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Lord of Sunlight goes from Tier 4 to tier 2 (DARK SOULS)

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Comiphorous

Comiphorous

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I was originally going to revamp all three great lord pages but decided it'd be better to get mod opinions on the scaling/new abilities of Gwyn first before i waste my time trying to get that on multiple pages in one CRT.

New page;

Old page;

Changes; (These will just list the changes on the profile, not the full justifications, as those are on the new page itself)
  • Upgraded from Tier 4 to tier 2, possibly Low 1-C
  • General clean up to the entire page
  • Added immortality negation due to using his miracles to kill the immortal everlasting dragons.
  • Added clearer justifications and references to all his abilities
  • Rapport was not a thing in DS1, and was introduced in DS3 (DS1 has undead report, which wouldn't have worked on Gwyn anyways since he's not undead) so i fixed the resistance to it by scaling his resistance to his son who does in fact resist regular Rapport.
  • Removed resistance to ice manipulation, darkness manipulation, soul manipulation. idk why he has it lol and the current page doesn't justify it.
  • Changed his intelligence to unknown due to the First Flame deteriorating Gwyn's body and mind and it's unclear how 'together' his mind really is after all this time. Also fixed his intelligence section... completely lacking an actual rating for some reason???
As you might've noticed, and i mentioned above, this upgrades everyone who has linked the first flame to Low 2-C (since they're more or less all scaling to Gwyn). Which means the following pages would be changed by this CRT;
Just to note, some of these mfs definitely got questionable ass pages and some of these need to get nuked off the site. but that's my opinion. i'm just here to do small janitor work atp.
Chosen Undead
Bearer of the Curse
Ashen One
Gravelord Nito
Bed of Chaos
Soul of Cinder
The Abyss Watchers (wtf is that Low 4-C rating??? ig that'd be replaced with an at most Low 2-C rating)
Yhorm the Giant
Aldrich, Devourer of Gods
Ludleth of Courland
Lothric and Lorian
Solaire of Astora
Big Hat Logan
Witch Beatrice
Anri of Astora
Orbeck of Vinheim
Sirris of the Sunless Realms
Siegward of Catarina
Sister Friede
Slave Knight Gael
Father Ariandel
Father of the Abyss
Seath the Scaleless

Characters who currently aren't rated as 4-C but should scale anyways;
Darkeater Midir (Ashen One fights him like 5 minutes before they fight Gael. Fairly straight forward.)

Also, can we please rename this guy's page to "Gwyn, Lord of Cinder"? That's the name he goes by in game. Great Lord Gwyn is more like a title he's occasionally referred to by, and even then just "Lord Gwyn" is more common than what his page is currently called.

Agree: Rex_Eckles, PatatesR

Disagree: Mr. Bambu, TauanVictor, RaikiKurohane99

Neutral: Crabwhale (On Low 2-C), Mbpoops
 
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Why isn't Darkeater Midir scaling to this? You fight him twice and he gets an entire power-up halfway through his boss fight against you like five minutes before you fight Gael not to mention the chick who you get the quest to kill him from is under the impression that she needs help to kill him yet also thinks she can solo you despite knowing you just helped put down Midir and basically ended the world from her PoV. He's also an Ancient Dragon that has been feeding on the Abyss for longer than literally every other entity in existence, including Manus.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Why isn't Darkeater Midir scaling to this? You fight him twice and he gets an entire power-up halfway through his boss fight against you like five minutes before you fight Gael not to mention the chick who you get the quest to kill him from is under the impression that she needs help to kill him yet also thinks she can solo you despite knowing you just helped put down Midir and basically ended the world from her PoV. He's also an Ancient Dragon that has been feeding on the Abyss for longer than literally every other entity in existence, including Manus.
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Buns profiles i guess. He currently scales to Low 6-B for some odd reason lmao. Actually most of the everlasting dragons profiles scale to Low 6-B for some odd reason despite their whole schtick.
 
