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Deltarune: Chapter 5 (SPOILER!!) Discussion Thread

Zabazab said:
We already know why. It's because 9 is the highest, most powerful number. Nothing is bigger than 999• so when your stats are at that level, you can't be hurt anymore. Chara is said to be the kind of person who filled a glass of water all the way to the brim because "it was the most optimal way" to fill it.
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Yeah but also the fact (i think) thier fear of 0 since by adding 1 you lose everything
 
GodlyCharmander said:
???

Your interpretation that the fake statistics are valid would also make this a contradiction. The knight did get damaged, your side also agrees with that. The 0s are not "anything", that's not the claim. The 0s are just the knight undoing the illusion, the actual damage is not shown on screen in any way.
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No. Under my interpretation, the Knight ends the interaction completely undamaged.
  • Me interpretation: Flowery initially does deal damage (the "999s"), which is why the Knight starts glitching out. But alas the Knight sees through it and cuts the fake stats, retroactively invalidating the damage Flowery dealt. As in he ends up dealing no damage. That’s what the "000s" represent.
  • Your interpretation: Flowery is using his real stats to damage the Knight, while simply masking it with fake “999s.” The Knight sees through the fake display and continues the fight regardless. The "000s" are then just a visual indicator of the Knight ignoring the illusion.
The main difference is that I read the "000s" as an actual indication of Flowery's damage, whereas you seem to treat them as the Knight simply disregarding the display numbers entirely. May I ask then If that’s the case, why even display "000" specifically?

And also, why was Flowery so surprised when the Knight swung again? If it was purely for show and they weren’t actually feeling any major pain, then the 999s shouldn’t have affected their willingness to fight at all. If anything the fact they weren't hurt as bad as the display shows would make LITERALLY everyone "Ignore [His] fake statistics."
So why the surprise?
 
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Like imagine how stupid it would be if Gamma 2 used his comic effect display powers to display a "999" every time he punched Piccolo here, and was then SURPRISED when it didn't affect Piccolo at all. So much so he says, "Woah, you can ignore my display powers?" as IF LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO THE SAME.
dragon-ball-super-super-hero-orange-piccolo.gif
 
The sun's definitely not real, but i wonder if the fox being able to shapeshift into a mini sun would be a feat...

Side note, using the same method as the Cyber World calc, wouldn't this Dark World be much larger? It has a whole ocean and mountain, so much more mass
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
retroactively invalidating the damage Flowery dealt
Click to expand...
Your interpretation makes the knight heals themselves. Because in it, the damage was legit, and it already happened. That's not how fake stats work.


Eden_Warlock99 said:
The main difference is that I read the "000s" as an actual indication of Flowery's damage, whereas you seem to treat them as the Knight simply disregarding the display numbers entirely. May I ask then If that’s the case, why even display "000" specifically?
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Visual storytelling.


Eden_Warlock99 said:
And also, why was Flowery so surprised when the Knight swung again? If it was purely for show and they weren’t actually feeling any major pain, then the 999s shouldn’t have affected their willingness to fight at all
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Flowey has anywhere between 45-50 ATK, his attacks should do some damage, and his fake stats should've misled the Knight. Also, he says there's way more where that came from and starts fighting without the fake stats anyway. He is surprised the Knight can undo his illusions.

Plus, I'm not denying the fake statistics have effects, I'm denying the displayed numbers are accurate.
 
AyOgUyS said:
I don't see why it wouldn't just be Shapeshifting + Size Manipulation
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I think he's interpreting it as an actual sun and thus would need to sustain its form?


ShockingPsychic said:
Side note, using the same method as the Cyber World calc, wouldn't this Dark World be much larger? It has a whole ocean and mountain, so much more mass
Click to expand...

The whole scenario is fake. You can use the sun (which is behind the mountains) to calculate the size, it's not that big.

You can do the same with the castle which is meant to look big.
 
I would assume the fox's sun form still has mass and stuff, since the statue fox earlier did indeed copy the weight and dimensions of its new form. So I think you'd be able to get GPE from that
 
Oh wow this is really the Charmander was right all along chapter, huh?




Literally nothing wrong with Berdly's arm, all that's keeping it fried is his belief, it's literally a placebo effect.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Oh wow this is really the Charmander was right all along chapter, huh?




Literally nothing wrong with Berdly's arm, all that's keeping it fried is his belief, it's literally a placebo effect.
Click to expand...

That the aborted route ? Them of course he would live since fate stuff lol

I literally keep putting here but no- one is actually seeing it
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Oh wow this is really the Charmander was right all along chapter, huh?




