Project Moon Discussion 2

[AthelChan]

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fthis-could-genuinely-become-a-reality-v0-1u71i1xy85ch1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D556%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D7521552c432c2fc1831a4376447b9ce2b991dc46

 

[DMUA]

I finished Kira's profile

You really just flat out ignored all the talk about irrelevant low quality pages being pumped out and did this without any consultation about their tiers again, huh

 

[Ubdon]

So what a walpipi huh
Pulled Faust, Yi Sang and Binah. Got Gregor from pity (tho kinda wanted Netz)
From what I've seen new Dawns completely implement themselves in both burn and tremor teams.

 

[ElajRuengies]

So what a walpipi huh
Pulled Faust, Yi Sang and Binah. Got Gregor from pity (tho kinda wanted Netz)
From what I've seen new Dawns completely implement themselves in both burn and tremor teams.

I have enough to pity but I'm gonna get the Ricardo Announcer instead, can always use crates next Walpurgis for Gregor.

Got Faust and Gatling Solemn Lament, and more importantly the Binah Announcer. It's hilarious how well some of her Lobotomy Corp lines work in Limbus.

Nice to know from the flavor text that Walpurgis Scaling is still semi valid. Definitely important for the CRT I'm planning.

 

[First_Witch]

I drew the last Walpipi ID ON THE 200 PULL. Dead Pity

 

[DMUA]

Nice to know from the flavor text that Walpurgis Scaling is still semi valid.

Well in this case in particular they go out of their way to mention that Dawn Office is in a better state than it was in the main timeline and Gregor hasn't quite fallen out of his prime the same way Salvador had, given the passive Dawn Office goes out of it's way to mention that they're operating at a Grade 1's level but combat capability doesn't solely determine the grade someone lands at (Since I guess Ezra was lonely as a walking contradiction to that idea)

I should dig it up but I know someone mentioned KJH wanted some Walpurgisnachts to go over stronger versions of Ruina characters that fulfilled their potential or didn't fall to the wayside, stuff like Streetlight Office having Mars actually be on par with his Mom (whoever they even are)

 

[ElajRuengies]

I should dig it up but I know someone mentioned KJH wanted some Walpurgisnachts to go over stronger versions of Ruina characters that fulfilled their potential or didn't fall to the wayside, stuff like Streetlight Office having Mars actually be on par with his Mom (whoever they even are)

When I saw that Mars's keypage was considered an Objet d'Art, I was waiting for his mom to show up.

...And now I'm in Impuritas, the Blue Man's group is knocking on my front door, I've done every general reception in the game... Where the heck is this boy's mom?!

 

[MysticBrawler]

You really just flat out ignored all the talk about irrelevant low quality pages being pumped out

That's actually why I waited as long as I did before making Kira's profile. With that said, seeing as it's been months since another profile was made I decided that I've waited long enough and just went ahead with making Kira's profile.

and did this without any consultation about their tiers again, huh

Seeing as Kira's scaling is fairly straightforward and she doesn't have any particularly controversial abilities I figured that a debate wasn't really necessary for her.

 

[DMUA]

That's actually why I waited as long as I did before making Kira's profile. With that said, seeing as it's been months since another profile was made I decided that I've waited long enough and just went ahead with making Kira's profile.

You had months and you can't be bothered to actually write out Notable attacks/techniques or check for formatting errors, like your signature lack of spacing between justification and stat?

You're not exactly helping the state of the verse by being under some impression that there must be a new page before a certain timer runs out regardless of how important that character is to the overall setting, dude.

Seeing as Kira's scaling is fairly straightforward

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward that she's level 65 and that her holding down Vespa's blades for even a split second is a major outlier by pretty much any context you could assign to it but the page doesn't seem to reflect this. Sora is the exact same level and gets a ton of boosts on top of that from EGO but gets utterly flattened by Vespa, Lucio even surviving a color fixer (And definitely not actually managing to make any headway in that fight even compared to his master Valencina who can only really dodge and hold out for longer than she should be able to) is treated as a decently big deal, and Albina dealing with someone 7 levels weaker than Vespa left her a pile of gore on the ground.

