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Deltarune: Chapter 5 (SPOILER!!) Discussion Thread

GodlyCharmander said:
Media Literacy, the game:

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If the topic of "let's index Flowery fake stats as legitimate" is brought up again, I'm going to lose my mind.
Click to expand...
"but, with hope, can he make it real!?" Yeah
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
So why is Flowery surprised when his fake statistics have no effect on the Knight? Why does the Knight have to intentionally cut off the bottom of the 9s to turn them into 0s? What would happen if Flowery used them against someone who couldn’t ignore the fake statistics?
Click to expand...

I don't know and I don't have to know. The game never presented those fake statistics in any other context, and Flowery objectively doesn't use it in a fight against us. That's Toby's job, not mine.

That's over eight (8) statements saying his (fake) attacks are fake, an illusion, useless, etc. Counter question, if we consider his fake statistics to be legitimate, what aspect of it is fake? How does the adjective apply narratively if we just run over every statement?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Careful, you'll be met by the worst possible example with other series that have other kind of evidence, even though Deltarune doesn't fit any criteria. The entire scaling of the series is built around that.

I'm completely vindicated, the DW are just a fantasy and illusion, you DON'T need to produce or sustain an accurate amount of energy to create a DW, and yet we still scale characters like they do. But if I try to make a CRT to remove that, take a wild guess what will happen.
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Yeah like the Omori example someone brought up really doesn't apply here. I don't really know much about Omori but Dark Worlds in Deltarune are quite literally entirely based on vibes. There's some rules but this is still a game being written by Toby Fox where sometimes characters can just do things because it would be funny or cool. This really should have been obvious all the way back in Undertale where Sans can just do shit like hurt you in the battle menu or dodge attacks just because. He's not dodging because he's secretly the Flash, he's just abusing game mechanics yet his page has this as part of the explanation for his speed: "(Capable of consistently dodging Frisk to such a degree that they could never land a hit on Sans, even if they reset and knew exactly what he would do and where he would be, and even if he was asleep."
 
So it was with vibes. The term originated in the world of jazz, as a slang reference to the vibraphone (also known as the vibraharp), a mallet-percussion instrument invented in 1916 that resembles the xylophone except that, like the steel marimba, it has a much mellower and deeper sound.
 
AcidSilver said:
the Omori example someone brought up really doesn't apply here
Click to expand...
No example people use in this forum applies to Deltarune. It's a different context + verse equalization. The dream world has its own way to deal with energy, the Dark World stuff is using realistic metrics to get a level of energy in a place where that realism is a suggestion, it's inherently self-contradictory. But you'd caught me dead before I attempted to fix that again. Let people laugh at FTL Kris, I'll join them.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
No example people use in this forum applies to Deltarune. It's a different context + verse equalization. The dream world has its own way to deal with energy, the Dark World stuff is using realistic metrics to get a level of energy in a place where that realism is a suggestion, it's inherently self-contradictory. But you'd caught me dead before I attempted to fix that again. Let people laugh at FTL Kris, I'll join them.
Click to expand...

Okay but what if it mix-up ?
 
AcidSilver said:
Yeah like the Omori example someone brought up really doesn't apply here. I don't really know much about Omori but Dark Worlds in Deltarune are quite literally entirely based on vibes. There's some rules but this is still a game being written by Toby Fox where sometimes characters can just do things because it would be funny or cool. This really should have been obvious all the way back in Undertale where Sans can just do shit like hurt you in the battle menu or dodge attacks just because. He's not dodging because he's secretly the Flash, he's just abusing game mechanics yet his page has this as part of the explanation for his speed: "(Capable of consistently dodging Frisk to such a degree that they could never land a hit on Sans, even if they reset and knew exactly what he would do and where he would be, and even if he was asleep."
Click to expand...
That wasn't an actual argument, I was just being a bit facetious (you should expect that of me). For context, the world actually scaled in OMORI is a genuine dream world that's nothing more than that.
 
