General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[FroYoSans]

Be that as it may, for the sake of reliability, all verses should be scaled from their own feats, not from crossovers. We should not scale DC Comics from He-Man any more than we should scale Marvel and DC Comics from each other. Regardless of onesided or twosided canonicity, all characters as good as always have their statistics rescaled to fit with each other's settings for narrative purposes.

Unrelated to what you're currently discussing, though I do agree that crossover scaling is often very iffy at best. But I'm curious your opinion on my most recent thread for downgrading New 52 Flash speed wise? I know you tend to lean more on the "conservative", for lack of a better word, side when it comes to Herald Tiers in comics

 

[Antvasima]

I don't remember reading that thread. My apologies.

 

[FroYoSans]

I don't remember reading that thread. My apologies.

Eh reasonable, there's so many of them. If you want to read it I can link it again

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Feel free to do so.

 

[FroYoSans]

Yes. Feel free to do so.

New 52 Flash high key isn't that fast

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I will check.

 

[Frankky123]

Before i go, maybe i need to leave it here just in case someone tries to revised Superman profile.

Thought Robot isn't a story of superman. He contains Story of flaw, story of DC Multiverse(heroes & villain)with story of Superman is its heart and mandrakk isn't the evil story, evil story is the narrative in book limbo that using mandrakk to destroy DC Multiverse's Stories.

Thought Robot can be activated by fusing a two opposite energy of DC story. Superman as selfless act Hero and Ultraman as evil crime. With this combined the divine metal that contains DC story is activated.

IGN Comics: All right, let's dive into it. So storytelling has often been compared to illusion and slight of hand, where the illusionist or writer uses big loud movements with his right hand to distract the crowd from his left, then when the crowd looks over to the left hand to catch the trick, the big turn occurs in the right. On several levels, it seems like you've pulled off the ultimate storytelling slight of hand with Final Crisis. You began with this epic superhero event boiled down to good vs. evil, then introduced these crazy, fourth-wall bending elements in Superman Beyond. But when it came down to it in the end, the story really did end being this ultimate good vs. evil story – just not the one we expected. Was this deliberate on your part?

Morrison: Yeah, completely. As you know, from the very start of this, it was kind of me trying to do a 'final' statement on DCU superhero comics before I go off and have a rethink. Unmaking the DC Universe to the point of destruction then showing how its own internal rules will work to homeostatically reset it. Superman always saves the day or he's not Superman. It's a self-perpetuating idea. So I wanted to get in everything I felt about that, and I knew it was ambitious, but I actually do think we nailed it.

First off, you've spoken about the power of story, and the power of the DC Universe in particular, and expressed a certain level of awe at how these creations and these stories outlast their creators significantly. This sentiment seems to play out directly when Zillo Valla faces down Mandrakk's dream of the ultimate void by telling him she found a story in the germ world that's unstoppable and indestructible, about a child rocketed to Earth from a doomed planet. Is that pretty much what you were going for there?

Morrison: Yeah, pretty much. The fact that in the DC Universe there is a story about a genuinely good and moral man who can't be beat, and the fact that the DC Universe exists in the real world means that humanity made up a story about a genuinely moral man who can't be beat. That's a really cool story to learn from, especially when we're under a lot of pressure in the world today from lots of angles. So again, like I said to you earlier, it's the idea of acknowledging a genuine depth of reality to these fictions. It's not the fourth wall, it's not post-modern or meta – I hate those terms because I think they just undermine the simple notion that everything we can experience is real, including dreams and stories. These characters are in here, in the universe with us, and they have s--t to tell us. And that's what I find really exciting. They're real in the sense that you can hold them in your hands and interact with them. They don't need to pretend to live in New York. It's much more real than that – they're actually alive in our hands.

Story of DC itself has a power to last persist even longer than any writer, even in a point of destruction of the story, the story will survive and always be to be continued. But how this can be happen?

