a genius in them. That doesn't make sense. A polymath is "an individual whose expertise spans a significant number of different subject areas, often drawing on complex bodies of knowledge to solve specific problems." Therefore, when explaining the polymath argument, I needed to include them because those are the different fields of reasoning that Yuuichi demonstrated. Not only that, but you specifically mentioned a "real-world polymath," and the entire point of my real-world comparison is that these are the kinds of reasoning methods used in real life. Yuuichi demonstrated the kind of interdisciplinary reasoning that you were asking for.

What I am saying here is that his current rating carves this out and that does two things.

1. He is already rated as a Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation so listing out skills that fall under this tree don't contribute to him being a polymath. Just to use an analogy this would be like saying a mathematician is a polymath because they have addition skills, subtraction skills, multiplication skills, exponent skills, fractions skills, etc. You are likewise just listing things that fall into the larger Emotional Intelligence category and since he is already a genius in the larger category that doesn't make him a polymath. You covered this in saying the definition of a polymath requires this to be in "different subject areas" and these are not different areas.

2. Since these categories are already covered under the part of his rating that is genius, they also don't contribute to upgrading his baseline intelligence to genius either. He is rated as Above Average, Likely Genius aside from his genius level emotional intelligence. This argument essentially reduces to since his emotional intelligence is genius he should be baseline genius in everything.

So to argue against the downgrade there needs to be evidence that Yuuichi is a genius specifically outside of Emotional Intelligence, and the above doesn't do that.

I don't think you understand the insanity of the final guess. The All Bet game didn't last for multiple hours; it lasted for days. He was constantly calculating changing numbers based on games, selling players, purchasing players, losses, and wins—not just from himself, but from all of his opponents who were also acting independently.

On top of that, it wasn't just the numbers; he had to predict the exact order from first to last. Something like that is inherently unpredictable, which is why emotional modeling is important. He treated greed, pride, fear, and panic like variables in an equation, made them predictable, and incorporated them into his final calculation.

I don't understand why you are downplaying that feat as if it were a simple math question. You would need extremely high processing ability to keep that much information in your head while constantly updating it over multiple days and then accurately predicting the final result

I do understand the situation of Yuuichi's final guess in All Bets, and I do understand the situation. The main problem here is everything that he did that comes close to the level of genius, even by your own words, is already covered by his Emotional Intelligence. Even in your OP you said this about All Bets:

The climax for his plan was his prediction of the final score to the last digit for all four teams, whose decisions were influenced by pride, greed, fear and panic. in other words, Yuuichi Katagiri turned human emotion into an equation.

Everything that Yuuichi "calculated" was based on his understanding of human emotion. These were your exact words saying this, not me. You are trying to frame an Emotional Intelligence feat as a math based calculation feat, which just isn't accurate to what Yuuichi did. He didn't for example, mentally calculate different scenarios or different outcomes for the final order. He used manipulation and deception to force the groups to end up in a specific way. This is again clearly established in his current rating and doesn't justify a baseline genius. The fact that the event lasted several days or that he predicted the outcome to "the last digit" don't make this a processing feat like you seem to think.

I also don't understand why you are undermining characters like Satone. In the same scan, Yuuichi himself says that his tactic won't work on her, and Satone's main traits are luck, intuition, and psychological insight. What makes her scary is her perception; it's almost like a near-supernatural ability to read human emotions and predict behavior. She is also the same person who figured out Kokorogi was the traitor at first glance.

So I don't know why you keep saying they were foolish when the arc itself showed otherwise. Yuuichi's main outcomes against her were either winning through a coin flip or activating the hedge bet, meaning he beat her through outsmarting rather than simple manipulation.

This actually really helps my point here. You are arguing that against someone who Yuuichi struggles to manipulate instead of relying on a genius level cognitive ability or anything else that would suggest he is a full genius, he relies on the hedge bet and a coin flip. By your own logic he couldn't outsmart her outside of his manipulation strategy regarding the hedge bet, and I have explained that is part of his Emotional Intelligence so cannot upgrade him to baseline genius since he is already a genius with Emotional Intelligence.

As for everyone being "incompetent/foolish" I am not trying to say that, but they are all competing against each other and none of them considered a proposal made by an opponent would have a way for that opponent to take advantage of it and use that to win in the end. Against actual genius level opponents nobody would make that agreement because they would realize that even if they don't know exactly how yet, Yuuichi has a way to use the contract to win.

The entire point behind the intelligence downgrade was that Yuuichi's feats aren't consistent with a genius rating, and that isn't how Yuuichi is ever portrayed in TG. He uses his wits and his specific understanding of human behevior to decive and manipulate people but his intelligence very specifically doesn't extend beyond that to anything close to a genius level. Yuuichi does have a high capacity for Emotional Intelligence which is why he is genius rated there, but he is not a genius across more than that.

That is the reason why I fully disagree with the proposal to restore his full genius rating. I am fine to leave this here and let staff evaluate this, I think the case I made is strong enough to just reject the proposal and keep Yuuichi's Intelligence rating as is.

 

[GaloreDeer051]

Ok, I think I came to the conclusion that I need to stop writing to you as if you know Tomodachi Game because I thought you did. There is no reason to make a downgrade thread if you don't clearly know the series, so I guess I was wrong.

To finish this out, I think you just conceded the original academics point from the downgrade here. If Yuuichi knows his academics are poor but then uses that to leverage his manipulation to make Reiko underestimate him that aligns with exactly what the downgrade presented. Yuuichi's rating lists "Average in Academics" so it seems like we agree on this point.

You and I are not coming to the same conclusion like you think we are.

My whole point of Interpretation 2 is the exaggeration of everything he said, and that becomes very relevant later. Trust me.

Let me finish Interpretation 2 for you simply.

Who creates the games? The admins.

Who is one of the admins? Reiko.

Who is one of the admins Yuuichi talked to? Reiko.

Does Yuuichi know that the TG admins love making rules against him? Absolutely yes.

What did Reiko see and hear from Yuuichi? That Kei and Tenji are smarter than him and that his academics are lower than even Makoto's. After that conversation, she also saw Yuuichi threatening Kuroki.

Why did Yuuichi say that? Because this was the only time that Yuuichi could have a direct conversation with the admins, since Kuroki decided to pretend to be TG and make a game against Yuuichi.

What happened in the Prison Game? Kei and Kuroki are there, and so is Makoto (someone Yuuichi stated is better than him academically). And guess what? Tenji was not there. The reason makes sense: Yuuichi himself said that Tenji is smarter than him, and Tenji is also Yuuichi's ally, so adding him to the Prison Game would have given Yuuichi an advantage. Instead, they added the dumbest person on his team.

So, did Yuuichi say that on purpose just to mess with the admins? Most likely, yes.

Did he still beat the Prison Game with relative ease even with those disadvantages? Absolutely yes.

Did Yuuichi know that the next game would be the Prison Game and that it would involve Kei, Kuroki, and Makoto? Most likely not. But he still said those things because the admins love making rules against Yuuichi based on what he says and does.

In short, this is my point. Get it now. There is no need to keep bringing this up in every single reply.

What I am saying here is that his current rating carves this out and that does two things.

1. He is already rated as a Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation so listing out skills that fall under this tree don't contribute to him being a polymath. Just to use an analogy this would be like saying a mathematician is a polymath because they have addition skills, subtraction skills, multiplication skills, exponent skills, fractions skills, etc. You are likewise just listing things that fall into the larger Emotional Intelligence category and since he is already a genius in the larger category that doesn't make him a polymath. You covered this in saying the definition of a polymath requires this to be in "different subject areas" and these are not different areas.

2. Since these categories are already covered under the part of his rating that is genius, they also don't contribute to upgrading his baseline intelligence to genius either. He is rated as Above Average, Likely Genius aside from his genius level emotional intelligence. This argument essentially reduces to since his emotional intelligence is genius he should be baseline genius in everything.

