Adding Underwater Mobility to Free Movement

[Detective_Blizzard]

Howdy folks, got permission from Bambu for this one.

Honestly, the title says it all and it's a rather basic concept, characters being able to move underwater unimpeded is a rather common ability/concept and we don't have a classification for it rn. So this CRT just aims to add the ability as an option for Free Movement since water is typically treated in fiction and real life as difficult terrain that needs more specific skill/ability to traverse easily for. The conversation is likely going to be more on what can actually qualify for this since the idea ranges from 'kinda good at swimming', 'literally a fish', 'explicitly faster in water', all the way to 'literally blitzing underwater creatures on their own field'. This is a skillset that ranges from the mundane to supernatural so converse away, to give a basic start I'll give some basic ideas on how someone might try to use this classifaction (Note: Me adding a example is not a sign of approval but instead to throw out starting ideas for how someone might treat the ability and better clarify on what should and shouldn't be allowed. I do not agree with every single example)

1. Vehicles being able to traverse underwater, if said vehicle is traditionally capable of doing so or not (Such as a submarine or a car capable of driving underwater)
2. Character being able to swim at superhuman levels of speed
3. Character being able to move at their normal speed, but doesn't suffer any effects of moving underwater due to a unique trait
4. Character gains speed instead of loses it for being underwater
5. A character using a different power to torpedo themselves through water
6. Literally a fish
7. Kinda good at swimming

Agree: @Tllmbrg, @FinePoint (Specifically for examples 1, 3, 4, and 6)
Disagree: @Antvasima, @Random-Helper323
Neutral:

 

[Random-Helper323]

This would have to be added to a lot of pages if included.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

bump

 

[FinePoint]

1. Character being able to move at their normal speed, but doesn't suffer any effects of moving underwater due to a unique trait
2. Character gains speed instead of loses it for being underwater
3. Literally a fish

I think these three should probably qualify, with a fish qualifying under the second thing. This application is already kind of covered by the following:

The user can also gain this power by swiftly moving through difficult terrain such as mud or deep snow without being hindered by them.

If they only swim fast because they also run fast, I don't think that counts, since that's just them being fast.
They should be noticeably unphased or buffed by the difficult terrain.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

If they only swim fast because they also run fast, I don't think that counts, since that's just them being fast.
They should be noticeably unphased or buffed by the difficult terrain.

Problem is a lot of fiction doesn't treat water like that and it's pretty common for water users to try and use water as a means of restricting movement regardless of the normal stats. Running fast and swimming fast are typically treated separately due to things like water pressure and resistance, resulting in characters who realistically should be capable of escaping easily resorting to other tactics to get out of water traps.

Plus I'd say a vehicle being able to traverse underwater could likely fall under the same description given it allows those using it the specific trait of moving swiftly though the water.

 

[FinePoint]

Problem is a lot of fiction doesn't treat water like that and it's pretty common for water users to try and use water as a means of restricting movement regardless of the normal stats. Running fast and swimming fast are typically treated separately due to things like water pressure and resistance, resulting in characters who realistically should be capable of escaping easily resorting to other tactics to get out of water traps.

Plus I'd say a vehicle being able to traverse underwater could likely fall under the same description given it allows those using it the specific trait of moving swiftly though the water.

Sure for the vehicle.

And idk, I also see a lot of fiction follow the more obvious if you have super-speed that includes swimming. I wouldn't know the exact ratios to make a judgement call on that, just that it makes more sense to me as its own ability if it's not purely run fast = swim fast, or that with a lack of evidence we'd assume someone can swim faster than normal if they also run faster than normal.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I wouldn't know the exact ratios to make a judgement call on that, just that it makes more sense to me as its own ability if it's not purely run fast = swim fast, or that with a lack of evidence we'd assume someone can swim faster than normal if they also run faster than normal.

Mayhaps a good default requirement to have the ability added is simply just to showcase it. Since while a fast character also being able to swim very fast could simply be assumed from their default superhuman speed, nothing can directly imply that they have say a level of free movement to effectively swim around with a high level of mobility.

Basically treating that form of Free Movement akin to a underwater acrobatics, where a characters skill in traversing underwater allows them to actually use the omni-directional space of the water more towards their advantages than what'd be assumed from a normal person swimming normally. Kinda like flying underwater

 

[Tllmbrg]

I obviously agree with this proposal, and I would even go as far as suggesting rolling Underground Mobility into this power.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this addition would change the current concept of Free Movement from its current definition to become borderline incoherent. My apologies, but this is a firm no from me.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I think that this addition would change the current concept of Free Movement from its current definition to become borderline incoherent. My apologies, but this is a firm no from me.