Because at the heart of DC there is an indestructible story of superman. Indestructible story comes from sentiment of self perpetuating idea of Superman as a archetypal superhero who saves the day that already embedded in writer or reader. That's why prime said the stories & Superman will be rebooted & comesback, "what does anything matter anymore" & "it will end with to be continued, as they always do". So because of indestructible story of superman, DC Comics stories will always survives.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Before i go, maybe i need to leave it here just in case someone tries to revised Superman profile.

Thought Robot isn't a story of superman. He contains Story of flaw, story of DC Multiverse(heroes & villain)with story of Superman is its heart and mandrakk isn't the evil story, evil story is the narrative in book limbo that using mandrakk to destroy DC Multiverse's Stories.

Thought Robot can be activated by fusing a two opposite energy of DC story. Superman as selfless act Hero and Ultraman as evil crime. With this combined the divine metal that contains DC story is activated.


Story of DC itself has a power to last persist even longer than any writer, even in a point of destruction of the story, the story will survive and always be to be continued. But how this can be happen?

Because at the heart of DC there is an indestructible story of superman. Indestructible story comes from sentiment of self perpetuating idea of Superman as a archetypal superhero who saves the day that already embedded in writer or reader. That's why prime said the stories & Superman will be rebooted & comesback, "what does anything matter anymore" & "it will end with to be continued, as they always do". So because of indestructible story of superman, DC Comics stories will always survives.

You're leaving vsbw?

 

[Rozeyroze]

Seems like primes retcon punch can bring people back from death even if they are in a pure psychic energy form

 

[AcidSilver]

Seems like primes retcon punch can bring people back from death even if they are in a pure psychic energy form

This isn't really anything new since Prime's reality punches are also what brought Jason Todd back to life in the first place. This is just a repeat of that.

 

[Rozeyroze]

This isn't really anything new since Prime's reality punches are also what brought Jason Todd back to life in the first place. This is just a repeat of that.

True but todd was just a dead body brought back to life, Manchester is basically pure energy and it can work on him as well.

So it works on more than just physical bodies

 

[KirbyFan03]

True but todd was just a dead body brought back to life, Manchester is basically pure energy and it can work on him as well.

So it works on more than just physical bodies

Manchester I think should have low godly regeneration as he reformed himself from psychic energy as an energy being

 

[Antvasima]

Not exactly. His high psychic energy just made him into a powerful ghost.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

I don’t think that we are going to be able to add anything of note to Manchester’s profile from this arc as he has obtained these meta fictional powers from Superboy Prime’s mind. Most importantly, it is almost certain that when this arc ends in a comic or two from now, he will return to his normal state without these powers after SBP fixes everything.

 

[Hayato5652]

He broke the comic panel again

 

[Wirtzwest]

Hey guys check out the new swamp thing 1989 issue.

 

[AndrewBennet]

New

New 52 Flash high key isn't that fast

New 52 itself should be erased . It was so ****

 

[GG55HH]

Superboy Prime beats Sentry 999 time out of 1000 with zero difficulty whatsoever. The only time that he (could) loose is because he is afraid of the Dark and the Void aspect of the Sentry could manipulate that to make Superboy Prime afraid. In this later instance the Sentey would not be able to physically hurt Superboy Prime, he would just make him too scared to continue fighting or would make him fly away in fear.

In conclusion SBP “Kills Sentry to Death”

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_Superboy_Prime_Profile

With vs wiki stats sure, I'm pretty sure he's not going to get vs stats outside vswiki

 

[PromptedElephant641]

With vs wiki stats sure, I'm pretty sure he's not going to get vs stats outside vswiki

The only stuff from outside the wiki on the profile I made is a significant portion of the powers and abilities because indexing powers and abilities is boring and tedious. These come from a profile made by Confluctor, the guy who started this discussion thread, on a different wiki site.

 

[Flopfleee786]

Hi there. I’m interested in DC cosmology and I think I have a rough understanding of it but I have some questions and figured asking them directly would be the best solution instead of skimming pages and trying to piece it together myself.

