Deltarune: Chapter 5 (SPOILER!!) Discussion Thread

[Ghengiroo115]

I can reupload it to IMG BB if that's a better host for y'all

That one seems to work for me so if everyone else is chill with it then I don’t mind.

Again it’s not too big a deal if I can’t access it. I’ll happily wait for the threads if I need to.

"You... you can ignore my fake statistics?!" isn't really the reaction someone would have if they were genuinely just for show and nothing more.

I also do think he was using them against us in his fight, at least to an extent.
A "Non fake" Flowery wouldn't have been much of a challenge considering he fails to deal any damage to the Knight unlike the CH3 gang.

Personally I don’t think he was using them at all, as I don’t see why he’d only give himself some fake stats and not all-or-nothing. His whole thing is trying to beat the Gang with the power of friendship, and he also knows deep down that he’d eventually die if the fountain is never sealed, so it’d make sense narratively for him to want more of a fair fight against the Gang (either that or the Gang are just immune to it like the Knight).

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The knight apparently recived damage has shown by the animation of when he recives more than 100 point of damage

Plus, Flowery out-speed the knight

Didn't the Knight legit just ram into a wall and then Flowery showed up? I don't think he "out-sped" the Knight at all

He kept up with the Knight's bird form for a few seconds, then they accelerated and rammed into a wall. Yeah, the Knight is definitely way faster than Flowery

That one seems to work for me so if everyone else is chill with it then I don’t mind.

Sure thing! I will work on it. I'm sure @LittleGuy99 also has a collection of their own anyway.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Personally I don’t think he was using them at all, as I don’t see why he’d only give himself some fake stats and not all-or-nothing. His whole thing is trying to beat the Gang with the power of friendship, and he also knows deep down that he’d eventually die if the fountain is never sealed, so it’d make sense narratively for him to want more of a fair fight against the Gang (either that or the Gang are just immune to it like the Knight).

Maybe he knows Ralsei would turn him to ash if he did

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This is a reality where fantasy and willpower dictate effect, the fake statistics should've at least tricked someone into being harmed. The Knight simply had a stronger fantasy.

Ye, that's why I said it should be indexed as Subjective Reality. Like a popular example of it is Joker's gun from Persona, it's empty but cause everybody has the idea that gun = dangerous, it still deals damage or smth like that. Flowery's stats should function in a similar way.

He fought the Knight to a stand still after using the fake statistics, "fails to deal any damage" is far from being true, he was just using fake numbers, he didn't fail a genuine attempt.

I don't mind the way you put it, I'd just prefer a "possibly", since in an actual fight, he doesn't use it.

He just pushed the Knight's blade back a little and then immediately got sliced in half. CH3 Susie can do basically the same thing and even crack the Knight's blade.
His performance isn't really something I'd say Tenna or someone else of that caliber couldn't replicate.

I also really don't think it should be indexed as a "possibly" cause genuinely, it doesn't really change much?
He has more ATK than the Titan and its Spawn, but less DEF than both of them, really not unreasonable for the Main Boss right after them, ya know?
Also considering we know CHECK and RECRUIT stats are different, I dont think you can use the RECRUIT stats as an argument.

 

[Edutyn]

He kept up with the Knight's bird form for a few seconds, then they accelerated and rammed into a wall. Yeah, the Knight is definitely way faster than Flowery

I was referering to this, even the background stopped moving

 

[Randomuser3412]

I was referering to this

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I also really don't think it should be indexed as a "possibly" cause genuinely, it doesn't really change much?

Actually forgot the 999s against the Knight, actually fine with him just being 7-B with a possibly far higher with Subjective Reality

 

[Randomuser3412]

The Knight did apparently take real damage, at least for a moment there. Can we say it has at least 9991 HP?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

A young woman from the city, named Qingniang, was renowned for both her beauty and her talent in paper-cutting. Hearing the divine message, she resolved to sacrifice herself to save her people. She walked out into the storm and either disappeared into the floodwaters or was taken away by the dragon

Cool reference..."noelle"

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I dont think you can use the RECRUIT stats as an argument.

Well, we don't have the "check" version, so it has to be the argument, ig? He should be comparable to other minions, since the damage he deals is comparable or inferior to them.

The Knight did apparently take real damage, at least for a moment there. Can we say it has at least 9991 HP?

Actually forgot the 999s against the Knight, actually fine with him just being 7-B with a possibly far higher with Subjective Reality

We know how much HP it has, if the 999s were legitimate (they are not, it's literally the fake statistics), they would've died.

 

[Randomuser3412]

We know how much HP it has, if the 999s were legitimate (they are not, it's literally the fake statistics), they would've died.