So to argue against the downgrade there needs to be evidence that Yuuichi is a genius specifically outside of Emotional Intelligence, and the above doesn't do that.

I do understand the situation of Yuuichi's final guess in All Bets, and I do understand the situation. The main problem here is everything that he did that comes close to the level of genius, even by your own words, is already covered by his Emotional Intelligence. Even in your OP you said this about All Bets:

Everything that Yuuichi "calculated" was based on his understanding of human emotion. These were your exact words saying this, not me. You are trying to frame an Emotional Intelligence feat as a math based calculation feat, which just isn't accurate to what Yuuichi did. He didn't for example, mentally calculate different scenarios or different outcomes for the final order. He used manipulation and deception to force the groups to end up in a specific way. This is again clearly established in his current rating and doesn't justify a baseline genius. The fact that the event lasted several days or that he predicted the outcome to "the last digit" don't make this a processing feat like you seem to think.

This actually really helps my point here. You are arguing that against someone who Yuuichi struggles to manipulate instead of relying on a genius level cognitive ability or anything else that would suggest he is a full genius, he relies on the hedge bet and a coin flip. By your own logic he couldn't outsmart her outside of his manipulation strategy regarding the hedge bet, and I have explained that is part of his Emotional Intelligence so cannot upgrade him to baseline genius since he is already a genius with Emotional Intelligence.

ok, this is going to be the all-for-one package deal.

I'm going to be strictly honest with you. Why do you keep downplaying this whole arc? Not just the final score, but everything, down to the players' actions and especially Yuuichi. You have a grudge like he did something to you personally.

You keep spamming this one line: emotional intelligence this, emotional intelligence that. My argument is getting stronger because you keep saying "emotional intelligence" in every reply. Let's be real, I don't know what you're on about, and I don't think you do either.

The arc shows that this is, if not the hardest challenge for Yuuichi besides the final arc. Not only does Yuuichi himself say he is bad at gambling, but he also has a pure hatred towards gamblers.

On top of that, please stop downplaying Satone. It actually backs up the point I keep making. Yuuichi's main tactic won't work on her, so he needs to do something completely different. That's why I said outsmarting. I am literally showing you something that Yuuichi normally does not do in a game he hates. Like, what are you doing here?

One thing I noticed is that you don't provide scans, and I know why, so I have to do it for you. I got this personally for you, so say thank you to Mr. Deer.

Here are the scans. Please read them because I don't know if you did for my whole thread. (I only added the important parts no need to show the whole game)

At the very beginning of the arc, after Yuuichi loses in a poker match (he did this on purpose if you read my thread), Kei takes over. You and I both know he is the pinnacle of genius. You said yourself that he has greater cognitive skills. That's a fact from you.

And guess what he does? That's right, he does calculations on the poker cards being shuffled to find the Joker. Kei himself said that spotting the Joker card in a Hindu shuffle is not impossible, but it becomes difficult.

He does win at the end, but not because of the calculations. He wins because Kamishiro decided not to show his straight flush, a hand stronger than Kei's. In other words, Kamishiro let Kei win on purpose.

And guess who stopped the game from proceeding to the next round? Yes, it's Yuuichi, because he knew something was off and that Kei would definitely lose the next round.

Now let's get back to this.

You're seriously saying to me that Yuuichi did all of this with emotional intelligence alone? There is no way you are saying that with confidence right now (and no scans). Yuuichi is "Above Average, likely Genius," and there is a good reason why that "likely" was not removed in your downgrade thread.

Let's look at the narrative.

Kei tried to do pure calculations. We know Kei is a genius based on his self-proclamation, other characters' statements, and feats backing it up. So what Kei did in that poker match was simple:

• calculating,
• tracking card order,
• determining probabilities,
• understanding shuffling methods,
• predicting outcomes mathematically.

This is my conclusion from that feat, so obviously that means Kei has high analytical abilities. Pretty straightforward. You must agree with this because he has greater cognitive skills, like you said. These are your words, not mine.

Now why are you downplaying the final score?

What Yuuichi did is the exact same thing as Kei, but something greater. The story shows that pure mathematical calculations are impossible. Kei lost, the guy who is pure raw IQ, the prodigy, the guy who is the greatest academically.

So how did Yuuichi succeed while Kei failed?

Yuuichi did what Kei did. He took Kei's skills and then used his own.

Realistically, the final score is impossible to calculate because of human emotions. Human emotions basically look like this: ∞ because they are constantly changing.

But Yuuichi saw them like this: 1, or 2, maybe 30 something like that you following.

So what I am saying here is that if he was simply a genius in emotional intelligence, then he cannot perform this feat. If he was only Above Average in IQ and Average in academics, you need to explain how this feat is even possible. You need the full package.

Remember when I talked to you about exaggeration before?

My whole point is this: if Yuuichi is only Above Average in IQ, Average in academics, and below Makoto academically, then of course Makoto should be able to do this too, right? Wrong.

What about Kei and Tenji? Also wrong.

The story itself shows that Kei couldn't do it.

But the story showed Yuuichi doing what Kei does best and what he himself does best, and then accurately guessing the final score to the last digit, from first to last, over multiple days.

He had to keep that much information in his head while accounting for wins, losses, selling, purchases, and how the game progressed, all while human emotions affected the outcome, something Kei could not see.

The best part of this feat is that Yuuichi himself wrote into the rules of the final score game that in order to win, you must get the order correct from first to last.

So please, when you reply, stop saying stuff like:

"Uhm, actually, that proves my point because you keep saying emotional intelligence and stop acting like this feat is cool."

uh huh, yeah. If Kei can't do it but Yuuichi can, then I think it's pretty cool.

simple, if you don't know Tomodachi Game, just ask me and I will provide you a scan.

The entire point behind the intelligence downgrade was that Yuuichi's feats aren't consistent with a genius rating, and that isn't how Yuuichi is ever portrayed in TG. He uses his wits and his specific understanding of human behevior to decive and manipulate people but his intelligence very specifically doesn't extend beyond that to anything close to a genius level. Yuuichi does have a high capacity for Emotional Intelligence which is why he is genius rated there, but he is not a genius across more than that.

is this enough for you? or nah

As for everyone being "incompetent/foolish" I am not trying to say that, but they are all competing against each other and none of them considered a proposal made by an opponent would have a way for that opponent to take advantage of it and use that to win in the end. Against actual genius level opponents nobody would make that agreement because they would realize that even if they don't know exactly how yet, Yuuichi has a way to use the contract to win.

Oh, I didn't know you were the author of Tomodachi Game.

Be very careful how you word that. I think you and I both know what you mean by "actual genius opponents."

Like I said, keep it to Tomodachi Game source material. I don't want you to derail this thread.

We also know that intelligence is subjective, and the wiki knows this better than anyone.

Intelligence Quotients​

An Intelligence Quotient, or IQ is a scientific attempt to score the intelligence of individuals in real life through testing. It is a common occurrence in fiction for authors to give their characters IQ scores, often exceptionally high ones, and while some scientists believe IQ has validity in real life, it makes for a very poor measuring stick in fiction. An author can give a character as ridiculously high of an IQ as they want, whether it be over 200, 314, 5,000, or even 10^30, but without feats, these numbers are meaningless, only acting as confirmation that they are much smarter than normal humans.

Even if that was not the case, as different fictions give their characters different ratings, they are completely useless for comparing intelligence between them. It would be like trying to compare the power levels in Nanatsu no Taizai to those in Dragon Ball to determine their power in relation to each other, when both verses use power levels differently and have completely different scales of power. This is without getting into the fact that many scientists find IQ to be a poor judge of intelligence for the same reasons that intelligence is so hard to quantify in versus debating, among others.

Some verses, such as DC Comics, have their own internal intelligence ranking systems. It is the same situation with these as it is with IQ - without feats, these rankings mean little.