1. As far as I’m aware, the Overvoid is described as the “blank page” which upon stories are written. And then recently it’s been confirmed that the Overvoid and the Source are the same. The source is meant to be the light of god. When god spoke, “Let there be light,” the source grew onto the great darkness? So in the absolute beginning, it was the absolute creator and the great darkness. So overvoid = source = light of god? I’m not 100% sure if this is correct, but when the source came into existence, a flaw was found in it which was the DC verse. So existence and the verse was a mistake and not intentional? The Overvoid then sent dax novu to investigate it right? But my understanding of DC creation is that the source created the hands which are a species of beings that create multiverses. Perpetua being one of these hands. The source gave her the 7 forces of existence to create the multiverse. So here the source is actively creating existence but the Overvoid was shocked by the flaw of existence.
2. In vertigo, I may be wrong but existence was made through the angels lucifer, Michael and Gabriel. The presence made these 3 beings. The first in existence. Michael had the demiurgic power of raw creation. Lucifer’s will shaped it. Gabriel imposed form and pattern. How does this work with the story of the hands?
3. Mother night is the mother of the endless. But what is she exactly? She’s meant to be the nothingness before creation right? But isn’t that just the great darkness? Is she an avatar or aspect of it?
4. In vertigo, The presence admits that he was shaped by external forces. Does he mean the collective unconsciousness? If so, that means he was born in the dreaming and isn’t the true creator. If I recall correctly, I remember seeing a fan interview with one of the writers. Not sure who but they were asked if the Presence was beyond the collective unconsciousness and the writer said yes. So is the presence actually the creator?
5. I haven’t read the new flash comics but Wally encounters the arcangles and is chosen as a conduit to kill the deep change which is meant to be the originator of time. So is this an aspect of the source? Or something else? Also if the deep change is time. Then what is Father Time. He’s just useless now ain’t he? Also where does this scale Wally?
6. In vertigo, lucifer leaves creation and travels into the overvoid. Before this, the presence meets lucifer at the overvoid and the presence says “I’m happy to see you here. Outside of my plan.” This implies that all of existence was the presence’s plan. But if the overvoid is just gods light, then the overvoid is still gods plan. Lucifer hasn’t escaped anything really. So this insinuates that the Overvoid is not the plan of the presence. So what is the presence? Is he just an avatar of the actual creator? Is that what he means when “he’s shaped by external forces”?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Hey guys check out the new swamp thing 1989 issue.

It is great that DC is finishing Rick Veitch’s Swamp Thing run. The latest issue has some great art and imagery as well. Issue 75 of the original series has one of if not my favorite comic panels.

 

[Wirtzwest]

Hi there. I’m interested in DC cosmology and I think I have a rough understanding of it but I have some questions and figured asking them directly would be the best solution instead of skimming pages and trying to piece it together myself.

1. As far as I’m aware, the Overvoid is described as the “blank page” which upon stories are written. And then recently it’s been confirmed that the Overvoid and the Source are the same. The source is meant to be the light of god. When god spoke, “Let there be light,” the source grew onto the great darkness? So in the absolute beginning, it was the absolute creator and the great darkness. So overvoid = source = light of god? I’m not 100% sure if this is correct, but when the source came into existence, a flaw was found in it which was the DC verse. So existence and the verse was a mistake and not intentional? The Overvoid then sent dax novu to investigate it right? But my understanding of DC creation is that the source created the hands which are a species of beings that create multiverses. Perpetua being one of these hands. The source gave her the 7 forces of existence to create the multiverse. So here the source is actively creating existence but the Overvoid was shocked by the flaw of existence.
2. In vertigo, I may be wrong but existence was made through the angels lucifer, Michael and Gabriel. The presence made these 3 beings. The first in existence. Michael had the demiurgic power of raw creation. Lucifer’s will shaped it. Gabriel imposed form and pattern. How does this work with the story of the hands?
3. Mother night is the mother of the endless. But what is she exactly? She’s meant to be the nothingness before creation right? But isn’t that just the great darkness? Is she an avatar or aspect of it?
4. In vertigo, The presence admits that he was shaped by external forces. Does he mean the collective unconsciousness? If so, that means he was born in the dreaming and isn’t the true creator. If I recall correctly, I remember seeing a fan interview with one of the writers. Not sure who but they were asked if the Presence was beyond the collective unconsciousness and the writer said yes. So is the presence actually the creator?
5. I haven’t read the new flash comics but Wally encounters the arcangles and is chosen as a conduit to kill the deep change which is meant to be the originator of time. So is this an aspect of the source? Or something else? Also if the deep change is time. Then what is Father Time. He’s just useless now ain’t he? Also where does this scale Wally?
6. In vertigo, lucifer leaves creation and travels into the overvoid. Before this, the presence meets lucifer at the overvoid and the presence says “I’m happy to see you here. Outside of my plan.” This implies that all of existence was the presence’s plan. But if the overvoid is just gods light, then the overvoid is still gods plan. Lucifer hasn’t escaped anything really. So this insinuates that the Overvoid is not the plan of the presence. So what is the presence? Is he just an avatar of the actual creator? Is that what he means when “he’s shaped by external forces”?

