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Kefka vs Kafka (3-5-0)

DaReaperMan

DaReaperMan

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Honkai fans seem to be having too much fun. Let's change that.

Rules​

  1. Speed is equalized.
  2. Battle takes place in Kaas City on Dromund Kaas from SWTOR.
  3. Kefka and Kafka are in base.
  4. Both sides have prior knowledge on the other's appearance, hax/ability capabilities, but not sheer power.
  5. Start 10 meters away.

Votes​

Kefka: 3

Kafka: 5

Why do they have basically the same name?: 0
 
Last edited:
Nighting4l33yes said:
stupid question 2 but idk how matchups work so deal with it: when we say speed equalization. what does this extend to? if someone has light attacks that SoL, does it bypass that?
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Depends on their speed.

Speed equal rules reduce everything by the amount combat speed is reduced to the slower combatant. So for instance, if a Character is Rela+ with SoL attacks, and gets reduced to Supersonic, they still retain that attack speed advantage.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Depends on their speed.

Speed equal rules reduce everything by the amount combat speed is reduced to the slower combatant. So for instance, if a Character is Rela+ with SoL attacks, and gets reduced to Supersonic, they still retain that attack speed advantage.
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I see I see. How experienced is he in combat? Sure, he's a mage or something but how would he handle himself in melee combat?
 
Alright. I took a better look at his profile. Subjective Magic seems to be wrongfully used there. The scans don't seem to support this. They simply talk about mages visualising things in their mind to focus and make them appear.. It's just... them using their imagination? As for the Devi's Road scan, it seems to be misinterpreted as well and it's just a pocket reality/dimension that connects the two cities. Secondly, as for madness manip, that seems to stem from his God form so it shouldn't be applicable and it should probably be seperated in the indexing. Unless there's something I missed and he has that ability in his base form as well. However, AFAIK, in FFXIV there aren't any classes with this kind of CC. So it's unlikely he has it there.

Seeing as his weakness seems to be his arrogance, I do believe he wouldn't take her seriously knowing how vast the difference between their abilities is. It's unlikely he'd start with his strongest insta-kill spells. Because of this and the fact that Kafka can use Spirit Whisper instantly just by speaking I believe Kafka would win. Even if it doesn't completely affect him and it's only enough to distract him briefly, 10 meters is enough time to close the gap. At that point, I doubt he'd be able to keep up with her martial superiority. Especially since she outstats him in AP. He doesn't seem to have any forcefields or shields, so it's unlikely he'd be able to defend against her onslaught of offense.

I really wonder how many verses would be completely nuked if they underwent the same scrutiny Hoyo did.
HMutzZsWwAAhFAw
 
Using one's imagination to make things happen is like, LITERALLY textbook definition subjective reality.

Also, since it seems like a good chunk of the argument is going against the profile, and this isn't a CRT, I'm not gonna be counting the vote. Debate the file, not what ya think the file should be.
 
Ah yes, wrongfully used when the things they visualize in their head becomes reality and they have an entire training sequence when Palom's training a novice white mage on how to use basic magic in the series. By all means tell me how that's not subjective reality.

A pocket dimension that they made to remove the entire concept of time and merge the past, present and future, something made by people in a mage city to create a realm to fast travel from one location to another, again what about this is wrong?

Madness does not stem from his god form, he has the confuse spell from like his normal boss battle. Plus he commits mass genocide on the Espers and take all of their essence into himself granting him all of their magic long before he achieved godhood so these spells are still applicable to base Kefka. Also why are you bringing up FFXIV when Kefka barely has anything on his page that's even tied to XIV? You're just strawmanning what's on his page and what isn't.

Him not leading with his strongest instant kill spells is irrelevant when magic in FF period has Subjective Reality as the baseline for its power among several other things like Law Manipulation and Conceptual/Space-Time Manipulation. Any spell Kefka does on her would instantly screw her over, especially any basic elemental spells since they'll fry her nerves or warp her electrons to combust or freeze over to shatter instantly.
 