One should not automatically assign statements of intelligence within a story itself without looking at if a character's feats and behaviour fits with it according to our standards.

Do not go against the author's definition or portrayal of a genius. Like I said again, you didn't provide scans when you called the opponents foolish, and now you're backtracking and saying they are not, so I gave you a scan right here.

Kamishiro is stated by Ren (an admin) to be a charismatic genius. And don't worry, it's not just a statement. Kamishiro himself says that he possesses divine foresight and absolute insight into human behavior through his "God Eye," (he showed it in the poker match with kei and showed it in old maid against yuuichi) and ofc none other than Yuuichi is portrayed as superior to him.

(You can think Kamishiro is a genius or not; it doesn't matter.)

Please refrain from going to other verses or using outside standards to justify a downgrade because that is not welcome here.

If you cannot provide a direct answer to my questions or to the thread with a scan, then you're welcome to simply say so. It's okay.

That is the reason why I fully disagree with the proposal to restore his full genius rating. I am fine to leave this here and let staff evaluate this, I think the case I made is strong enough to just reject the proposal and keep Yuuichi's Intelligence rating as is.

That is the reason why I fully disagree with your downgrade thread and his current rating. I am completely fine with you leaving the thread and letting me continue making my case to the staff. (I put you in disagree don't worry)

So basically, get rid of all those split ratings and make him Overall Genius because, honestly, the story makes zero sense otherwise.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Yuuichi's rating was a bit generalized upon just his emotional aspects of intelligence and his usage of "dark triads"iac feats to a "Genius" overall, which was false and rightly pointed out by Huntsman in his earlier thread. The generalization of his rating was rightfully removed and his below par academics and general intelligence in several cognitive aspects than what's actually needed for a genius rating was addressed as well.

This thread doesn't really "restore" his genius rating, he already is a genius in the aspects you have mentioned. His profile is simply more elaborated now in this and mentions several aspects of intellect and his performance there.

I don't understand the point of this thread. Closing it is better.

 

[GaloreDeer051]

Yuuichi's rating was a bit generalized upon just his emotional aspects of intelligence and his usage of "dark triads"iac feats to a "Genius" overall, which was false and rightly pointed out by Huntsman in his earlier thread. The generalization of his rating was rightfully removed and his below par academics and general intelligence in several cognitive aspects than what's actually needed for a genius rating was addressed as well.

This thread doesn't really "restore" his genius rating, he already is a genius in the aspects you have mentioned. His profile is simply more elaborated now in this and mentions several aspects of intellect and his performance there.

I don't understand the point of this thread. Closing it is better.

This is kind of funny when you said "dark triad feats." Never heard that one before. SCD always keeps changing these ratings.

Anyway, I digress.

Hunter's thread provides no scans and no elaborate reasoning = agree.

I provide scans and pretty elaborate reasoning = disagree.

My above reply talks about something Kei can't do through calculations, but Yuuichi did what Kei did and then added his own skill set to get the final score. (a greater feat, basically every gamble rolled into one)

Before I go on, let's talk about gambling and how it works.

Everyone knows that in gambling there is no such thing as truly calculating a guaranteed win, and the biggest factor is that the house always wins in the end. You can calculate roulette table patterns and say, "It's been red six times, so now it has to be black," but that's never the case. It's all up to luck. It could be black, maybe red again, or you just get unlucky and it lands on green.

A similar game to roulette is normally poker. What is different in poker is not the game itself, but the people who play it. It's pure mind games. You can bait people into folding by raising your bet to scare them, or fold your own cards because you think someone has a stronger hand. Hence why the term "poker face" exists.

Now, what Kei did was simple: it was pure calculation. Like I said, if any of you actually read my replies, scans, or whatever, you would know his main goal was to get the Joker. He tried to calculate all the cards, but as soon as it became a Hindu shuffle, the best option was simply to track the Joker. And as you know, if you read my reply, he won, but only because Kamishiro let him win on purpose. Kamishiro had a bigger hand than Kei.

Normally, this is how real gambling works. You can do as many calculations as you want, but luck and human emotion win in the end.

Let me also explain what a hedge bet is. "A hedge bet is a risk-management strategy in which you place a secondary wager on the opposite side of your original bet. Depending on the odds and amounts wagered, this can either guarantee a profit or significantly reduce your losses regardless of the outcome."

Basically, let's say Bet A requires you to put in $200 and doubles your money if you win. Then you place another bet on Bet B for $100, which also doubles your money.

So the best gamble is to never truly gamble at all. This is why Yuuichi's hedge bets are important: he plans for both victory and defeat rather than relying purely on luck. It's funny putting it like that because the arc is about gambling, yet Yuuichi never truly gambles.


I don't know why Hunter, and now you, came to the conclusion that this is just an Emotional Intelligence feat. Honestly, it's a bit sad coming from a supporter of the verse. I thought we could go scan for scan, but I guess not.

Here is one more thing, because it looks like this debate won't continue with the good old supporter being a big ol' meanie.

Let's go over when Yuuichi started that final score game with the participants who were sold. That's actually a good question. I don't know why no one brought it up. It's kind of sad when I have to give you an argument just so I can continue this thread. (Here is the scans)

As we know, Yuuichi created the main contract in Chapter 55 and then created the final score game contract on the same day. We know this logically because it makes no sense for him to do it at the very last minute of the game. We can also see in the scan that Yuuichi made the contract on the same day. That's why he said it took him so long, and that was also when Kokorogi got "mind controlled" by Kamishiro. we can also see in both image 1 and 2 that Kokorogi is wearing her night gown.


So, by simply connecting the dots, we now know that Yuuichi made that game on the same day he made the main contract.

For people who don't know what that means (basically everyone, cough cough Hunter), it means that he wrote these final rankings from first to last:

1st: Kaido – ¥916,000,000

2nd: Mishima – ¥200,000,000

3rd: Kamishiro – ¥209,000,000

4th: Katagiri – ¥0

(Look at those numbers. Wow.)

Now you're probably wondering why this is so important.

Well, Hunter thinks Yuuichi did this feat at the last minute before fighting Satone. He basically thinks Yuuichi went:

"Okay, I'm going to go left, make this guy look right, do a backflip when he's not looking, bap boom dap, and then I'll get this answer. Yay. Everyone claps."

The impressive thing is that he had to put in his final score prediction on the same day he made the main contract. Meaning this it is pre- vs Satone and pre- vs Kamishiro.

It wouldn't make sense for Yuuichi to tell Maria (last two images) his hedge bet plan after fighting Kamishiro, so that means he made it before Kamishiro, around the same time Kokorogi got mind controlled.

(What is very important to note is that Yuuichi had to spend days prior before Chapter 55 talking to the sold team members and building enough trust with them so that they would easily accept his proposal for the final score game later on. That's why he was gone so often during the events leading up to Chapter 55.)

At best, he had to predict two days' worth of information and calculate all of that in his head to the last digit and from first to last.

Simply, not enough Emotional Intelligence alone is getting you this answer.

As we know, and so do you Roger because you're the supporter, Yuuichi planned all of All Bet. This is true. You must remember Chapters 64 and 65 pretty well.

You also can't answer a question halfway through. It's simple math: you have to look at the whole thing.

That means he was calculating this in his head from the beginning of All Bet all the way to the moment he made that final score contract, meaning multiple days' worth of information leading up to that point.

He also had to calculate two days' worth of future information.

Meaning he had to account for the wins, the losses, the purchases, the selling, and of course that good old human emotion.

Don't forget you cant call this luck at all Yuuichi made it so that in order to win you must get the order correct from first to last. Yuuichi wrote that rule so he must be pretty confident in his abilities to do something like that.

So how much manipulation and emotional intelligence do you need to do that on the spot?

I think it's zero.