2. In vertigo there are other creations aside from the Presence and the archangels, the jin ein moks are older than the presences creation.
3. Mother night is indeed the nothingness before creation older than the presence we see in lucifer and all of creation will soon return her.
4. The external forces he was shaped by are same one as the dream of a thousand cats.In vertigo Dream is responsible.
5. Father time and the deep change do have the same function as primary movers. Father time is existence itself as through him every version of creation is possible. Deepchange is the source of all time and has been compared with the source(light).
6. In vertigo the overvoid does not exist. Where lucifer met his father was the void. A funny thing happens there where the presence gives a story about the monkey King stating that whatever lucifer did to escape he will still be bound by him. Many think that this is the presence being the void. But there are better explanations than this.
1. The overvoid and the source are described as being the same as they are the pure nothingness before everything. The way their stories are handled is different though.

 

[Wirtzwest]

It is great that DC is finishing Rick Veitch’s Swamp Thing run. The latest issue has some great art and imagery as well. Issue 75 of the original series has one of if not my favorite comic panels.

A piece of art it also basically confirms the source as Top dog as well.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Sometime the writers at DC straight up forget the lore leading to some strange things:

Back during the JLA Furnace the Burning arc, it states that the Guardians of the Universe turned the Burning Martians into Green and White Martians. The problem with this is they then show this event occurring only 25,000 years ago with one of the Burning Martians even escaping captivity crashing a transport ship on Earth killing some Guardians of the universe before being encountered by Vandal Savage. This obviously does not make sense as Martians are one of the oldest races in DC with Martian Manhunter himself being 225 million years old. The ancient order of the Manhunters, a detective / police force of which Martian Manhunter was a part of, inspired the Guardians of the universe to create the android Manhunter police force before they made The Green lantern Corps. The Green Lantern corps itself is over 3 billion years old. Luckily the DC Book fixes the timeline for the Burning, stating that this event did in fact occur billions of years ago.

There is more timeline screw ups in relation to the Martians and other races. When Rami created the original 7 experimental Green Lantern Rings 10 billion years ago (these 7 rings would put aside for billions of years until the Guardians officially made the Green lantern Corps) one of these rings selected a White Martian. 10 billion years ago is more than twice the age of either Earth or Mars (~4.5 billion years old) so there shouldn't be any Martians around. Oddly enough, this is consistent at least with other DC lore as the Life Entity is also said to have started incubating within the Earth at least 10 billion years ago. So this is not as strange as it seems. The DC Book also confirms that a White Martian received a ring 10 billion years ago. Though earlier in the book they provide a timeline which states that the Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago along with the Life Entity. So the comics state 10 billion years while the DC Book states the real world age.