Comiphorous said:
Buns profiles i guess. He currently scales to Low 6-B for some odd reason lmao. Actually most of the everlasting dragons profiles scale to Low 6-B for some odd reason.
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They're scaling to the bell in Archdragon Peak that makes that storm before you fight the Nameless King. Midir arguably has the most straightforward scaling of any Dragon in the verse due purely to feats. He literally survives a lethal blow from the strongest version of the Ashen One in existence, falls off of a bridge into a deep cavern and then gets back up only to fight that much harder and gets stronger doing it.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
They're scaling to the bell in Archdragon Peak that makes that storm before you fight the Nameless King. Midir arguably has the most straightforward scaling of any Dragon in the verse due purely to feats. He literally survives a lethal blow from the strongest version of the Ashen One in existence, falls off of a bridge into a deep cavern and then gets back up only to fight that much harder and gets stronger doing it.
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I'll add Midir to the OP, poor guy has been a dozen tiers below where he should be for a while with nobody questioning it.
 
I don't know much about DS3 but isn't the dark nerfing Midir?

Also none of those are everlasting dragons, just descendants with Midir being the closest to them hence why he was put in charge of eating the dark soul(s)
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
I don't know much about DS3 but isn't the dark nerfing Midir?

Also none of those are everlasting dragons, just descendants with Midir being the closest to them hence why he was put in charge of eating the dark soul(s)
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No. It actually explicitly makes him stronger considering it buffed his fire to the point of turning it into Shin Godzilla's Photon Ray, gave him a boost to his power output whenever he sucks in a bunch of it just like Artorias could do back in DS1 and the only downside its actually causing him is the fact that after god knows how many millenia his mind is finally starting to fall apart due to its corruption like with Artorias.
 
Low 2-C is definitely okay in my book, not too sure about the transcendental stuff. You sure that's not in the context of something more spiritual rather than higher spatial dimensions?

I'm willing to hear out counterarguments.
 
Rex_Eckles said:
Low 2-C is definitely okay in my book, not too sure about the transcendental stuff. You sure that's not in the context of something more spiritual rather than higher spatial dimensions?

I'm willing to hear out counterarguments.
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Considering how direct the wording is, I don't see how it could be something other than than the dragons literally existing in a higher plane of existence, and the apostles praying to the dragons to join them in this higher existence to be immortal like them.
 
Comiphorous said:
Considering how direct the wording is, I don't see how it could be something other than than the dragons literally existing in a higher plane of existence, and the apostles praying to the dragons to join them in this higher existence to be immortal like them.
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Well there's your answer, being immortal transcends life as it transcends the vulnerabilities fo being alive.
 
Rex_Eckles said:
Well there's your answer, being immortal transcends life as it transcends the vulnerabilities fo being alive.
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While true, it says another plane of existence which transcends life. It’s not them just being immortal, it’s them existing somewhere that transcends life.

This also makes sense if we consider dragons existing before life and death even existed, since the first flame introduced said concepts to the world at the start of the age of fire. They existed prior to those things even being an idea.
 
Comiphorous said:
While true, it says another plane of existence which transcends life. It’s not them just being immortal, it’s them existing somewhere that transcends life.

This also makes sense if we consider dragons existing before life and death even existed, since the first flame introduced said concepts to the world at the start of the age of fire.
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Hm, interesting. That does make sense. I'm still not entirely sure, though.
 
I love dark souls wank GIVE ME MY 1-A BLOODBORNE but ima be neutral on this for now the first flame stuff could be like anywhere from 4-A to low 2-C
 
Eh. Hell with it. I'll have a small rant, as a treat. I've been good.

I've argued against these exact horrific arguments for years. I have done so, I think, since I really properly joined the wiki. That's 8 years now. I did much the same with DOOM. And now, much like DOOM, I am tired. I am tired of being the one holding Pandora's box shut.

When I spoke with Ultima, despite what our pages said, he was of the opinion that merely allowing time to progress was "significantly affecting it". Nevermind that in some way, change and, indeed, time existed before, nevermind Dark Souls deliberately obtuse method of presenting information, nevermind the obvious implications and absurdities of even just Low 2-C Dark Souls. We have a small collection of insanely vague statements and the wiki will have its new toy.