Literally nothing wrong with Berdly's arm, all that's keeping it fried is his belief, it's literally a placebo effect.
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... that's not what's said tho? It is said the doctors can't FIND anything wrong with it... clearly there is something wrong as he LITERALLY can't move it

Also... as far as he knows, it was all a dream that he DOESN'T believe is real... aka, your conclusion makes like... actually... where did you get that it is simply a "Placebo effect" anyway?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Your interpretation makes the knight heals themselves. Because in it, the damage was legit, and it already happened. That's not how fake stats work.
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Kinda, I think of it more in that facing the fakeness of his damage makes it null. Like for example, recall the Persona gun example (I know you don't like whataboutisms, but please look at it more like an analogy so you can understand my point of view better) if any of Joker's opponents realized the gun was a toy, all damage inflicted by it would disappear cause it never should've inflicted any damage in the first place.
GodlyCharmander said:
Visual storytelling.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't you say rule of cool? Like the Knight cutting the 9s into 0s is pretty cool.

It would be real weird Visual Storytelling if we're supposed to not take the visuals as fact, but as an indication of the Knight ignoring one of Flowery's purely for show abilities. Especially given it's treated as a big thing the Knight can do.
GodlyCharmander said:
Plus, I'm not denying the fake statistics have effects, I'm denying the displayed numbers are accurate
Click to expand...
I'm confused about this, have an effect how? If they're really just for show, then the display number should be their only effect. If the Knight is actually feeling pain equivalent to 999 damage from them or anything of that style then they aren't really "fake" by your definition, right?
 
Soo To match the Sun’s total brightness, you would need:

42 quadrillion BR30 bulbs (That’s 42,000,000,000,000,000 bulbs)

1.7 quadrillion High Bay 150W lights (A better pick, but still absurd)

7.14 quadrillion 2x4 LED panels
 
Omegabronic said:
... that's not what's said tho? It is said the doctors can't FIND anything wrong with it... clearly there is something wrong as he LITERALLY can't move it

Also... as far as he knows, it was all a dream that he DOESN'T believe is real... aka, your conclusion makes like... actually... where did you get that it is simply a "Placebo effect" anyway?
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That why i keep saying it both mind and soul stuff but nothing get in the head of these guys
 
Omegabronic said:
... that's not what's said tho? It is said the doctors can't FIND anything wrong with it... clearly there is something wrong as he LITERALLY can't move it

Also... as far as he knows, it was all a dream that he DOESN'T believe is real... aka, your conclusion makes like... actually... where did you get that it is simply a "Placebo effect" anyway?
Click to expand...

The way this happened was a simple electric shock, which would be easily findable by any doctor ok the planet. But if they searched and his nerves, tissue, etc, are intact, then, the cause of his injury must not be real electric shocks.

It's a placebo effect because he experienced the "dream"/"illusion" of getting his wing fried, and the immersion made a permanent scar on his mind. That's how the DW work, Chapter 5 literally validated my whole CRT, but noooo...
 
GodlyCharmander said:
The way this happened was a simple electric shock, which would be easily findable by any doctor ok the planet. But if they searched and his nerves, tissue, etc, are intact, then, the cause of his injury must not be real electric shocks.

It's a placebo effect because he experienced the "dream"/"illusion" of getting his wing fried, and the immersion made a permanent scar on his mind. That's how the DW work, Chapter 5 literally validated my whole CRT, but noooo...
Click to expand...
A literally doctor knows what is a placeboo is and if they said They dont know that means it isnt a ******* placeboo effect...
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
I'm confused about this, have an effect how? If they're really just for show, then the display number should be their only effect
Click to expand...
If I fill up a container with 5 liters of water, and announce it as 20 L, you could say the 20 L were just for show. If someone called me out, that wouldn't make the 5 L disappear.

That's basically the analogy. There is no animation of the Knight healing, and the damage was already transferred. But clearly, as demonstrated, the 999s aren't real. Toby has consistent portraying healing with animation, he would communicate it in some way if it was the case. It means it was presented as 999, but it was lower. The 000s are, as you said, the rule of cool/visual storytelling.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
If I fill up a container with 5 liters of water, and announce it as 20 L, you could say the 20 L were just for show. If someone called me out, that wouldn't make the 5 L disappear.