Another oddity from the Rami arc is another of the first 7 Green Lanterns was a Kryptonian. While the White Martian can be justified through other lore statements, Krptonians are not nearly that old. While older than humanity, they are a relatively new race. In fact Doomsday was said to have originated on Krypton some 250,000 years ago when it was a waste land; however, this date doesn't work as if it were an inhospitable wasteland only 250,000 years ago then life could not have evolved and achieved sentience fast enough for there to be a Superman in the present day. Kryptonians have likely been a civilized species for at least several hundred thousand years, maybe more than a million, but not much more than that. Regardless, the write should not have selected a Kryptonian to be amongst the first 7 experimental Green Lanterns as there is no possible way one could be there in that era without time travel.

 

[GG55HH]

The only stuff from outside the wiki on the profile I made is a significant portion of the powers and abilities because indexing powers and abilities is boring and tedious. These come from a profile made by Confluctor, the guy who started this discussion thread, on a different wiki site.

I mean stats not abilities

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

I think prime profile need a upgrade. What you guys think and even sentry?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

I think prime profile need an upgrade. What you guys think and even sentry?

I already made the new profile a month ago; however, I am doing revisions in order of power working my way up the hierarchy. I am currently working on the heralds and low level cosmic beings so it will be some time before I actually get to the SBP revision.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

I already made the new profile a month ago; however, I am doing revisions in order of power working my way up the hierarchy. I am currently working on the heralds and low level cosmic beings so it will be some time before I actually get to the SBP revision.

Nice.. I dont see time trapper doomsday where would he scale. He did mention he need to die once more to became a perfect being. or god

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Nice.. I dont see time trapper doomsday where would he scale. He did mention he need to die once more to became a perfect being. or god

He scales to Time Trapper of course. While many beings obtain, have obtained, and will obtain the mantle of Time Trapper, in reality it is all the same entity with all of the memories and history of all the beings it has ever been and will ever be contained within in it regardless of any paradox.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

H

He scales to Time Trapper of course. While many beings obtain, have obtained, and will obtain the mantle of Time Trapper, in reality it is all the same entity with all of the memories and history of all the beings it has ever been and will ever be contained within in it regardless of any paradox.

He is currently time trapper but after one more death he be entirely new thing as he said.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

H


He is currently time trapper but after one more death he be entirely new thing as he said.

Yes he does state this, but it is merely speculation. Even if it is true, and it probably is, we cannot provide a tier to that statement. If this ever gets explored in the future and he does evolve past the Time Trapper into an actual god, then we can add a key to Doomsday’s profile. In the meantime, for his appearance as the Time Trapper, any powers and abilities he showed during this time will be added to the Time Trapper page.

 

[Entity]

Yes he does state this, but it is merely speculation. Even if it is true, and it probably is, we cannot provide a tier to that statement. If this ever gets explored in the future and he does evolve past the Time Trapper into an actual god, then we can add a key to Doomsday’s profile. In the meantime, for his appearance as the Time Trapper, any powers and abilities he showed during this time will be added to the Time Trapper page.

You could make like with Infinite Zamasu (iirc) and put "eventually (new tier)"

 

[PromptedElephant641]

You could make like with Infinite Zamasu (iirc) and put "eventually (new tier)"

The difference is Infinite Zamasu has a defined upper bound eventual point that he will reach. With Doomsday it is not that clear.

The best that could be put is: likely far higher in the future (Doomsday claims that he will evolve from Time Trapper into his final evolution as a god.)

We do not know what he means by becoming a god. At its highest interpretation it would mean he becomes a true god from the Sphere of The Gods; however, there are a myriad of powerful beings from physical reality that call themselves gods as well so this is just as likely.

Doomsday implies that his domain if he became a god would be eternity (time itself). This would mean that Time Trapper is an emanation of this hypothetical “god of time”.

 

[Flopfleee786]

2. In vertigo there are other creations aside from the Presence and the archangels, the jin ein moks are older than the presences creation.
3. Mother night is indeed the nothingness before creation older than the presence we see in lucifer and all of creation will soon return her.
4. The external forces he was shaped by are same one as the dream of a thousand cats.In vertigo Dream is responsible.
5. Father time and the deep change do have the same function as primary movers. Father time is existence itself as through him every version of creation is possible. Deepchange is the source of all time and has been compared with the source(light).
6. In vertigo the overvoid does not exist. Where lucifer met his father was the void. A funny thing happens there where the presence gives a story about the monkey King stating that whatever lucifer did to escape he will still be bound by him. Many think that this is the presence being the void. But there are better explanations than this.
1. The overvoid and the source are described as being the same as they are the pure nothingness before everything. The way their stories are handled is different though.