Randomuser3412 said:
I think that's a more realistic interpretation of that line
Click to expand...
What interpretation? The line is not implying anything. It's stating, FULL STOP, that his powers are an illusion, which matches all the evidence we have, while giving him a hopeful wish, not confirming nor denying that it will come to fruition. It's interpreting fanfiction to suggest that the line implies that his shit could be real in a hypothetical scenario that never happened.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
What interpretation? The line is not implying anything. It's stating, FULL STOP, that his powers are an illusion, which matches all the evidence we have, while giving him a hopeful wish, not confirming nor denying that it will come to fruition. It's interpreting fanfiction to suggest that the line implies that his shit could be real in a hypothetical scenario that never happened.
Click to expand...
Yeah, man, I was agreeing with you.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
What interpretation? The line is not implying anything. It's stating, FULL STOP, that his powers are an illusion, which matches all the evidence we have, while giving him a hopeful wish, not confirming nor denying that it will come to fruition. It's interpreting fanfiction to suggest that the line implies that his shit could be real in a hypothetical scenario that never happened.
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Meaning noelle realise the light world it also a ilusion...she echidna..
 
GodlyCharmander said:
My bad. The quoting of my critique of VSBW scaling made me think you were trying to imply @LittleGuy99's interpretation was valid (and thus my critique wasn't fair).

I'm sorry :(
Click to expand...
Sorry. I just clicked "reply" to the message and that's what happened.
But, yeah, I can't, in good conscience agree that the line "But with hope can he make it real!?" is supposed to imply his "fake statistics" are "real"
 
I don't think the "fake" statistics are "real", it's just that they affect everything else which is to some extent the same level of "fake" or is above Flowery's will and hope (Eden can say it better than me lol)
 
GodlyCharmander said:
That's over eight (8) statements saying his (fake) attacks are fake, an illusion, useless, etc. Counter question, if we consider his fake statistics to be legitimate, what aspect of it is fake? How does the adjective apply narratively if we just run over every statement?
Click to expand...
They're "fake" in the sense that he just gave himself those stats as a byproduct of him willing it/understanding how Dark Worlds work as a fantasy rather than through "natural" means like LVing up or getting better equipment. Basically like how in Lucid Dream you can basically do anything you believe you can.
So then it makes sense for Fantasy-Breaker Roaring Knight, the lad who forces you to face reality, to be the one thing immune to it.

Like come on man
GodlyCharmander said:
I don't know and I don't have to know.
Click to expand...
The issue is that your interpretation, and I'm talking SPECIFICALLY AND ONLY your interpretation, ends up making that scene completely nonsensical.
Either that or making Flowery as dumb as a rock.

Like I dunno why you're so against the big on fantasy verse having the standard "You can do whatever you want in your dreams" logic that basically every similar verse has.
 
Randomuser3412 said:
Sorry. I just clicked "reply" to the message and that's what happened.
But, yeah, I can't, in good conscience agree that the line "But with hope can he make it real!?" is supposed to imply his "fake statistics" are "real"
Click to expand...

With hope cross om her heart

HOPES AND DREAMS

LAST DREAM

THE POWER OF LOST DREAMS !

THE POWER OF NEO

THE TRUE HERO POWER !!!
 
LittleGuy99 said:
Not really but arguing with you is unnecessary (Good vibes)
Click to expand...
It's quite funny you think you could argue with me.

Tell me which object got turned into the sun. You can't.
Tell me why is there a sun at all if not for fantasy. You can't.
Tell me why the sky changes in several moments and why the background turns black once Asgore gives up on the dream. You can't.
Tell me why that particular room, which is literally just an open space to the sunset, would be the only place where the sun is fake. You can't.
Tell me why the sun can move up and down based on vibes. You can't.


You will genuinely believe that the characters that get stopped by rocks, and can't break a wooden door are Solar System level over admitting the scaling makes no sense.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
It's quite funny you think you could argue with me.

Tell me which object got turned into the sun. You can't.
Tell me why is there a sun at all if not for fantasy. You can't.
Tell me why the sky changes in several moments and why the background turns black once Asgore gives up on the dream. You can't.
Tell me why that particular room, which is literally just an open space to the sunset, would be the only place where the sun is fake. You can't.
Tell me why the sun can move up and down based on vibes. You can't.