That's basically the analogy. There is no animation of the Knight healing, and the damage was already transferred. But clearly, as demonstrated, the 999s aren't real. Toby has consistent portraying healing with animation, he would communicate it in some way if it was the case. It means it was presented as 999, but it was lower. The 000s are, as you said, the rule of cool/visual storytelling.
Click to expand...
Or they did the damage and the knight refused to accept the fake damage
 
I can finally type a long thing

I agree with Charmander's take on the fake stats thing. Like I said before, it's like Flowery is using a fake ID. The Knight simply noticed the fake ID and ignored it.

I think I disagree with Charmander on some things regarding Dark Worlds, but that's not super relevant right now.

Those weird KE calcs need to go. There is simply no way Tenna clapping his hands is 8-A. This is abusing the KE feat guidelines (and treating a cartoonish lightning bolt as real lightning with real lightning speed...)

Not sure if the verse page is up to date, but that makes the next viable calc Tenna's 8-C heat feat.

Setting aside "do they scale to Dark World sizes" for a second, I think the fox's feat of shapeshifting into a mini sun is viable. Using a number from earlier in the thread, this would be a High 7-C feat, which seems like a good ballpark to be in.

Honestly I wanna go back to that Mizzle feat where she makes a rainstorm but that's not even on the verse page lol

So uhhh

Fake stats are fake
Sun is not a real sun
Sun is still a darkner shapeshifted into a (tiny) sun
 
ShockingPsychic said:
I can finally type a long thing

I agree with Charmander's take on the fake stats thing. Like I said before, it's like Flowery is using a fake ID. The Knight simply noticed the fake ID and ignored it.

I think I disagree with Charmander on some things regarding Dark Worlds, but that's not super relevant right now.
Click to expand...

Mind you, my point is: Dark Worlds rely on dreams and fantasy for everything, so there isn't a need for magic to be realistic.

And NOT

Dark Worlds are meaningless and the cast is 10-B
 
Anyway it placeboo effect that ******* should affect the soul and min
Charmander is correct about this but what he not correct is ignoring the fact the doutor dont know

ShockingPsychic said:
I can finally type a long thing

I agree with Charmander's take on the fake stats thing. Like I said before, it's like Flowery is using a fake ID. The Knight simply noticed the fake ID and ignored it.

I think I disagree with Charmander on some things regarding Dark Worlds, but that's not super relevant right now.

Those weird KE calcs need to go. There is simply no way Tenna clapping his hands is 8-A. This is abusing the KE feat guidelines (and treating a cartoonish lightning bolt as real lightning with real lightning speed...)

Not sure if the verse page is up to date, but that makes the next viable calc Tenna's 8-C heat feat.

Setting aside "do they scale to Dark World sizes" for a second, I think the fox's feat of shapeshifting into a mini sun is viable. Using a number from earlier in the thread, this would be a High 7-C feat, which seems like a good ballpark to be in.

Honestly I wanna go back to that Mizzle feat where she makes a rainstorm but that's not even on the verse page lol

So uhhh

Fake stats are fake
Sun is not a real sun
Sun is still a darkner shapeshifted into a (tiny) sun
Click to expand...
You could have calc using what i said earlier
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Mind you, my point is: Dark Worlds rely on dreams and fantasy for everything, so there isn't a need for magic to be realistic.

And NOT

Dark Worlds are meaningless and the cast is 10-B
Click to expand...
Yeah, I agree here. I do still wanna say that an explosion could be treated as a normal explosion and such, but I agree that lightning and stuff doesn't have to act realistically.

I don't think I've seen anyone argue for total Dark World annihilation, but there's too much there suggesting the Dark Worlds are at least somewhat physical. Berdly's arm recently became iffy, but there's still the eggs, shadow crystals, and black shards. We also see Asgore in his Dark World form IN the Light World, so... maybe that means something.

Hopefully we could pull an Omori Dream World in the case of total Dark World annihilation...

It would appear a worst case scenario (All KE feats removed, no Dark World size scaling) would be High 8-C for Ch1-3 (Tenna and like five supporting calcs) and 8-A (Titan PE) for Ch4

And the fox feat is only a relatively small jump from that. So that's what I'm personally super interested in looking at

Found that Mizzle calc btw
 
Personally I do see the damage that Flowery did to the Knight to have been real even if the stats were fake. Flowery acts like the Knight should’ve been hurt by it and the Knight does that glitching effect it does when you’ve dealt enough damage in Chapter 3.

It’s just that because Flowery’s stats are fake that the Knight can just go “no” to the damage they take from him since the Knight is also aware of the meta aspects of the battle system. If Flowery actually had max stats then the Knight might not have been able to do the same thing.
 
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