So if the presence was created by the collective unconscious, who is the true creator in the vertigo cosmology? Also if the void there isn’t the same as the overvoid, what is that void then?

And if the presence from vertigo is the same as the normal DC continuity, then why is he considered the true absolute creator when he can die from lack of belief.

And for my first question with the story of creation with overvoid and source, if they have different stories, how is that possible since their origins are contradictory? Two different stories of creation both being cannon doesn’t seem great to me.

 

[Entity]

The difference is Infinite Zamasu has a defined upper bound eventual point that he will reach. With Doomsday it is not that clear.

The best that could be put is: likely far higher in the future (Doomsday claims that he will evolve from Time Trapper into his final evolution as a god.)

We do not know what he means by becoming a god. At its highest interpretation it would mean he becomes a true god from the Sphere of The Gods; however, there are a myriad of powerful beings from physical reality that call themselves gods as well so this is just as likely.

Doomsday implies that his domain if he became a god would be eternity (time itself). This would mean that Time Trapper is an emanation of this hypothetical “god of time”.

I mean, Superman uses his alpha energy to fight Darkseid and Doomsday was meant to fight Darkseid, so him being at level of the Sphere of Gods is almost certain and it would not be "likely far higher in the future", but "likely (tier) if he dies"

 

[Wirtzwest]

So if the presence was created by the collective unconscious, who is the true creator in the vertigo cosmology? Also if the void there isn’t the same as the overvoid, what is that void then?

And if the presence from vertigo is the same as the normal DC continuity, then why is he considered the true absolute creator when he can die from lack of belief.

And for my first question with the story of creation with overvoid and source, if they have different stories, how is that possible since their origins are contradictory? Two different stories of creation both being cannon doesn’t seem great to me.

1. Vertigo has no clear creator but mother night stands supreme as she is the nothingness before everything, though a monad has been talked about in spurrier sandman run where even the shaper(dream) assists the ur gods. This monad could be higher than mother night.
2. The presence is a the term writers use to express the supreme being in DC, dematteis has done this though through his own interpretation, synder the same but the vertigo one is not as supreme as the others.
3. A key problem with DC is the clear lack of hierarchical structure(writers coming up with tier 0 whenever) leaving us to construct this structure according to the narrative and ontology of the higher beings. The Overvoid(Morrisons), The source(Ram V and that new swamp thing run) and divine presence have been expressed as boundless primordial nothingness beyond all things this makes them similar to each other. So they can be this same expression of this immense being.
Note: The Void is a place beyond places, therefore not in God’s domain, so he cannot use his omniscience over things he does not know lord over. Here is this realm of endless nothingness, there's nothing to be known for anyone including The Almighty. The void is then beyond vertigo presence. Lucifer vol2 issue 5.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

1. Vertigo has no clear creator but mother night stands supreme as she is the nothingness before everything, though a monad has been talked about in spurrier sandman run where even the shaper(dream) assists the ur gods. This monad could be higher than mother night.
2. The presence is a the term writers use to express the supreme being in DC, dematteis has done this though through his own interpretation, synder the same but the vertigo one is not as supreme as the others.
3. A key problem with DC is the clear lack of hierarchical structure(writers coming up with tier 0 whenever) leaving us to construct this structure according to the narrative and ontology of the higher beings. The Overvoid(Morrisons), The source(Ram V and that new swamp thing run) and divine presence have been expressed as boundless primordial nothingness beyond all things this makes them similar to each other. So they can be this same expression of this immense being.
Note: The Void is a place beyond places, therefore not in God’s domain, so he cannot use his omniscience over things he does not know lord over. Here is this realm of endless nothingness, there's nothing to be known for anyone including The Almighty. The void is then beyond vertigo presence. Lucifer vol2 issue 5.