You will genuinely believe that the characters that get stopped by rocks, and can't break a wooden door are Solar System level over admitting the scaling makes no sense.
Click to expand...
I think the sun is supposed to be the Flower's doing, to be honest. It looks like it changes color from the Flower's power. Anyway, the clouds go behind the sun, so it's not real lol
 
GodlyCharmander said:
It's quite funny you think you could argue with me.

Tell me which object got turned into the sun. You can't.
Tell me why is there a sun at all if not for fantasy. You can't.
Tell me why the sky changes in several moments and why the background turns black once Asgore gives up on the dream. You can't.
Tell me why that particular room, which is literally just an open space to the sunset, would be the only place where the sun is fake. You can't.
Tell me why the sun can move up and down based on vibes. You can't.


You will genuinely believe that the characters that get stopped by rocks, and can't break a wooden door are Solar System level over admitting the scaling makes no sense.
Click to expand...

I can tell what its...
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
They're "fake" in the sense that he just gave himself those stats as a byproduct of him willing it/understanding how Dark Worlds work as a fantasy rather than through "natural" means like LVing up or getting better equipment. Basically like how in Lucid Dream you can basically do anything you believe you can.
So then it makes sense for Fantasy-Breaker Roaring Knight, the lad who forces you to face reality, to be the one thing immune to it.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't make them fake, that'd make them cheated. If they're legitimate, if they represent his power accurately, they wouldn't be fake.
We're playing the semantics game, and why? Because you can't possibly engage with the actual argument?

Stop using "natural" like it's the antonym of fake, it's not.

They're fake because he says his defense is 99 while taking SIGNIFICANT damage from us.
They're fake because he claims to have 99 ATK but can't one shot us.
They're fake because that's the point of the character.
Eden_Warlock99 said:
The issue is that your interpretation, and I'm talking SPECIFICALLY AND ONLY your interpretation, ends up making that scene completely nonsensical.
Either that or making Flowery as dumb as a rock.
Click to expand...

The issue is that you can't accurately depict my interpretation. My interpretation is that his fake statistics have some effect based on his actual, genuine strength, plus the intent to deceive the Knight into thinking he's stronger than he actually is.

Oh wow, that's really not possible with the character ENTIRELY MADE ON THE PREMISE TO BE AN ILLUSION. I guess my interpretation makes it everything nonsensical!!

Oh no, that's just you making a fuss 10x worse than it actually is.
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Like I dunno why you're so against the big on fantasy verse having the standard "You can do whatever you want in your dreams" logic that basically every similar verse has.
Click to expand...

That's not the problem and you know that. The problem is that the entire concept and theme of Flowery is that he is putting up a farce, an illusion, his statistics are fake, and he never uses them in ACTUAL COMBAT. Not once.

No it's the fake you can't point to a single moment where he successfully represented these stats despite we having several, SEVERAL instances where he would want to, and yet you still hold your stance.

"Fantasy verse that can create anything with its mechanics" /=/ "Character deliberately changing text"
 
GodlyCharmander said:
It's quite funny you think you could argue with me.

Tell me which object got turned into the sun. You can't.
Tell me why is there a sun at all if not for fantasy. You can't.
Tell me why the sky changes in several moments and why the background turns black once Asgore gives up on the dream. You can't.
Tell me why that particular room, which is literally just an open space to the sunset, would be the only place where the sun is fake. You can't.
Tell me why the sun can move up and down based on vibes. You can't.


You will genuinely believe that the characters that get stopped by rocks, and can't break a wooden door are Solar System level over admitting the scaling makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Being far... unless they legit are like, 9-B... wouldn't that contradict every calc for the verse? I literally couldn't care less about tier 4 Delta Warriors btw... Legit curious
 
Omegabronic said:
Finally finished Chapter 5... THE SECRET BOSS REALLY WAS A PINK AND YELLOW CAT...girl... Is FRIEND even gonna be relevant?
Click to expand...
Btw were y'all confused why the Manequin protect against Spamtom NEO Specifically and the Tasques?... Yeah... guess NEO body was Mad Dummy's... Aka.... Spamtom NEO is, now... CANNONICALLY A FURRY CATGIRL... do what you will with this info
 
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