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What a Beautiful Series: Possible Tier 1 Upgrade

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Celestial_Pegasus

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M's Nature​


Re-reading the series, got me thinking about M's tiering.

Starting from the bottom working my way up; in Sona Nyl: The Red Tears of Huitzilopochtli, M is stated to be the featureless, infinite darkness, supporting the abyss and the vast cosmos.

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In a Sona-Nyl side story, M is stated the infinite darkness that possess/encompasses the universe and is one of the traits of the universe

Will people remember the Black King?
The Outer God.
The King of the Gods.
The Howler in Darkness. The Crawling Chaos. The Dark Universe itself. The one who seeks Gold.
It is incomparable to the Old Ones. The Foreign God, the Black King, a real one who can exist as matter and that which is all of darkness is its domain.
The galaxy that encompasses our planet, the cluster of galaxies it gathers, and the vast infinite darkness that possesses it, that is, the universe, is one of the many certain traits in the universe that is black, darkness, and one of the Outer Gods.
The Black King, who is said to have a thousand manifestations on a planetary to even galactic scale was observed by Professor Moriarty at a young age, who left behind a paper. It overlooked the existence of A.Z.T.T, but...
Ah, the Black King. The one who flew from outer space. The dull traces of the God who hides himself. The Knight of the Abyss, the Jet Black Outer God who remade the dark universe to search for the Golden Eyes that flew from outer space to this planet.
After visiting the planet, it is said that it ruled and reigned relatively benignly over those who behaved as its God King. Did you see in the fading illusion the profile of the one from outside that had once disappeared?
Even after the end of ancient times, the Black King did not perish.
Do you remember?
People, he chose to be the only king in the Dark Palace.- Shiei no Sona Nyl: Unknown Author Description

In a Sharnoth sidestory, Sharnoth is said to be a realm of darkness which no technology no matter how advanced tech becomes can detect

──This is the Abyss where the Black King is.
──This is the Tone of the Abyss.

It is a world full of dark stars.

It does not receive any and all light, and remains in a state of deep darkness. Nothing, no matter how advanced machines become, can detect its existence. It could be an alien world beyond the edge, a planet of darkness and Pitch Black, a palace of the God who reigned over the Deep Continent, or an eternal prison where darkness is banished. Naturally, very few who believe in it exists. Few who have heard of it.

Even now in the 20th century, its existence is only praised in a part of the occult as the Pitch Black World, the Dark Universe of the End, the Dark Palace, the Event Horizon, and it was simply called Sharnoth. But there was no difference from each other.

Thus, let us examine words that have not yet been known──
Words of the Dark World──
Words of the Universe of the End──
Words from the ends of the Earth── Shikkoku no Sharnoth: Black Voice

M is the Pitch Black which encompasses the universe, one of the 3 elements that make it up along with time and space
She left several chilling incantations about various evil rituals and offerings, and one of the incantations, in Latin, sounded like someone's words that day.
*'Why'
*'Why'
*'Why'
*'Why Disappear'
*'Why Leave'
*'Why Crush'
*'Oh, Eyes!'
*'Oh, radiant!'
──'Oh, light!'

The content of these words is probably a record of the physics and motion of the times. To be exact, it was merely a record of the absolute scale of the event that shattered the stars beyond time and space, the supergravity that mercilessly penetrated the universe, which is impossible to speak of in the words of our humble humanity, and therefore meaningless, and yes, that's why a few years later an eccentric master's degree in eccentricity was written by an eccentric Aleister Crowley.

It didn't cause any surges. In the end, anyone who was a scientist, not to mention some others, would have figured out the meaning of "black needle".

[It is simply a record of phenomena, not a language of the gods of the deep universe.
It is a clue to the Big Crunch, an exploration of the Big Bang]

The Scholar's friend who was listening to him did not know what he meant by that.
Confused, he asked "Why do you say that when language as a physical phenomenon is so baffling?"

[Black. Darkness.
The existence of the Pitch Black ether that drifts between the planets.
It encompasses the entire universe, the very universe itself.
It is one of the three elements that make up the world along with time and space.]


Just based on these it would seem like he just operates on a universal scale, though i find the statement about "a record of the absolute scale of the event that shattered the stars beyond time and space" interesting, this is clearly referring to M.

Context here is that a witch spoke words which were beyond understanding (witches in verse use black magic which comes from M, so this makes sense), and later some scientist understood it, the words she spoke about disappearing and eyes, is all about M; the fact that he is a lonely king whose people left him, his obsession with the golden eyes etc, so this is a statement saying M is beyond time and space, and encompasses the universe.