As we know, pure calculations don't work. That was demonstrated with Kei and also in the real world. So naturally, that means pure Emotional Intelligence won't work either.

Like I said, Yuuichi took Kei's skills—that raw calculation and mathematics—and combined them with his own skill set: that perfect understanding of the human heart, seeing those cheeky little human emotions as numbers. Simply, he treated them as predictable variables, almost like a formula you would see in a math textbook.

So Roger, does this really make sense?

How is it narratively possible for someone to do a feat of this caliber with a rating of Above Average and Average Academics?

I don't know. You're the supporter, so what do you have here? Maybe some scans? Maybe some reasoning?

It's pretty crazy, right, that he wrote this as his final score prediction two days before the game ended?

That's a lot of variables to consider and numbers to calculate.

One measly little dollar being off ruins the entire prediction.

You need an insane amount of analytical ability and foresight to see that, and an insane amount of mathematical ability to predict those numbers correctly.

Maybe that's the "dark triad feats" you were talking about earlier. Please elaborate on that. I wonder how far you can get just by being a little cheeky psychopath.

I also wonder what your reasoning is behind the final arc, the Friendless Game.

Damn, Yuuichi planning every single event over a whole fourteen-day period, eh? Doesn't sound genius enough to explain, I guess. No reason to bring it up.

But hey, what do I know? You're the supporter, so you know more than me, right?

In conclusion, what a disappointing debate.

I thought there would be scans everywhere and a nice heated discussion.

Maybe I should try downscaling next. Seems easier.

Just show up with no scans, start saying random stuff, nitpick profiles, say "see, this actually means he's dumb," and then when someone comes in with scans, I'll just keep spamming one lines like I'm zoning with Ryu.



P.S: Hunter for a airtight scanless debate and not answering my questions with a scan or a deep elaborate reasoning I give you a 10/10 and same for that beautiful downgrade thread of yours I gasp to the audacity of making that thread.

wait that means I get a 0/10 for this. This doesn't really make sense eh whatever lets see what Rogger has to say. let me guess this is just Emotional Intelligence?


Small edit: Fixed hedge bet part

​

 

[RoggerReggor]

This is kind of funny when you said "dark triad feats." Never heard that one before. SCD always keeps changing these ratings.

Anyway, I digress.

Hunter's thread provides no scans and no elaborate reasoning = agree.

I provide scans and pretty elaborate reasoning = disagree.

My above reply talks about something Kei can't do through calculations, but Yuuichi did what Kei did and then added his own skill set to get the final score. (a greater feat, basically every gamble rolled into one)

Before I go on, let's talk about gambling and how it works.

Everyone knows that in gambling there is no such thing as truly calculating a guaranteed win, and the biggest factor is that the house always wins in the end. You can calculate roulette table patterns and say, "It's been red six times, so now it has to be black," but that's never the case. It's all up to luck. It could be black, maybe red again, or you just get unlucky and it lands on green.

A similar game to roulette is normally poker. What is different in poker is not the game itself, but the people who play it. It's pure mind games. You can bait people into folding by raising your bet to scare them, or fold your own cards because you think someone has a stronger hand. Hence why the term "poker face" exists.

Now, what Kei did was simple: it was pure calculation. Like I said, if any of you actually read my replies, scans, or whatever, you would know his main goal was to get the Joker. He tried to calculate all the cards, but as soon as it became a Hindu shuffle, the best option was simply to track the Joker. And as you know, if you read my reply, he won, but only because Kamishiro let him win on purpose. Kamishiro had a bigger hand than Kei.

Normally, this is how real gambling works. You can do as many calculations as you want, but luck and human emotion win in the end.

Let me also explain what a hedge bet is. "A hedge bet is a risk-management strategy in which you place a secondary wager on the opposite side of your original bet. Depending on the odds and amounts wagered, this can either guarantee a profit or significantly reduce your losses regardless of the outcome."

Basically, let's say Bet A requires you to put in $200 and doubles your money if you win. Then you place another bet on Bet B for $100, which also doubles your money.

So the best gamble is to never truly gamble at all. This is why Yuuichi's hedge bets are important: he plans for both victory and defeat rather than relying purely on luck. It's funny putting it like that because the arc is about gambling, yet Yuuichi never truly gambles.


I don't know why Hunter, and now you, came to the conclusion that this is just an Emotional Intelligence feat. Honestly, it's a bit sad coming from a supporter of the verse. I thought we could go scan for scan, but I guess not.

Here is one more thing, because it looks like this debate won't continue with the good old supporter being a big ol' meanie.

Let's go over when Yuuichi started that final score game with the participants who were sold. That's actually a good question. I don't know why no one brought it up. It's kind of sad when I have to give you an argument just so I can continue this thread. (Here is the scans)

As we know, Yuuichi created the main contract in Chapter 55 and then created the final score game contract on the same day. We know this logically because it makes no sense for him to do it at the very last minute of the game. We can also see in the scan that Yuuichi made the contract on the same day. That's why he said it took him so long, and that was also when Kokorogi got "mind controlled" by Kamishiro. we can also see in both image 1 and 2 that Kokorogi is wearing her night gown.


So, by simply connecting the dots, we now know that Yuuichi made that game on the same day he made the main contract.

For people who don't know what that means (basically everyone, cough cough Hunter), it means that he wrote these final rankings from first to last:

1st: Kaido – ¥916,000,000

2nd: Mishima – ¥200,000,000

3rd: Kamishiro – ¥209,000,000

4th: Katagiri – ¥0

(Look at those numbers. Wow.)

Now you're probably wondering why this is so important.

Well, Hunter thinks Yuuichi did this feat at the last minute before fighting Satone. He basically thinks Yuuichi went:

"Okay, I'm going to go left, make this guy look right, do a backflip when he's not looking, bap boom dap, and then I'll get this answer. Yay. Everyone claps."

The impressive thing is that he had to put in his final score prediction on the same day he made the main contract. Meaning this it is pre- vs Satone and pre- vs Kamishiro.

It wouldn't make sense for Yuuichi to tell Maria (last two images) his hedge bet plan after fighting Kamishiro, so that means he made it before Kamishiro, around the same time Kokorogi got mind controlled.

(What is very important to note is that Yuuichi had to spend days prior before Chapter 55 talking to the sold team members and building enough trust with them so that they would easily accept his proposal for the final score game later on. That's why he was gone so often during the events leading up to Chapter 55.)

At best, he had to predict two days' worth of information and calculate all of that in his head to the last digit and from first to last.

Simply, not enough Emotional Intelligence alone is getting you this answer.

As we know, and so do you Roger because you're the supporter, Yuuichi planned all of All Bet. This is true. You must remember Chapters 64 and 65 pretty well.

You also can't answer a question halfway through. It's simple math: you have to look at the whole thing.

That means he was calculating this in his head from the beginning of All Bet all the way to the moment he made that final score contract, meaning multiple days' worth of information leading up to that point.

He also had to calculate two days' worth of future information.

Meaning he had to account for the wins, the losses, the purchases, the selling, and of course that good old human emotion.

Don't forget you cant call this luck at all Yuuichi made it so that in order to win you must get the order correct from first to last. Yuuichi wrote that rule so he must be pretty confident in his abilities to do something like that.

So how much manipulation and emotional intelligence do you need to do that on the spot?

I think it's zero.

As we know, pure calculations don't work. That was demonstrated with Kei and also in the real world. So naturally, that means pure Emotional Intelligence won't work either.

Like I said, Yuuichi took Kei's skills—that raw calculation and mathematics—and combined them with his own skill set: that perfect understanding of the human heart, seeing those cheeky little human emotions as numbers. Simply, he treated them as predictable variables, almost like a formula you would see in a math textbook.

So Roger, does this really make sense?

How is it narratively possible for someone to do a feat of this caliber with a rating of Above Average and Average Academics?

I don't know. You're the supporter, so what do you have here? Maybe some scans? Maybe some reasoning?