Heck even just taking the scene at face value it's pretty weak for scaling, given the entire idea of that is her managing to get an ambush and very briefly distracting him rather than actually going for a killshot, to say nothing of how her trying to punch through Ezra's assist defenses end about as well as Raiden fighting Armstrong with his bare hands. It just doesn't make sense to ignore all of that and say that she actually is kind of in the range of a color fixer's strength despite people much stronger than her struggling severely with them.

 

[Ubdon]

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward that she's level 65 and that her holding down Vespa's blades for even a split second is a major outlier by pretty much any context you could assign to it but the page doesn't seem to reflect this. Sora is the exact same level and gets a ton of boosts on top of that from EGO but gets utterly flattened by Vespa, Lucio even surviving a color fixer (And definitely not actually managing to make any headway in that fight even compared to his master Valencina who can only really dodge and hold out for longer than she should be able to) is treated as a decently big deal, and Albina dealing with someone 7 levels weaker than Vespa left her a pile of gore on the ground.

Heck even just taking the scene at face value it's pretty weak for scaling, given the entire idea of that is her managing to get an ambush and very briefly distracting him rather than actually going for a killshot, to say nothing of how her trying to punch through Ezra's assist defenses end about as well as Raiden fighting Armstrong with his bare hands. It just doesn't make sense to ignore all of that and say that she actually is kind of in the range of a color fixer's strength despite people much stronger than her struggling severely with them.

I honestly had no idea how she got "likely Low 7-B, higher with amplifications" like she anywhere close to colors and sancho.

Also, Kira of all people? There like 3 or 4 pages that upscale to Argalia without Argalia having profile

 

[DMUA]

Addendum: I guess there's also that time that Kira deflected a blow from a Maestro but upon looking at the context again she literally, directly states that they're way too strong for her to reasonably deal with so that has the same issues as her holding down Vespa

 

[MysticBrawler]

Addendum: I guess there's also that time that Kira deflected a blow from a Maestro but upon looking at the context again she literally, directly states that they're way too strong for her to reasonably deal with so that has the same issues as her holding down Vespa

Seeing as Maestro's attack literally turned Don Quixote to paste just from her trying to redirect it from an angle while Kira was able to take it head-on I'd say her scaling is very much justified.

 

[DMUA]

Seeing as Maestro's attack literally turned Don Quixote to paste just from her trying to redirect it from an angle while Kira was able to take it head-on I'd say her scaling is very much justified.

Justified doesn't make it a good justification or remotely consistent. Literally everything but those two scenes taken generously tell us that Kira isn't remarkably stronger than the sinners or the other apprentices.

 

[MysticBrawler]

I honestly had no idea how she got "likely Low 7-B, higher with amplifications" like she anywhere close to colors and sancho.

Also, Kira of all people? There like 3 or 4 pages that upscale to Argalia without Argalia having profile

She's not scaling to Colors she's scaling to the "Certain Grade 1"(i.e. the WAW-ALEPH tier) which is where the Ring Maestro's scale to as she was able to take a Maestro's attack head-on in the Intervallo VII(Twinning Threads), with said Maestro being strong enough to mulch Don Quixote just from her trying to redirect it.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Justified doesn't make it a good justification or remotely consistent. Literally everything but those two scenes taken generously tell us that Kira isn't remarkably stronger than the sinners or the other apprentices.

If Don Quixote(who is recognized as the strongest Sinner in the group) can't even withstand the force of a Maestro's attack despite her not even taking a direct hit while Kira can despite losing half of her augmentation tattoos then I think it's safe to say that the latter is stronger by default. And why eaxactly do you keep insisting that it's inconsistent when Kira doesn't even have any anti-feats that contradict her shown feats

 

[DMUA]

If Don Quixote(who is recognized as the strongest Sinner in the group)

Prior to joining the company, which made everyone equally mediocre.