Looking at what was said in Sharnoth, scans and what not are already on his profile, but this here is a good rundown; M is stated the same as Sharnoth, an infinite world of darkness.

Chapter 10 of Sharnoth also states he can rewrite all worlds, we limited this statement to just Sharnoth years ago (of which countless exist), when the full scope of the cosmology wasn't understood, but all worlds, means all worlds, not just Sharnoth.

Then we get to the Steampunk Series Fullvoice Reborn. This statement is why M is currently 2-A, lets re-look at it. This occurs as a result of a member of the Society talking about M's nature, here is the whole context

"The Black King..."


The light responds and announces a voice.
Softly, with a flicker of great interest. The light speaks, signaling its intentions, emitting a voice of mystery that is not properly a voice. Much like the light the lost sky once brought, something very different speaks.
Like a swaying illusion.
Like a crawling fantasy.

"What kind of person are they?"

"They are not human.
The Society has concluded that they are a highly conceptual entity."

"A concept?"

"Yes. That of Jet Black."


"Then it is only a metaphysical entity.
They are an illusion, something that should not have a physical effect on mankind and the world."


"Not really."


"?"


"That which is beyond comprehension.
That which is beyond human understanding.
If you call it an illusion, for example, then sure, that would be it."


The man shrugged his shoulders.
The gesture was much like the gestures of Engine factory workers swearing at the still engine smoke, but the soft light didn't even notice it.


"It's capable of making an influence. It's different.
Rather, it's something else.
On the contrary, everything could be a part of that reason and law. For example, in the distant past, beyond time, space, and causality, his "Jet Black" devoured several infinitely stacked, multilayered universes that multiply indefinitely. Or even that..."


"?"


"You won't be able to understand it.
It's impossible for you."- Steampunk Series Fullvoice Reborn: Sharnoth of the Jet Black

As can be seen here the context is that M is a metaphysical/conceptual entity to which one of the characters asks, if M is an illusion he should have no influence on reality right? The other character refutes that says he does, on the contrary everything could be apart of that reason/law, in other words M, he then goes on to give the example of beyond time, and space, M's "Jet Black" devouring several infinitely stacked, multilayered universes that multiply indefinitely

A little later down this same story, we get some more information

"This is a story of feelings from the distant Abyss.
These are the traces of the eyes that sought tomorrow.
At times, even when faced with the Jet Black that eats up all of the sky, it does not falter. It does not stop walking.
I will teach you the name of the dreadful Jet Black."


"The name of Jet Black. This is..."


"...beyond eternity and infinity. A world without light. Its name is Sharnoth of the Jet Black."- Steampunk Series Fullvoice Reborn: Sharnoth of the Jet Black


It states essentially that M is beyond infinity, which considering the previous context makes perfect sense. M is beyond the infinity of infinite universes.

After posting this thread and reading some more stories I found another interesting statement about M. It states that M is a transcendent being of the outer universe

Did you go to the moon?

How could such a thing be possible?

It was impossible.

It has been a long time since we have been denied the ethereal oceans of fantastical fiction that floated in faraway galaxies, but what we have instead learned about outer space is the cold, stern fact that it is nothing but an infinite darkness of death. People may be able to fly through the dark clouds with an engine airship, but even if they are able to penetrate the eternal gray clouds that have been darkened since the last century by the developed Steam Engine civilization, they will not be able to go out into space.

The world of the stars is the darkness of infinite death, or as some occultists I know would describe it, the black garden of death, stagnation, an eternal infinity filled with dark matter that constitutes the fearsome Black King, the transcendent being of the outer universe.- Ulthar Thoughts (Mushoku no Ulthar - END of the Shining World)

Ulthar takes place in a parallel world, the fact that M is again stated be the infinite darkness of this world, while also being a transcendent being from outside it, basically puts everything together. The previous statements about M being the darkness of the universe, a trait along with space-time, is true, but he isn't limited to 1 universe, he is in fact the darkness of all universes, everything is apart of M. He is a transcendent being, who transcends the time and space of infinite universe.


TLDR:
  • M is the infinite darkness that is beyond the infinity of infinite universes
  • Infinite universes are just part of/encompassed by M, who exists beyond time and space
  • M is a transcendent being from the outer universe, who exist as the infinite darkness, present in all universes.

M's Tiering​


This is an interesting topic, I don't claim to be a Tier 1 expert, so this could go either way, but the argument for Low 1-C I suppose is that M is the dark universe itself, which is infinitely beyond infinite universes, and is a transcendent being, who is beyond time and space itself, with infinite universes being embedded/part of the bigger universe that is Sharnoth.
 