It's pretty crazy, right, that he wrote this as his final score prediction two days before the game ended?

That's a lot of variables to consider and numbers to calculate.

One measly little dollar being off ruins the entire prediction.

You need an insane amount of analytical ability and foresight to see that, and an insane amount of mathematical ability to predict those numbers correctly.

Maybe that's the "dark triad feats" you were talking about earlier. Please elaborate on that. I wonder how far you can get just by being a little cheeky psychopath.

I also wonder what your reasoning is behind the final arc, the Friendless Game.

Damn, Yuuichi planning every single event over a whole fourteen-day period, eh? Doesn't sound genius enough to explain, I guess. No reason to bring it up.

But hey, what do I know? You're the supporter, so you know more than me, right?

In conclusion, what a disappointing debate.

I thought there would be scans everywhere and a nice heated discussion.

Maybe I should try downscaling next. Seems easier.

Just show up with no scans, start saying random stuff, nitpick profiles, say "see, this actually means he's dumb," and then when someone comes in with scans, I'll just keep spamming one lines like I'm zoning with Ryu.



P.S: Hunter for a airtight scanless debate and not answering my questions with a scan or a deep elaborate reasoning I give you a 10/10 and same for that beautiful downgrade thread of yours I gasp to the audacity of making that thread.

wait that means I get a 0/10 for this. This doesn't really make sense eh whatever lets see what Rogger has to say. let me guess this is just Emotional Intelligence?


Small edit: Fixed hedge bet part

"Dark triads"iac feats simply refers to manipulation, deception and emotional + social engineering categories spread over a spectrum, I apologize for not making it clear.

Again, this is how I see the entire arc:
1. Yuuichi badly lost the gamble. Whether this was on purpose or not is left up to the reader to decide, but I heavily believe that it was on purpose.

2. Yuuichi acts as an "invisible man" in the arc. No one can see the monetary activities he made, and he can freely move inside and outside of the room. (Already stated)
3. 2. is possible because Yuuichi is valued at ¥0, and this allows him to infinitely buy and sell himself whenever he wants. This allows him to communicate all his ideas with the others as many times as he wants.
4. Yuuichi made a "guess" as Tsukasa himself stated. The timing or the "calculative" nature of this entire guess isn't fully revealed, but let's say he did cognitively did functionally thought of it entirely. Later on, Tsukasa however, refers to this as a "prediction", suggesting it as a calculated move.

Even with that, you will need to:
1. Prove all the decisive calculations he made in order to make it a "possible" prediction as Tsukasa himself said.
2. Provide a valid timeframe or at least suggest it.
3. When you're finally done, indicate his cognitive proficiency.

As it stands, not only is there a need to adjust all the processes he must have made but also include them in a timeframe. To me, this isn't really a very good CPI, though I guess you are still hoping for his upgrade in scheming (which is something which is already there, which I guess can be evident from reading his current profile as well), though a better wording can do, I suppose.

 

[GaloreDeer051]

"Dark triads"iac feats simply refers to manipulation, deception and emotional + social engineering categories spread over a spectrum, I apologize for not making it clear.

Again, this is how I see the entire arc:
1. Yuuichi badly lost the gamble. Whether this was on purpose or not is left up to the reader to decide, but I heavily believe that it was on purpose.

2. Yuuichi acts as an "invisible man" in the arc. No one can see the monetary activities he made, and he can freely move inside and outside of the room. (Already stated)
3. 2. is possible because Yuuichi is valued at ¥0, and this allows him to infinitely buy and sell himself whenever he wants. This allows him to communicate all his ideas with the others as many times as he wants.
4. Yuuichi made a "guess" as Tsukasa himself stated. The timing or the "calculative" nature of this entire guess isn't fully revealed, but let's say he did cognitively did functionally thought of it entirely. Later on, Tsukasa however, refers to this as a "prediction", suggesting it as a calculated move.

Even with that, you will need to:
1. Prove all the decisive calculations he made in order to make it a "possible" prediction as Tsukasa himself said.
2. Provide a valid timeframe or at least suggest it.
3. When you're finally done, indicate his cognitive proficiency.

As it stands, not only is there a need to adjust all the processes he must have made but also include them in a timeframe. To me, this isn't really a very good CPI, though I guess you are still hoping for his upgrade in scheming (which is something which is already there, which I guess can be evident from reading his current profile as well), though a better wording can do, I suppose.

This is actually a really good question regarding the All Bet arc, and it is not discussed much within the Tomodachi Game community. I tried to explain it in my previous reply, but I think I need to go into more detail, especially regarding when Yuuichi made the prediction.

What I said in my last reply is that Yuuichi made the final score contract on the same day he made the main contract with the other team leaders, giving him at least two full days of information that he had to predict and account for.

Manipulation explains how he achieved the outcome, but manipulation alone does not explain how he arrived at these four exact numbers. He needed to put these numbers down before carrying out the manipulation.

I will use my previous scans again, along with a few more, and go through it step by step.

As we know, Yuuichi is worth ¥0 and can continuously buy and sell himself. This allows him to move freely undetected and communicate with the sold participants as many times as he wants.

In the Chapter 64 flashbacks, we can see that the people present are the same people who were sold from the beginning of the game: Makoto, the girl Mishima sold, the two followers Kamishiro sold, and the three people Kaido sold. We also see Tenji, who was sold by Kei during the poker match on that same day.

This is very important because, on that exact page, Yuuichi proposes the final score bet.

On the next page, Kaido asks whether they participated in the gamble. One of them replies that they were receiving updates whenever there was progress in the game. More importantly, a woman from Mishima's team, the same one who stabbed Kei and was later sold by Mishima comes in and says that Yuuichi is bad at gambling.

This lines up the timeline so far.

Yuuichi proposed the final score bet before Mishima's sale, then left to interfere with Kei vs Mishima, then proposed the main contract with the team leaders, and then returned later on the same day to establish the final score game and Mishima girl is there.

This also makes sense because the final score contract is meaningless unless the main contract already exists.

This is backed up by Yuuichi saying that he will leave for a while to deal with his own matters and that Kei has sole responsibility for looking after Kokorogi. Later, when Yuuichi saves Kei, he says, "I made you wait," and Kei replies, "You're seriously late." This strongly implies that Yuuichi was gone for a long time.

Now, to prove that he came back later on the same day, there are two important scans regarding Kamishiro's "Mind Control" of Kokorogi.

In Chapter 55, Kokorogi speaks with Kamishiro while wearing her night gown. Then, in Chapter 60, during the fight against Kamishiro, Yuuichi states:

"I would have stopped it if possible, but the mind control had already been completed while I was gone."

The important question is this:

Why was Yuuichi gone again after making the main contract?

Yuuichi, Kei, and Kokorogi sleep in the same room, so where exactly did he go at that time?

Furthermore, Yuuichi is wearing his drip while Kokorogi is still wearing her night gown. This strongly suggests that he left again and was gone for quite some time.

The most logical conclusion is that he returned to the sold participants in order to finalize the final score game.

In Chapter 65's flashbacks, we see something else that is important.

Not only did Kaido's team sign the contract, but Mishima's and Kamishiro's teams did as well.

This also suggests that it had to occur before the fight against Kamishiro.

It makes no sense for them to sign it after Yuuichi had already beaten Kamishiro and after Satone had already defeated Mishima off-screen on the same day. All three teams believed that they would finish in first place.

Therefore pre Kamishiro timeframe makes sense.

So now I have established when the final score contract was made: the same day that Yuuichi made the main contract.

This means he had at best two days based on the Kamishiro fight and the one-day grace period before Satone.

Now the question becomes:

How did Yuuichi do it?