Ah, yes, because the intention of the "???" HP was not to not reveal how much hp it actually has. That wouldn't even be there if the Knight was really just supposed to have 7300 HP.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

We know how much HP it has, if the 999s were legitimate (they are not, it's literally the fake statistics), they would've died.

Tenna takes 5900 from the Knight and survives despite only having 5500 HP in-game. Toby also had MTT NEO and sans take damage in the billions and still act/move afterwards sooo

 

[Randomuser3412]

Tenna takes 5900 from the Knight and survives despite only having 5500 HP in-game. Toby also had MTT NEO and sans take damage in the billions and still act/move afterwards sooo

Doesn't Tenna literally die if his Darkner friends (or Susie) don't repair him

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ah, yes, because the intention of the "???" HP was not to not reveal how much hp it actually has. That wouldn't even be there if the Knight was really just supposed to have 7300 HP.

The statistics are fake and they're revealed to be zero, why are you trying to argue that the 999s are legitimate when both the Knight and the GUY THAT HIT THEM say they're fake? Why does EVERYTHING has to be a debate with you people?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Tenna takes 5900 from the Knight and survives despite only having 5500 HP in-game

You mean Tenna takes enough damage to be defeated in the scene where he is defeated and will die without aid? Wow.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Doesn't Tenna literally die if his Darkner friends (or Susie) don't repair him

Doesn’t Susie say they found him barely alive or smth, don't remember the exact line tho

 

[Randomuser3412]

The statistics are fake and they're revealed to be zero, why are you trying to argue that the 999s are legitimate when both the Knight and the GUY THAT HIT THEM say they're fake? Why does EVERYTHING has to be a debate with you people?

Because it CLEARLY did take actual damage. The Knight was showing the heavy static effect that only happens when it takes major damage. If it GENUINELY was nothing, then the Knight would have had no reaction. Flowery CAN'T have actually done no damage initially. There'd be genuinely no point for him even attacking the Knight like that if it would do nothing anyway

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Doesn’t Susie say they found him barely alive or smth, don't remember the exact line tho

Yeah, you can also bring regular enemies' HP to 0, and they're not exactly dead, are they?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Because it CLEARLY did take actual damage

The damage from his ACTUAL STATS are not 999, which you are TRYING TO CLAIM, that's a DIFFERENT POINT ENTIRELY.

Like genuinely, all the animation tells us is that the damage the Knight took was superior to 100, nothing else.

"Let's ignore the actual stated evidence because animation and non-sequitur"

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yeah, you can also bring regular enemies' HP to 0, and they're not exactly dead, are they?

What is even the argument anymore?
Flowery couldn't have dealt the 999s to the Knight cause it would've reduced their HP to 0, but characters can still act when their GP is reduced to 0.

 

[Randomuser3412]

The damage from his ACTUAL STATS are not 999, which you are TRYING TO CLAIM, that's a DIFFERENT POINT ENTIRELY.

Like genuinely, all the animation tells us is that the damage the Knight took was superior to 100, nothing else.

"Let's ignore the actual stated evidence because animation and non-sequitur"

...What? You're now indirectly claiming the Knight can ignore the damage done from Flowery's "ACTUAL STATS?" Genuinely, what the hell are you talking about? Either the Knight took damage or it didn't. Are you trying to claim there's some hidden, real damage that Flowery did under the "999s" that we just never see?

Doesn’t Susie say they found him barely alive or smth, don't remember the exact line tho

Tenna does genuinely die if Susie doesn't repair him

 

[GodlyCharmander]

What is even the argument anymore?
Flowery couldn't have dealt the 999s to the Knight cause it would've reduced their HP to 0, but characters can still act when their GP is reduced to 0.

It's not 999 based on four different arguments, you're focusing on the weakest one for some weird reason.

But your counterpoint doesn't work, when a character is dealt with immense amount of damage that brings their HP instantly to 0, they either pass out and are barely alive, or are so deeply harmed they run away from battle. Neither happened, so the Knight's HP is not even remotely close to 0. Also the knight starts teleporting and glitching when their HP is brought to 80% in their fight, why are we debating this?

Like, just index Flowery as "capable of harming the knight", why do you need his damage to be 999 when that numbers are stated to be fake and changed to a zero. Why are you PRETENDING that I'm saying Flowery did 0 damage, when in reality I'm just saying the numbers displayed do not match his damage.