Can't even withstand the force of a Maestro's attack despite her not even taking a direct hit while Kira can despite losing half of her augmentation tattoos then I think it's safe to say that the latter is stronger by default.

By itself, sure. When Kira herself directly states it's something that her and all the sinners can't deal with? When people as strong as her do not have showings on that level in any other instance? No.

And why eaxactly do you keep insisting that it's inconsistent when Kira doesn't even have any anti-feats that contradict her shown feats

How about every time the sinners including Don are perfectly capable of clashing and overpowering her during the Middle Nursefather fight? How about Rufo being rated as being a level higher than her and having a whole fight despite this assertion being she could have instantly gored them and moved on? How about when Vespa completely dominated Sora while she was much more buffed, despite being the same level as Kira? How about when Lucio gets trounced in any clash with Vergilius and his claim to fame not being within the same realm of strength, but surviving an encounter with the Red Gaze despite it happening quite briefly before Valencina intervened? How about Albina's disorganized remains after taking one solid shot from someone 7 levels weaker than Vespa, who Kira is supposedly able to briefly match in strength?

Were none of those anti feats or contradictions?

 

[Ubdon]

She's not scaling to Colors she's scaling to the "Certain Grade 1"(i.e. the WAW-ALEPH tier)

Am I missing something

 

[MysticBrawler]

Am I missing something

Please check the Scaling Guide.

 

[Tyranno223]

Justified doesn't make it a good justification or remotely consistent. Literally everything but those two scenes taken generously tell us that Kira isn't remarkably stronger than the sinners or the other apprentices.

Heck, we're literally told outright that Kira being in the fight against Rufo made a negligible difference to the outcome.

At this point, I kinda want to call for a ban to new profiles until we get some of the relevant ones out.

 

[DMUA]

At this point, I kinda want to call for a ban to new profiles until we get some of the relevant ones out.

I wouldn't even care if they were better quality but like... yeah.

At this point I've got to make a CRT on that topic though, and maybe actually drum up the desire to make Vespa's page to knock one relevant one off the block (I did say I would do that awhile ago, even if I also gave myself an out in the form of "maybe")

 

[Ubdon]

Please check the Scaling Guide.

Which one

 

[MysticBrawler]

Prior to joining the company, which made everyone equally mediocre.

I'm pretty sure she's recognized as the strongest even in her depowered state.

By itself, sure. When Kira herself directly states it's something that her and all the sinners can't deal with? When people as strong as her do not have showings on that level in any other instance? No.

Actions speak louder than words, and shown feats take priority over statements.

How about every time the sinners including Don are perfectly capable of clashing and overpowering her during the Middle Nursefather fight?

And? She's more than capable of doing the same as well.

How about Rufo being rated as being a level higher than her and having a whole fight despite this assertion being she could have instantly gored them and moved on?

You can weaker than someone and still be in the same tier you know.

How about when Vespa completely dominated Sora while she was much more buffed, despite being the same level as Kira?

Honest question: Do the apprentices even have scaling to each other?

How about when Lucio gets trounced in any clash with Vergilius and his claim to fame not being within the same realm of strength, but surviving an encounter with the Red Gaze despite it happening quite briefly before Valencina intervened?

Same as above.

How about Albina's disorganized remains after taking one solid shot from someone 7 levels weaker than Vespa, who Kira is supposedly able to briefly match in strength?

You do realize Future Sinclair is not only significantly stronger than the current one, but is also using Shin/Mang right?

Were none of those anti feats or contradictions?

No, not really. Cause like I said, you can be weaker than someone and still be in the same tier and I don't think the apprentices actually cross-scale to each other.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Which one

The one right below the explanation pages.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Heck, we're literally told outright that Kira being in the fight against Rufo made a negligible difference to the outcome.

At this point, I kinda want to call for a ban to new profiles until we get some of the relevant ones out.

I don't see how that's supposed to be an anti-feat when it's obvious(and acknowledged by the narrative) that Kira did very much made a difference during their encounter with the Ring Maestro.

 

[Ubdon]

The one right below the explanation pages.