As I said earlier, manipulation explains the outcome, but it does not explain how he arrived at these exact numbers:

1st: Kaido – ¥916,000,000

2nd: Mishima – ¥200,000,000

3rd: Kamishiro – ¥209,000,000

4th: Katagiri – ¥0

We also know from Chapters 65 that Yuuichi planned the entirety of All Bet. established in Information control, Strategic and Long-Term Contingency Planning and Risk management.

We both agree that Yuuichi intentionally lost the poker match.

We also know that Yuuichi knew his final confrontation was going to be with Satone because of the many favours Kaido did for Yuuichi and all that he wanted in return is for him to fight Satone.

Therefore, Yuuichi already knew the endgame from the very beginning.

The structure of All Bet looks something like this:

Pre-contract: look weak, avoid attention, and do not take control.

Post-contract: take control, call the shots, and force the games on your terms.

This makes sense because during both the Kamishiro and Satone matches, Yuuichi is the one who proposes the games, writes the rules, and creates the contracts.

The funny thing is that you can look at All Bet like a math question in a test.

Pre-contract: the question, the theory, the formulas, and the calculations.

Post-contract: answering the question.

The two days: the answer.

The test itself: the life-and-death situation.

Once the contract was made, Yuuichi has to lock in these four numbers from first to last.

It is not luck either.

Rule 2 removes any luck argument because Yuuichi must predict the precise order from first to last. There is no "Top 3" or "close enough" guess

Yuuichi was confident in his own abilities to write that rule.

He had to account for constantly changing variables since the start of the game and towards the time he needed to put his final guess and calculate and predict the future 2 days:

• wins,
• losses,
• purchases,
• sales,
• and human emotions.

One single yen being wrong causes the entire prediction to fail. This required repeatedly accounting for and updating numerous changing variables in order to arrive at a prediction that satisfied all of the conditions.

You cant solve a math question starting mid way you need the whole thing to answer it.

Another thing supporting this is why Yuuichi gave himself ¥0.

This actually simplifies the problem.

Because Yuuichi planned on purchasing Maria, he no longer had to account for his own team's monetary fluctuations and calculate her price or even how much money he will he bet in his games or lose. By placing himself at ¥0 and in last place, he effectively reduced the number of variables he had to actively track for himself. All he needed to do is to finish the game with ¥0 and last place

Furthermore, Yuuichi himself created the games against Kamishiro and Satone.

Therefore, he had to repeatedly consider which games would maximize his chances of success while simultaneously keeping his final score prediction intact.

Old Maid makes sense against Kamishiro, an egotistical person who claims to possess the "God Eye" and divine insight.

Likewise, a coin flip makes sense against Satone, the character explicitly portrayed as having extraordinary luck.

Most importantly, Yuuichi used Kamishiro's humiliation and then reused it after his loss to Satone. established in Emotional modelling

This suggests that the two games were connected and planned together as parts of one larger strategy.

Finally, I need to explain why the final score contract cannot realistically be made after the Kamishiro fight.

During the Kamishiro fight, Satone was simultaneously fighting Mishima and than Satone and Kaido watched Yuuichi.

After defeating Kamishiro, Yuuichi talks to Satone and postpones their match until the next day.

He then returns to his room, discusses things with his team, Mishima Joins in, and later purchases Maria.

By this point, it is already night time.

When he spoked to Maria, he presents the plan as if it is already set in motion and instructs her regarding the "boat" signal when he loses.

Why would you explain the end goal of your plan before you have even created it?

Narratively it makes no sense and would create plot holes with the timeline.

Even if the contract were made after the Maria conversation, it would be far too late.

Earlier, I explained that all three teams believed they would finish in first place.

If Yuuichi had already beaten Kamishiro and Satone had already defeated Mishima, it becomes much harder to explain why everyone would still be so confident in their positions and that means they wouldn't think that Yuuichi is bad at gambling after beating Kamshiro.


Therefore, the most logical conclusion is that Yuuichi made the final score contract before the Kamishiro fight, on the same day that he made the main contract.


Narratively this level of high analytical calculation, processing, prediction, and planning does not contradict the story at all.

Yuuichi does something even greater in Friendless Game, where he plans all events over the entire fourteen-day period, leading to his self sacrifice and the destruction of the final evil himself and Tomodachi Game.

Friendless game is every aspect of past games into one

So this level of foresight is not limited to All Bet. The final arc later reinforces the idea that Yuuichi is capable of long-term planning, predictive reasoning, and accounting for numerous constantly changing variables over extended periods of time.

The Friendless Game supports that the level of foresight shown in All Bet is entirely consistent with Yuuichi's portrayal later in the series and backs up the 2 day calculations.

• Analytical Prediction (Yuuichi deceived, manipulated and beat elite bettors throughout the entire arc of the betting boat, in the short period of time that Yuuichi was on the boat he was able to predict all the bets his opponents would make and even managed to guess the final result that he would have and also the final amount of money that he himself would finish and also that of other participants, this being an extremely surreal number to guess, even with the numbers constantly being changed due to the constant bets of other people)

Even his abilities section says the same thing that I am saying. I simply provided the who, what, when, and how with scans.

I think Yuuichi needs a rework on his profile. almost all of the feats listed in his abilities section come from pre-Adult Tomodachi Game, yet he performs even greater feats later in the series. His intelligence section needs a revamp as well.

So my whole point with this thread is simply

Low academics do not equal low intelligence.

Based on the feats he performs throughout the series, along with the narrative consequences of his poverty and lack of interest in school, I do not think his academic performance should be used to downscale his overall intelligence.

That is my reason for a restoration.




Also, since you didn't mention it in your reply, I want to apologise for my earlier replies and my tone towards you and Huntsman. It wasn't needed.

 

[RoggerReggor]

This is actually a really good question regarding the All Bet arc, and it is not discussed much within the Tomodachi Game community. I tried to explain it in my previous reply, but I think I need to go into more detail, especially regarding when Yuuichi made the prediction.

What I said in my last reply is that Yuuichi made the final score contract on the same day he made the main contract with the other team leaders, giving him at least two full days of information that he had to predict and account for.

Manipulation explains how he achieved the outcome, but manipulation alone does not explain how he arrived at these four exact numbers. He needed to put these numbers down before carrying out the manipulation.

I will use my previous scans again, along with a few more, and go through it step by step.

As we know, Yuuichi is worth ¥0 and can continuously buy and sell himself. This allows him to move freely undetected and communicate with the sold participants as many times as he wants.

In the Chapter 64 flashbacks, we can see that the people present are the same people who were sold from the beginning of the game: Makoto, the girl Mishima sold, the two followers Kamishiro sold, and the three people Kaido sold. We also see Tenji, who was sold by Kei during the poker match on that same day.

This is very important because, on that exact page, Yuuichi proposes the final score bet.

On the next page, Kaido asks whether they participated in the gamble. One of them replies that they were receiving updates whenever there was progress in the game. More importantly, a woman from Mishima's team, the same one who stabbed Kei and was later sold by Mishima comes in and says that Yuuichi is bad at gambling.

This lines up the timeline so far.

Yuuichi proposed the final score bet before Mishima's sale, then left to interfere with Kei vs Mishima, then proposed the main contract with the team leaders, and then returned later on the same day to establish the final score game and Mishima girl is there.

This also makes sense because the final score contract is meaningless unless the main contract already exists.

This is backed up by Yuuichi saying that he will leave for a while to deal with his own matters and that Kei has sole responsibility for looking after Kokorogi. Later, when Yuuichi saves Kei, he says, "I made you wait," and Kei replies, "You're seriously late." This strongly implies that Yuuichi was gone for a long time.

Now, to prove that he came back later on the same day, there are two important scans regarding Kamishiro's "Mind Control" of Kokorogi.

In Chapter 55, Kokorogi speaks with Kamishiro while wearing her night gown. Then, in Chapter 60, during the fight against Kamishiro, Yuuichi states:

"I would have stopped it if possible, but the mind control had already been completed while I was gone."