I don't get why the simplest things need to be this difficult, powerscaling (here specifically) is genuinely ruining my enjoyment of this chapter.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Tenna does genuinely die if Susie doesn't repair him

Don't that just say that they couldn't find Tenna?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You're now indirectly claiming the Knight can ignore the damage done from Flowery's

I'm not claiming anything even remotely close to that. What is your problem?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Are you trying to claim there's some hidden, real damage that Flowery did under the "999s" that we just never see?

YES.

THE 999s

TURN INTO 000s

AND ARE STATED TO BE FAKE

SO THEY DON'T REPRESENT THE ACTUAL DAMAGE.

I'M NOT SAYING THE DAMAGE IS 0

I'M SAYING FLOWERY MADE IT SEEM LIKE IT WAS 999S


I'm done. I'm done, don't quote me anymore.

 

[Randomuser3412]

It's not 999 based on four different arguments, you're focusing on the weakest one for some weird reason.

But your counterpoint doesn't work, when a character is dealt with immense amount of damage that brings their HP instantly to 0, they either pass out and are barely alive, or are so deeply harmed they run away from battle. Neither happened, so the Knight's HP is not even remotely close to 0. Also the knight starts teleporting and glitching when their HP is brought to 80% in their fight, why are we debating this?

Like, just index Flowery as "capable of harming the knight", why do you need his damage to be 999 when that numbers are stated to be fake and changed to a zero. Why are you PRETENDING that I'm saying Flowery did 0 damage, when in reality I'm just saying the numbers displayed do not match his damage.

I don't get why the simplest things need to be this difficult, powerscaling (here specifically) is genuinely ruining my enjoyment of this chapter.

The Knight is dealt significantly more than 80% of their HP by the end of the fight if you actually "win." This is because the Knight "lets its guard down" after the final attack, which prompts the next attack to severely damage it.

Your argument is already presupposing the Knight has 7300 HP, which shouldn't be the case as Toby explicitly wants us NOT to know how much HP the Knight actually has (hence the ??? HP instead of a percentage)

YES.

THE 999s

TURN INTO 000s

AND ARE STATED TO BE FAKE

SO THEY DON'T REPRESENT THE ACTUAL DAMAGE.

I'M NOT SAYING THE DAMAGE IS 0

I'M SAYING FLOWERY MADE IT SEEM LIKE IT WAS 999S


I'm done. I'm done, don't quote me anymore.

All right

 

[Randomuser3412]

Flowery: "Ahh, yes, I'm going to make up my statistics for genuinely no reason even though it does not help me at all. Despite Raly implying that I am actually empowering myself by doing so, this doesn't help me in any way!"

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yeah sorry Charmander but your interpretation just has to go through too many hoops (We apparently weren't supposed to take the 000 as actually 0 damage but as just an indicator that the initial numbers were false, which is why we get other false numbers when the Knight cuts through them Ig?) when the other interpretation (Flowery did 999 damage through Subjective Reality nonsense, Knight resists that shit making them 000 damage) is just way simpler.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Yeah sorry Charmander but your interpretation just has to go through too many hoops (We apparently weren't supposed to take the 000 as actually 0 damage but as just an indicator that the initial numbers were false, which is why we get other false numbers when the Knight cuts through them Ig?) when the other interpretation (Flowery did 999 damage through Subjective Reality nonsense, Knight resists that shit making them 000 damage) is just way simpler.

The real answer here is that the Knight is able to negate any form of damage, of course.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

The real answer here is that the Knight is able to negate any form of damage, of course.

The knight have plot armor guys

They literally made of glass and the reason they glitch is the same reason memory head is a glitch

They are a collection of memorys

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Spoiler: how I see the fake stats

Flowery’s “fake stats” are in practice just stats that can be ignored if you’re immune to them, like the Knight. If Flowery tried to attack a Rudinn or something, it would probably actually register as 999 damage (either the Rudinn would actually be damaged by this or it would just think it was, whichever makes more sense).

In the fight against Flowery, iirc his stats weren’t represented by numbers but rather images of golden flowers, so we don’t know if he had his fake stats activated or not. However since the Gang don’t just immediately die, Flowery either wasn’t using them or they’re immune like the Knight (in other words, anything Flowery does in the fight is based off of real stats).

Flowery in the fight is amped by eight recruits, so he’s more powerful there than he is against the Knight. Flowery doing 0 damage to the Knight after his fake stats were nullified suggests he’s weaker than the Chapter 3 Gang, however him clashing with the Knight for a few moments could put him relative to them (considering Susie barely overpowered a glitching Knight). You could also maybe argue that Flowery should be relative to Chapter 5 enemies, who would downscale from the Gang using any of these three options since they would make up most of Flowery’s power in his boss fight.