Alr I checked

Kira not very fitting for this particular group ngl

Like each and every of listed title either have higher level that kira or not in limbus yet but probably will be higher level

 

[DMUA]

I'm pretty sure she's recognized as the strongest even in her depowered state.

I'm going to trust the scientist directly taking their measurements and then putting them in the lineup, if you don't mind. He never mentions this and I can't think of anything else that would allude to it either.

Actions speak louder than words, and shown feats take priority over statements.

Entire battles involve actions, and I listed quite a few. Statements clarify those.

And? She's more than capable of doing the same as well.

That would make them about equivalent, not "Kira could swing her sword once and instantly reduce Don to pasta sauce"

You can weaker than someone and still be in the same tier you know.

You can't however, be so strong as to instantly gore someone and then fail to gore them, as Kira does (or if you assert Rufo just scales to Maestros, Rufo does against the sinners for that entire fight)

Honest question: Do the apprentices even have scaling to each other?

Albina and Ren have a whole melee with each other over a disagreement, they certainly seem to be peers judging by every single one having the same level. Obviously Sora's EGO makes her a lot stronger but that's a buff specific to her rather than her just being built different.

You do realize Future Sinclair is not only significantly stronger than the current one, but is also using Shin/Mang right?

He is however weaker than Vespa, whom you're asserting that Kira can contend with.

No, not really. Cause like I said, you can be weaker than someone and still be in the same tier

Seriously, what on God's green earth allows you to be the "same tier" and block attacks that instantly gore someone you're supposed to be equal to? Wouldn't it be much simpler to say that managing to somehow withstand an attack from someone really strong while freaking out because you know they'll beat you if things drag on doesn't mean you scale to them?

 

[Tyranno223]

I don't see how that's supposed to be an anti-feat when it's obvious(and acknowledged by the narrative) that Kira did very much made a difference during their encounter with the Ring Maestro.

Withstanding a single blow by intercepting it midswing isn't enough for direct scaling, especially when Kira knows she's going to be slaughtered.

Sure she's stronger than the Sinners, she's 5 levels above them, but that's not going to put her in the same tier as bloody Colours.

And it's an anti-feat because one, Rufo is far far below any Colour level fighter, and two, the Sinners are far below any Colour level fighter and yet aren't that far off Kira.

 

[DMUA]

I don't see how that's supposed to be an anti-feat when it's obvious(and acknowledged by the narrative) that Kira did very much made a difference during their encounter with the Ring Maestro.

One of the smartest characters in the setting seems to directly disagree with you, here.

 

[Ubdon]

Colour level

After reading guide I believe Mystic wanted Kira to scale to these (which I still disagree with)

 

[Ubdon]

I wouldn't even care if they were better quality but like... yeah.

At this point I've got to make a CRT on that topic though, and maybe actually drum up the desire to make Vespa's page to knock one relevant one off the block (I did say I would do that awhile ago, even if I also gave myself an out in the form of "maybe")

Btw, was there crt or discussion about which gameplay mechanics can and cannot be used for scaling?

 

[DMUA]

Btw, was there crt or discussion about which gameplay mechanics can and cannot be used for scaling?

Nah

I think levels are incredibly consistent even including data mined ones (outside of Moses who is a bafflingly extreme exception), stuff like Ricardo being Level 60 all the way back in Canto 4 and then not just being that level in Nocturnal Sweeping, but being that level alongside Queen of Hatred, Vergilius being level 90 in Canto 6 and Jia Qiu being Level 90 as one of the candidates for strongest fixer in the city (one of many statements I know is out there but I haven't gotten a link or translation to), but none of that's gone on a proper thread discussing it because I think (?) we're all pretty much on the same page. Besides Mystic I suppose, given this is the third time he's ignored a character's level to rate them far stronger than it would suggest

 

[Tyranno223]

SNIP

Plus PM advocates level scaling to a degree since they altered Rufo's level to be higher than Kira to fit the story.

 

[Tyranno223]

Also here.