The suggestion for underwater movement or underground mobility?

 

[Antvasima]

Both. Free Movement is currently defined as the ability to walk or run on water, clouds, or similar. That seems too different from what you are suggesting, and would turn the power far too jumbled, incoherent, and hard to understand.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Both. Free Movement is currently defined as the ability to walk or run on water, clouds, or similar. That seems too different from what you are suggesting, and would turn the power far too jumbled, incoherent, and hard to understand.

The ability is also defined with

"traverse through hard terrain with ease"

"The user can also gain this power by swiftly moving through difficult terrain such as mud or deep snow without being hindered by them"

"or by manipulating the terrain itself to make going through it easier"

Quite honestly at least half, if not more so, of the page has nothing to do with the ability to run or walk on something. One of the examples, snow walking, acts entirely contradictory to this idea as  anyone can walk on snow however the requirement for it is to move through it without being impeded.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that moving through water and other liquids via running as if it was air and ground might qualify in that case, but definitely not merely swimming efficiently. It would break the theme too much, and I think that we likely have other powers covering that.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Well, I suppose that moving through water and other liquids via running as if it was air and ground might qualify in that case, but definitely not merely swimming efficiently. It would break the theme too much, and I think that we likely have other powers covering that.

We actually don't have any abilities associated with it, as far as I can tell. The closest ones to it would be Underwater Breathing or Underground Mobility, however neither work since the first is just being underwater and the other is literally what the power should be except explicitly underground.

The current power itself isn't that well defined by the idea and already has wording which can allow other means of moving through difficult terrain swiftly. At worst it'd just need some minor description changes

 

[Antvasima]

Underwater breathing combined with regular superhuman physiques cover being able to swim very swift. That is not what the theme of Free Movement seems to be about at all. I give a permanent extremely strong rejection to these suggestions, and am unfortunately far too overwhelmed with work to continue to argue back and forth here. My apologies.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Fair enough I suppose, you do have quite a bit to do.

However I do also ultimately disagree that just combining underwater breathing with general superhuman physicals is a good solution, since as the examples above showcase there are multiple ways where that simply doesn't work for since not every example of this is going to be moving supernaturally fast, strong, or breath underwater.

Additionally, the stipulation that it  needs to be through running/walking seems rather unusual since the same method can be accomplished through other methods like, as the power says itself, simple manipulation of the environment. (Also there'd functionally be no difference if a character accomplished moving across water with their feet or hands, making the seperation of it unusual)

 

[Antvasima]

At best swimming very fast can be its own ability, but attempting to mash it with this one would cause an ill-fitting mess, so I will still continue to reject this suggestion.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Again, that is fair, I just find it very weird to have this power be entirely exclusive to one's legs as opposed to accomplishing the same results with other body parts. We'll see how other staff feel and deal with the conclusion whenever that results. I'll mark you as a disagree when I have access to a computer

 

[Antvasima]

It is not restricted to legs, but it covers unnatural defiance of the laws of physics in terms of being able to move freely across anything without any resistance. Swimming is a perfectly natural real world-based movement, even when done extremely efficiently.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Which again the same arguments go back to mud/snow and all that but we are just going back into a loop and there's important work to be done. Some of the examples (most notably 3) still falls under that description and I think its best to wait and see at this point.

If it comes down to making an entirely new ability for this, I will be willing to make a page for it. This will be the end of my comments for this specific conversation

 

[Tllmbrg]

Both. Free Movement is currently defined as the ability to walk or run on water, clouds, or similar. That seems too different from what you are suggesting, and would turn the power far too jumbled, incoherent, and hard to understand.

No, not really.
I don't see how something called "Free Movement" letting someone freely move through water/the earth is at all confusing, in fact I think the various abilities being split is just unneeded bloat.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Vehicles being able to traverse underwater, if said vehicle is traditionally capable of doing so or not (Such as a submarine or a car capable of driving underwater)

If it's a car, like James Bond's submarine cars for example, we could arguably call that underwater breathing in a way. This one is at least interesting.

Character being able to swim at superhuman levels of speed

This would apply to literally any character with superhuman speed who can swim. I disagree here.

Character being able to move at their normal speed, but doesn't suffer any effects of moving underwater due to a unique trait

This would include characters who are just insanely heavy and can walk on the sea floor. A character that weighs as much as or more than stone and can survive underwater would qualify. This is a strange thing to call underwater mobility. I have to disagree here.

Character gains speed instead of loses it for being underwater

That describes a stat amp or a different speed level for swimming.