Anyways I'm voting for Kefka, him being able to catch on with Kafka's ability would mean he'd likely just go with a clone to fight her off in the fight while trying to spam magic from a distance in a similar manner to what he did to General Leo, plus his own shadow clone can use the same kinds of magic he does so she'd have to deal with two Kefkas spamming instant win spells at once.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Using one's imagination to make things happen is like, LITERALLY textbook definition subjective reality.
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Theglassman12 said:
Ah yes, wrongfully used when the things they visualize in their head becomes reality and they have an entire training sequence when Palom's training a novice white mage on how to use basic magic in the series. By all means tell me how that's not subjective reality.
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Theglassman12 said:
A pocket dimension that they made to remove the entire concept of time and merge the past, present and future, something made by people in a mage city to create a realm to fast travel from one location to another, again what about this is wrong?
Click to expand...
Um. That is definitely not the definition of Subjective Reality. Subjective Reality means someone's thoughts and perceptions including imagination directly determining the external world. If I imagine a castle, a castle would appear. Even in that video ("Palom's Tale"), the man tells the girl that she needs to visualize the spell to cast it. Not that the spell itself and magic itself stems from her imagination.

A pocket dimension can be altered according to the creator's whims. Including rewriting its laws. How is that "Subjective Reality"? At best it's just space manip which is what the other wiki suggests from the description. The properties of the environment are not properties of magic all over.
Theglassman12 said:
Madness does not stem from his god form, he has the confuse spell from like his normal boss battle. Plus he commits mass genocide on the Espers and take all of their essence into himself granting him all of their magic long before he achieved godhood so these spells are still applicable to base Kefka. Also why are you bringing up FFXIV when Kefka barely has anything on his page that's even tied to XIV? You're just strawmanning what's on his page and what isn't.
Click to expand...
He can have the spell but not the resistance. Is it stated anywhere that he has it before his Ascension? I am not strawmanning anything...? The only stats I found for him in his base form are from FFXIV. So I am just questioning whether he has demonstrated the resistance in there as well since that is the only appearance of his base self with stats.
Theglassman12 said:
Him not leading with his strongest instant kill spells is irrelevant when magic in FF period has Subjective Reality as the baseline for its power among several other things like Law Manipulation and Conceptual/Space-Time Manipulation.
Click to expand...
How is subjective reality an instant KO? It's just a way to use magic. It doesn't have any properties of its own. He can't spam an infinite array of spells all of the sudden just because he's thinking them. Does he not need to cast them???
DaReaperMan said:
Also, since it seems like a good chunk of the argument is going against the profile, and this isn't a CRT, I'm not gonna be counting the vote. Debate the file, not what ya think the file should be.
Click to expand...
It also seems wrong and unfair of you to not count my vote on that non-rule-relevant basis? I gave an explanation on both why I think that ability of his seems misinterpreted and why I believe she would win. Even with it, he doesn't have any spells like Existence Erasure or Reality Warping. I still think she would win due to the reasons I explained. If it's such a problem to you, you can disregard the first paragraph.
 
Nighting4l33yes said:
Um. That is definitely not the definition of Subjective Reality. Subjective Reality means someone's thoughts and perceptions including imagination directly determining the external world. If I imagine a castle, a castle would appear. Even in that video ("Palom's Tale"), the man tells the girl that she needs to visualize the spell to cast it. Not that the spell itself and magic itself stems from her imagination.
Click to expand...
...That's... that's literally how magic works for Kefka. You say this like it needs to be a passive effect, and it just... doesn't. Even me, someone who frankly doesn't really care about the story of Final Fantasy,(I'm a major casual, just like how I am with Hoyoverse stuff) can get that. If Kefka's thought is imagining turning this woman to ice that then shatters, then that's the reality imposed on the world.