TL;DR, my suggestions are (using the wiki’s current tiers):

1. Unknown (don’t give him any definitive stats if he’s weaker than the Chapter 3 Gang and has no other showings outside of the Knight fight)
2. 8-A (based on his clash with the Knight, scale him relatively to the Chapter 3 Gang)
3. High 7-C (if comparable to chapter 5 enemies, then his base form would give him 1/9th of the power he has in his boss fight)

 

[Randomuser3412]

Spoiler: how I see the fake stats

Flowery’s “fake stats” are in practice just stats that can be ignored if you’re immune to them, like the Knight. If Flowery tried to attack a Rudinn or something, it would probably actually register as 999 damage (either the Rudinn would actually be damaged by this or it would just think it was, whichever makes more sense).

In the fight against Flowery, iirc his stats weren’t represented by numbers but rather images of golden flowers, so we don’t know if he had his fake stats activated or not. However since the Gang don’t just immediately die, Flowery either wasn’t using them or they’re immune like the Knight (in other words, anything Flowery does in the fight is based off of real stats).

Flowery in the fight is amped by eight recruits, so he’s more powerful there than he is against the Knight. Flowery doing 0 damage to the Knight after his fake stats were nullified suggests he’s weaker than the Chapter 3 Gang, however him clashing with the Knight for a few moments could put him relative to them (considering Susie barely overpowered a glitching Knight). You could also maybe argue that Flowery should be relative to Chapter 5 enemies, who would downscale from the Gang using any of these three options since they would make up most of Flowery’s power in his boss fight.

TL;DR, my suggestions are (using the wiki’s current tiers):

1. Unknown (don’t give him any definitive stats if he’s weaker than the Chapter 3 Gang and has no other showings outside of the Knight fight)
2. 8-A (based on his clash with the Knight, scale him relatively to the Chapter 3 Gang)
3. High 7-C (if comparable to chapter 5 enemies, then his base form would give him 1/9th of the power he has in his boss fight)

Didn't Flowery literally physically bully Ralsei into a wardrobe within the first 5 minutes of the Dark World?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Didn't Flowery literally physically bully Ralsei into a wardrobe within the first 5 minutes of the Dark World?

He did yeah, so the Gang probably aren’t immune to it. I think Flowery choosing not to use his fake stats in his boss fight made more sense anyway for the reasons I gave before (plus if there’s no definitive answer, then it’s better to go with the option that doesn’t give the Gang a resistance.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I agree with Charmander. Those stats are explicitly fake. They're just for show. They clearly don't do anything.

It's like using a fake ID. It may look real, it may fool someone, but it has no actual legal power.

I don't think we should try and turn this into some kinda statistics warping and claim that the Knight can negate that. The Knight quite literally just ignores Flowery's fake ID

 

[Da3ggman]

Spoiler

(Not saying the main sun definitely isn’t a real sun, just that I noticed a complication)

Tier 4 Deltarune continues to be a joke I can’t even anymore lmao

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I agree with Charmander. Those stats are explicitly fake. They're just for show. They clearly don't do anything.

This just makes Flowery look really stupid

 

[ShockingPsychic]

He IS very stupid??? He took on the strongest individual in the game while saying things like "How do you like my jarona", he is indeed very in over his head

 

[Randomuser3412]

He did yeah, so the Gang probably aren’t immune to it. I think Flowery choosing not to use his fake stats in his boss fight made more sense anyway for the reasons I gave before.

Methinks he would have had more of a reaction if they were immune to it, like he did against the Knight. He's obviously not trying to kill them (you don't actually die if you lose the fight, he just sends you back), but he could easily incapacitate you with his fake stats rather than kill you if he wanted to. He also makes a comment on hesitating for a moment when he clashes with Kris in the Omega Flowery form iirc. Could be something to look into.

I agree with Charmander. Those stats are explicitly fake. They're just for show. They clearly don't do anything.

It's like using a fake ID. It may look real, it may fool someone, but it has no actual legal power.

I don't think we should try and turn this into some kinda statistics warping and claim that the Knight can negate that. The Knight quite literally just ignores Flowery's fake ID

What is "if I let myself go like you, I could... I could burn you down in an instant" along with "Maybe you already have everything you need. Why not just... put faith in yourself?" supposed to mean if Flowery "letting himself go" and breaking the rules, manipulating his stats willy-nilly doesn't actually mean anything?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Being confident and doing the equivalent of trying to go Super Saiyan in a IRL fight are very different.

Especially when he does the smart thing of forcing the Knight into a battle to prevent them from escaping the scene prior.

 

[Da3ggman]

Does anyone have a clip of Justice busting that stone block?