My end opinion is that, of these statements, I can say that most are being taken at face value when I find reasons to actively not do so. Even that aside, Dark Souls as a verse makes pretty active efforts to dissuade this from happening, one feels. The lore is intentionally obfuscated. Changing the verse to Tier 2 based on a metaphor ("light is time") doesn't sit right with me. I do not expect it to change anything, but. Nevertheless. I am voting against this.

I do not intend to debate this. At all. I have debated it every time it has come up, for eight years. I have grown jaded at the Dark Souls community. I find myself unwilling to expend the time and energy to go through a ten-page debate. I expect this to succeed, because I will not step in. I accept that beforehand.

Cheers and godspeed or what have you.
 
References aren't a replacement for scans, they just support them. You should actually add scans to the profile.

For the rest, while I don't really have an opinion on Tier 2 the Tier 1 stuff is extremely vague and definitely not worth tiering.
 
Since the tier 1 stuff has been pretty disagreed on (plus i missed that he can't scale there based off the rules anyways) I have removed it from the OP. So that leaves the tier 2 stuff.
 
The profile needs scans, not just references. Also, some of these references are too broad. Such as one simply saying "Dark Souls".

I disagree with Tier 2 personally, it is too broad and sounds too metaphorical for my taste. The only evidence to claim this is one single statement of "Light is Time" (which itself is heavily metaphorical given it neither explains why Light is Time, nor how Light operates).
 
I'll probably get back to this sooner rather than later. Dark Souls as a whole verse on this wiki sits damn near shoulder to shoulder with Demon's Souls for outdated content on this wiki, so by principal I'm very much against singular changes like this with such wide reaching impacts. Not to say the change is bad per say, just there's a mixture of timing and lack of support for the verse already to where I don't think its a good idea to shoot top tiers up to tier 2 just yet. There's a lot that needs to be considered from all three games for something like this.

That being said, I'll get back to you all on the content of this sooner rather than later.
 
Armorchompy said:
Oh yeah, is there a reason why you removed the key split?
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Version of the character we only hear about from people hundreds of years after he already lost his marbles. We essentially know nothing about him in that version beyond non-combat related activities he was up to before he linked the flame. (Besides killing the dragons, which he already scales to in his lord of cinder key anyways) I can add it back but it’s basically just be the same as it is now. Stat wise he’d be the exact same.

I’m not home right now (watched supergirl) I’ll be back to respond in a few hours.
 
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In my opinion, the tier 2 interpretation is consistent. The item descriptions in DS3 clearly equate Light with Time; we know that Light first appeared with the First Flame. I think this is sufficient on its own, but if we continue to discuss and interpret the universe, it becomes quite clear that describing the ancient era as “gray” and “undistinguished” is an attempt to convey its timeless, unchanging nature. As mentioned in the opening, the flame brings change. I believe it introduced time into a world that was previously timeless and unchanging.
 
Comiphorous said:
Version of the character we only hear about from people hundreds of years after he already lost his marbles. We essentially know nothing about him in that version beyond non-combat related activities he was up to before he linked the flame. (Besides killing the dragons, which he already scales to in his lord of cinder key anyways) I can add it back but it’s basically just be the same as it is now. Stat wise he’d be the exact same.

I’m not home right now (watched supergirl) I’ll be back to respond in a few hours.
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I mean he upscales even if it's the same values and he has some decent int feats which is a far cry from just being a mindless husk. He also just like... doesn't even use his miracles as Lord of Cinder.
 
Chritin said:
I'll probably get back to this sooner rather than later. Dark Souls as a whole verse on this wiki sits damn near shoulder to shoulder with Demon's Souls for outdated content on this wiki, so by principal I'm very much against singular changes like this with such wide reaching impacts. Not to say the change is bad per say, just there's a mixture of timing and lack of support for the verse already to where I don't think its a good idea to shoot top tiers up to tier 2 just yet. There's a lot that needs to be considered from all three games for something like this.