Just because "reality" isn't mentioned doesn't make it not that hax, it's one's will/imagination being imposed on the world to cast magic. If that isn't subjective reality, what is it? Reality Warping?
 
DaReaperMan said:
...That's... that's literally how magic works for Kefka. You say this like it needs to be a passive effect, and it just... doesn't. Even me, someone who frankly doesn't really care about the story of Final Fantasy,(I'm a major casual, just like how I am with Hoyoverse stuff) can get that. If Kefka's thought is imagining turning this woman to ice that then shatters, then that's the reality imposed on the world.

Just because "reality" isn't mentioned doesn't make it not that hax, it's one's will/imagination being imposed on the world to cast magic. If that isn't subjective reality, what is it? Reality Warping?
Click to expand...
The scans don't seem to support Subjective Reality. If he can simply cast spells instantly with his mind, that's still not it.

Anyway. If he has spells that aren't projectiles and can affect her before she can snap her fingers or speak, then she loses. Which at this point, I am not sure how it isn't a stomp then if her wincons aren't practically possible.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Him not leading with his strongest instant kill spells is irrelevant when magic in FF period has Subjective Reality as the baseline for its power among several other things like Law Manipulation and Conceptual/Space-Time Manipulation. Any spell Kefka does on her would instantly screw her over, especially any basic elemental spells since they'll fry her nerves or warp her electrons to combust or freeze over to shatter instantly.
Click to expand...
The law manipulation doesn't really add much here. Manipulating the natural order of things to launch a fireball isn't really different from just a generic "fireball" spell, and law manipulation resistance isn't needed to withstand it. You wouldn't need resistance to conceptual manipulation to withstand it either, its not like all of Kefka's basic spells remove the concept of space-time from an opponent. Kafka has resistance to freezing and burning and idk how strong it is, but if the freeze status in Honkai Star Rail is treated as freezing you in a block of ice then Kafka should be able to resist it since that would also warp electrons
 
Hypertornado099 said:
The law manipulation doesn't really add much here. Manipulating the natural order of things to launch a fireball isn't really different from just a generic "fireball" spell, and law manipulation resistance isn't needed to withstand it. You wouldn't need resistance to conceptual manipulation to withstand it either, its not like all of Kefka's basic spells remove the concept of space-time from an opponent. Kafka has resistance to freezing and burning and idk how strong it is, but if the freeze status in Honkai Star Rail is treated as freezing you in a block of ice then Kafka should be able to resist it since that would also warp electrons
Click to expand...
That's what I was saying basically. And good point on status effects.
 
@Hypertornado099 Law Manipulation isn’t the only thing I’m using for the win con, Subjective reality is what I’m focusing on and Final Fantasy doesn’t treat fire spells as launching a fire ball, it’s warping your electrons to make it too fast you’re set on fire or too slow to the point you freeze and shatter.

@Nighting4l33yes His resistance comes from resisting the effects in game since he can shrug off nearly every status ailment type of move in game. That’s where it comes from, so trying to cast mind or madness hax on Kefka won’t work with his innate resistances.

Simple, Kefka imagines Kafka is set on fire instantly via electrons in her body being warped or her freezing into a statue via her electrons being warped of her nerves being targeted directly via lightning spells and she falls over. She has no resistances to these effects and especially not the basic aspect of it. You just saying it’s not Subjective Reality isn’t an argument since that’s what’s accepted on the page. You don’t like it? Make a CRT
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Nighting4l33yes His resistance comes from resisting the effects in game since he can shrug off nearly every status ailment type of move in game. That’s where it comes from, so trying to cast mind or madness hax on Kefka won’t work with his innate resistances.
Click to expand...
His profile doesn't mention Mind Manip Res. Just Madness Manip. She is also immunte to both burning and freezing. Including paralysis inducement.
 