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I could also add about both when Lily was dream walking in the side story (namely it was theorized its metaphysical and the like) showing the dreams are in a way a myriad of tales and anyone in Hypnos's bar when they order a drink strangely calls the names of stories that Sakurai has:

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20240130171842_1.jpg

20240130171714_1.jpg
 
It's interesting, but not really relevant since Golden King is also in the bar, and doesn't really operate on a universal scale, much less multiversal, though so far only M and Edison have drank those stories, from what I remember.

But anyway, the bar and its drinks haven't been fully explained yet.
 
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Yeah, we don't really know the significance of what the drinks ordered in Hypnos bar is tbh. Neither in Hypnos Evil Eye or in the Engine Dictionary's dream wandering.

The most I got when I asked someone on another forum what this was all about is there's just something going on in the places that were name dropped as drinks, like Gahkthun we know things were going down and there's even something said about Shaggai (a major location in Seikyo/Earth that's been mentioned in side mats quite a lot) that also has something going on. Elysia (place, not the chick) seems to be this also but whatever the case, it's just unclear what they truly mean.

Plus even if we took something about "tales" being manifested as drinks as literal, it's not just M and the Tick Tock Man ordering it but so is Sebas M who also isn't universal like Rosenkreuz or even Leo from Valusia.
 
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It's interesting, but not really relevant since Golden King is also in the bar, and doesn't really operate on a universal scale, much less multiversal, though so far only M and Edison have drank those stories, from what I remember.

But anyway, the bar and its drinks haven't been fully explained yet.
I don't think Golden King was in the bar. Last I checked it was more of a hypothetical if he WAS there but eh fair enough. The narration didn't exactly dimiss if he could arrive there.
 
As Qliphoth said even people like Leo, The Omnipotent Man, can go there, Old Ones too

Reality is trivial.
Rather than the smoke of engine exhaustion, I am going beyond the conscious and subconscious, the end of the illusion sadly wiped out by civilization, far beyond Kadath, the abyssal space, to the Far Reaches of Dreams where the gods of madness roam.
To the bar.
The boundary between the conscious and the unconscious. The realm that is Hypnos itself.
It is a dimly lit tavern of pillars.
Essentially, only those who know the secrets of the Collective Unconscious, Alaya Vijnana, can touch this realm with a part of their spirit. The Old Ones may at best be able to do little more than move as shadows, but to the Black King, Elysians, and the like, it was nothing. A man who has reached a certain something can also reach it at the cost of something great.
For example, he can be the Omnipotent man or like me.
In this realm, we can only gather our own subconscious mind. We can't have a firm exchange of information with telegraphic communication, for example, but yes, that's okay.
It doesn't matter.
Oh, I'm going to drift away to the bar in my dream tonight.
The Bar of Dreams. The Baal. It is said to be a combination of the Baal complex and BAR, which was once a vassal of the Black King on this planet, but no visitor believes it.


Oh, I'll head to the bar again today.
People would point at me and laugh. Laugh as I head to a lonely jazz bar tucked away in a basement of a back alley in the Engine City of Seattle City.
People, what are you talking about?
I'm going to the Tavern of the Gods.
I am in awe of the Black King, frightened of the Outer One's presence, trembling at the beauty of Sanido, drinking the alcohol of Hypnos, admiring the Omnipotent Man, and quietly lusting for his eternal servant. I steal a glance at the quiet banquet of the gods and nothing else. Seattle City? What are you talking about? How could this glittering other world not be Elysia? Seattle. What a bad joke.- Shiei no Sona Nyl: Unknown Author Description

As far as we know the Bar is the Collective Unconscious, the realm at the far reaches of dreams, the boundary between conscious and unconscious etc.

There was some other statements about the Collective Unconscious being the synthesis of all dreams/minds, a sea of nearly infinite information etc etc, we can get into Extraordinary Genius intelligence for anyone who can reach the Bar, but it having literally stories is iffy, atm I am just thinking of it as being information, since it's already defined as such, so imo when a person drinks "Gahkthun", they are drinking information about it, not some r>f shenanigans.

But anyway not relevant here.
 
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"what a beautiful series" more like. what a UGLY series. HAH! Take that, STAFF.



EAT MY SHORTS!

- Bart
 
Ok?

Though this series is downright tragic, but I guess it's in the tragedy, that we find the "beauty".

Anyway, off topic, we need the big brains here to figure this out.
 
