Deltarune: Chapter 5 (SPOILER!!) Discussion Thread

[Ghengiroo115]

What’s everyone’s rankings for each chapter now?

For me:

• Gameplay:
  1. Festival Day
  2. Late Night
  3. A Cyber’s World
  4. Prophecy
  5. The Beginning
• Story & Characters:
  1. Prophecy
  2. A Cyber’s World
  3. Festival Day
  4. Late Night
  5. The Beginning
• Overall:
  1. A Cyber’s World
  2. Prophecy
  3. Festival Day
  4. Late Night
  5. The Beginning

 

[Galactidot]

I don't get why the simplest things need to be this difficult, powerscaling (here specifically) is genuinely ruining my enjoyment of this chapter.

Then hop off

You can start being rude and condescending once people actually start making CRTs you disagree with or speak with zero basis.

The whole point of this game is that what is "fake" is somewhat subjective. Hence, Flowery's "fake stats" are denied by the Knight who seems to have some sort of bypass, but Flowery just as easily is far stronger than the majority of the cast, and outspeeds them on multiple occasions.

If arguing on forums is ruining your enjoyment, just... don't do it?

 

[Galactidot]

i think the damage is real since the knighted bothered, the stats being fake is probably referring to them being forced on like ralsei said, as in, flowery wasn't supposed to be that strong but made himself be so

Re-watching this and the knight literally cut the 9s and turn them into 0s (?). If they were really fake, the kinght wouldn't even have had to bother doing anything or really would nedd to cut the 9s, since it wouldn't have made her flinch.

Hard agree. Besides, The Knight loves to aurafarm, so if it would've had no difference to just NOT cut the numbers, I feel they would've done it cuz it would've looked cooler. In a joking and serious manner.

haven't been here in a bit but hopefully I'm not steering the conversation too far away

Wanted to follow up on that sun argument, especially in regards to the fox that I hate

So uh I came to the conclusion that the fox wasn't actually the same sun we see earlier rather probably just mimicing it. This is because the fox enemies can disguise themselves as different things to decide the protagonists because they're tricky fellows. For one example the first time you meet it it's disguised as a floradinn and it wants mushrooms from Kris. Kinda like how another one disguised itself as a sun to trick Kris and snatch that mushroom from them later...

there's also the fact that when in disguise, they have slight inconsistencies like the bullets looking off and their appearances having slight differences as well, and the sun we see it disguised as is green, hilighting an inconsistency.

The fact that when the sun vanishes and turns into a fox, the sky doesn't darken completely like at the end of the chapter when the sun fully goes down it goes pitch black. So combining it with what I just mentioned it could likely just be some gag thing that's probably irrelevant , but I want to hear more thoughts on this theory idk.

Also ralsei ANGRY this chapter

Agree!

 

[Galactidot]

What’s everyone’s rankings for each chapter now?

For me:

• Gameplay:
  1. Festival Day
  2. Late Night
  3. A Cyber’s World
  4. Prophecy
  5. The Beginning
• Story & Characters:
  1. Prophecy
  2. A Cyber’s World
  3. Festival Day
  4. Late Night
  5. The Beginning
• Overall:
  1. A Cyber’s World
  2. Prophecy
  3. Festival Day
  4. Late Night
  5. The Beginning

• Gameplay:
  1. Festival Day
  2. Late Night
  3. A Cyber’s World
  4. Prophecy
  5. The Beginning
• Story & Characters:
  1. Prophecy
  2. Festival Day
  3. A Cyber’s World
  4. Late Night
  5. The Beginning
• Overall:
  1. Festival Day
  2. A Cyber’s World
  3. Prophecy
  4. Late Night
  5. The Beginning

 

[Galactidot]

Hard agree. Besides, The Knight loves to aurafarm, so if it would've had no difference to just NOT cut the numbers, I feel they would've done it cuz it would've looked cooler. In a joking and serious manner.



Agree!

Also, as for the sun issue, do we know how exactly Netskies work? Whether they're transforming or casting illusions is a massive difference, regardless of whether the sun is "fake" or not.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Also, as for the sun issue, do we know how exactly Netskies work? Whether they're transforming or casting illusions is a massive difference, regardless of whether the sun is "fake" or not.

From what I've seen, they just copy things they've already seen

 

[Galactidot]

From what I've seen, they just copy things they've already seen

So how the **** does it turn into the sun lmao

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Also, as for the sun issue, do we know how exactly Netskies work? Whether they're transforming or casting illusions is a massive difference, regardless of whether the sun is "fake" or not.

I think they full-on transform. There’s that one room with all those statues with a Netskie taking the form of one until you drop it down a hole, and iirc that statue had the same hitbox and weight from pushing it as all the others. Them copying the attacks of characters they transform into (including notable characters like Aqua) supports this idea. I think the Netskie turning into the sun, even if not really sun-sized would still be a pretty good feat.