If Mothernight was the supreme being in Veritgo then Dream of the endless would not have stated "lucifer is the most powerful thing beside his creator" he would have said " he is the most powerful thing after mother night and his creator".
They are just the creator of endless not everything its when night and time meet creation are formed the the force that make them meet is void is stronger than them. Its like hecate she is was created with birth of sphere of gods but she did not cause her birth itself. Entire creation was created by perpetua during that process sphere of gods birth was happened with birth of Hecate.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

2. In vertigo there are other creations aside from the Presence and the archangels, the jin ein moks are older than the presences creation.
3. Mother night is indeed the nothingness before creation older than the presence we see in lucifer and all of creation will soon return her.
4. The external forces he was shaped by are same one as the dream of a thousand cats.In vertigo Dream is responsible.
5. Father time and the deep change do have the same function as primary movers. Father time is existence itself as through him every version of creation is possible. Deepchange is the source of all time and has been compared with the source(light).
6. In vertigo the overvoid does not exist. Where lucifer met his father was the void. A funny thing happens there where the presence gives a story about the monkey King stating that whatever lucifer did to escape he will still be bound by him. Many think that this is the presence being the void. But there are better explanations than this.
1. The overvoid and the source are described as being the same as they are the pure nothingness before everything. The way their stories are handled is different though.

Never explicitly stated all that the void lucifer went to was mother night or the void Presence and lucifer talk was mothernight.
All creation exist as germ in overvoid. Vertigo should be no different. The white void that lucifer fly into and imposes his will is not mothernight her form never shown to be white. Act of mother night meeting father time cause the birth of creation. The force that make them meet could be external which explain lucifer second creation and the original creation that he made with michael under presence.
The life span of perpetua creation which exist in overvoid is stated to be 20billion years and lucifer saw exactly 20billion years of creation of history from brith to death. It more so suggest that the void in lucifer is indeed overvoid.

 

[KirbyFan03]

1. Vertigo has no clear creator but mother night stands supreme as she is the nothingness before everything, though a monad has been talked about in spurrier sandman run where even the shaper(dream) assists the ur gods. This monad could be higher than mother night.
2. The presence is a the term writers use to express the supreme being in DC, dematteis has done this though through his own interpretation, synder the same but the vertigo one is not as supreme as the others.
3. A key problem with DC is the clear lack of hierarchical structure(writers coming up with tier 0 whenever) leaving us to construct this structure according to the narrative and ontology of the higher beings. The Overvoid(Morrisons), The source(Ram V and that new swamp thing run) and divine presence have been expressed as boundless primordial nothingness beyond all things this makes them similar to each other. So they can be this same expression of this immense being.
Note: The Void is a place beyond places, therefore not in God’s domain, so he cannot use his omniscience over things he does not know lord over. Here is this realm of endless nothingness, there's nothing to be known for anyone including The Almighty. The void is then beyond vertigo presence. Lucifer vol2 issue 5.

DCs Supreme Being is The Unknowable

 

[Flopfleee786]

Never explicitly stated all that the void lucifer went to was mother night or the void Presence and lucifer talk was mothernight.
All creation exist as germ in overvoid. Vertigo should be no different. The white void that lucifer fly into and imposes his will is not mothernight her form never shown to be white. Act of mother night meeting father time cause the birth of creation. The force that make them meet could be external which explain lucifer second creation and the original creation that he made with michael under presence.
The life span of perpetua creation which exist in overvoid is stated to be 20billion years and lucifer saw exactly 20billion years of creation of history from brith to death. It more so suggest that the void in lucifer is indeed overvoid.

So existence exists as a flaw in the overvoid which shocked the overvoid and in turn it created the monitors to investigate it.

Existence was also made by the source, which gave the 7 forces of creation to the hands like perpetua to create multiverses.

These two stories of creation are contradictory since the overvoid=source.