After reading this, it does make sense that M will be tier 1 given his nature as the Void/Darkness predating existence which contains an infinite number of universes that branches off akin to MWI and him being referred to as beyond eternity and infinity. So at least this would warrant Tier Low 1-C. However, IMO, if the infinitely stacked multilayered universes are hierarchical in nature i.e. a High 1-B structure, then this could possible warrant Tier 1-A given everything is trivial to Edison and by relation, to M also, and how M is beyond both eternity and infinity. Should also mention that the Darkness in the World, which is an essential part of the World along with Time and Space, is a shadow of M's true form.
 
Well, we weren't given anything which indicated that the universes were hierarchy.

As for Edison's nature, Edison ate Yog and has the largest part of AZZT, so can't really scale M to him.

Though even for Edison he trivialize the Underground and its residents, best I could see off that was 4-D.
 
Well, we weren't given anything which indicated that the universes were hierarchy.

As for Edison's nature, Edison ate Yog and has the largest part of AZZT, so can't really scale M to him.

Though even for Edison he trivialize the Underground and its residents, best I could see off that was 4-D.
Wait wait wait, we may not be able to scale M to Edison but given both of their same nature, Edison before Yog-Consumption will still be the same tier as M because alternate counterpart of M. So Edison post Yog absorption should be Tier Low 1-C too, if not higher.
 
Well yea obviously Edison scales to M, and thus would be Low 1-C too, I was just saying the inverse isn't true.

The only evidence for tier 1 comes from M, Edison's feats of trivializing things is in relation to the Underground and its residents, which the Underground is of unknown size.

Though Karashrer gave an interesting statement about Edison finding the laws of it's world to be meaningless, so you maybe argue Edison trvilizes entire universes.
 
As interesting as High 1-B/1-A Steampunk Series would be, it's not gonna work.

The only thing we've gotten from the FVR short story for Sharnoth is the multiverse/universes M devoured were just said to be multi-stacked and multiplying infinitely/indefinitely. Nothing else beyond that which could give us even a vague hint that there's some sort of hierarchy to them.

As for Edison and M scaling to one another, yeah it's moreso for Edison than it is for M the other way around. Kinda weird though with how his Jet Black works and is, but Edison is the only blatant Nyar that outright did anything to Yoggy (i.e having them for chow and taking up their place as all of space-time).

That said, if this does go through (whenever the other staff would come onto here if anything...), then it already just cements Edison as Low 1-C even before he devoured Yog Sothoth and all of that other stuff.
 
There is an interesting statement in Ulthar, will add it to the op when I around my pc.

Black King/M is stated to be a transcendent god from the outer universe.

At this point it's pretty clear the stuff about M is the darkness of the universe, one of the traits along with time and space, is not really limiting. This is true, but it applies to every universe, he is the infinite darkness that exist in all universes, while being transcendent/beyond time and space.
 
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Ah, so that's what you were talking about.

Man, I really don't be looking at the books I look at sometimes xD
 
Well, at least you showed up.

I myself generally don't delve into tier 1, but when you're into a series about Nyarlathotep, and Outer Gods, can't ignore it.

I might have to revisit this again later, if I decide to address Sanido and Azathoth, if this thread is good, they probably are 6-D at least seeing as Azathoth dreamed everything into existence.

But lets ignore all that for now, and focus on Nyarlathotep/M.
 
I'm neutral for now. The new system makes stuff like this a bit hard to discern for me.
 
As far as I know, the new system just affects High 1-B, and higher so has nothing to do with what happens here.

There isn't any r>f argument being made here, only way those come in are with Azathoth dreaming up existence, and maybe Edison who perceives the Underground as being an illusion, fictional?

But this thread isn't about any of those characters, and don't think the new system is even in place yet.
 
Great, making progress.

For a thread like this probably need at least 1 more staff, i assume, so more waiting.
 
Sorry but tier 1 isn't my thing. If majority agree though, I won't argue.
 
Ok, so I was working on a blog, putting this all together and then it occurred to me, Sharnoth is essentially the dark/outer universe which encompasses and is beyond everything, Mary was not only able to navigate within it, despite it being infinite, she was even able to see M, while trapped in her own Sharnoth, these cosmic awareness feats are now going to be Low Complex Multiversal...

Makes sense as the golden Eyes are pieces of Azathoth, but still ridiculous.
 
For more "major/controversial" CRT's, I think it so for what I recall?

It's also not really that big of an upgrade ish per se, much less that only like 5 people at best would be affected and we only got three of them that appeared in person in the whole series thus far.

Maybe more but I assume those others would be more abilities wise and not actual tier wise like M, Edison, and Lily...
 
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I think it's good too.

Finished the blog, now just have to apply it. Will have to rework the Edison profile a little too, that will be the next immediate CRT, need some input on the more obscure abilities he has.
 
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