So how the **** does it turn into the sun lmao

Netskies turning into almost identical copies of stuff is insane if the sun is real, not just for strength but also because that would mean it flying to get the mushroom is like an MFTL feat LMAO.

y’know maybe the sun isn’t real

 

[Edutyn]

Netskies turning into almost identical copies of stuff is insane if the sun is real, not just for strength but also because that would mean it flying to get the mushroom is like an MFTL feat LMAO.

y’know maybe the sun isn’t real

i did a quick calc assuming that it had the same density as the sun, it give Class G (500 millions), H7-C+ PE and for fun i calc the KE: 1.6 megatons

 

[Pegasus124467]

my headcanons is that the Netskie sun was much closer and smaller meaning the speed feat is bunk and in mach ranges not mftl

 

[RinneItachi]

My take on the fake stats thing;

Spoiler: Ch. 5

Ralsei and Flowery have weird meta knowledge of the game's mechanics beyond what most characters do. Susie didn't really have awareness of the battle menu before Flowery mentioned it to her. Flowery implies Ralsei can do the same things as him and has been holding back intentionally, though I do think Ralsei is a different case as well.

Flowery can modify his stats however he wants because he is aware of them. But these stats are alterations that he makes of his own volition and weren't gained by him through "natural" means. The Knight most likely also has a similar or higher degree of awareness of the mechanics of the Dark World's, knows those stats are just modified by Flowery and therefor not "real", and can disregard them as such.

It is very much subjective reality manipulation, but also sort of an illusory thing. The stats are real unless the individual being exposed to them can comprehend their nature and understand that they're made-up.

 

[Randomuser3412]

We're not ready to talk about the ramifications of what Noelle says in the Weird Route.

 

[RinneItachi]

We're not ready to talk about the ramifications of what Noelle says in the Weird Route.

What in specific she says quite a lot.

 

[RinneItachi]

Btw if you

Spoiler: Weird Route

abort the Weird Route and then try to make Kris and Noelle ride the Ferris Wheel, she says she won't "listen to you anymore".

 

[Randomuser3412]

What in specific she says quite a lot.

I feel as if Noelle is somewhat implying that the world of Deltarune is extremely limited and only specific events are feasible to take place. Why this is I'm not sure right now, but I can speculate it could be because Gaster created this world to have very specific boundaries on what is allowed to happen (where characters go, how they act, what they do, etc)

 

[RinneItachi]

I can't believe all the DR fans in the community calling the chapter objectively bad outright because we didn't get 10 flashbacks of Dess and the Knight and 3 Friend boss fight encounters and 10 Gaster references.

There are legit criticisms to be made, I've made a couple, but it feels like a big chunk of the fanbase is legit just whining because they had misinterpreted what the chapter would be like. I did too but I still loved it.

I don't think it was perfect, but calling it bad is just silly.

 

[Edutyn]

What

 

[Randomuser3412]

People have gaslit themselves into thinking that FRIEND will be important

 

[RinneItachi]

I feel as if Noelle is somewhat implying that the world of Deltarune is extremely limited and only specific events are feasible to take place. Why this is I'm not sure right now, but I can speculate it could be because Gaster created this world to have very specific boundaries on what is allowed to happen (where characters go, how they act, what they do, etc)

Spoiler: WR Ch. 5

I agree yeah.

Noelle's entire character gimmick outside of the romance stuff is that she is someone who is forced to fit the mold when in reality she has completely different instincts beyond her "intended" design. Which is why in playing games she was always great at finding game-breaking bugs. Exploiting that quality of hers, we the Player slowly shift her into completely abandoning her identity and seeking "power", in this case, that power is freedom.

I can understand some people's interpretations that Kris and Noelle died, in this case, Noelle achieving freedom through death, but I actually have a rather specific counterargument to this idea; When we're going across the lake, we need to quickly press Proceed otherwise we fail, these words have legitimate power because of the influence of our soul, and ultimately I believe that in reaching a static VHS player screen, we have literally broken out of the game's boundaries as they were defined by Gaster, we're not meant to cross the lake. And I think us failing is representative of us failing to break that boundary, and being "reset" back to normal.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Honestly, the Weird Route dialogue is a point of no return for the story. It basically completely recontextualizes it for me.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

What

Oh yeah, was wondering what would happen

 

[RinneItachi]

Honestly, the Weird Route dialogue is a point of no return for the story. It basically completely recontextualizes it for me.

Absolutely, and

Spoiler: WR Ch. 5

While I understood it was obviously a different route, I didn't realize how much it's going to change. It literally just nullifies all of Chapter 5, and likely will to 6 as well, only being relevant to a flipped side of Chapter 7.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Absolutely, and

Spoiler: WR Ch. 5

While I understood it was obviously a different route, I didn't realize how much it's going to change. It literally just nullifies all of Chapter 5, and likely will to 6 as well, only being relevant to a flipped side of Chapter 7.

Yep. It seems like we were slowly gaining more and more control over Kris in the Weird Route, and, by Chapter 5, we've completely taken over Kris and they're unable to remove the SOUL anymore. No soulless Kris, no more non-Knight fountains.