 

[Ubdon]

Nah

I think levels are incredibly consistent even including data mined ones (outside of Moses who is a bafflingly extreme exception), stuff like Ricardo being Level 60 all the way back in Canto 4 and then not just being that level in Nocturnal Sweeping, but being that level alongside Queen of Hatred, Vergilius being level 90 in Canto 6 and Jia Qiu being Level 90 as one of the candidates for strongest fixer in the city (one of many statements I know is out there but I haven't gotten a link or translation to), but none of that's gone on a proper thread discussing it because I think (?) we're all pretty much on the same page. Besides Mystic I suppose, given this is the third time he's ignored a character's level to rate them far stronger than it would suggest

It just that I'm also kinda curios about mechanics like speed dices and clashing.

Because stuff like haste sounds really wacky when it's tied to mechanic we might not even use in scaling.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Nah

I think levels are incredibly consistent even including data mined ones (outside of Moses who is a bafflingly extreme exception), stuff like Ricardo being Level 60 all the way back in Canto 4 and then not just being that level in Nocturnal Sweeping, but being that level alongside Queen of Hatred, Vergilius being level 90 in Canto 6 and Jia Qiu being Level 90 as one of the candidates for strongest fixer in the city (one of many statements I know is out there but I haven't gotten a link or translation to), but none of that's gone on a proper thread discussing it because I think (?) we're all pretty much on the same page. Besides Mystic I suppose, given this is the third time he's ignored a character's level to rate them far stronger than it would suggest

So your saying that you agree with the Night Drifter being stronger than Ricardo then?

 

[MysticBrawler]

Nah

I think levels are incredibly consistent even including data mined ones (outside of Moses who is a bafflingly extreme exception), stuff like Ricardo being Level 60 all the way back in Canto 4 and then not just being that level in Nocturnal Sweeping, but being that level alongside Queen of Hatred, Vergilius being level 90 in Canto 6 and Jia Qiu being Level 90 as one of the candidates for strongest fixer in the city (one of many statements I know is out there but I haven't gotten a link or translation to), but none of that's gone on a proper thread discussing it because I think (?) we're all pretty much on the same page. Besides Mystic I suppose, given this is the third time he's ignored a character's level to rate them far stronger than it would suggest

Also Kira is literally 1 level lower than Rufo. Are you seriously saying that that's enough for her to not scale to her?

 

[MysticBrawler]

One of the smartest characters in the setting seems to directly disagree with you, here.

Have you considered the possibility that the reason she said that is because the Sinners are all supposed to be in Ricardo's level at this point in the story?

 

[MysticBrawler]

Plus PM advocates level scaling to a degree since they altered Rufo's level to be higher than Kira to fit the story.

Also Kira is literally 1 level lower than Rufo. Are you seriously saying that that's enough for her to not scale to her?

 

[ElajRuengies]

Oh my goodness, stop spamming replies in different messages and consolidate all your thoughts into one message. You're eating page space. If you have another idea later, just edit the last message you sent and add it to that one.

So your saying that you agree with the Night Drifter being stronger than Ricardo then?

Dude was one of the Ten Blades of the East and he made a living killing folk with a literal twig.

Plus PM advocates level scaling to a degree since they altered Rufo's level to be higher than Kira to fit the story.

Also the N Corp. Goons got nerfed from Level 60 to Level 50 since them being as strong as non-nerfed Mao Branch Heishou was wack.

At this point, I kinda want to call for a ban to new profiles until we get some of the relevant ones out.

Thirding this.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Dude was one of the Ten Blades of the East and he made a living killing folk with a literal twig.

Oh ok. So is it safe to say that there's no problem with Jia Xichun also being a scaled to splitters as well?

Also the N Corp. Goons got nerfed from Level 60 to Level 50 since them being as strong as non-nerfed Mao Branch Heishou was wack.

Thirding this.

Well if we're so set on following the levels then isn't that all the more justification for Kira to scale to the WAW-ALEPH tier? Since she's 5 levels above the Sinners and just 1 level below Rufo, on top of her being previously shown to be capable of clashing head-on with a Ring Maestro.