The important question is this:

Why was Yuuichi gone again after making the main contract?

Yuuichi, Kei, and Kokorogi sleep in the same room, so where exactly did he go at that time?

Furthermore, Yuuichi is wearing his drip while Kokorogi is still wearing her night gown. This strongly suggests that he left again and was gone for quite some time.

The most logical conclusion is that he returned to the sold participants in order to finalize the final score game.

In Chapter 65's flashbacks, we see something else that is important.

Not only did Kaido's team sign the contract, but Mishima's and Kamishiro's teams did as well.

This also suggests that it had to occur before the fight against Kamishiro.

It makes no sense for them to sign it after Yuuichi had already beaten Kamishiro and after Satone had already defeated Mishima off-screen on the same day. All three teams believed that they would finish in first place.

Therefore pre Kamishiro timeframe makes sense.

So now I have established when the final score contract was made: the same day that Yuuichi made the main contract.

This means he had at best two days based on the Kamishiro fight and the one-day grace period before Satone.

Now the question becomes:

How did Yuuichi do it?

As I said earlier, manipulation explains the outcome, but it does not explain how he arrived at these exact numbers:

1st: Kaido – ¥916,000,000

2nd: Mishima – ¥200,000,000

3rd: Kamishiro – ¥209,000,000

4th: Katagiri – ¥0

We also know from Chapters 65 that Yuuichi planned the entirety of All Bet. established in Information control, Strategic and Long-Term Contingency Planning and Risk management.

We both agree that Yuuichi intentionally lost the poker match.

We also know that Yuuichi knew his final confrontation was going to be with Satone because of the many favours Kaido did for Yuuichi and all that he wanted in return is for him to fight Satone.

Therefore, Yuuichi already knew the endgame from the very beginning.

The structure of All Bet looks something like this:

Pre-contract: look weak, avoid attention, and do not take control.

Post-contract: take control, call the shots, and force the games on your terms.

This makes sense because during both the Kamishiro and Satone matches, Yuuichi is the one who proposes the games, writes the rules, and creates the contracts.

The funny thing is that you can look at All Bet like a math question in a test.

Pre-contract: the question, the theory, the formulas, and the calculations.

Post-contract: answering the question.

The two days: the answer.

The test itself: the life-and-death situation.

Once the contract was made, Yuuichi has to lock in these four numbers from first to last.

It is not luck either.

Rule 2 removes any luck argument because Yuuichi must predict the precise order from first to last. There is no "Top 3" or "close enough" guess

Yuuichi was confident in his own abilities to write that rule.

He had to account for constantly changing variables since the start of the game and towards the time he needed to put his final guess and calculate and predict the future 2 days:

• wins,
• losses,
• purchases,
• sales,
• and human emotions.

One single yen being wrong causes the entire prediction to fail. This required repeatedly accounting for and updating numerous changing variables in order to arrive at a prediction that satisfied all of the conditions.

You cant solve a math question starting mid way you need the whole thing to answer it.

Another thing supporting this is why Yuuichi gave himself ¥0.

This actually simplifies the problem.

Because Yuuichi planned on purchasing Maria, he no longer had to account for his own team's monetary fluctuations and calculate her price or even how much money he will he bet in his games or lose. By placing himself at ¥0 and in last place, he effectively reduced the number of variables he had to actively track for himself. All he needed to do is to finish the game with ¥0 and last place

Furthermore, Yuuichi himself created the games against Kamishiro and Satone.

Therefore, he had to repeatedly consider which games would maximize his chances of success while simultaneously keeping his final score prediction intact.

Old Maid makes sense against Kamishiro, an egotistical person who claims to possess the "God Eye" and divine insight.

Likewise, a coin flip makes sense against Satone, the character explicitly portrayed as having extraordinary luck.

Most importantly, Yuuichi used Kamishiro's humiliation and then reused it after his loss to Satone. established in Emotional modelling

This suggests that the two games were connected and planned together as parts of one larger strategy.

Finally, I need to explain why the final score contract cannot realistically be made after the Kamishiro fight.

During the Kamishiro fight, Satone was simultaneously fighting Mishima and than Satone and Kaido watched Yuuichi.

After defeating Kamishiro, Yuuichi talks to Satone and postpones their match until the next day.

He then returns to his room, discusses things with his team, Mishima Joins in, and later purchases Maria.

By this point, it is already night time.

When he spoked to Maria, he presents the plan as if it is already set in motion and instructs her regarding the "boat" signal when he loses.

Why would you explain the end goal of your plan before you have even created it?

Narratively it makes no sense and would create plot holes with the timeline.

Even if the contract were made after the Maria conversation, it would be far too late.

Earlier, I explained that all three teams believed they would finish in first place.

If Yuuichi had already beaten Kamishiro and Satone had already defeated Mishima, it becomes much harder to explain why everyone would still be so confident in their positions and that means they wouldn't think that Yuuichi is bad at gambling after beating Kamshiro.


Therefore, the most logical conclusion is that Yuuichi made the final score contract before the Kamishiro fight, on the same day that he made the main contract.


Narratively this level of high analytical calculation, processing, prediction, and planning does not contradict the story at all.

Yuuichi does something even greater in Friendless Game, where he plans all events over the entire fourteen-day period, leading to his self sacrifice and the destruction of the final evil himself and Tomodachi Game.

Friendless game is every aspect of past games into one

So this level of foresight is not limited to All Bet. The final arc later reinforces the idea that Yuuichi is capable of long-term planning, predictive reasoning, and accounting for numerous constantly changing variables over extended periods of time.

The Friendless Game supports that the level of foresight shown in All Bet is entirely consistent with Yuuichi's portrayal later in the series and backs up the 2 day calculations.




Even his abilities section says the same thing that I am saying. I simply provided the who, what, when, and how with scans.

I think Yuuichi needs a rework on his profile. almost all of the feats listed in his abilities section come from pre-Adult Tomodachi Game, yet he performs even greater feats later in the series. His intelligence section needs a revamp as well.

So my whole point with this thread is simply

Low academics do not equal low intelligence.

Based on the feats he performs throughout the series, along with the narrative consequences of his poverty and lack of interest in school, I do not think his academic performance should be used to downscale his overall intelligence.

That is my reason for a restoration.

Acknowledged. While I do want to reply to this with solid stuff on my side as well, I would like to ask you for some specifics (I am skipping the emotional espects such as emotional modeling or other stuff like deception since he's already high in it):

1. The accurate calculation of Japanese yen and then it's placement order (again, I am not "fully" sure about it), how much total worth of information would it actually be? In theory, he needn't store all of it in his mind at a single point in his brain, as it is not something which requires him to either.
2. A solid exact timeframe around which he does it.

Again, I did read your response, but I do not yet think the attached scans do "completely" justify the both above exactly. Though, I would say that point 1 is still pretty agreeable in this regard.

A small clarification which I myself would make is that the reason why most of the analysis wouldn't be going on the path of Yuuichi actually having high cognition when analyzing for feats is because the specific statement in the Kei arc conclusion where he himself undermined it. Though I don't have the exact scan right now, so I guess I will look for it.

Also, since you didn't mention it in your reply, I want to apologise for my earlier replies and my tone towards you and Huntsman. It wasn't needed.

No worries.

 

[GaloreDeer051]

Acknowledged. While I do want to reply to this with solid stuff on my side as well, I would like to ask you for some specifics (I am skipping the emotional espects such as emotional modeling or other stuff like deception since he's already high in it):

1. The accurate calculation of Japanese yen and then it's placement order (again, I am not "fully" sure about it), how much total worth of information would it actually be? In theory, he needn't store all of it in his mind at a single point in his brain, as it is not something which requires him to either.
2. A solid exact timeframe around which he does it.

Again, I did read your response, but I do not yet think the attached scans do "completely" justify the both above exactly. Though, I would say that point 1 is still pretty agreeable in this regard.