That being said, I'll get back to you all on the content of this sooner rather than later.
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There hasn’t been any notable revisions to this verse in years. Are we waiting for the heat death of the universe before we finally do something with it? Why are we willingly keeping the pages like this for years because of "bad timing" when no one is willing to do anything with the verse?

Atp, if we wanna say no to CRTs because the changes are too big and lacking support for the verse, just have the entire verse nuked off the site, and remake the pages from the ground up.
 
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RaikiKurohane99 said:
I disagree with Tier 2 personally, it is too broad and sounds too metaphorical for my taste. The only evidence to claim this is one single statement of "Light is Time" (which itself is heavily metaphorical given it neither explains why Light is Time, nor how Light operates).
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I did some more digging through spells and items that related to light to see if this really was just a one-off statement, to see if perhaps i was wrong. Not only did i find more, I found more proof that light is not meant to be metaphorical, but a law of the universe. Dark Souls II says this about Repair;

A sorcery that dates farther back than recollection.

Repairs equipped weapons and armor. Uses light to repair damaged weapons and armor. Supposedly this sorcery restores items to a past state, but with the knowledge of this art lost, the finer details of the phenomenon are unknown.
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This isn't only Dark Souls 3, but Light is stated to reverse items to past states, not just basic repairing.

In Dark Souls III, Twisted Wall of Light says this;

Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. Distorts light in order to deflect magic. A closely-guarded light manipulation spell that contorts the very fabric of fundamental laws, negating magic by denying its claim to physicality.
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Not only is light compared to time, it is something that controls the fundamental laws of the universe. It's very clear that "Light" is not just normal light and is more than just a metaphor. It's something that can control the very laws of the universe.
 
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Armorchompy said:
I mean he upscales even if it's the same values and he has some decent int feats which is a far cry from just being a mindless husk. He also just like... doesn't even use his miracles as Lord of Cinder.
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I'm like 99% sure that's PIS. Miracles don't require any sort of equipment to use (at least for gods such as Gwyn), and are literally just based on faith (and a talisman if you're human) so it really shouldn't be an issue for him to use.

And i know this sounds wonky for proof due to their status in the series, but his miracles seem to be intended to be a part of his moveset considering we see Gwyn using them in phase 2 of the Soul of Cinder fight in Dark Souls III. If he lost the ability to use the miracles prior to/when becoming the Lord of Cinder, the Soul of Cinder should never had access to said miracles either, since Gwyn only passed down his miracles to his children, who none of which are lords of cinder.
 
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Comiphorous said:
I'm like 99% sure that's PIS. Miracles don't require any sort of equipment to use (at least for gods such as Gwyn), and are literally just based on faith (and a talisman if you're human) so it really shouldn't be an issue for him to use.
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He's a mindless husk, having the ability to use it doesn't mean much if he literally never thinks about it.
Comiphorous said:
And i know this sounds wonky for proof due to their status in the series, but his miracles seem to be intended to be a part of his moveset considering we see Gwyn using them in phase 2 of the Soul of Cinder fight in Dark Souls III. If he lost the ability to use the miracles prior to/when becoming the Lord of Cinder, the Soul of Cinder should never had access to said miracles either, since Gwyn only passed down his miracles to his children, who none of which are lords of cinder.
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The Soul of Cinder isn't just the same as Gwyn, obviously it's using his soul and powers but there's a different intellect at the wheel.

Either way peak Gwyn still just has actual intellect and higher stats, I consider that reason enough for a key split.
 
Armorchompy said:
He's a mindless husk, having the ability to use it doesn't mean much if he literally never thinks about it.

The Soul of Cinder isn't just the same as Gwyn, obviously it's using his soul and powers but there's a different intellect at the wheel.

Either way peak Gwyn still just has actual intellect and higher stats, I consider that reason enough for a key split.
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Was under the impression you meant he literally did not have the abilities at all in his lord of cinder key, my mistake.

I have re-included his lord of sunlight key with (hopefully) most of his most notable intelligence feats. (Old page doesn't really justify his intelligence nor rates it at all for that matter, so working with crumbs here)
 
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