A character using a different power to torpedo themselves through water

This still sounds like speed. Such a power would typically work in air too, which is often noted.

The problem is firstly that there's nothing to prevent this ability being added to literally anyone that can swim or move through water in any way. Even a character that sinks would still get it for surviving and being able to walk underwater.

I'm open to changing my opinion, but at the moment I have to disagree with this. Being able to swim or otherwise move underwater is unbelievably common, with most creatures being able to do it, to the point where someone that can't usually gets that fact listed as a weakness.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

If it's a car, like James Bond's submarine cars for example, we could arguably call that underwater breathing in a way. This one is at least interesting.

We could but unless its specifically stated then it'd be difficult to say that theres an indefinite amount of oxygen in it. It likely would only classify as a limited version at best in that regard.

This would apply to literally any character with superhuman speed who can swim. I disagree here.

That describes a stat amp or a different speed level for swimming.

This still sounds like speed. Such a power would typically work in air too, which is often noted.

In terms of these, Free Movement is itself a sub-power of Superhuman Speed. Technically speaking any character moving at a high enough speed should be capable of running across water, but we only allow it to those that explicitly show it. Additionally, again with the snow/mud speed, any character CAN traverse them its just a matter of difficulty.

This would include characters who are just insanely heavy and can walk on the sea floor. A character that weighs as much as or more than stone and can survive underwater would qualify. This is a strange thing to call underwater mobility. I have to disagree here.

I was more-so referring to characters who have unique traits that just ignore the water resistance. Since even with your example the character is question would still need yo be combating the water pressure in order to walk around, making it more difficult than if they were above water

The problem is firstly that there's nothing to prevent this ability being added to literally anyone that can swim or move through water in any way.

As I mentioned earlier, a good way of preventing that is just having a hard requirement of a significant showcasing of it. A character just being able to swim normally is unlikely to be agreed by anyone however far more extreme examples or unique traits would allow it. The ability itself is already decently vague given that moving through mud well counts, which this addition is far easier to quantify.

Being able to swim or otherwise move underwater is unbelievably common, with most creatures being able to do it, to the point where someone that can't usually gets that fact listed as a weakness.

Correct, however being able to do so in any significant means is also common is fiction with it often being a primary advantage they have against others that aren't comparable. If the lack of something is enough to be a weakness, then being directly superior to it should be a notable ability.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

bump

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Permission to comment given by Finepoint

Wow, I had completely forgotten about this thread for awhile, I agree with the general consensus right now (that being the inclusion of examples 1, 3, 4 & 6) I had thought this would be pretty straightforward but it seems there is a divide with some members believing SPC is enough to give characters inhuman levels of speed in water, while it's true that it can, this is seldom the case for a lot of verses in fiction (unless the character is of an exceptionally high tier and is known for their universal mobility with something like...say flight) and even then sometimes such characters still suffer decreases in speed when in water. Regardless I do empathize with both sides here.

I also wanted to add some extra examples, namely Lamia for example 6 as she has a mermaid form that gives her increased mobility underwater. Then Vera and other Constructs scaling to her for example 3, as they're able to move at their normal speeds even when underwater and don't suffer any decreases in mobility, or even float or anything.

At best swimming very fast can be its own ability, but attempting to mash it with this one would cause an ill-fitting mess, so I will still continue to reject this suggestion.

Anyways, not to go too deep into that, I believe Ant's post here would work to satisfy both parties. As while he and Random believe such an ability would fail to be properly categorized via free movement they seem to agree that it is an ability at least, of course if my assumption is wrong either of you are free to correct me. If the OP and opposition has nothing against that, I'm wondering if changing the proposal accordingly would suffice?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, points 3 and maybe 4 seem fine, but definitely not the others, as they are not supernatural abilities.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Well, points 3 and maybe 4 seem fine, but definitely not the others, as they are not supernatural abilities.

I think 1 and 6 should count as well, being designed/evolved towards underwater movement should qualify for this sort of stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

But that is just natural or mechanical swimming capability, not supernatural, so it does not fit with Free Movement.

 

[Tllmbrg]

But that is just natural or mechanical swimming capability, not supernatural, so it does not fit with Free Movement.

...you can have Free Movement off non-supernatural means though?
First of all, we allow having the power off sheer speed if demonstrated, and there are IRL lizards that run over water like that as well. Not to mention various equipment to walk through snow more effectively.

So 1 and 6 should still count.

 

[Antvasima]

I very much greatly prefer if we do not allow real world swimming to be included within an actual superpower...