A small clarification which I myself would make is that the reason why most of the analysis wouldn't be going on the path of Yuuichi actually having high cognition when analyzing for feats is because the specific statement in the Kei arc conclusion where he himself undermined it. Though I don't have the exact scan right now, so I guess I will look for it.

No worries.

To pinpoint the exact timeline, we need to look at the points where the final score contract cannot have happened.

I said in my earlier reply that it cannot happen post-vs Kamishiro because of these scans (here, here). We see that people from both Mishima's and Kamishiro's groups participated in the bet, and they were confident that they would finish in first place. We also know that the girl from Mishima's team, who was sold, later came in and said:
"Yuuichi is bad at gambling."

What is important to note is that one of Kaido's members stated:

"We had updates whenever there was progress in the game."

This means that if the teams signed the contract after Yuuichi beat Kamishiro and after Satone defeated Mishima, then both of those teams would no longer be confident in putting their teams in first place, and all three teams would no longer think that Yuuichi is bad at gambling.

I also talked about the conversation with Maria, where Yuuichi speaks as if the plan is already set in motion.

There would simply be too many plot holes if that's when he made the final score contract.

Now, to pinpoint the exact moment when he signed it, it is most likely, as I said before, pre-vs Kamishiro on the same day he made the main contract.

If you're asking for the most accurate time he made it, we know that in Chapter 55, Kokorogi went to speak to Kamishiro while wearing her night gown. Then, in Chapter 60, Yuuichi says:

"I would have stopped it if possible, but the mind control had already been completed while I was gone."

We can see what both of them were wearing in that flashback panel. Kokorogi is still wearing her night gown, while Yuuichi is wearing his normal outfit.

The important phrase here is:

"while I was gone."

Where did Yuuichi go again?

He had already left earlier, so why was he gone again?

The most likely explanation is that he went back to the sold participants to finalize the final guessing game.

This also makes sense because one of Kaido's team members said:

"A woman from Mishima's team came in later."

It also makes sense because the final guessing game would be meaningless until the main contract had already been established.

So now we know that it is post-main contract.

As for the exact moment Yuuichi went there and made the bet and his final guess, it was most likely either when Kokorogi went to speak to Kamishiro or right before Yuuichi went to bed.

That is the timeline that I think makes the most sense. The game went for around 4 days and he guessed it when it had at best 2 days left.

I want your input on this.


To talk about the information he needed to store in his mind, we need to look back at this scan.

The two important things to note are:

1. These were the same people who were sold on Day 1.
2. Yuuichi proposed the bet to them before the girl from Mishima's team came in.

This means that Yuuichi had been thinking about this plan since the very beginning.

To determine when he started storing this information, it had to be from the start, discussions about monetary value had begun, when the people had already been sold and before the poker match.

Yuuichi was worth ¥0, so he already had this plan in mind in order to even propose this bet on the early second day when he left Kokorogi and Kei for a while.

Now, to see what kind of information he was storing in his head, we need to look at the poker match.

We both agree that Yuuichi intentionally lost that match so that he could move around freely and avoid suspicion.

This also supports the idea that he had already thought about the final guess at the start of the game.

In my Game theory scans, Yuuichi viewed the people who were sold as simpletons and as people who were bad at gambling.

So, in his head, it most likely went something like this:

"These people who were sold are useful. I'm worth ¥0, so I can buy and sell myself as many times as I want and use them for a larger plan. All I need is for the main teams to view me as weak, so losing this poker match will help."

I think losing the poker match was not just about moving around freely. It also allowed him to observe how the players acted, behaved, and spent their money.

When Kei took over and started calculating the card shuffling, it allowed Yuuichi to observe:

• who would play,
• how much they would bet,
• who would fold,
• who would challenge a bet,
• and how each team approached gambling.

The important part is that Kei won because Kamishiro let him win on purpose.

Yuuichi already knew that Kei would lose next time and stopped Round 2 from happening.

This is one of the pieces of information Yuuichi needed to store in his head because, in order to accurately predict the final score, he needed to understand how all of the teams played.

This also helped him when he later created the games against Kamishiro and Satone based on their personalities and gambling styles, as he was the one who proposed the games and wrote the rules.

It most likely also involved the favours he asked from Kaido, allowing him to further understand the personality of Satone and the inevitable final battle.

Also important to note, when Yuuichi was talking to the sold participants, he started the conversation by sharing embarrassing stories about his own teammates, which encouraged everyone else to talk about their own team members.

Yuuichi later used this information during his match against Satone.

While we know for certain that this information helped against Satone, we do not know exactly how much of it he used for the other teams. However, as one of Kaido's members stated, everyone started competing by sharing stories about their teammates.

Therefore, it is most likely that these conversations provided Yuuichi with additional information regarding the personalities, relationships, and behaviours of the other teams, which may have also contributed to his final score prediction.

We know that Kamishiro is egotistical and that Mishima is sadistic.

So Yuuichi observed:

• Kei versus Mishima,
• how all of the teams reacted to the blackout,
• how each participant behaved under pressure.
• How each team reacted to the main contract

Storing and continuously updating this information allowed him to form his final prediction regarding

• constantly changing values,
• multiple teams,
• purchases,
• sales,
• future games,
• exact rankings,
• and exact monetary amounts.

A small clarification which I myself would make is that the reason why most of the analysis wouldn't be going on the path of Yuuichi actually having high cognition when analyzing for feats is because the specific statement in the Kei arc conclusion where he himself undermined it. Though I don't have the exact scan right now, so I guess I will look for it.

I think you're referring to chapter 29, when Yuuichi talks to Reiko after being asked about Kei in game 3. I discussed this in my main thread in point 1 and gave two interpretations: a face-value interpretation and an exaggeration interpretation.


For Interpretation 2 (the exaggeration interpretation), my argument is basically that Yuuichi was downplaying his own abilities as a tactic against the admins. Reiko is an admin, and Yuuichi sees the Tomodachi Game as a whole as his enemies, so this would fit with his usual tactic of making people underestimate him.


I am not saying that what he said about Kei and Tenji is false. Rather, I think he exaggerated how far below them he was.


After this conversation, Yuuichi immediately went to interrogate Kuroki.


We know that Tomodachi Game often creates rules and situations specifically to work against Yuuichi. So it is possible that he deliberately said these things in order to mislead the admins.


In the Prison Game, we see that Kei and Kuroki are there, and Makoto is there as well, someone whom Yuuichi himself stated was academically above him. However, Tenji is absent, despite Yuuichi saying that Tenji is smarter than him.


If Tenji had been added to the Prison Game, it would have given Yuuichi a major advantage. Instead, the game included arguably the least useful member of Yuuichi's team.


Yuuichi most likely did not know that the next game would be the Prison Game, but because this was one of the few opportunities he had for a direct conversation with an admin due to Kuroki pretending to be Tomodachi Game, it is possible that he intentionally downplayed himself to influence how the admins would view him.


This interpretation is also consistent with the fact that Yuuichi completed the Prison Game relatively easily despite those disadvantages.


As for Interpretation 1, I argued that Yuuichi's lack of interest in school and his poverty should not automatically determine his overall intelligence.


Regarding possible story contradictions, I do not think this statement necessarily hurts either interpretation.


In this scan, Toujou states that Kei is a few ranks above Yuuichi in raw intelligence, and this statement occurs before the final score reveal.


To me, this does not necessarily mean that Yuuichi is unintelligent. It simply suggests that Kei's raw intellectual abilities are a little better in one aspect.


It is entirely possible that both characters possess high cognitive abilities, with Kei simply being somewhat better in terms of raw intelligence. This is also supported by feats such as Kei's blindfold feat during the Battle Royale arc, where his raw intellectual ability is shown.


This only establishes that Kei is superior in raw intelligence; it does not necessarily establish that Yuuichi lacks high cognitive abilities of his own.