Nighting4l33yes said:
Um. That is definitely not the definition of Subjective Reality.
Click to expand...
Completely, objectively, positively, wrong my friend. Subjective Reality is quite literally the power to turn things you imagine into reality, it is that simple, and that's precisely the ability Kefka has, please re-read the page like...VERY carefully it should be one of the easiest abilities to understand on the wiki
Theglassman12 said:
Anyways I'm voting for Kefka, him being able to catch on with Kafka's ability would mean he'd likely just go with a clone to fight her off in the fight while trying to spam magic from a distance in a similar manner to what he did to General Leo, plus his own shadow clone can use the same kinds of magic he does so she'd have to deal with two Kefkas spamming instant win spells at once.
Click to expand...
Anyways, Kefka FRA
 
@Doggo It’s literally the most basic application of Final Fantasy magic, at least in the classic era. Any of the spells Kefka casts is him projecting what he’s imagining into reality, he imagines his target being frozen, burnt, driven mad, paralyzed among other status ailments in the final fantasy games are stuff he can do from the basic application.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Law Manipulation isn’t the only thing I’m using for the win con, Subjective reality is what I’m focusing on and Final Fantasy doesn’t treat fire spells as launching a fire ball, it’s warping your electrons to make it too fast you’re set on fire or too slow to the point you freeze and shatter.
Click to expand...
Theglassman12 said:
Simple, Kefka imagines Kafka is set on fire instantly via electrons in her body being warped or her freezing into a statue via her electrons being warped of her nerves being targeted directly via lightning spells and she falls over. She has no resistances to these effects and especially not the basic aspect of it.
Click to expand...
It being subjective reality doesn't really make it that much more powerful though. In practice, its just "manifesting a fire/freeze" effect on his opponent. You don't need resistance to subjective reality in order to survive that. The electrons being targeted isn't actually impressive- I don't doubt that its "subatomic particle manipulation" but it doesn't make it harder to survive


Kafka resists fire and ice manipulation, so that could be enough. She has resistance to electricity, but not "burning all your nerves", but then again, I don't know how much more powerful this is compared to regular lightning which also affects the nerves

Kafka on the other hand, can just use a regular attack and one shot due to her higher AP so I'm voting her
 
Hypertornado099 said:
It being subjective reality doesn't really make it that much more powerful though. In practice, its just "manifesting a fire/freeze" effect on his opponent. You don't need resistance to subjective reality in order to survive that. The electrons being targeted isn't actually impressive- I don't doubt that its "subatomic particle manipulation" but it doesn't make it harder to survive
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it really does she has to resist matter manip instead of just fire/ice manip since the spell works by accelerating/decelerating electrons. if she gets hit she immediately combusts or has her durability negated
 
Rutæhh said:
it really does she has to resist matter manip instead of just fire/ice manip since the spell works by accelerating/decelerating electrons. if she gets hit she immediately combusts or has her durability negated
Click to expand...
I think you're focusing too hard on the fact that it has "subatomic level matter manipulation" rather than what it actually means in practice. When Kefka increases the speed of electrons, it sets Kafka on fire. Kafka has resistance to fire manipulation, so she should be able to survive this even if she can't resist matter manipulation. If Kefka decreases the speed of Kafka's electrons, it could freeze her, but she resists ice manipulation so she's probably fine.

In short, Kafka doesn't need to resist matter manipulation to withstand his spells. She just needs to resist the fire and ice aspect of it
 
Kefka:


Kafka:


In character, Kefka likes to start with physical attacks. In some cinematic battles, Kefka is scripted to only use physical attacks. In his normal boss fights, he starts with physical strikes more often. Kefka might be able to absorb the electricity, but Kafka knows this and will likely try to bypass it by shooting at him with her gun or by using physical attacks. Kafka doesn't resist poison or disease manipulation, but it won't instantly kill her and she knows Kefka has this ability

Win cons:

Kefka's only possible win cons are through magic that he often times does not start with. Additionally, Kefka's spells will not be able to one shot her as she can withstand being set alight and Kefka only briefly freezes you. Kafka's win con is literally just landing a single hit

My vote goes to Kafka
 
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