 

[Edutyn]

best i could get from Flowery speed was mach 37

 

[RinneItachi]

Spoiler: Meme

 

[RinneItachi]

Btw are we gonna use that new ability the Knight showed, the bubble thing? I haven't seen anyone mention it.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbh I think Kris actually died in the lake in the weird route, either literally or mentally. The way the outline of the dialogue box changes from white to red at the end on top of how quickly you’re able to spam proceed makes me think Kris is just gone now. Either we’ll continue on using Kris as a simple vessel, or we’ll completely discard Kris and move to either Noelle or our original vessel instead (depending on whether or not Noelle survived).

 

[Randomuser3412]

Spoiler: Meme

"I'll parade [the Knight's] body around town and they'll finally believe me!"

Loses in 2 seconds flat without putting up any sort of fight and gets dragged to the Shelter

 

[Da3ggman]

Ngl I wanna go back and beat the secret boss Pink but I deadass hate the bomb attack and length of the fight so much that it's actively pushing me away from even loading the chapter back up.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Ngl I wanna go back and beat the secret boss Pink but I deadass hate the bomb attack and length of the fight so much that it's actively pushing me away from even loading the chapter back up.

Dude, that fight left me so jaded it almost ruined the rest of the chapter for me

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Ngl I wanna go back and beat the secret boss Pink but I deadass hate the bomb attack and length of the fight so much that it's actively pushing me away from even loading the chapter back up.

At least the concert attack right after it does give us decent opportunity to heal with the hearts, but yeah those bombs are genuinely as difficult as the Pre-Nerf Sword Tunnel.

 

[RinneItachi]

Ngl I wanna go back and beat the secret boss Pink but I deadass hate the bomb attack and length of the fight so much that it's actively pushing me away from even loading the chapter back up.

Advice: Learn how to modify save files or something bro idfk

 

[AcidSilver]

The fake stats argument really highlights a big problem with scaling anything that happens in Dark Worlds which is that sometimes things just work based off of vibes. Why is a character capable of doing this specific feat? Is it because they're just that powerful or is it just because of vibes? Is Pink actually Ultra Deltaversal because she can mess with the battle area so much? No, it's just because it's funny and makes the fight more interesting.

You might as well be trying to powerscale actual dreams which is an apt comparison considering the dream like nature of Dark Worlds.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

At least the concert attack right after it does give us decent opportunity to heal with the hearts, but yeah those bombs are genuinely as difficult as the Pre-Nerf Sword Tunnel.

I’ve always hated how Deltarune nerfs fights in patches because they’re almost always not that bad and feel like they’re just babying the playerbase (even the Sword Tunnel wasn’t that bad and just didn’t convey its hitbox properly), however Maddie’s regular bombs are genuinely unfair and I really hope they get nerfed.

 

[Randomuser3412]

You might as well be trying to powerscale actual dreams which is an apt comparison considering the dream like nature of Dark Worlds.

Yeah. Why would we ever do something like that?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Media Literacy, the game:

If the topic of "let's index Flowery fake stats as legitimate" is brought up again, I'm going to lose my mind.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The fake stats argument really highlights a big problem with scaling anything that happens in Dark Worlds which is that sometimes things just work based off of vibes. Why is a character capable of doing this specific feat? Is it because they're just that powerful or is it just because of vibes? Is Pink actually Ultra Deltaversal because she can mess with the battle area so much? No, it's just because it's funny and makes the fight more interesting.

You might as well be trying to powerscale actual dreams which is an apt comparison considering the dream like nature of Dark Worlds.

Careful, you'll be met by the worst possible example with other series that have other kind of evidence, even though Deltarune doesn't fit any criteria. The entire scaling of the series is built around that.

I'm completely vindicated, the DW are just a fantasy and illusion, you DON'T need to produce or sustain an accurate amount of energy to create a DW, and yet we still scale characters like they do. But if I try to make a CRT to remove that, take a wild guess what will happen.

 

[Randomuser3412]

He he he funny splat.mp3 game

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Media Literacy, the game:

If the topic of "let's index Flowery fake stats as legitimate" is brought up again, I'm going to lose my mind.

So why is Flowery surprised when his fake statistics have no effect on the Knight? Why does the Knight have to intentionally cut off the bottom of the 9s to turn them into 0s? What would happen if Flowery used them against someone who couldn’t ignore the fake statistics?

I think I might’ve accidentally phrased that paragraph a bit aggressively, but I’m asking genuinely here. I’d like to know how you see that scene.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Careful, you'll be met by the worst possible example with other series that have other kind of evidence, even though Deltarune doesn't fit any criteria. The entire scaling of the series is built around that.

I'm completely vindicated, the DW are just a fantasy and illusion, you DON'T need to produce or sustain an accurate amount of energy to create a DW, and yet we still scale characters like they do. But if I try to make a CRT to remove that, take a wild guess what will happen.

Vibes are equal to power
Power are equal to vibes

Besicaly 1A arguments for everyone is here.