 

[Random-Helper323]

I'd think 1 works best as a form of Underwater Breathing if anything.

As for the rest...

The proposals don't fit the current Free Movement rules. The ability is all about walking on a surface that shouldn't be possible to walk on. Simply put, the things described are just swimming, which isn't at all the same.

 

[Antvasima]

Strongly agreed.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Yeah, this is just an ability that can occur in nature. Hell there are just a plethora of animals with specific traits that allow them to move through difficult terrain easily due to specific evolutionary traits.

Also, being technical, the Free Movement page doesn't except non-supernatural examples. Its an ability that is possible with high enough speeds, not even supernatural levels of it as seen in IRL cases

I very much greatly prefer if we do not allow real world swimming to be included within an actual superpower...

So would real-world water running not be allowed just because it exists already? As mentioned by Tllmbrg this just straight up exists. Characters notable in these areas are worthwhile indexing since we are entirely ignoring a big factor for water based characters simply because it's specifically water instead of something like snow

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I'd think 1 works best as a form of Underwater Breathing if anything.

As for the rest...

The proposals don't fit the current Free Movement rules. The ability is all about walking on a surface that shouldn't be possible to walk on. Simply put, the things described are just swimming, which isn't at all the same.

The argument isnt for the water walking description, its for the 2nd version of it which is being able to swiftly move through difficult terrain. As of now it only defined as things like snow but water is a far more common and applicable application for that definition

 

[Random-Helper323]

The page talks about moving through difficult terrains, talking about mud and deep snow. On a close inspection, this seems to be describing actions like walking on top of quicksand without sinking, or characters like Legolas walking on top of snow and grass while no-one else can. It even calls it snow walking, and meanwhile the entire page apart from that is talking about walking on water and clouds with characters known for that listed as examples and a GIF of Dash running on water. The wording doesn't make this as clear as it could though. Fixing the wording might be in order.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

LThe page talks about moving through difficult terrains, talking about mud and deep snow. On a close inspection, this seems to be describing actions like walking on top of quicksand without sinking, or characters like Legolas walking on top of snow and grass while no-one else can. It even calls it snow walking, and meanwhile the entire page apart from that is talking about walking on water and clouds with characters known for that an a GIF of Dash running on water. The wording doesn't make this as clear as it could though.

While a change of wording can make the argument invalid, the current wording does explicitly say "or traverse through" meaning other methods would also be valid. Swimming through snow rapidly like Bugs Bunny would be an applicable form of it.

I am perfectly fine with it being a new classification, but this IS an aspect of characters that have largely been ignored despite the common application for it with water based characters given how its often used with or against them

 

[Antvasima]

The page talks about moving through difficult terrains, talking about mud and deep snow. On a close inspection, this seems to be describing actions like walking on top of quicksand without sinking, or characters like Legolas walking on top of snow and grass while no-one else can. It even calls it snow walking, and meanwhile the entire page apart from that is talking about walking on water and clouds with characters known for that listed as examples and a GIF of Dash running on water. The wording doesn't make this as clear as it could though. Fixing the wording might be in order.

Making it clearer that the page is intended to strictly concern supernatural abilities seems like a good idea, yes.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Making it clearer that the page is intended to strictly concern supernatural abilities seems like a good idea, yes.

I dont think making it strictly supernatural was their point and instead that its strictly walking/running.

The Legolas example, from what I know, is legit just because of the shoes he wears. Something we as humans also have access to

 

[Random-Helper323]

While a change of wording can make the argument invalid, the current wording does explicitly say "or traverse through" meaning other methods would also be valid.

This would grant everyone who has ever walked in harsh snow or mud this ability, and the proposal would grant it to everyone that can swim or move in water. We probably have less than 100 characters that wouldn't get the ability based on that.

Making it clearer that the page is intended to strictly concern supernatural abilities seems like a good idea, yes.

It might not have to be supernatural. Anything that can walk on water, which a few animals can, would probably qualify. Just not everything that can walk in mud and/or swim/walk underwater.

I'd say clarify that it refers to walking on top of surfaces like quicksand or other surfaces that one should sink in.

 

[Antvasima]

This would grant everyone who has ever walked in harsh snow or mud this ability, and the proposal would grant it to everyone that can swim or move in water. We probably have less than 100 characters that wouldn't get the ability based on that.

It might not have to be supernatural. Anything that can walk on water, which a few animals can, would probably qualify. Just not everything that can walk in mud and/or swim/walk underwater.

I'd say clarify that it refers to walking on top of surfaces like quicksand or other surfaces that one should sink in.

Okay. That makes very good sense to me.